Virtual Hangout [#62] Q+A with Andrew Holecek - Recorded on 8/5/2021

7:53PM Aug 5, 2021

Speakers:

Andrew Holecek

Keywords:

called

people

meditation

book

question

neuroscientists

agents

ruben

consciousness

retreat

mind

dreams

talk

deep

bit

brain

scientists

tantric

psychedelics

path

Okay, here we go. There we go.

Good okie oh hello everybody welcome back. This is our Thursday question and a question in a q&a Gather we've been doing it for I don't know how many, and now end 60 Some plus 60 plus 50 plus we started as a way to hang out during COVID So what we're changing, just a little bit we're actually asking everybody to do this totally geeky thing and turn your camera, and everybody gets to wave a nice little Hi. So we have a little bit of sangha feeling. Hi everybody, fullness. That was nice to see everybody. Excellent. Jay, cool. Okay, so I just came back from doing my first live event it was a it was a private thing there's a really cool entity. So anyway anyway if you're new here, what I do most of most of the faces that are recognized. If you're new here, what I usually do is, is a tiny little riff on some things, announce some upcoming events and then most of us just discussion and q&a, we can talk about anything you want. So, in terms of the upcoming events tomorrow. I'm interviewing a really wonderful neuroscientists who have been locked in on who's a, he's a poet, he, he, he's just such a hip guy I met him I'm part of a group that meets every month. I was invited to join them last year, it's kind of a study groups going on for 11 years I, they, they invited me in, where scientists, mostly neuroscientists cognitive scientists perceptual scientists in the life some philosophers scholars and then the occasional kind of mystic yogi I guess as me, comes in and so I've met Ruben, in this format. And he's this guy's really brilliant. He's done some incredibly interesting research on meditation. And so in a second, when I say a couple of other intro comments I'm going to talk a little bit about what we're going to talk about because he's a really pretty remarkable so that's going to be a, he's an Amsterdam I'm interviewing him tomorrow. We'll probably post that early next week. And he's going to post in the little chat column we got a couple of fun events coming in Shambhala Mountain Center I just talked to the director about the program had a call with him just this afternoon. I'm doing a week long event there in a couple of weeks, this is a hybrid program so it's both on land and streaming, and so he put the link up to that, it's I'm super excited about this. This is the second in a series that I started two years ago COVID interrupted it, it's a little bit similar as somebody who maybe have attending these with Bob Thornton through Mandla a little bit similar to those but twice as much material a lot deeper a lot more comprehensive. So this is a week long program on the karmic barter becoming doesn't require any pre wax, you can just show up. And so I'm really quite excited about that. And he's also going to put up my Sedona poem which is a new event I haven't done this before. It's kind of a constructive critique of mindfulness, establishing the power of the mindfulness practices. And then introducing so again someone in the spirit of what we do on Monday nights but a lot more depth, and a lot more practices, kind of post mindfulness practices. These are based on the two books I'm writing. First one is done, I just have, I'm pitching it now two different houses. So the two books. This one's called okay I'm mindful now what I personally really liked that title. We'll see if the publishers do exploring the wonders of the mind. So that that book is done in a

kind of a sister volume, which I don't have a title for yet, but basically it unpacks three of the practices that you introduced in the first book practices on open awareness contraction, reverse meditations. And so I'm really into the sort of stuff right now and I'm super excited to share some of this with everybody who wants to come and Sedona Sedona is not a hybrid program it's in person only. And those of you who may have been there, it's a really beautiful place kind of a Taoist retreat center stunningly beautiful smack in the middle of the magic kind of power vortex scene in Sedona, it's really fun, beautiful place so anyway I started to say I just came back from doing my first inperson gig with a really nice entity that is called nine gates mystery school that's been around for over 30 years. And I was originally somewhat reticent when they invited me. Four years ago to start a new whole new branch. Post nine gates mystery school they call the esoteric school, because I'm always a little bit leery of entities that just have too many kind of streams, you know the nine gates basically what they do is they bring in nine different teachers in that level there are only three in the program I did from all you know Christian Cynthia bergeaud You may know her, Krishna mystic Hindu guy Buddhists guy. I mean, Sufi guy. And originally, you know, it's like hey I'm not so sure about this but I met the person who runs it. She reached out to me. I was really impressed. And I figured I'd give it a try. So I tried it four years ago it was really I was super impressed with what she was doing. So I just came back from Tucson. Where was it a chip or 100 and some every, every day, it was hot, but it was I was so excited. Everybody was vaccinated. I was so excited about actually being with real people in a real teaching environment for five days, I had so much fun. So anyway, I'm a jazz because of all that I'm kind of excited. So what I did want to say before I turn to questions and you can ping them in the chat column, you can send them to and we'll put them in the doc I'll read some of the questions that are in the doc. And then, most important, really best for me is just raise your hand and the reaction box will choose you, or pick you unmute and commanding and ask your question live but I wanted to say a little bit about what I'm going to be talking with Ruben on tomorrow, because when I saw his presentation. He is about to publish it in a quite a prestigious journal. Really I think potentially watershed paper scientific paper with another scientist that talks a lot about what's called top down predictive processing it's a technical term for how it is that we bring our history to bear on everything that we don't see things purely that everything is stained by kind of graded levels of obscuration history. And a lot of it is based on prediction the brains best guess theory that we fundamentally, we have no clue what's going on out there. Interestingly enough, this is what I'm going to be talking to Ruben with is fundamentally there's not even an out there out there so we have no idea, ego has no idea what's actually happening. And so through this kind of top down predicting process, the brain in a hierarchical way brings all its predictive apparatus to basically create what other scientists call the brains best guess theory of reality or or perception. And what he talks about is, all these different levels of history that we bring to what arises in the phenomenal world to reality. And then what what after he goes through a very rigorous really comprehensive look at all the science behind these predictive processing layers of the brain.

This by the way, parenthetically is why dreaming is so incredibly cool because usually they talk about top down versus bottom up so bottom up processing actually isn't processing is so much at all is basically what the senses bring in, that's the kind of bottom up, what the world actually arises, called Vasu and. Sounds good. And the top down is what the what the brain brings down on top of the bottom up, to create the collage the version of sensory input, mixed with our expectations hopes, fears histories, you name it to create a version of reality. And so the reason we're bringing him on that and how it connects to dreams is what happens in the dream state is there's no bottom up, it's all top down. In other words, there's no sensory input in the dream. It's just your mind manifesting so basically in the dream state, you can explore the powers of this top down processing. And so we're going to be talking a little bit about that but what Ruben presented in his paper draft a bit to us. He had one slide that just really smacked me. I thought it was so insightful, and some of you may have heard me saying or referring to it he had slideway basically said at the end, resting in the present moment is Annihilation is an astounding statement, and what he then goes to speak and write about, with real elegance is how, when you rest in the present moment through meditation, and this is what he does in his paper he starts, it's just like completely resonant with his book I'm writing the second book on contraction in open awareness, inside of my god movement this is exactly what I'm talking about. So what he does in a three fold manner that is completely resonant with my book. Is he talks about how resting in the present moment through basic Shanita, and then open awareness for passion. And then now, dual resting nature of mind is like Mahamudra junction that we fundamentally have this unbelievable precious opportunity in meditation to deconstruct all this top down predictive processing. So it's a scientific really smart way to talk about what happens in the brain and the perceptual apparatus. When we rest in the present moment. Through meditation, and oh my gosh there's so many applications here but one of the things I'm going to be talking to him because he Ruben doesn't say this in his paper so this is where I'm going to hang this on him tomorrow and see where we can take with it. But one of the really remarkable contemplations like how far this actually goes is that resting in the present moment is annihilation. In my experience, this goes so far that not only can you deconstruct all the history that you bring. I often use this call from James Joyce. History is a nightmare, from which I'm trying to awake. So in this languaging is predictive processing but you know we want the world to arise in a predictable way, that's kind of egos. Default Mode Network and so when it doesn't. When there's dissonance between predictive processing and what's actually happening, that's when things get really really interesting, but very briefly what I'm going to talk to him about one of the many things is that you can rest in the present moment so completely that even the present moment is annihilated. In other words it even the present moment itself is a construct. And so, this is one of the the things that Padmasambhava talked about when, when he mentions what's called the fourth moment, which is beyond past present and future kind of the timeless immortal pre temporal pre spatial experience that is not limited to the constructs of time itself. And so therefore, again using it it you know depending on how deep in the hierarchical structuring these particular processes are embedded, whether it's through shamoto that erases a host deconstructs a host of predicting processes. But that only takes you so far. Then you kind of hand those watching the Olympics last night, a little bit, the baton relay races. The Americans lost the four by 100 Are you kidding me, they got six plates like come on you guys. Shocker, just in case anybody's watching. So the protons handed off from geometer to open awareness, that helps you kind of deconstruct another kind of bandwidth of predictive processing and history. And then that finally hands out the baton even more subtly in the non dual meditations, where you actually start to deconstruct kind of a kind of a flatline baseline presentation that was actually really happening. So I'm very excited to talk about this stuff with Ruben because not only is he a really

clever cognitive neuroscientist, but he's also deep meditator, and these are the people now that that I'm so there's one reason I joined this group, so interested in messengers, is part of the gang, you know, he's one of the world's most esteemed philosophers, and like a 40 year practitioner. And so to me, these are the people that I'm really interested in having dialogue with. Because you know kind of the hardcore philosophers the hardcore scientists, those who aren't interested in anything resembling contemplation, that aren't interested in anything resembling meditation. Honestly, I hate to say it I just get a little bored with their self absorption. And so this is what makes Ruben, and some of these other scientists so incredibly cool to chat with because they have the experience on the cushion, and then they work with it in this really rigorous scientific way and the other thing I'll be talking about with with Reuben, there was a question that came in today, is how do psychedelics work with this. You know what in fact is the role of these agents, I can't tell you how often these questions are coming in these days, Like what what actually is the role of LSD psilocybin Ayahuasca DMT and the like. So, this is not in Rubens paper either but I'm going to talk to him a little bit about this and see where he's going with it. So I just wanted to toss those some things around that topic your way because it's just on my radar, that's what I'll be running with him tomorrow and so the rest of the time is really about you guys, so let me go through some of these questions, some were just submitted today or in or rather quick, some are a little bit more involved but I will answer them all. So here's some of the quick ones so Stephanie, my dear friend you once quoted someone saying, we think we think we see things clearly, but that's because we don't see Yeah, so that's Brian Josephson Stephanie's Brian Josephson he's a physicist, Nobel Prize winner. And what he said was we think that we think clearly. I love this quote, it's just so great. We think that we think clearly. But it's only because we don't think clearly. It's like, it's just like perfect. I love it. And I use it because it's a wonderful segue into the three wisdom tools were thinking only go so far, in a certain point you have to get past thinking, Okay, here's the live chat one. I love these quick ones because they're easy. Do you think you'll do the Sedona meditation program again in the future. I don't know if I'm still alive. Friend, I might be dead by now. I might be dead by this year I might not get there. Hey, you never know, we're all falling. We don't know where we're going to hit the ground right. I could hit the ground before, before I finished this Drake. You never know. So friend if I if I do not hit the ground between now and then, we will probably do this annually, we'll see. I don't know. I love Sedona is one of my favorite retreat centers, it's hard to find. Really nice retreat centers which is why I love SMC that's two hours from me, that's easy. So don't I have to fly to but it's so beautiful that I'm willing to do it. And so we hope to do things there annually, they're really hot retreat centers or if you lose your book spot, you'll never get back in, because they're so coveted these days are hard to grab. And so this is my fifth program down there, and I don't want to release that time because it's great place and I'll lose it. So, I hope the travel restrictions to Europe will be lifted by October and I can make it I hope you can make it to. It's going to be great time, Rollo, anything in Canada, uh, you know, not with COVID happening role, there's still so much uncertainty. And you know the Delta virus, you know about the Delta thing. Listen, take my word on this, it's not going to stop with Delta, it's going to be epsilon or whatever it's just going to keep pinging. These viruses, or they mutate and the more, the less people get vaccinated, the more the thing propagates the more mutations arise delta is not the end, we could go through this whole crap show again and again and again is the is the virus continues to mutate you get these breakthrough infection with the virus, the vaccination doesn't even work anymore, and then have to start the whole thing all over again. So because of that. I'm still not doing anything internationally I had stuff in Korea that was cancelled.

So nothing in Canada, my friends, everything that will be posted that I mean, I'm doing is posted on my website. And if something shows up in Canada, I'll let you know but nothing scheduled Ruben lock in on his last name. Andy, can you pull it up and spell it, I think it's L au k k e n o on. Check out check out his website. This guy's a rockstar. When you know you read his work. I'll see if I can get the paper, once it's published, it's not even published yet. It'll be published in I think September October. I'll see if I'll get permission to post it. This is a really smart guy. Oh Joe's here Joe parent. Hey Joe, yeah they hadn't practiced the relay enough just started two days before, are you kidding me. Two days before I was bombed, I mean, not really. Like many live chat, what's the study group called. Yeah, that's it, they don't have an online presence. It's called con co MDS consciousness non duality and science. In fact, my dear my dear friend yo parent is not in this group, it's it's an in house thing, it's not, it's there's no public platform at all, so it's just, it's kind of a little Think Tank. That is not available to the outside so unfortunately there's no way you can access this, which is too bad. Maybe you know, when I'm there a little bit longer, maybe I can say hey why don't you share some of this wealth because, oh my gosh, I mean we, Tom Metzinger I mean I was blessed to be invited to present. Last month, I don't get nervous. Very often when I present because I do this like constantly but when I'm talking to, like, these really, you know like, elite type people, it was like, I was nervous, it was great, really forced me to be on my game, so that that thing unfortunately is closed. Can you please do a retreat at Chris Wallace's Yeah Chris has actually invited me. I'm thinking about it very seriously Cara. Chris has invited me, I adore his work, He's such a great guy, he's, he and Ben Williams, another dear friend of him and the three of us used to hang out together in Boulder, and Chris has invited Ben and I to both come over and do something with him in Portugal, I'm also have a friend I'm supposed to meet with in Spain. So, maybe, maybe some time with Chris in Portugal because I love this guy so much. Can the Sedona retreat be recorded. Oh, that's an interesting question. Myra, let me think about that. Let me think about that I can't say for sure. So those are easy quick questions that we'll get to some of the, the other ones here. So, always another easy one Hi Andrew greetings from France hi from France. Am I making things up or did you mentioned some time ago that you're working on a book on contraction, yes, yes. In fact, the that was the original book, a book on open awareness contraction and the reverse meditations. And then the other book I realized halfway through this book I had over 140 pages written, and I said you know I need to write a prequel, I need to write a prequel to situate these practices so I dropped that book went back wrote this other one that I, that I finished, just a month ago or so, that's okay I'm mindful of my what so that's now the prequel that has a baby 15 pages on contraction, the book has, like, 70 pages on contraction. It's a it's a this I'm so into this topic, It's actually the basis of sound is connected to a mantra it's connected to vibrations connected to the nature of reality string theory and physics where literally particles are now thought about as literally like music, almost literally vibrations, literally strings. The sponsor Karakas again Chris Wallace wrote on this a lot. One of the main teachings of non dual Shiva Tantra, the doctrine on vibration is all about contraction and expansion. You could do my teachings, the mystical post Kabbalistic Jewish mysticism talks a lot about contraction. There's so much to say on this topic and so yeah, I'm writing two books on it. Okay. You did not make it up, I am writing it, and I'm super excited about it okay so here's Tim. Oh yeah, so this is connected also to the question from, from waken ocean, so I can connect these two. Andrew I wanted to ask you what your current view is on the use of psychedelics on the spiritual journey. They seem to have been of use to a number of spiritual seekers, Others say they should be avoided. It seems that some of the experiences produced by them may be similar to dreams or lucid dreams, yeah. David J. Brown actually writes about this a little bit in this very specific context him in his book,

what's it called, dreaming yourself awake, not something like giving yourself away something like he has a section on on how these agents relate to lucid dreams. Back to you is experience valuable just as experience itself regardless of how it is produced, yes, or is there a difference yes to that to obviously more. It seems that this issue is not very clear with varying opinions president on the subject, what are your thoughts. Yeah, I have some thoughts on this, let me again like I always do. The books that have really influenced me on this have actually made me change my tune on this because I used to be much more conservative. Michael Pollan's really incredibly what a great writer, this guy is right, how to change your mind, that's a really good book, and then Jess is good I think is James Kingsland I interviewed James on, you know, over a year and a half ago. He wrote a marvelous book. Am I dreaming. How, how altered states can reboot the brain consciousness, the new science of consciousness and how altered states can reboot the brain. And so he talks a lot about lucid dreams. That's how he reached out to me initially, and then he has a really couple very interesting chapters on these agents Stan Grof has been working, he's the MD PhD from the Czech Republic, he's been working with this stuff for 60 years, probably even 70 At this point, his landmark work is summarized in a book called The ultimate journey which is how we used decades ago started using LSD, to help people prepare for death. And that's come back and they're using this a lot 16 Minutes did a riff on this like a year and a half ago. How you know interviewing people, they're just terrified of death in a proper setting setting. They have a guided trip and all fear of death is or largely is just removed so there's a lot to say here. These agents have a place they, the question is what is that place, and how do we keep it there, because here's the birth, the blessing and a curse with these agents. The blessing Tam, and also awakened ocean is that these agents can indeed act as a kind of pointing out transmission or pointing in, they're actually, sometimes called entheogens right, the devout Divine within, and so they can actually work to to interrupt some of this top down predictive processing, and allow you to see things in, in a less constructed way so they, they work beautifully that this is why I'm going to talk to Ruben about it. They work beautifully with with deconstruction, and therefore they can actually point out certain aspects of the nature of reality. I'm not so entirely sure about full blown unequivocal Dharmakaya nature mind, I mean I've done acid twice I had I did not have that experience. But I had experiences where I could. I was studying the yoga Chara pretty deeply at the time, super interesting because I could actually watch what I thought was seventh and eighth consciousness is coming back in my life, so it can take you really, really deep, I can't say with authority but I'm not sure it can take you all the way. But what it can do is totally grease the skids and point out dimensions of reality that were previously completely obscured by all these adventitious defilements and top down processing debris. And so here's the way I look at it now I say this with some caution but I reflected on this and it makes a little bit of sense to me that if you look at this very carefully. It's actually could be a form of Tantra. And by this, what I mean is that one of the principal characteristics of Tantra is body is as important as mine so what you do in tantra using subtle body yoga is, and in this respect, really. Dream Yoga is a kind of tantric body because you use the subtle body, to invoke certain correlative qualities of subtle mind. So, every phenomenal experience. It's called neuro phenomenology so every phenomenal experience everything we experience. Until we experience completely formless dimensions which I argue, are no longer

defined by brain processes whatsoever. In fact, as I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, one thing that's actually characteristic of really super deep spiritual experience is not the increase in brain activity, or the reduction of brain activity. Exactly what Reubens talking about hypoxia, you know when you don't have enough oxygen near death experiences, so many really deep mystical so called Breakthrough experiences are brought about when the brain turns off. Not when it turns on. And so the brain is just, you know, it's what creates constructs this version of duality. So the more you can take that puppy offline again this happens in super deep meditation happens in depth. The more you deconstruct the constructed version of duality in reality and so every experience phenomenology has a neural correlate, a brain signature until you get to incredibly super subtle states that don't have brain signatures in my estimation, That's just my view. And so therefore you can use one to work with the other is the bi directional thing so you can use experienced mind to work with body brain, and then you can also use body and brain to work with mine and so the reason this is I cautiously say that this can be viewed as a type of Tantra is body ism is as important as mind, and when you're working with these agents you're working with the neuro chemistry of your brain of consciousness that's working with body that's working with form at the level of neurology the level of neurotransmitters and the way, all these agents actually work. And so therefore I think it does have a place, but it has to be done extremely and so I have to immediately make this, this disclaimer. This is a public venue. These agents are not legal, even though psilocybin is decriminalized here in Colorado, they're still illegal I am not this bold claim, or I'm not I'm not endorsing these agents and telling you to break the law, I am not doing that. I am saying that there is a reason these agents have been used in religious traditions I Alaska peyote day, You know, for millennia. And by the way, the people who discover these plans, they are often asked, Well how do you how do you choose these plans, how do you know, and the shamans, similar to the great ciders who actually hear the sounds of nature, they hear the mantras nature speaks to them in this way. The shamans kind of nature said as they say the plants, talk to them, the plants tell them where to go, so that's how they find these things. And so therefore they have a place but the key is to find that place and keep it there, that they can point out, transmissions, they can reveal certain dimensions state experiences. But the trick is then what do you do with that. What do you do with that, how do you transform a state into a trade, and experience into realization, without becoming a state junkie. That's the shadow side. A lot of people can become state junkies, I just want that high, it's interesting generally mostly these agents are not addictive, in that particular way. But the question is, again, what do you do with it. Well, you know you're not going to like, continue to fry your brain, doing this stuff. For me it's I have to have the state pointed out, then go to the cushion and stabilize it, do meditation.

And there are people now I have actually seen some people doing meditation retreats where they're doing this kind of thing, it's like, Whoa, that is really gutsy stuff, my astronaut. No, no, this is what somebody else is telling me about places now in Costa Rica and others where you can go and do like a week ceremony that includes three or four iOS get trips. I haven't done that yet. Maybe someday we'll see. But the idea is that you have a place. You just have to know what their place is. And so I didn't want to say one thing else. One more thing about this about how this stuff works that, what, what LSD does and has an interest, there's an interesting theory now it's called the Rebus R EB us the Rebus model of psychedelics, relaxed beliefs, under psychedelics, Google it Rebus RDB us relaxed beliefs, under psychedelics. And basically it's just what it sounds like that when you're on these agents, it sometimes they talk about it, topographically it flattens the landscape. It gets rid of all the peaks and valleys of our belief systems, And in a somewhat Aquinas way reducing top down processing, inviting more bottom up processing more contact with senses and stuff. You kind of level the playing field. And so, what it also does therefore is it lowers the barriers that constrain your thoughts, frees the minds to wander more readily. Similar things by the way that also happened in deep meditation so there are some courageous scientists doing these sorts of studies and fMRI is comparing neurological signatures, both with these agents and also with meditators. And so it works to connect different parts of the brain that may have been previously not talking to each other, sometimes even for many, many dozens of years returning you to kind of a childlike wonder his way of relating to the world. And so again this is a really big topic Tim in in Wake and ocean three, three people ask questions similar to this, maybe that's enough on that for now. If you want to come on and talk about this sort of thing, we're happy to do that. Okay, so. Well here's one from Canada, live, it's important that people know that taking psychedelics on our own isn't the same as the guided journey. Good for you 100% Agree. The most important quality and ingredient for a successful trip really is setting setting where you create a mandola in Buddhist language you create a holding environment and psychological language you create a container that actually allows you to work with this agent and anon kind of indulged recreation away, so you're really, you're using it, you're creating the proper environment, where it can be done so I totally agree with you. People don't seem to get the same results in terms of alleviation of depression fear trauma etc Yes, yes, I totally agree with you 100% Okay, from Eric. And then we'll open it up for some live ones. Can you say something about your view on afflictive emotions clay shot and Sanskrit and deep obscurations. Okay, when to bring them other path and when to abandon them or try to counter them as long question I'll read it and then I'll backpedal when to bring them onto the path when to abandon them or when to counter them with antidotes. Both Reggie Ray and such Shri that I have worked with most closely with the past years a big meeting this type of content. Something that does resonate with me but sometimes there's just so very challenging, I'm going through a period right now. When what I think is deep obscuration, maybe even a birth trauma is coloring my experience, and is really hard not to have it affect my practice than listening to a Buddhist nun reading texts, the purpose of Baba Longchamps. YouTube, go YouTube. And in there, I came across a verse that went along these lines, something like memory for my memory should the yogi bring afflictive emotions onto the path. Yes, that should be done but it's very difficult. so therefore, it is best to renounce and abandon them stay in a mountain retreat and avoid worldly people. Good luck with that. Okay, okay, what are your thoughts personal experiences, whatever you feel like sharing, I thought about this a lot, Eric, mostly because I'm so riddled with afflictive emotions. I'm going to refer you, I'll talk about this but I'm going to refer you in my first book I wrote a chapter in my book power and pain part three.

I wrote an entire chapter on this. I think it's entitled something like the before arts of working with emotional upheaval. And so this is exactly in resonance with what you're asking. So maybe if you had that book look at it if not you might want to look at it. The arts are an acronym for the four ways this is my languaging and my approach, based on my understanding of, especially Tibetan contract virginiana Buddhism. The AR T S stands for abandon it remedy it transform it self liberated. And so what it is is it's a more refined exploration of these four classic ways that are correlative, by the way to the three Yana is actually the fourth, even for Yamas in Tibetan Buddhism, to work with these And fundamentally, this is super important, my friends, because, you know, especially in luxury Yana. These types of afflictive emotions and obscurations. They don't obstruct the path, my friend. They are the path. Let me say that again. They don't obstruct the path. They are the path. And so bringing them onto the path is enormous, and it's not easy. And so what I do with my little riff on this which I'll summarize here is, depending on how sophisticated you are with working with your mind and heart, and your emotional energies. And depending on how much of a head of steam, how much momentum how much force these emotional upheavals have that will dictate which type of remedy you use. So if you, let's start with the top if you have a very refined sense sensitive relationship to the contents of your experience, you do the Sahaja Yoga itself liberation. This is the highest form. This is the campfire dissolving into a harmless, you know, harmlessly dissolving into the nighttime sky. You recognize the energetic display so quickly, it doesn't take off that the minute it arises the energy is still there, but because there's so much space, and so much awareness. It harmlessly dissolves, like a campfire spark in the nighttime sky, instead of liberates doesn't leave a trace, nor camera left it adjust then becomes really the shine and ornament and the play in the mind. That's the highest form of self liberation and the way they sit is, I argue that's the way they actually work, you know they're the play of the mind is still there, but the relationship is radically transformed there's so much space in that kind of mind so much light so much awareness that when that energetic arises it just immediately self liberates. If you can't do that. And most of us can't but with training, we can then usually what happens is, again, that campfire spark does not involve dissolve harmlessly into nighttime sky blue, it lands in a vat of gasoline, right, welcome to my mind right instead of self liberating it lands and CO whoosh There you go poncha proliferation. And that's where we live our chaotic conflicted emotional lives and honestly a lot of people love it. Let me say this again. A lot of people love the dramas, the drama kings and the drama queens, there's a one study showed is a very famous study that given the choice of being with the contents of your mind, or shocking yourself. Most people elected to shock themselves, really. And not surprisingly more men than women. One guy was like he just he just couldn't be with the contents of his mind. I don't remember what the numbers were like 4040 times a minute or something he was like he was I would rather torture myself. Something bad is better than nothing, or something bad is better than dealing with this display.

I thought it was like sadly hysterical, Like, are you kidding me, read the paper, it's like totally June so some people love this stuff. They pay for it. You know people don't watch our movies, they don't want to watch paint dry, we pay to be entertained, more drama, more conflicting emotion more. I mean, you know the soap operas whatever ego loves that stuff we pay for it, it's a multi billion dollar success industry, right. We pay for it. Well we pay for with our lives too right so get a little bit of head of steam then celebration doesn't work anymore. It's too subtle. Then you can next that would be the tantric methods of transformation, then, the greater the poison, the greater the potential medicine and so there you need the skill sets you need that the tantric alchemical tools to aid that transformation way beyond what I can talk about here. That's where that skill set of the contract comes in. If that doesn't work then you have the whole antidote antidote, approach the remedy approach for the Mahayana very powerful, the low John slogans and all the very powerful ways to actually bring antidotes, different from transformation. And then lastly, you have the abandoned, and that means either abandoning it like turning yourself into a log. How many children when said this you know when all else fails just visualize yourself as a stump. Right. Just do something, don't move don't act just trees. I like the directions on that and so the abandoned and get here, this ties into and again I'd love to hear if this doesn't sound like long champion Thomas Ababa to me, because this is like anti Contra, what they're saying here, they're saying, This is a terabyte, again I'm not criticizing this has a place. But it doesn't bother Monsanto we're sitting at my house it is so this is a little surprising that they would say that because what they're talking about here stay in mountain retreat and avoid. That's the grossest form of working with it that's the abandonment avoidance approach. So why would what tantric sitters say that that, that to me is like kind of a last resort, it doesn't, I don't I'm not challenging it but that makes sense to me. So my friend, working with this stuff is super important. I also recommend, you know, to me, and on this level because this is such a deep, super rich topic. I also bring in the western psychological approaches here, and there's some very, very sensitive writers along these lines, John Wellwood his many books when it comes to relationship issues, journey of a heart, perfect Love and perfect relationship, absolute gold standards around this stuff. He is a student of Trump Burbage a deeply involved with Buddhism and deeply, you know, psychiatry, psychologist, his, his work on relationships. Brilliant. The other one I refer all the time my dear friend Bruce TIFF, have already free. But as a means to psychotherapy on the path of liberation, really good book. So Eric, because the topic is just so colossal I mean literally entire books ever written, have been written on it and continue to be so that's all I'm gonna say on it for now. And I want to open it up to some of the live questioners who have been waiting patiently, good stuff today. There's a couple more written ones I'll get to them but let's turn to some of the live one. Sure, we'll bring on prem das first and then myRA.

Andrew Yes sir. Really, I'm really glad you went into that AR TS because I kind of had some vague notions about that but that was very helpful. Thank you. My question is, you've studied, you know, The Eastern, or the Buddhist model the Chitta Mothra model of mind, as well as all your extensive study and dialogues with Western neuroscientists. So, has, has the Western neuroscience. Frank strengthened or confirmed in your mind, the CIT the Matera model of the eight consciousnesses that that model, or, as, as the Western insights of neuroscience, sort of taking unit in a different direction or is there some limitations of the eight consciousness.

Well I wouldn't say there's limitations but there aren't there aren't that many scientists in the West that they're really engaged in overt exploration of the A consciousnesses, I mean it's implied. When you look at some of the stuff I've been talking about. You could actually talk about this kind of top down processing being kind of a flowering of the eight of all the materials stored in the eight consciousness. So Most neuroscientists don't use that type of languaging.

Can I Can I just turn up. I like suddenly Western neuroscientists wouldn't use that language and probably aren't even familiar with that model, but you're in a unique position where you've studied both right. Yeah, so So that's that. So I'm asking your opinion. Oh

I see, okay, yes well in that regard, yes, then I would say there are definite correlations, I would, because again, both disciplines are talking about the dimensions and structure of mind, right yogacharya are doing it from a first person phenomenological approach, you know, there there. It's called Yoga Chara because it's derived from yoga, those insights are derived from first person phenomenological exploration ie meditation. The scientists do the complete other end, right, so they explore it from the neuro ends. And it's only really because as you know, for the last 30 years they've, they've gotten some super interesting data from these meditators that they now start to become interested in like what's happening in the minds of these Olympians these mental Olympians. And so, yeah, so I, I do delight in dancing the neuro phenomenological thing, Francesco burello is one of the first people to do it then his whole kind of almost a lineage that he's created of contemplative neuroscientists, I do think that there's a tremendous amount of correlation, and I think I learn a lot from these people so like the ones again that I really pay attention to are the ones who do a little bit of the phenomenological and personally, in other words like Ruben and Tom and some of these other people who put who put their money where their mouth is and get on the cushion and actually explore some of these things Richie Davidson and Juan lots I mean there's a handful now growing, growing, Ella Wallace coined the term contemplative scientists who are actually engaging in the practices themselves. The standard hard core phenomenon of neuroscientists generally, now they don't really go here because for them, you know, they're so reductionistic or so hardcore that brain, mind equals brain dumb deal closed door I don't even talk to you if you think other than that, I'm not interested in talking to them, I mean that's that's that's just hubris that's just a myopic way of looking at things, but generally, I do think that more and more, especially these younger generation neuroscientists, there's a bunch of them, we have a bunch of them and this group is so cool. And that's what I do, that's what, that's why I get excited because I can come in I'm invited and I'm not a scientist but I can speak their language, a little bit so I can come in and say hey, try this, do this, and and you know, I get some really delightful positive feedback from that sort of thing so I'm really encouraged about it. And I think we're gonna see more and more of this type of thing because, again, what do they say this, this classic line. Science proceeds progresses funeral by funeral. I love that line, so does politics right science progressed it's funeral by funeral. I mean, some of these people are so ensconced they're so attached to their views. I heard one scientists that and this is no kidding you, he said literally he said, I wouldn't believe this, even if it was true. I mean, that's how they seem to be open minded, they're not open minded. A lot of them there's observational bias confirmation bias so many places where they go astray and so as the funerals continue to progress, and the younger generation continues to come up and fill their shoes, these millennials and whatnot, they're much more interested and in actually participating in this dialogue and engaging in it. And so I'm actually very optimistic. I I chat a lot with these people now, and I get excited about it this younger generation is really exciting. So anything else along that line, I'm not sure I'm totally answering your question but

I wanted to kind of focus on on your personal opinion whether the science that you've studied validated the eight consciousness model. Well, again

it does it doesn't do so articulately because they don't, they don't have that kind of correspondence, but as a general, as a general fingerpainting, yes. Okay, that's that's why the general fingerpainting absolutely positively starting with Bruce Lipton I've been siding with so many of them I could name 30 of them. Yes, generally speaking, I would say Correct. Okay.

And then one quick follow up question on the seventh consciousness. The afflictive, you know clicks too much pleasure. What. When one enters the path of seeing

what happens to that seventh consciousness transformed into the wisdom of equality. It's just not stable. So, this is about open awareness leads you to so each one of the a consciousness has returned garbage a on this, and also Carl Barone holtsville, each one of the five of the a consciousness is transformed into the five wisdoms. And so even if it's at the path of saying, it's not stable but it's legit. The seven consciousness transforms into the wisdom of equality, doesn't last but it, it transforms. Okay, thank you. Yeah, you bet. Cool, okay my Rob fire away. If you're still

listening my phone. I guess I was in the same wavelength, I was reading your power of pain. Group, and I think that is the mass reading next, I think we're still stuck trying to get a formula I am, I'm talking for myself, it's my own production too. We like formulas we want. I like lists I like formulas or mantras or instructions. However, with everything that you say it's my impression that we are just keep chiseling you know from this corner of that corner. Depending of our propensity so the way that we learn, buddy, we do not face that book when you put it, it's just almost like we're still just in philosophy from a different perspective from a spiritual perspective. And, and I just everybody listening, I just been just delighted to read it again, and after listening to you for all these classes everything makes sense in a different way. Because I, and another thing the other day I realized we still are looking for that emotion or that the skies are open or we're going to see the bush studies burning but we have not slow down to recognize what we see every day. And just to finish with what I'm saying I suggest that book, a Joe had the most beautiful meditation in in a seems to me that I had to listen back to notice that he pointed out to the true meditation, and he went by, so at the end of the meditation after 30 So many minutes have struck short and hold and open and the eyes thing. Then he said, our T shirts show you and Trump said that at the end when you let go, that is the real meditation. And then he went into somebody something else and we began to ask questions about technique, and we missed the lesson, or at least I did at first. So how do we go about just, can you just do that one book.

Can I just read it. Oh, you mean like in the book study group you mean, yeah. Oh yeah, totally. We'll get to it. Yeah, thank you. You're so kind. Thank you for bringing the your you know your endorsements very kind. I mean I pretty much agree with everything you've said. And so, I'm just not entirely sure the question that you're leaving me with is how to say it again or say it,

how I sometimes I feel like this thing that we do where it's so important to have this soundboard and the kindness of your offering of your time to answer questions from all different ways. And, but I think sometimes we, how do we get into slowing down to get that recognition I

guess oh yeah well you know. Yeah. Yeah, great question. Well, it comes back to something I get pinged on just a little bit earlier, is understanding their two, three part on ramps to this. I talked about these a lot because of the importance of exploring these first of course, is this tripartite tri partite educational pedagogical approach right, The three wisdom tools, three pregnancies right hearing consultation meditatively to share that in itself it's it's not just a Buddhist, by the way, you'll find it in the Indic Traditions you'll find it in Kashmir Shaivism, three pillars of Atlanta. This is a classic deep spiritual pedagogical approach that hearing, I'm sorry. Yes, hearing and contemplating you're working with conceptual mind you're working with thoughts you're working with mental content, but it only takes you so far, because, fundamentally, that's what makes what we're doing here, different from philosophy and science, you know, fundamentally, we want to become Yogi's and yoginis when we can have what's called Yoga direct valid cognition, not direct or inferential but we see directly with a meditative eye exactly what the yoga Chara masters did remember derived from yoga Chara with you'll get direct valid cognition, they see what the heart mind for themselves, that this is in fact the way it is and so we have to really deeply get that into our heart into our bones if that's the, that's the only way you can't think your way into this, you just can't. How does the thing thinking based on thought a thing based process, wrap itself around something that's a no thingness it's like, again, the master of the one minor temperament J ego can't attend its own funeral. It just doesn't work. Usually excusive and so that also then joins in with the other three part approach which is hearing contemplating meditating leads to understanding experience realization. So understanding is is a result of hearing and contemplating. Oh I get it I understand I got it. I understand. Well, but now you have to stand under to really play with that word, you have to stand under that understanding, and that's direct experience related to premises question that's the path of saying, that's when you see for the first time, that's incredibly important, then you you have this glimpse that also ties earlier to the discussion on psychedelics. It's experience but it's not realization, it's a state, it's not a trait, it's not stable. So then through the process of familiarity, the fourth path of meditation, then you you transform the state into a trade. At that point, when that's completed, that's called the path of no more learning that's Buddhahood. So you weren't you have to really, I say this at the introduction to every single program I teach are done because this is so important. This is what separates us from philosophers. This is what makes what we're doing here are different from any other approach where yeah we flap our lips we blah blah blah. But at a certain point that only goes so far, you know, I mean, my friend David Lloyd says something about it. He paraphrased it this way where he said, paraphrasing and he said philosophy arose fundamentally as a way to solve the problems of duality. Well, if you solve the problem of duality, you don't need philosophy. You don't need any of this stuff, you don't need any of it but until then, we do the hearing contemplating meditating, that leads to understanding experience and realization, and if not really the entire path can be kind of mapped under these rubric so to speak. So, something like that, super good question, really important. Okay. Yes, thanks. So, if we have another library deadline, maybe there's a couple that came in from Shantelle I feel the ability to self liberate and to create that space is through meditation there you go absolutely can't do it any other way.

I say that because my going out to practice is helping me not be affected by events that would normally get me hooked. I can't say it any better than that. Bingo. I just agree with you 100% role. Strange question connected to the brain activity topic I love thinking of dying. I do too. We're both pretty sick people then roll. I reflect on it. I mean, this is, this is a form of thinking that is incredible is called a supreme contemplation, right, of all the footprints the footprint of the elephant is the deepest and most supreme of all contemplations that contemplation on impermanence and death is the deepest and most supreme. So you're thinking like the Buddha, wrote well this is what that I think I still have it behind me I did, I did a talk for embody philosophy I'm starting a class with them in two weeks we did a free talk yesterday, you can still get it. If you go to the body philosophy, it's a freebie. It's an intro course, a new week a four week thing on Tibet Book of the Dead for them. And so I mentioned last night when I was introducing the course. The first few open talk. This is in fact roll what led to the Buddha's enlightenment, he stopped, he started at the end up here the wheel of life. He started with death and the type of 12 Step detox process, or using Reubens language deconstruction process annihilation process of all this predictive processing. He worked his way back to reality. So, this is worth a little pain here all because thinking about dying. If you do it properly, will lead to your awakening, it led to the Buddha's awakening. Oh, look what you say here, wakes me up and it gives me energy see you're just like the Buddha, which I find energizing for the day but sometimes if I think about dying before bed. It activates my brain and wakes me up to the point that sometimes it's hard to fall asleep, so don't do that. Is that common. I don't know Ro I don't know. I can't answer that. What is common, is if you do something that activates things that's common definitely will be harder to fall asleep. I can't answer the question of reflecting on death and dying. That's pretty uncommon to begin with. Is that how someone going to prevent you from falling asleep I can't answer that I don't know. I'm probably just a state junkie we all are. How could I use that energy in a useful way to have light dreams. Uh, well, when you say light dreams do you just mean lighter dreams are dreams of light, like lucid dreams. You could always harness that energy I mean that's the tantric thing right transforming that energy, that would require some real back and forth in terms of actually harnessing that for purposes of lucidity and so, because that's probably a little bit more than what I can do in this format. If With your permission I might let that part go. But bottom line is great contemplation keep doing it. If you have a hard time doing that when you fall asleep just don't do it. Or if you have an opportunity where we can chat more, and you can explore transforming that energy harnessing yet, it's a type of wind horse rising energy. Want to ride that energy into lucidity, there are ways to do that, but that's a little bit more than we can talk about right now. Okay, from Barry Oh my dear friend Barry always so nice to hear from you, not wanting to go to whoo, whoo, hey why not I mean, we're pretty woowoo here right Why stop now. But have you seen Close Encounters of a fifth kind on Amazon Prime, no I haven't. That's direct contact with people out there, And some interesting evidence and techniques involving consciousness and meditation I thought it was really interesting. Oh, I love these recommendations I have not seen it, it sounds like it's in line with what. Now the new lingo is called EXO studies. And I actually hope to interview a pretty big thinker along these lines coming up, but I have not heard of that Barry I will check it out. Thank you. Is there a link to the recording from yesterday that you can give us. Ah, I can't, I don't know what it is, it's I have two computers open, and I don't know where to pull it but you can find it, you just go to embodied philosophy you can find us. Just go to embodied philosophy. And we just did it last night, it's going to be live for 48 hours. If you find it there you'll, you just paying it, it'll be there, guaranteed. I don't have a link for it. Sorry, but it's there. Hey, Barry just posted it in the good old Andy, he does everything. Anybody else are we good for today, gosh, it was fun to be back with you guys. Joe, do you have anything to say or let me ping through these comments,

my dear friend Joe if he has anything to say there's always, always most welcome. Oh cool, I'm just going through the chat room thing just to see if anything comes up.

Yeah, okay, I think we got most of this.

There are a few new ones if you want me to add them to the,

to the document oh wait a second, then you take, I didn't bring my phone here I want to write this, Andy, say the chat room just tested sent me thing, something here yeah test. I am interested, she's going to help me find an agent. So yes, so if you can hold us I will email her and she can help me with that that's really great so I don't have my usually take a photo, I do. Hold on.

It's such a crack up right I mean it's just like ridiculous it's so sad. Okay, so I got, I literally I have two computers open. I've got one over here that is relegated I can't open it. I've got my, my so called smartphone, I've got my Apple watch. It's like I'm so hooked up it's like ridiculous here so, but sometimes this stuff comes in handy so I'm going to take her address here. Thank you for that kind offering that's very see I'm trying to find. I don't need to worry about that. Okay so psychedelics integration is the key. You yeah some of these comments on the chat column. If you haven't read them, we're really good integration is the key integration and this languaging is transforming states into traits, literally, in body meant in corporation right incorporation is integration, working it down wicking it down into your Soma, so that is totally spot on. Okay. Other than that I think we're good.

I added a to last comments if you want to check him out into the document. Okay.

Well, there they are carrying on Eric Yeah, we'll call it for today cuz I have another call coming in. Cool, okay. Karen My dreams have a voiceover. Well, a voice over captions. Oh my god, this is interesting. My dreams have a voice over caption summary happening, that seems to come from the self, it's a wisdom. I'm presently in individuation intensive with a union psychologist, Good for you. Since I heard you say consciousness is a continuum from deep sleep to Dream Yoga to lucid dreaming to everyday wake to enlightenment. I have been remembering several dreams every night. Awesome Karen keep it up. Keep it up. As you start to work more and more with awareness lucidity principle, you will start to affect you, you will remember more dreams you'll have more lucid dreams lighter dreams, eventually. Yeah, all I can say is fantastic, good for you, lovely to hear from Eric again I think the verse was pointing. Oh this is long chapter apartments above I think the verses pointing to the importance of staying in retreat until required stabilized, which makes sense just speculating, unfortunately I can't remember which recording context I heard the statement and well even there, Eric, you're going to be in retreat for a long time until rigpa is stabilized so here's the deal with is my friend and these are good comments. It takes a long time to stabilize report right. So, yes, there's tremendous power to retreat, absolutely, positively. I'm a retreat junkie right. But in this day and age, really, it's mixing retreat with life and so my riff on this is just work with both go into retreat, stabilize enhance and step back into the world into the marketplace, so to speak, see how stable things are, how you can hold your seat, because, Fundamentally, the retreat becomes a near enemy, you want to be equipped with a skill set, Eric. And that's what the tantric methods are really designed to do, where you can enter lifetime retreat in the midst of daily life, you don't have to go into retreat anymore. That's the fruition, where, where you can actually bring the retreat mind with you. So, practically speaking, my friend, I would do both. The Retreat thing is super helpful to reconnect to restabilized to kind of recenter, but don't. And again, there's no enemies everywhere if you spend too much time in retreat that can become a very subtle, or not so sort of a form of spiritual bypassing, you know, I'm just going to hang out here in my stabilized little Samadhi. That's the trap of the jhana states and the Samadhi states and absorption states, and so on fundamentally rigpa you know rigpa is not complete as the Dharmakaya until it's integrated this ties into so many narratives of today. Until that kind of waking up is balanced with with with waking down. It's not awake until the Tocai is actualized not just Dharmakaya. And so usually reports associated with Dharmakaya complete rainbows associated with the Trakia, which means you have to bring it into any circumstance into any form into any body into any manifestation. So I would work with both, because if you just kind of, especially in this day and age paying off into retreat. Take a look that can really just be a very subtle form of spiritual bypassing, so I would work with Bill it's from Jared last one and then we'll end it for today. I had this dream where I was taught an invisibility spell called Knight, stepping, where you picture rainbow like on the soles of your feet. That's pretty cool, would be pretty cool if this exists somewhere haha Has anyone heard something similar. No, Jared, I have not, but I have heard of something slightly connected and in a totally different. Different tractors was called in check out this name. This comes from the tradition I am not making this up. It's called subterranean Samadhi. What a hoot right subterranean Samadhi. And what you do with this what you do with this practice is you visualize black pearls at the soles of your feet, as a way to pull the winds and the energy down so like a little bit earlier. I can't remember who asked the question about

death and dying. I guess it was roll right not being able to fall asleep. You can rule one technique is you can engage in the subterranean Samadhi where, where you visualize the little black pearls on the bottom of your feet, is a way to draw the winds, it's called a straight path to the middle. The winds are too high here, you bring your mind really low, that kind of draws them down to the heart center. But Jared, maybe you can start your own lineage and tradition here at the rainbow light on the soles of your feet, tradition. I love playing with you guys, but hey, why not, you know I like it's got kind of a nice ring right a little bit wordy but not so bad. The rainbow light on the soles of your feet, tradition I belong to that school. You never know my friend really it could be onto something, I have not heard of that, I hope so. Okay, if I give you a little jab. If we can't be humorous with each other, what's the point right. But hey everybody really nice to see you again. Let's do this totally geeky thing where now not only do we turn all our cameras on. We briefly turn off our mic.

Hi. It sounds like my mind. Thanks to Andrew. Hey, Andy. Show.