It's great to have you here. And you've got such a unique story. I feel like you've kind of seen it all and been through it all. You've been through a traditional search with investors, you've been through a self funded search with no investors, you've searched for the partner, you've searched solo, you've had a deal blow up at the last possible instant, through no fault of your own. And ultimately, you've successfully acquired a company and have gone on to great success as an entrepreneur and as a CEO. So before we dive into the lessons that you've extracted from, you know, the the multitude of experiences that you've had, maybe you could walk us through the chronology of your story, and just help us understand the challenges, the hurdles and the obstacles that you overcame?
Sure, yeah, we have to, I've actually had a few deals blow up spectacularly along the way, it wasn't just the one. So I originally learned about the search world in about 2013. So I had just graduated from business school, but we actually weren't taught the search model at that time. And we were based in Toronto, and in the Canadian search community was still pretty nascent at that point. And so I was educated about the model through another Canadian searcher, and he was looking to find a partner, and he kind of got me onto it. And I really took the idea, I thought was just an awesome, you know, awesome idea. So then I started to look around 2013, to raise a search fund with a partner, with a guy that I knew from business school.
And in Canada at the time, it was interesting, because when we were going to fundraise, not a lot of investors or Canadian investors had heard about what a search fund was. So when we're trying to fundraise, we'd have to educate them on kind of sell them on the asset class, and then also sell them on us. So we struggled with that admittedly, so we quickly turned towards the, you know, the search fund investors in the US and we raised a search in I think it was 2013 2014 range. So the two of us, so we are funded, we had kind of traditional search, fund investors, and off we went. So what happened there was we went our full two years, and we did have, you know, one deal really blow up spectacularly at the end of our fund. And it was a deal in the US as a health care deal.
And we were really far along meaning we just had, my daughter was just born at that time, I had a two year old son. And so we were kind of sorted out all the nurseries and schooling and housing and all that other stuff. And then that deal died right at the finish line. And that was obviously really tough. Because we were out of money. We were, you know, pretty emotionally exhausted by that point. I think we'd spent like 9, 10 months on diligence far too long. And so we were licking our wounds and trying to figure out what to do. And one of our investors that we really respected said, hey, look, guys, why don't you extend this year? Why don't you go another year, re-raise a bit of money, you've got a lot of momentum, you've got a lot of knowledge. And so we did that.
So we re-raised, we kind of, you know, licked our wounds, went back into the search world, we found another great deal. And we spent another, you know, too long on that deal. And that deal blew up right at the finish line as well. And thought, oh, man, you know, this is not great. And so we decided, again, that we were going to hang it up. And that owner that walked away, actually called us back and said, Hey, guys, I'll actually fund the rest of your diligence costs, if we can just get this to the finish line, we got so close, I'll actually pay your diligence costs, because we were completely out of money. Like I think at that point, we were six, seven months, though, to salary even. And then we did that, and then he walked away again.
So it was just blow after blow after blow. One of our investors who used to love using sports analogies. He said, that's the most number of at bats with the most number of foul tips before striking out that I've ever seen in my life. And so, it was a rough experience. And so at that point, we're probably into 2017. You know, we'd searched for probably three and a half years at that point, and was trying to figure out what to do next. And, you know, a few months later by an incredible stroke of good luck. I was introduced by my former CEO to a couple of guys that were looking to looking to exit their business. It wasn't a traditional search fund business I will say, it didn't have a lot of the kind of characteristics of a traditional search deal.
It's also a little bit smaller. But I was very fortunate to get that deal done really quickly. So 2018 We bought two businesses in the in the HVAC sector in Canada. One was a distribution distribution company of HVAC equipment, and the other business was just sort of a sister company that did service of HVAC equipment. And we've been running. I've been running those since 2018. And it's been really great. It's been a great ride. So, you know, as you say, I've seen kind of all aspects of it, and it hasn't been boring. I'll tell you that much.
That's putting it lightly. So, you know, before we get into some of the broad, generalizable lessons that you extracted from those experiences, I have a couple follow up questions based on your specifically what you just shared with us. And where I want to start is actually on the personal side. Because so many people listening to this, they've had deals blow up at the last second, or, you know, they're 18 months into the search and their fear of failure is high, they feel as if there's a reasonable probability that 24 months will expire, without them having completed an acquisition. As you dealt with all of these obstacles and hurdles, can you just walk us through, like how you were feeling personally, during these setbacks? What was the self talk that you were having with yourself both positive and negative? And then maybe, how did you emerge from these darker personal places that you might have found yourself in?
Yeah, great question. And yeah, I really was pretty beat up. And like, I felt really kind of intimidated, or just humbled to be in the community, right, like, there was just a whole bunch of really successful, really smart folks that kind of invested in myself and my business partner and believed in us. So I really didn't want to let these guys down. We're very committed to getting a deal done, you know, you also often are raising money from friends or family of folks that you have a personal kind of commitment to so, you know. I was, you know, I definitely felt a ton of pressure to get a good outcome for for those folks, and not just myself. So we were really, you know, very, very committed to doing it. And then when we failed to reach our objective, you know, again, not once, but many times, it was really tough, you know, I felt really like my career was over.
And that these relationships that I spent three years cultivating, were going to evaporate overnight and that, you know, folks are going to be disappointed in us. And none of those things were true. But at the time, I definitely, you know, it was, I took it very personally, and I think a lot of folks that wind up search funds, it's often your first big failure, you know, if you want to think about it that way. You've probably gone to a great business school, and you achieved a lot of career success before the search fund. So I think for a lot of people, it's the first big objective failure. And I use that in air quotes, because, you know, it's certainly not a failure. But that's how I felt at the time anyhow, was I was letting a lot of folks down.
Did you utilize any tools or strategies or tactics or rituals or anything like that, to kind of help dust yourself off and emerge from these more difficult times? Or was it something as simple as like, you know, letting time heal those wounds?
Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. So one thing I did was, you know, we obviously, we actually got a lot of great support from our investor community after we wound down, we had a really great investor group, everyone was very supportive of us. Kind of saying, like, Listen, you know, we know you did a good job, but we're also, you know, this relationship hasn't evaporated, we're here for you, if you ever want to do a deal down the road, and, you know, we're happy to remain in touch. But one other thing I did is I started to look for other folks that had, that had sort of, not succeeded in purchasing a business. And it was a little bit hard to find them. But I started speaking to guys that had been in my position before and one thing I realized was that this was like an incredibly successful and impressive group of guys.
And had gone on to do some pretty amazing things. And so, you know, they kind of said is, you know, when one door closes, another one opens up, you've been very, very focused on this one objective, and that didn't work. But there are other opportunities once you avail yourself to them. And so that helps seeing the success of other searchers. And I can say now from experience that, you know, sometimes not getting what you want is a wonderful stroke of luck. And it turned out to be an amazing thing for me, and I think for a lot of these other folks, that, you know, you never really know how it's going to work. And there there are, you know, there are lots of other opportunities out there.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And again, apologies for hijacking our discussion to a certain extent. But before we get into some of the broad generalizable lessons, I want to ask one more question because you had two deals blow up on you at at in more or less the ninth inning, and you had one seller kind of blow up on you twice. In retrospect, and of course, this is only clear with retrospect, it would be very, very difficult to understand this in real time. But in retrospect, were there any signs that you now understand were signs of the seller having cold feet? Or the deal kind of losing momentum, either due to the passage of time or some other factor? Like, is there anything that kind of seems obvious in retrospect, that just wasn't obvious to you at the time?
Yeah, you know, I think it's another good question. And the search fund is a bit unique, right? Because you have so much riding on it, especially as you laid in the search. And so we were reminded many times by our investor group that, hey, you guys, you're just not objective, you might think you're objective, but there's a lot of kind of, perhaps emotion behind some of these things. And I think in both of our cases, our diligence, went on a really long time. And there was a lot of twists and turns of the deals and, you know, reshaping the deal, renegotiating the deal. I think, you know, every deal does have a season and that deal, fatigue is real. And I could see that the relationship between us and the potential seller was starting to, you know, to get worse over time.
And the thing is, once you acquire, and as I found out, as well, once you know, once you acquire, you're, all of a sudden, you're on the same side of the table with that seller, and sometimes you really need that seller to perform and to have a strong relationship with them. So that's one lesson, I think that, you know, that I learned is that, as these, you know, as diligence goes into. And I don't know what the number is, but for us, it was, you know, nine months plus and many, many iterations of a deal that I think that's certainly a red flag that the there might be this thing might not actually reach the finish line.
Yeah, I learned a similar lesson in my own search, with respect to objectivity. And more specifically, the importance to me of getting investors involved early. Early enough, and because despite, as you correctly point out, in spite of your best efforts, it's borderline impossible to maintain objectivity as the searcher who's an inch off the ground. Investors tend to be at a at a higher level of can just kind of see things that you can't, and in fact, shouldn't necessarily be expected to see. And I learned that the hard way myself through spending, you know, a handful of months with a seller and on a specific opportunity, I wrote a 20 page memo to my investors only to have them very politely and very diplomatically tell me, Steve, you're crazy, don't spend another second on this. And I feel like I would have come to the same outcome. If I spent a week with the seller and wrote a two page memo as opposed to wasting, you know, 3, 4, 5, 6 weeks in the way that I did.
No, 100% and, you know, you get you get, you know, as time goes on, you get more entrenched as well, right? Because you have all of these additional costs, legal and accounting and everything else, and you start to get really excited about a deal. And the other unique thing again, here is you're potentially moving your whole family to that location. So then, your wife is involved in you know, your kids are involved, and it's just a becomes a pretty emotional thing. It's hard not to let that happen. Those are all realities for the searcher. It's a pretty big deal. It's hard to remain objective.
I just keep coming up with new questions before we actually get into the meat and potatoes of this discussion. But I have to ask this, because you mentioned your spouse, and you know, I've talked many times about how the spouse is very much in the front seat of this entire journey. I mean, you had to manage your own emotions, which was is hard enough to put it lightly. But I found that the ups and downs of the surge, I also had to play some sort of role in managing my spouse's emotions. And she had to do so as well. And this was reasonably unfamiliar territory for her. Can you maybe just speak to the spousal aspect of this and the journey that she went through, and if you learned any lessons in kind of sitting beside your spouse as she navigated the ups and downs of this turbulent journey?
Yeah, man, great question. And I think that the single best decision most people make is choosing a spouse. I think it certainly plays here because, you know, for me, we actually we had two children during the search. So, I had a baby and a two year old and I'm basically telling My wife, you know, hey, honey, this week, we're moving to Phoenix. And then the next week, actually, no, it's Seattle now and no, sorry, it's Vancouver, you know. And she is working, and she has a career and, you know, these are not things that she's able to deal with super easily. It takes a lot of planning. And it's so yeah, I mean, it's a super, super difficult thing, I think, to navigate for the spouse.
And you just really need to have somebody that's on board with that process, and what that might look like, and somebody who's up for a little bit of adventure. But yeah, I certainly have to hand it to search spouses out there. Because, you know, the ride that that I was going through, she was certainly along for that ride, and she just had less information, you know, like, I was just have to kind of keep her up to date broad strokes. And, you know, when things look like they're gonna get really serious, we've kind of bring her in and say, Hey, what do you think of moving to Palm Springs, or, you know, or North Dakota or whatever we're looking at.
In a way, it might even be harder for them. Like, as you articulate that, at least, you as the searcher have full information, and at least you're in control. If you think about it from the perspective of the spouse, you have no control. And you're at the mercy of the information that your partner shares with you. So in many ways, I don't know if I want to say it's more difficult, but it feels like a different flavor of difficulty for them.
Yeah, it's tough. The other thing is, you know, she, in my case, my wife also then had to deal with, especially when we were dealing with failure, kind of having to be supportive to me as well, despite all that right. Now, I'm, you know, in a dark place after the after the search and trying to figure out what I want to do next. And there's, you know, financial realities, like I said, we probably went close to a year with no salary at the end. So there's, there's the financial pressures. So yeah, it's, you know, there's that aspect of it is a pretty big deal as well. And I'm lucky again, that I have had a fantastic spouse who is very supportive. But it wasn't an easy time, that's for sure.
Yeah. Okay. So now, I think we've got a good sense of the journey that you went on, maybe we can zoom out 20,000 feet, and you can walk us through some of the major lessons that you extracted from all these experiences that others might benefit from?
Yeah, sure. I mean, there's a bunch of them, for sure. And I was actually talking to my former business partner the other day about this, you know, one thing he mentioned, I think, was really, really great is that perfect is the enemy of good. Meaning, you know, these businesses are all inherently hairy, and, you know, there's gonna be problems with with all of these companies, especially in that size of business. And then we were both engineers, we both had gone to business school. So we were very focused on analysis, paralysis and risk mitigation strategies, and, and all this stuff. And, you know, engineers tend to be very, you know, detail oriented. And so we saw a bunch of deals that we should have closed, I think, and I know that because bunch of companies we looked at, did get purchased, you know, during our search, and subsequent bunch of them subsequently exited.
And so I think we were looking for the perfect business. And the search fund tells you, you know, you need all of these great qualities and recurring revenue and growing company and growing market size, and no customer costs, all these things. Also, you need them at attractive valuation. And so we were just really trying to thread the needle a little too much. And I think that was a problem. And I think looking back, we should have kind of put our head down and got some of those deals closed. Now, the problem with that, though, too, is I think we were trying to make everybody happy, which is sort of related. And you can't do that either. So we had, I think in our group, over 20, individual investors, when it was all said and done, and they have different likes and dislikes and things that they're trying to achieve.
And we're trying to get everybody on board with everything. You know, I remember one time specifically that comes to mind where we were looking at as a software deal in Florida, the software at the time was sort of out of favor, like it's not like it is now, it didn't really fit into the search world at the time. And I sent out a summary to my investor base that hey, we're gonna go visit this company, we're really excited about it. And as we get ready to go the airport, I get a call from one of my investors and he says, Hey, man, this is awesome. Like this is the whole reason I got into search funds was to find 100 deals like this. Love it, you know, take my full allocation, whatever else you can get. Super excited. So great, hang up with that, hanging out with him.
And, you know, literally five minutes later, I get another call from a guy that says do not get on that airplane. I'm imploring you, this is the worst deal I've ever seen. I think he said in all of the deals I've ever seen, which is in the hundreds, this is in the bottom 1%. So had no two investors that are looking at the exact same information, the exact same company that had polar opposite views on whether we should acquire. So, for a young entrepreneur who's trying to impress everybody, that gets pretty confusing, right. And I think that that was difficult for my partner and I where we really respected this group of investors and, you know, in their experiences and their advice, and I think sometimes, that was to our detriment, a little bit when we had deals where we had, you know, broad consensus and money lined up, and we were ready to go where I think we would, in hindsight, I think we should have probably closed some of those deals.
Do you think that the, you know, to use your words, the analysis paralysis? In the, quote, engineering mindset, do you think that played a role into the due diligence processes that you characterized as kind of taking too long?
Yeah, I mean, I think if we're being honest ourselves, for sure, you know, there's a lot of, I kind of make it sound like the seller, it's all the sellers fault, and he's walking away. But you know, really, we were micro analyzing every single detail. And obviously, I'm not advocating that you don't do diligence, on your deal, of course, you want to make sure that you understand all the risk. But one thing I've found is that having bought a couple of companies now is that just just as there's a lot of risk, that you don't know about, there's usually a lot of really interesting, or kind of like low hanging fruit that you also don't uncover during diligence. So just the opposite is also true, there's some real nuggets there that you aren't going to uncover either.
And so, yeah, I think at a certain point, you kind of have to put your head deal and get to a close once again, not all the time, but once you've kind of checked those major boxes, and you have consensus, I think it's, you know, you really do kind of have to get your head down. And you're not going to get the perfect deal. And you might have to give up on some deal points that you thought were important to you. But I think that we tried to really get that perfect deal, and it didn't work.
Yeah, yeah. You know, even as an investor, now, I continue to not be able to find the perfect business. And the reason why is because it doesn't exist. And actually, you know, what you just said, I think is maybe a segue into your next lesson, which is about doors closing and doors opening, so maybe you can tell us a bit more about that.
Yeah, I mean, I just think that I did learn a lot during the search, and I didn't think that I did, so it felt like a zero, right, that we failed the search, we didn't acquire, I'm back at square one. And I don't know what I'm going to do now. But what I've since realized is, that was actually amazing training, you know, getting kicked in the teeth for three years, was the perfect training ground for being a an operator of a small business. And the relationships that I had developed during that time, you know, they didn't go away, you know, my business partner. A few years after the search, he kind of went back to that same group and was able to have those guys invest in a company that he'd bought and has been successful with, in my deal that I ended up doing, I brought on a couple guys from my investor group.
So those relationships were there. And it's just, you know, it's just tough because you're so laser focused on this one thing, you're obviously not looking at, at what else is out there. But once that was officially done, and dusted, and I'd moved on, and I said, Okay, well, what's next, I realized there was all kinds of incredible opportunities. And I had, as I said, learned a ton. And if anything, I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder, that, you know, I kind of really wanted to bring that into whatever I was doing next. And, you know, I really wanted to succeed and prove to myself and they proved to everybody else that it could be successful. So, it ended up being in my benefit, I think, but again, like I just couldn't see it at the time. I was just, you know, so defeated and upset.
And I just, you know, I didn't, if I'm being honest, I just thought it was it was all doom and gloom. But, you know, as I mentioned, I think speaking to other guys that had done that, and I think you're seeing more and more of that now. The guys are pivoting into other things or whether it's working for a company and maybe you're doing m&a with that company or you still want to be an entrepreneur, or like my business partner. As I mentioned, you know, a few years down the road you can revisit the story and get right back into it, if that's sort of the itch that you want scratch. So yeah, there's, I do think that, you know, it's, you're always gonna learn a ton during the search, regardless of the outcome that you got.
Earlier in our discussion, you mentioned this feeling that you had of not wanting to let investors down. And I kind of took note of that, because I felt the exact same thing. And I think substantially, everybody listening to this, who's in the process of a search is probably feeling something similar. Now, as an investor on the other side, I have a very different view than I had when I was searching. And I think it's important maybe for us to spend a minute to talk about your reflections in retrospect, because as you pointed out, you had this feeling of not wanting to let investors down, you raise twice, maybe you felt that feeling particularly acutely, because you raise twice. But fast forward a couple of years, both you and your business partner ended up raising from the same group of people. So can you just talk for a minute or so about that specific fear that searchers might have, and maybe what you've learned as a result of not getting the outcome that you wanted, but ultimately still working with these people for probably over a decade now?
Yeah, well, in our original investor base, it was some, you know, mostly composed of very experienced search fund investors. So, they understand how this works. And they understand the math. And I think they also, I know, a number of them also understand sort of the element of luck, that luck plays in these acquisitions. And so, you know, I now know or I should have known at the time that these guys were, despite that result, nobody wanted us to not acquire, but they were really, actually happy with what we had done the way we had conducted ourselves a search because, you know, the worst outcome as an investor now and in the community. And I know, Steve, you know this too, the worst outcome is actually buying a bad business, the worst worst outcome is not, you know, winding down the search after a couple of years.
You know, that's just inherent in the business model that a number of, of searchers will not acquire. And that's fine. I think the the problem, what really kind of, not at me a little bit more was sort of the friends and family that I had brought along with me. And I certainly didn't want to upset the original investor group. And like I said, I really looked up to these guys. But the tough thing is when you bring you know, your brother, or your best friend, or your former boss, or whoever, I think those are the guys I thought about a lot where that money might have been more meaningful to them or whatever, that's what I thought. But again, it's the same thing. Like they, they understand that this is a risk, this is how the, this is how the model works.
And that's the, you know, as an experienced investor, that's the risk that you're willing to take. So, you know, we didn't owe them anything, we absolutely gave it 100%. And that was the outcome. And everyone was fine with that. But, you know, I just couldn't understand or see that at the time, I really felt like I, you know, personally let these these folks down. And that was tough on me.
Before we get to the next lesson, I have to ask you this as a follow up question, because I have my own views on this. But I'm curious what your views are? If you were to do it all over again, would you raise money from friends and family? And why or why not?
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I mean, for me, at the time, it was a bit of a prerequisite. And it's a very, you know, it's a smart thing to do from an investor point of view, because of all the things I just mentioned. So we were a bit of an unknown quantity. So it was sort of like, Hey, listen, you need to raise a few units first, and then we can then we can talk. So if I had the choice, or the optionality, I would not include friends and family. And I've had other business ventures on the side with friends. And I actually think it's never a good idea to kind of mix those two things and mix those two worlds. And so if given the choice, I certainly would not have, but for us, it was at the time anyhow, it was a bit of a prerequisite to do so. And so that's what we did. But again, the folks that we brought along, were actually very experienced investors and they're fine with it. Again, they understood the risk associated with making that investment. And there could have been tremendous upside if we had success, but the downside was that we would not acquire and that's what happened.
Yep, yep. Okay. There are two major lessons left, one related to being hard on yourself and the merits and risks of doing that and the role of luck. So I'd love to hear about both of those.
Yeah, I think they're very related. I think that those two things are pretty related, like in retrospect, you know, as we've, as we've talked about, I think you do have to be kind to yourself and give yourself a break, if you have kind of given it your best efforts. And I think part of the reason for that is because luck does play an outsized role in this, you know, like, if you go and ask. And I would always do this, when I'd asked folks that had acquired, you know, tell me your story, tell me how you acquired? Was it some great strategy where you, you know, drilling down in this, this market that nobody had ever heard of, and, you know, met all the right people and got your way to the deal?
And usually it was something completely different, like a friend of mine, told me that his, you know, his seller, would file all of the inbound inquiries into this one folder in his email. And he had hundreds of them in there. And when he finally decided it was time to sell, he just went to the inbox and literally picked his name out of a hat and said, Okay, I'm gonna go with this guy. And they had a success. So there's a ton of stories like that, even myself, you know, when we had done the wound everything up, we tried everything, you know. tThree years, just, you know, crazy weeks, you know, no vacations traveling all over the country spending a lot of money. And we weren't able to find any success.
And then a few months later, I just got a text message out of the blue from my former CEO and said, Hey, I heard you're doing this thing. I got some friends of mine are looking to sell their business, do you want to talk to them? And three months later, I was operating that business. So I had nothing to do with that, that was just a text message that I received randomly from my former boss. And so this luck has a huge role. And it's had a huge role in my success, and I had a huge role in our failure to acquire business as well.
So to conclude, you're a very humble person. So I feel like I'm going to have to absolutely pry this out of you. But I'm going to, I'm going to do my best to do so. You know, you as a searcher encountered as many challenges and obstacles and gut punches as a searcher has faced, at least in my experience. But now you've gone on to incredible success as an entrepreneur and CEO. So I'm gonna keep pushing you until you tell us a bit of your story now, where you are now, because what I've learned from this conversation is, you know, a lot of the hardships that you experience, were critical inputs into the success that you're enjoying today. So tell us a bit about the company that you are running, how long you've been running it for, and the growth that you've been able to generate through your ownership tenure thus far?
Yeah, I mean, I always love talking about our businesses. And we're super proud of the success that we've had. The business that, you know, we bought two businesses, as I mentioned, and one of them was a 70 year old business, so it had been around in the GTA since the 1950s, you know, really great bones. But at the time, they didn't have, for example, like a website, or a logo, or the internal systems weren't, you know, they weren't using software to run their business, so very kind of old school business. But really, really smart owners and a really great product that they're selling, and really importantly, into a massive and growing market. And so I guess if you're talking about lessons as well, you know, this sort of rising tide floats all boats, we have been the beneficiaries of that for sure in Ontario.
Because, you know, two years after we acquire COVID happens, and all of a sudden, we're tuning in to the news on Friday at five o'clock each week to find if our industry is going to get shut down. And a number of them were but our industry never was because we provide, you know, support to really critical infrastructure, whether it be like a hospital or old age home. So, our businesses, it's sort of like these unsexy, low tech businesses that are kind of the backbone of the economy, they really are critical, they'll always be important. And so, in that respect, it's been really good for us. So we've been able to ride this wave of sort of the construction market, and in Toronto in particular, we have a pretty big footprint in the condo market.
And that market is just exploding and it's been exploding for 20 years. So yeah, we've really been able to two, we were able to buy a great business and add some some capital and some management horsepower and some other things to this business. And we've been really fortunate to be able to grow it. And we also, we have sort of luxury because it's a really small group that it doesn't fall into the traditional model, meaning we're not looking to sell this business in five to seven years, we view this as a business we want to hold forever. So we're able to be really thoughtful and patient about how we grow it and who we bring on and the culture that we want to set. And so it's been a great ride. And I've been lucky to have been involved in this business and had some great business partners that well that think about it the same way and are in no hurry.
So we've been, yeah, it's been great. It's and, you know, like I said, being an owner, I think that any one of your listeners is operating a business knows how hard it is, and the stuff that you deal with day to day. And I think, you know, that running a search fund for a year or a few years and dealing with a lot of challenges has really, really set me up well to deal with a lot of these challenges, because in a lot of ways they're similar.
I think it's a great place for us to conclude. Thank you for being generous with your time and your insights and being vulnerable today. And speaking of luck, we're lucky to have learned from you today. So thank you for making the time.
Yeah, thanks Steve. Again. I really appreciate you having me on. I love what you're doing with the podcast.