1869, Ep. 135 with Asaf Darr, author of Between Conflict and Collegiality

3:46PM Jul 6, 2023

Speakers:

Jonathan Hall

Asaf Darr

Keywords:

jewish

arab

workplace

workers

jews

palestinian arab

palestinian

suicide bombing

conflict

racism

research

speak

call

nurse

study

production

people

israel

hospital

findings

Welcome to 1869, The Cornell University Press Podcast. I'm Jonathan Hall. In this episode we speak with Asaf Darr, author of the new book Between Conflict and Collegiality: Palestinian Arabs and Jews in the Israeli Workplace. Asaf Darr is professor of sociology at the University of Haifa, where he specializes in researching the sociology of markets, technology work organization in the technical workforce, and inter-ethnic relations at work in war torn countries. Asaf is author of an earlier Cornell book, Selling Technology. We spoke to Asaf about how the broader conflict between Palestinian Arabs and Jews in Israel manifests itself in the workplace, what workplace lessons citizens in other countries can learn from his research, and the very surprising and counterintuitive findings he discovered about what works, and what doesn't, when it comes to managing conflict in the workplace. Hello, Asaf, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much for having me.

Yes, well, I want to congratulate you on your new book Between Conflict and Collegiality: Palestinian Arabs and Jews in the Israeli Workplace. Before we get into the backstory of how this book came to be. I'd love you, if you could read the first page of your book. It's was I read it, and I was really moved by it. And we'd love our listeners to to hear you speak this first page. But I think it really kind of brings us into the situation.

Sure, thank you very much. The fraught days and nights of the Second Intifada (Palestinian uprising, 2000– 2005) were punctuated by frequent suicide bombings inside Israel and punitive military operations in the territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 war (the West Bank and Gaza). Many of the Palestinian-Arab militants targeted Jerusalem, the country’s deeply divided capital city. An Israeli Palestinian-Arab nurse described her fear and discomfort while working in a public hospital in Jerusalem during these difficult times. And here is what she said, You are on your night shift, and people start saying that there was a suicide bombing, and you hear the ambulances around the hospital and immediately people start to watch the news and they start looking at you as if you are to blame. It happened to me many times. . . . I remember that once there was a suicide bombing, and I was working on a shift together with another Arab and two Jews. And this Arab guy was very, very loyal to his Palestinian identity, you know, a young guy who takes part in every political argument. And I knew that when we’re together and there’s a political event, well, the shift won’t end without confrontation [laughs]. And another time I remember that one Jewish nurse told him that they [the Israeli army] should enter his village, with a tank, and not leave anyone of the village [sic], and then he asked, “And if I was there?” and she replied, “You can defend yourself,” exactly in those words.

Wow.

I'll stop here. Yes, yeah, yeah.

So tell us tell us what brought you into this, this research. And these stories?

Well, I'm a sociologist of work. I actually graduated from Cornell ILR, many years ago, and I reside in Israel. And for many years, I tried to find ways of gaining a better understanding of Israeli society through my professional practice knowledge, expertise. And in previous studies, I got very interested in the fact that Palestinians and Jews meet at work on a daily basis, they spend lots of time together. And actually, this is the most important site for their meetings, because Israeli, geographically speaking, is highly segregated. So more than 80% of Arabs in Israel. Yeah. Who are citizens, not in the occupied territories reside in separate settlements or cities, towns, villages, only less than 15% of them live in mixed cities, cities that are ethnically mixed. So there's a very high segregated geographic segregation. But these these two groups, they do meet at work and I was very interested to see how do different aspects of the broader conflict manifested in the workplace. And I started reading and my great surprise, I found that very little research exist. And these, these encounters workplace encounters, although the workplace is such an important research arena for Palestinian Jewish relations, so I dug deeper into that. And I did like two waves of studies trying to understand what really takes place between members of these two groups in the workplace. And in my research, I used my professional knowledge on the sociology of work. So I looked at what we call the educational community, and divisions of labor and career trajectories, and relations between managers and workers and so on. But I always looked through these prisms at the relationship between those members of to these two groups. And I believe that there's another reason that I engage in study because I, I was always aware, as I see myself as a, you know, liberal, I see myself as somebody who's very sensitive to racism, and I know that my society is to a certain degree racist now, I racism as an ideology, ideological side to it. But it's also have a practical side, the day to day relationship. And I was very interested to see if you can identify what we call the daily racism or day to day racism on the shop floor? And if so, how to workers, mainly from minority group members in, in my case, Palestinian, but in the book also, or Russian immigrants or immigrants from the former Soviet Union? How do they deal with racism? Inside the workplace?

Wow, that's, that's a very intense topic there..., but very necessary, as you were saying, You didn't find anything on this topic. So we're so glad that you went into in depth research to look into this, this issue. So if there's daily racism, and then as you read that section from the book, then there's a conflict, and particularly the, you know, the broader conflict we're talking about with the Palestinian Arabs and Jews and Israel, how does that daily racism spike and manifest itself inside the workplace?

Okay, so naturally, when violent event erupt outside the workplace, military operation, suicide bombing, and cetera, those tensions spike, right or they end. And then workers have to work very hard to, to manage these daily relationships, I would say that the most common patterns of what I see as a basically a racist approach is that many Jewish workers in different sectors I use, I'll say a little bit, a little bit more about the design of my study later. But in different sector, what happens is that, after such events as a suicide bombing, they start treating their Palestinian colleagues, as members of a hostile entity, right, rather than as individual individuals with whom they had, you know, some kind of personal relationship, we spoke about their families they ate together during lunch, and so on. And all of a sudden they all of this is suspended. And the Palestinian Arab workers are offended, I think rightly so. When Jewish workers treat them as part of a of a hostile group of people, and not as individuals. So that's one way but there are many other way I'll give you one more example from the context in which I would say everyday racism is most common. And this is the health sector, both Palestinian Arab but also what we call Russian Jews, but basically, Jews who immigrated from the former Soviet Union, they encounter, I would say, racism on a daily basis from patients, Jewish patients who come in and, you know, and they utter all kinds of racist remarks, such as I don't want an Arab to take care of me, you know, and so on. And what is interesting is that the Arab workers, I would say, have lots of tolerance to patients expressing racist views, because they have all kinds of kind of justification for that they say they suffer, you know, they psychological energies are very low. So they just speak their mind, you know, without thinking and we are physician, we are more educated, we have to control ourselves and so on. But they do expect their Jewish colleagues to support them to confront those people who, who express racist views and when that doesn't happen, this really hurts them. So it's kind of interesting. So they kind of, except in some ways, they don't think it's natural or positive, right. But they learn to accept everyday racism from patient, but they expect their Jewish colleagues to stand by their side.

That makes sense, that would be the right thing to do,

when it doesn't always happen, and that's something that, yeah, and that's something that they complain about. And sometimes also management doesn't take a real, I would say, strict measurements to resist it. So whenever conflict can be avoided, they, they try to avoid it. I'll give you I'll just give you a funny story. You know, I, part of my study was in a maternity ward and in a large public hospital. And Palestinian Arab, a nurse she she was Christian, it's important because it's part of the story, but it doesn't really matter. But she told me a funny story, she told me about a young Jewish woman, religious woman, by the way, who came to see the facilities because she was getting ready to give birth. And this nurse, this Arab nurse, nurse gave her a tour of the facilities. And then the, the Jewish ship patient approached her and said, Listen, there's one thing I wanted to ask you is that, please don't want to be in a room without any Arab women. And, obviously, she didn't realize that the nurse was also Arab, right. And what the Arab nurse did, which is kind of common she reacted with, you can say sarcasm or humor. And she told the woman Don't you worry, because at present, I'm the only Arab in the world. And the woman was very, that's the story that the nurse tells me and the Jewish shape, patient, a woman was, you know, she was very shame. And then the next day, she came with a partner, and they apologized, and so on. But this happens. And these are things that physicians but also production workers and high tech workers whom I studied, have to deal with, and have to, to find solution for on a daily basis. Wow,

wow. Well, that's a that's a good one that nurse did was a good strategy. You also mentioned there's a coping strategy that you called split ascription. Tell us more about that.

Yeah, this is a more of a theoretical take out a more general view of what minority group members tend to do. When they, when they try to, I would say, make sense, but also work with what they see as prejudice and injustice that is based on their ethno national identity. And it's important theoretically, because my findings kind of counter the two main theories that are used to study inter ethnic relations at work, there's one big theory called diversity management, and another one called contact theory. So without delving very deep into theory, I would say this minority group members, in all the three contexts I studied in production work in the hospitals I studied, and in the high tech firms, they tried to construct, I would say, amicable or at least, you know, kind of good relationship with coworkers, right? They, they don't want to come in and work and feel tension and so on. So they invest a lot of energy in constituting the direct work environment, at least as a neutral one, right. And they do become friends with some of the Jewish workers naturally, right. So if you only look at Workplace Relations, you could say, wow, you know, there's a very positive things going on here. Because those workplace saying counters might be maybe right, kind of a solution to the greater problem. Let Jews and and Palestinians work together, they'll know each other that befriend each other or at least neutralize the relationship maybe the hostility will somehow be reduced somehow be reduced right. But in reality, my finding of what I call split ascription is that while they do constitute amicable or neutral relations, in their work environment, they still view the work in organization, the structure of the organization, promotions, managerial decision, and so on as prejudiced and even racist, right. So, this is the speaker scription. So in a way rather than coming to work and having to deal daily with a sense of, you know, being vulnerable or, or being discriminated against. They avoid that, but at the same time they speak about their organization is basically racist. Right. So this is like very simply put the thesis of split ascription.

Interesting, interesting. Well, I'm, again, so glad that you you've done this study because, you know, here we have a situation within Israel where the tensions can become very heightened very quickly with political violence. And all that being said that, you know, that's that's the best case, we might look at it from an objective point of view to see the cracks in human social interactions when the when the going gets tough see what happens to people. So obviously, racial tensions, political tensions are all around the world. What can countries in the West such as the United States or Europe, what can these western countries learn from your research?

Well, this is a very important, very broad question. And I, you know, I thought about it very often when writing the book, because I do believe that my findings do have, I would say, do have meaning in different contexts, although there's also some sharp differences, right. So if we think about the United States, let's say you absorb waves of immigration, or Europe for that second wave of immigration, let's say for Muslim countries, but the basic situation and kind of an international military level, you don't experience it an active conflict, nevertheless, as we see, mainly in Europe, but to some extent, in the US as well, we see that those inter religious conflicts, for example, can become violence, you see it in Germany in surprising places like Sweden, France, and so on. And I think that one important things is, first of all, to recognize the workplace as a very important arena, where the, if it's an ethno religious, I would call it conflict, for the ethnic religious conflict, because it doesn't just, you know, disappear. When, or, you know, when people, let's say immigrate into, into France, or, or doesn't only exist in the broader political sphere, it has daily manifestation at work. Now as to kind of policies and so on, it's very important to provide the immigrants with some kind with means to, I would say, to express, and to express their distinct identity, to encourage, for example, interethnic educational programs, to celebrate holidays, of different religions, to try and use this encounter between locals and immigrants, to learn about other other cultures and so on. But the other thing is how to treat political discussion or discussion about religion. Most workplaces try to suppress such discussion, and I think that this is kind of wrong, I think you should maybe find ways of guiding such discussion with a moderator of encouraging people to tell stories about their religious, you know, holidays, cultural aspects of holidays, and so on, and so forth, rather than suppress them. And to, I would say, you know, obviously, if that's possible to provide those, let's say, let's take the example of Muslims and immigrants, to give them the feeling that they're not considered part of this hostile mass of Muslims, you know, every time let's say, you know, God forbid, but every time some kind of a suicide bombing takes place in, in a European capital, and so on, so that you know, so not to treat them not to blame them when such events take place. So I would say that a lot of attention should be given to the daily management of religious tensions in European and American workplaces. And not being afraid of discussing those issues.

I like that idea a lot, that sweeping it under the rug or pretending it doesn't exist, it's not going to get you anywhere. Right, like having a educated adult discussion about these things. And celebration. I think I liked that idea that you have here that here, this is my holiday. This is what we do a sharing of positive aspects to create positive emotions for that person or that group. When the negative emotions come up to kind of counterbalance those those human tendencies that you said, what were some of the findings that surprised you or were counterintuitive?

There were a number of those Maybe I'll speak about one of them. And it really it has to do with the production plant where which I studied. So if you compare, let's say production workers with high tech workers, there are great differences between them, obviously, level of education, level of religiosity, and so on. And because the Israeli high tech sector is very influenced by the global industry, so first of all, you have global high tech firms, establishing research and development operations here production operations, and they bring with them what they call the diversity management practices, basically saying, you know, everyone is equal, we treat everyone according to their skills, expertise, right, we're very much against any form of discrimination, and so on. And this kind of diversity management simply doesn't exist in the production in the production sector, right. And you would expect, you know, when, when you compare those two sectors, you would expect to find, I would say, closer, more amicable relationship and more open discussions about the conflict in high tech sectors, because of this, you know, ideology of, of diversity management, but in reality, the opposite occurs. So, what I find is that the diversity management ideology, is used to suppress any kind of political talk. But more than that, it also harms the any sense of inclusion on the part of the minority group members, in my case, Palestinian Arab engineers, many engineers, a few technicians that they interviewed. So this is kind of a paradox, right? On the one hand, yes, it's, you know, kind of ideology of fairness, and so on. And I would say also, that top management also is very much against prejudice, I believe they do, and they do things to support this ideology. But in reality, the relationship between the workers we made very superficial. So they don't speak about religion, and they don't speak about the distinct identity, they don't visit each other. In there are hardly any ties that are created at work that spill over into, let's say, the private sphere, basically relationships that continue to exist outside the workplace. Now, moving over to the production plant. You know, I was very much surprised because on the one hand, Palestinian Arab production workers have what I call a concrete ceiling, above their head, basically, they cannot move up the the, the hierarchy, they don't move into management, they simply move from one plant to the other. Right. But on the other hand, they speak about religion in a very open way. They conduct very deep political discussion many times through their religious beliefs. Interestingly enough, both Palestinian and Jewish workers in production plants are more religious than in the hospitals. And in the high tech sector, so much of their also, I would say, if the national mobilization is done through religion, religious speech, so they speak about how God promised the land, the Palestinians say to them, the Jewish people say, No, it's our land. But they somehow develop a real dialogue and friendships I encountered. A few cases were put out production workers met at work, but their families got closer together. So they met outside the workplace and they go on, you know, all kinds of trips, picnics, they go out together at night, you only find it in the production sector. So, you know, I would say that the reality is is complicated.

That is a great, that is a great insight. I never would have thought of that. That's amazing. So the so the production workers are actually even though they're outspoken, but I think it comes down to communication, their selves who they are. Whereas in the high tech industry, or in a hospital, everyone's walking on eggshells, everyone's afraid to say anything. And because they don't say anything, they don't know each other.

Exactly. So and I also believe that religions provide some kind of a common ground for them to speak in the production plant. You know, both Jews and Palestinians are more religious, and they respect one another as religious people. It sounds strange, I know because we usually think about religion, religious acts dreamiest but most religious people are not extremist, right? They're just people like you and I, and here in the production plant, they can, you know, say, Oh, I believe in God and you believe in God, actually, it's quite the same God, but I understand why you're holding your position because I have the same position through my religious beliefs. So I think it's provided a common ground. And maybe so, so their class position, you know, being just production worker for all their lives, you know, and, and so on. So maybe that's also something that brings some of them together, although Jewish workers are being promoted into management and Arab workers are not so the Arab workers are very much aware of the fact that them being Palestinian Arab, prevents them from reaching managerial position. So it's a complicated world. I agree. But if you speak about friendship, and what I would call true speech, you find it in production, you don't find it in the hospitals, or in the, in the high tech sector. And just another point, what do you ask me about surprising findings? I had the privilege of studying also in an hour of hospital, which gave me a wonderful comparison. So I have a public mainly, I would say Jewish, right? Jewish hospital, but also I studied a private Arab hospital run by Christian order in Nazareth from all places. And they're the the Jews were a minority group inside the hospital. Right? So 80% of the of the staff were Palestinian, Arab, mostly Christian, right. And 20%, about 20% of the workforce was Jewish. So and what you find there is that the Jews, as a minority also felt discriminated against. And they gave me concrete examples. So So you know, Israel is a very, very complex lab for such studies. But I would say that prejudice and racism exists. It exists for all minority groups, right, although broadly speaking, you know, Jews are the majority, the very dominant group, so who the group who suffers the most from prejudiced racism, and so on, is definitely Palestinian Arab, in that in our jobs. Another interesting finding is that language language use proved to be very important point of contention between between Arabs and Jews. So the the utterance or the use of Arab language at work, sometime generated conflict with a Jewish colleagues. And this is kind of surprising, right. And I think it has to do with cultural inclusions, too. So the Arab, you know, obviously, wanted their right to speak their native tongue or mother tongue. And the Jews in such some situation, resisted that. And in the book, I make much of the context, when do they resist the use of Arabic? When do they accept it? When do they Palestinian Arab feel more most offended when they receive remarks about the use of Arabic? If we have time, I can give you a short example of such an offending remark. I think that is a it's very educating. Is that okay? Oh, yeah, I'd love that. Yeah. And then short example. This is a this is a short story that was told to me by an Arab nurse in a nursing home Jewish nursing home where she worked in and she was saying that she was tending with a friend speaking Arabic, no patients around right. And there was another Jewish colleague next to her. And they spoke Arabic and the Jewish colleague turned to her and says, Stop speaking Arabic. This is a Jewish institution, you see, you should speak Hebrew. Okay. And then the Arab nurse also told me that the Jewish nurse went and complained about your to management. Now, this for itself is kind of you know, it's a conflict. It's, I would say, offending, but the things that have that the thing that offended the Arab nurse the most, is the fact that the Jewish nurse was from a Moroccan origin. So she wasn't Moroccan Jews were Moroccan Jew, who emigrated as a child to Israel. She spoke Arabic, she understood Arabic, but nevertheless, she had something to say about the use of Arabic, although they didn't even exclude her from any conversation. Right. So this was a clear sign for the Arab nurse, that the whole thing here is about cultural inclusion. You know, it's racist. It's about the lack of of we'll too To contain or to absorb Arabic as part of the, of the Israeli culture in the workplace. So this is one example where language can become a point of contention.

Wow, you'd like to think that in this age where we are, these issues are brought to light that we would, you know, our better angels or or whatever, you know, our better instincts would prevail. But clearly, we still have some work to do. That being said, I'm so glad, as I said, before, that you have gone into this topic, it's an uncomfortable topic for some people. And I think that that's part of the reason why it hasn't been explored. So I'm very grateful that you have done this research, because your findings, including the ones that are counterintuitive, are helpful and can move us forward. And from what I'm gathering from your research. And the short discussion that we've had is that just open communication is one of the best first steps between getting groups of people together and individuals. So this is a great contribution to not only your field, but to the larger world, really, that these are lessons that the whole world can learn from. And I really appreciate that. And I encourage anyone who's listened to this and was curious to know more to read ourselves new book Between Conflict and Collegiality: Palestinian Arabs and Jews in the Israeli Workplace. Thank you so much, Asaf.

And thank you so much for having me here and for giving me the opportunity to present my book.

Oh, our pleasure, our pleasure, we're proud to be publishing it. That was Asaf Darr, author of the new book Between Conflict and Collegiality: Palestinian Arabs and Jews in the Israeli Workplace. You can purchase Asaf Darr's new book as an affordable paperback at our website. Use the promo code 09POD to save 30% off. If you live in the UK, use the discount code CSANNOUNCE and visit the website combinedacademic.co.uk Thank you for listening to 1869, The Cornell University Press podcast.