Creating a Marquee Culture at Your Organization - Mark Miller and Ted Vaughn

7:51PM Oct 29, 2021

Speakers:

Julie Confer

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Ted Vaughn

Mark Miller

Keywords:

brand

nonprofit

people

culture

organization

book

ted

values

mark

senior leaders

aligned

questions

build

moment

donors

story

agency

marquee

layers

lead

Hey, I'm John.

And I'm Becky.

And this is the we are for good podcast.

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We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.

So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

So let's get started. Hey, Becky, Hi, John. Oh, we're geeking out. Yeah, our people are here today who try to contain ourselves a little bit. But we love when marketing and branding and strategy converge for good. And that is just the narrative of our friends here on the call. Today, we're delighted to talk to Mark Miller and Ted Vaughn. They're the cofounders, of historic agency based in Phoenix, but they've got a team that is kind of around the world, so to speak. And they just wrote this transformational book, it's literally just dropped, called culture built my brand. And this book is going to really change the way I think we all think about building cultures at our organization. And they've been doing this for a long time, they have, you know, built the historic agency around the idea that they could help ambitious organizations do more good through strategy and design. And you know, us we might design, this is like our dream come true out. Absolutely. And so I love that they are really putting their flag around this idea of culture, and how it can be revolutionary, you know, it's not just a brand problem. It's an underlying cultural problem. And we're gonna unpack that today. We're they've got so much good counsel. But Mark, he leads the product strategy for historic agency. He has rebranded nearly 100 organizations wrap your mind around that for a second. But he specializes in all things strategy, including brand product and marketing. And he was a childhood fan of Bob Ross. So Ted is leads the client transformation side, he's really specifically focused on executive leadership, brand development and strategic clarity. He's our strategic thinker here. He also has served hundreds of for profit and nonprofit brands. But his passion is really to serve senior leaders by helping them align everything they do to build their brand from the inside out. So we're delighted, y'all I mean, our excitement, enthusiasm is real. Welcome to the weird for good podcast.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you. It's a huge honor to be here. Thanks for having us.

Well, Ted, would you kind of get us started, tell us a little bit about your story and kind of fill in some of the gaps that I left out a lot. So fill us in?

Yeah, well, you know, I've spent most of my career leading creatives at the executive level of the organization. And over the years, I think my own story of leadership learnings and what even Mark and I have gone through at historic as leaders is really what translated into this book. And even as an agency starting together, you know, I had been doing coaching and consulting for the nonprofit space primarily in strategy and culture. But the the residual question, right? When you get strategically clear, and you're aligned, there's a brand question. Well, now what our logo or website, all this visual aspect is broken, in light of the internal clarity we have in Mark was the guy I would call and eventually Mark and I thought, man, we should just bootstrap this thing and see if we can really help the nonprofit's we serve be better. And, you know, nine years later, we're we're here and writing this book. And I think probably the most fulfilling career journey I've ever been on has been the intersection of brand and culture coming together and having that make sense. And the further we go, the further I go in these conversations, the more it becomes this, like obvious, aha, like, why haven't why hasn't this book existed sooner? Because culture is being healthy isn't enough, right? Culture really needs to be on brand. And and I think that's what the book explores, is that that was a long answer. No,

I love that answer.

I'm already geeked out and leaned in. What about

you, Mark? Yeah. So I've looked back at your career and you start to notice patterns. You know, when you're in it, you don't necessarily know what you're doing sometimes. You're just trying to say yes to opportunities. And so for the past 20 years, I've been working in the nonprofit sector, in the tech sector, really coming in and doing turnarounds so the whole rebranding 100 Different things is working, whether it's product or organizations, helping them fix marketing teams. You know, there's one organization that we've we've worked with that we came in to fix marketing, and then we stumbled into development. This was early on in our agency. And we've always I've always supported fundraising and development or advancement, whatever cool term we accept. That in itself is a whole story, but just realizing like why is why are people doing developed, I had no idea like, why or how you should be doing this. So like I had just watched Moneyball or read the book second,

the forecast we love.

And I was like, we should just do this. This sounds like let's use data to make decisions. And that turned into, you know, our approach to fundraising fundraising, which we call brand first donor experiences, is taking that data and then pairing it with what TED is talking about, like, how do you have a unique, differentiated culture and organization that's aligned with your brand, which ultimately creates these really impressive, unique experiences for donors who feel like they're part of a bigger community and a bigger mission, and know why and how you're different than other organizations. And then you don't want to give money to that because the work you're doing. And so that just kind of, you know, spun up into where we are today, realizing that running our head against this, this culture issue where as an agency, we were hired to fix websites and brands, and you know, even do product, whether it's online courses, or curriculum or other stuff, for nonprofits, and run into this problem where the culture, the leadership, didn't have the things in place to actually do what they wanted, like we could make the thing that they wanted. But they didn't actually know how to live that thing out, which was a weird thing. We just kept hitting our head. And I was like, why can I develop a great brand strategy in creative for one organization, and it returned 100, or 1,000x, and the organization stumbles to even make it to market with that same approach. It turned out like, Oh, these are the, you know, working with Ted, these are the like, leadership problems, right, you know, phrases like, well, this is the way it's always been done, or valuing internal stakeholders versus all stakeholders, right? Those kinds of problems. You're like, oh, that's why and that turned into our booth.

I mean, my,

my question, I've had my hand over my heart already a couple times here. I mean, y'all, this is the secret sauce. People think it's like putting lipstick on something. And it's like, it's not gonna work. If you don't address the root issue, it's about authenticity, to I feel like is a big thing of like, reflecting that back of if the culture is not the brand, then it doesn't work, right.

You know, I think for a long time, there was this idea that brand was about external facing product, identity. And organizational culture was about health, and they were different consultants, they were different parts of the consulting spectrum. And what we realized as an agency is, it's not enough for your culture to just be healthy. You need to be healthy and structured in a way that is differentiated and aligned to your brand and to your brand value. So there are ways and this is what the book talks about layers in culture to help integrate culture in a way that isn't just healthy or not healthy. That's, that's the ticket to the dance. That's the the the minimum standard is health, health with alignment equals breakthrough success. And that's really what the book is about. There's a lot of books written on organizational health, and we address that we want you to be more than healthy, we want your people to be the marquee, the banner, the lit up sign for your brand. Because if you get that, right, that in combination with all your products and services, and logo and marketing will be what what breaks you through your glass ceiling.

I mean, I have to drop a joke in the middle of this because every time you talk, it's like a TED Talk. When Ted Talks, it's this TED talk moment. And I'm like, Yes. Like I just I'm never heard that. Oh, never heard that before. Sorry for the dad joke. But it's true that people are missing, what's really at stake here? And what's the opportunity, because when people get that, and they see how they can talk about their mission, and it's reflected in the brand, like it lights them up, like it's, this is so good and so pure, like I just I love that you've started at this level, because this is where revolutionary movements are made. So okay. Laindon.

So you've already kind of teed up like marquee culture, and this is a hallmark to your secret sauce, and what you talked about culture built my brand, I want you to kind of set the scene for listeners about what is marquee culture, and how do we create it.

Again, like Ted said, marquee culture is the reason we we came up with this term is that we did some research on top performing consumer brands, nonprofits that we had worked with, and even small businesses, and we found patterns. And what we found was that their internal culture was so vibrant, and aligned with their brand that it was drawing both talent and customers are donors to the organization in droves. Right. And they these organizations spend less on marketing comparatively to people in their same category. They spend less on Talent Recruitment. And so marquee is that idea of that big lit up sign in front of the theater, that from a mile away, you can see what it's about, right. And so we think that the high performing brands need to have this type of culture they are in most cases they already do, right and that's kind of why they're performing at a higher level. And so the six kind of things that we discovered, we call them layers because they, they work together. And when you layer them on top of each other, they you become more successful in aligning your internal corporate culture with your brand. And just real quick, those six things are principles which we define as behaviors. So a lot of companies have values. Enron had values, like integrity, and they all went to jail. So how do your values actually dictate behavior? You know, what people think about you is your brand, but what impacts what they think about is your culture and your people, right? So your culture, and people will make decisions about budget and product. And every little decision they make influences what external audiences think about you when you're not in the room. Right? So principles, being the first thing we have architecture, like a house, there's organizational systems, like plumbing, and HVAC, and all these things. What are the actual internal systems, how you hire, how you fire all that stuff? Is it aligned to your brand, does it represent your values, then we have lore, which are the stories that everyone hears about your organization, you know, great brands have these amazing stories about how they were started, or how our product was developed. Or this, this thing about them and how they pivoted. Unfortunately, our experiences, nonprofits don't spend a lot of time trying to develop those and being intentional about them. So that's lower than we have rituals, which is experiences. Ted, you want to talk about this one?

Yeah. And I think too, one thing to keep in mind, you don't all of these layers, sometimes you can go Yeah, that's common sense. Organizational structure. Of course, there are stories that every brand has that they like or don't like, of course, what we're challenging people to do is name, address and be intentional about things and culture that I think often we just assume exists that we can't control or that we don't touch, we don't think about rituals, great example. Rituals are those experiences that serve to energize and invest your people. A lot of times we think about rituals as like, oh, all staff meeting, or we're going to go on a scavenger hunt, or we're going to do these crazy staff days, that in reality, the best rituals are when your people are so passionate about the brand, they serve that they do things organically that reflect and drive your brand. from the inside out. We literally have a story in the book of NASA Jet Propulsion Lab, and there are people doing a pumpkin carving contest. It's not taxpayer funded. But you've got people so passionate about what they do for a living doing something on their own. Senior Leadership don't control it, they don't fund it, they don't organize it, it happens organically within the staff. And that's it. For us a great example of any organizations, people doing something that is an incredible demonstration of their passion and alignment and personality, that is is on brand,

the way that that fosters community in storytelling, you know, from an internal standpoint, and from an external standpoint, even think about like little kids who are interested in engineering or science that want to participate in that you've created a movement or a moment, you know, to express that in a way where everybody can come together. And that becomes an extension of that brand. That experience does the way that we felt the things that we've seen. And that is I think what is so cool about what you guys are saying and how and I love like the ritual component. The names of these are fantastic, by the way.

So the last two layers are vocabulary vocabulary is obvious. Because all of these address language, right? It's those sticky words that bring people back to those core ideas. Netflix is a great example. They've got words like talent, density, sun shining, you know, these words all mattered their people internally and have great values that are behind them. And we believe great brands have the same thing. They've got those words, those ideas, those phrases, that handbook, that helped their team feel a sense of purpose and kind of galvanize them together. That's vocabulary. Last layer, Mark, go ahead and talk about

your favorite fun, the fun part. So artifacts are the physical representation of the brand, or its values that you're trying to express to your people so they can actually touch it, you know, think more creatively about how you can remind people not just the logo, but of the types of behaviors that they need to be exhibiting as an organization. And, you know, this is important when it comes to nonprofits. Because there's a lot you know, if you have people who are answering phones, taking donations and helping supporters, you know, there's a lot you can do there to remind them, right, whether it's a custom poster or plaque or pins or stickers to remind them how they should behave on the phone. Right. So it's not just this once a year training, but it becomes more creative and expressive in a tangible way.

I just wanted to say quickly to piggyback on what Mark saying, you know, I think often nonprofits assume that their people are on brand because they We're all working for the same common cause. And when you work for a cause organization, there can be this assumption that we're all fighting the same fight, we're all working for the same cause we're all a part of the same brand. And we're all aligned. And what I find in nonprofit after nonprofit is that that assumption is wrong. So I would say sometimes the brands that need to be the most intentional about these things are the nonprofit's because we assume so much we assume our people are healthy, we assume our people are on brand, we assume we're working for the same cause. And those assumptions that can often create huge inefficiencies and gaps and problems in culture that are sometimes famous for a nonprofit that, frankly, the for profit world has figured out.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of synergy between there that we're just not leveraging and nonprofit. And I think the thing that I like so much about this ecosystem that you're building here is it's based on what I still call our number one core value of our company, which is everyone matters. And it's, it's not, it's making sure that no one feels out of the loop of any part of this. And so there's a harmony there that doesn't make it seem like Well, you're in the donor relations department, and you're in development, and I'm in back office. And I even think your example of somebody answering the phone, we shouldn't give that one person a script. Everybody needs a script, because we're all answering the phone at some point. And that person's going to have to go to lunch or to the restroom, or they're going to be sick one day, or whatever, that they're going to be on the other line. So how are we making the culture be so immersive that we're all bought in, we're all pouring into it. And we all see ourselves in the culture. And as an important part of that, that is how you get what we're calling rabid fans, you know, and if rabid fans start at home that can only permeate out beyond the internal ecosystem into what the brand is actually expressing outside of our walls of our office,

there's just so much power in activating people at a deeper level beyond just what their job description is. But if they feel this alignment, this depth of what they're doing this connectivity back to the mission, vision values, all of that, it's like the ripple of that can't be chased, you know, can't even be tracked down.

And that's why we spend so much time talking about organizational structure and leadership. Often where it goes wrong is the way we use power and decision making. And the way we equip and empower our staff and those lines of supervision and development and management, those break down. So all these great ideas, whether they be rituals, or artifacts or principles, all these things fall apart because the organizational structure collapses, because there isn't good management, there isn't good supervision, there isn't good leadership. And if any sector deserves at the most, it's the nonprofit sector. over the over the years of my career, the greatest employees I've ever worked with and nonprofit sectors, they didn't want to work for the nonprofit sector, the idea of working for a nonprofit didn't excite them, what excited them was the cause that they were bleeding and working for less money for not that they get to be a nonprofit employee. Right? That that idea of a nonprofit sector is overrated and actually leads to bad legacy thinking like, well, we shouldn't spend money here, we really shouldn't throw a party. We really all this is what's held the nonprofit

is your tax code. It shouldn't be Yeah. Methodology for business, right? It's, it's a tax,

you all are preaching to the choir. I mean, I can think of moments where I was sitting in a board meeting in my nonprofit, and you know, one of our board members who may be a CEO or president of a company, who gives his sales people, whatever they need to scale to innovate, to connect, is telling us, we need to make sure that we keep our ROI low. And it's like that is the mentality that we are trying to shift that we've got, if we want to scale. If we want to innovate, if we want to grow, we are going to have to put something into the budget, we are going to have to empower the end user to think bigger. And I love that that is what you're saying here and the six culture mark these murky culture, deliverables are so smart. I love the layers of them. And I and I want to transition into navigating broken cultures, because I will tell you, John and I were on a call this week with someone in the we're for good community who put 30 minutes on our calendar to talk to us about something and within five minutes, we found out that he said we have values there on our website, they're written in our organization, no one is living them. Not one person here is living these values that are up and expressed as who we are. So help us understand. How do you start sharing, or moving to this marquee culture when these traditional solutions aren't going to fix the broken culture?

I think the this is the right place to start. Most organizations, most nonprofits have values. The real question is, are those values actually shaping how your people behave? If they're not, then you either need to change your values or keep them and do what we describe in the book as principles which is right very clear bullet point, actionable behaviors tied to each value that doesn't violate HR law. But that helps your people know how to be haev and be on brand. I think that's where you start. You don't need branded swag, or an amazing football line in your office, if you don't have values that shape how your people behave, or that they buy into, you have to start there, because that really is what cascades down and shapes everything else. When it comes to culture, people will

start paying attention because your team is going to be operating differently than anyone else in the organization. And they're gonna be like, Well, why? Why is that? And they're gonna start asking questions. And then for you, as someone who needs to lead up, you know, Ted, you're really good at coaching people in this is, you know, trying to provide solutions or ideas is really not the way to lead up, the best way to lead up is by asking questions. And so if you're in a broken culture, start asking really interesting questions. Really smart questions.

I think your points at Goodwin just that no one's absolved of this, you know, no matter what side of the house you're at. I mean, you can be an agent of change for this, whether you're in a leadership position or not, we all have a role to play. Obviously, the onus is on the leadership to set the tone. But I think wherever you're at, you can lean into this and kind of ask them those questions. So I appreciate that insight. For sure. I like geeked out on all the levels that we could go with this. But it for us, it comes back to philanthropy, y'all stories have threaded together nonprofit experience, is there a moment in your career that you've seen philanthropy really, I don't know stick with you in a special way or something that's really resonated with you over your lifetime. We'll start with you mark.

Growing up, I didn't have the most Norman Rockwell family will say. And so there was a time where my dad was homeless, he was addicted to drugs, and ended up staying in a shelter called City team, which is a big nonprofit rescue mission in San Jose, California. And, you know, his life ended up getting turned around through that organization. And a few years ago, we had the opportunity, serendipitously to rebrand the organization that helped my dad get back on his feet. And that was a really fun, personal, like, being able to walk through, you know, Ted and I were on site and being able to walk through the building and, and see different places and where the guys were asleep. And all that stuff was just really powerful and moving. So anyways, whoever gives the C Team Thank you, um, a, an example of my dad, his example of of that. The professional side is with his organization that we worked with early and are at historic, one of our early nonprofit clients. One of the things that we really were convicted about is the brand values. When we communicate to donors, we're going to communicate based on our values. We're not they're not checkbooks, their partners in our cars. So we took them from half a million dollars in the hole to cashflow positive to cash surplus budgets, but a donor who they did not know as a major donor called and left a voicemail, you know, another cultural thing Well, how did that happen? Called asked for the CEO, we didn't know whose donor and said, Hey, I'm going to give you a seven figure gift. And the reason I'm going to is because you've been consistent in your communication in your branding, in that I feel like I can trust you with seven figures worth of money and that you're going to steward it well. And I think not as a brand marketing guy, right? That is, that's awesome. But I think it also like vindicated this idea that we could build a culture of what it means to be part of this organization. And it was successful. And so that was a really cool story. And obviously, they were very happy. And then they grew so much that they didn't need us they had lots of money.

I love that when stories like that happen, like where somebody will randomly call you up and just drop the you know, the golden ticket right into your lap. But it's it's a testament again to I mean, marketers everywhere standing up cheering at the story because it really is about, you know, everybody's probably hitting up that guy anyway, if he has that level of wealth, even if it's not hidden those donors or getting hit up by everyone if you want to stand out to something different. Do something wholesome right now, the currency the new currency of this generation is kindness showing up authentically and vulnerably in a space

and and that's totally what we did. I mean, there is one annual report we've put together that was organization worked in places around the world where bread was really important. There are different styles of bread so we made and hire, basically built in a cookbook into the end To report and we got so many stories of families making different types of bread together with their kids and being able to explain the work that they were, this organization was doing overseas with their kids in a tangible way. Right? Like we different bread, these kind of people in this country, this bread and this is you know, and it was just a really, it was one of the things that they commented on, like we were really intentional about doing those things that you mentioned.

It's just it's movement from branding of the old days, I feel like was more like about control, like you gotta use this and this and all looks like yes, it's the power of the people embracing the brand and interpreting the Brando monsters is really powerful. What about you, Ted, we'd

love to hear your story. You know,

I think the story that comes to mind the most, that affected me personally was working with a client. And coming in to understand how broken the brand was culturally because the senior leadership didn't see their staff giving and donating and they thought if you're a part of this brand, and you're aligned with this mission, you should be on the cutting edge of donation and giving regularly and being a being a part of that. Right. The the assumption was, economic gifts is how we determine allegiance, right? So I came in and was able to, luckily, this was a very coachable, self aware senior leadership team. So I could kind of poke and prod and ask questions and and come to find out, you know, what they pay their people like most nonprofits doesn't really allow their afford their people the opportunity to be as as generous financially. So I asked the question, Well, how else can people contribute or give or demonstrate a sense of investment? And the answer was pretty much nothing. So working alongside this team over six months to build opportunities for staff who were not well paid to demonstrate and provide opportunities to show alignment and passion, right to be a part of those pumpkin carving contests like at NASA that show their heart and their soul. And their desire to be a part of this brand, resulted in a complete cultural turnaround in less than six months, because the senior leadership saw their people show up in ways that were beyond giving dollars. And that translated to even more value and alignment and passion and culture. It was an example of a marquee culture, and it had nothing to do with them giving, which is how they had been focusing on their people and creating so much sideways energy and shame and all of these other issues that were oppressing the culture and, and seeing that happen, you know, my family got excited about some of these new opportunities and ways they created for people to be invested and involved through time and talent. And, and we got involved, and it was a very formative moment for my kids, and some of those moments that they reflect back on as being important and significant in their growth. I think money is important, right? You have to have money. But you also have to have opportunities for people who lack resources to demonstrate and give and be a part of your cause. Because they want to be we just often don't give them opportunity or value them. So

highlighting this, and it's probably annoying that we keep coming back to our core values. But it came about because we built a philanthropic movement in our careers. And we knew it's true. And it's about growing believers, not just donors, because the believer is worth so much more in how they activate and show up and engage people. So we're moving into what's your one good thing what's when can we distill this down to a piece of advice that you could impart on our community today, it could be a secret to success or a good habit that you have go for it.

I deal a lot with senior leaders in know firsthand the power of a senior leaders ability to destroy culture, from how they lead and behave or build it up. And I think too often, senior leaders assume that people are willing to tell them the truth assume that their people are being honest. And what I find time and time again, especially in nonprofits, unfortunately, is that the higher up you are in the food chain, the more self deluded you probably are to the reality of your organization. I think my biggest nugget, these days that I spend a lot of time talking about the more power you have in any organization, the more important it is for you to build a bridge over that power to the people that are around you, under you, sideways to you doesn't matter. But if you don't build a bridge, people won't tell you the truth or give you the feedback that you desperately need. And that's on you. Just saying that you don't like yes, men isn't enough. You actually have to build a bridge and how you behave and how you understand power and decision making and culture in order to really hear the truth. And if we don't do that, as senior leaders, we'll perpetuate our own self delusion at the cost of our cars.

Oh my gosh, that was such a good one good thing that is about one of our favorite topics, which is self awareness and you could be the nicest person in the room, the most beloved leader but if you do not have a way to make someone feel safe, and to feel open enough to express what's actually feeling there is no survey there is nothing that can be done to get that data, so excellent.

And I'll say this to market myself as much as I do the people listening, you have to give yourself permission to lead according to the season you're in. Not every brand is in the same place at the same time there, there's a lifecycle. And when you're starting something, you rely heavily on the people you know, and that know you. And often, that's family and friends. And then at some point, you hit ceilings and go, dang it. I don't think this person or these people are the right people for where we're heading. And that's a crisis moment. And you either respond to that crisis moment and break through that ceiling, or that becomes your ceiling. We chose to break through that ceiling, that's painful, you get cut, there's, there's there's a broken glass, but there's no way around it. And I think it's even more true in the nonprofit sector. Because so much of this alignment is like blood and sweat and tears for a cause, not just bottom line. And that makes those glass ceilings even harder to break through. But you have to give yourself permission to reinvent into rethink and address values into reassess and update your brand more frequently than ever, because the pace of change isn't slowing down. So if you think your nonprofit cars from 10 years ago, is still sufficient for today. It's probably not. So I think giving yourself permission to constantly rethink and evolve and adapt and own where you are. You have to give yourself permission to survive those, those moments of change and crisis.

Preach. Yeah, that was a very brilliant thing. And so I think especially looking to those founders that are starting their nonprofit, are you kind of early on the journey? I think what you just said there is wholly true and something that people need to realize and and look at as an opportunity of pushing through and coming out in emerging in this new way. So okay, this conversation has been cup filling. I've been taking notes there all over the place over here. But let's round this out. Yes, book just dropped. I love the cover of it as a designer, y'all slayed it. But culture built my brand is now available, tell us where people should connect with y'all on this and how they can connect with you.

Well, you can buy it wherever books are sold. So official, but you can also check out culture, but my brand.com. So when if you get the book will, you can download the tools off of the website that we actually use with our clients on how to shape culture. So if you're like, where do I start, the book is a great place. But then we actually give you the tools to like actual activities, work with your team, so that you can start transforming your culture.

I'm just really proud of this book, it feels like something our sector needs. I understand that it's translatable, probably across all sectors, but specifically, nonprofits, I just feel are worthy of having this discussion. It is total growth mindset. It's about turning the lens on the way we look at each other, the way that we look at the output of our product, the expression of our product, and it's about how we want people to come into our house, I'm using quotes, you know, air quotes, how they're going to come in and interface with us what do our missions mean, it's bigger than just this gala, or this capital campaign, it is so much bigger, because those things are moments in time, but the mission is forever. And so the culture of that must be represented in the brand and the people in every part of it. So I hope everyone listening right now will take that challenge and think about how you can elevate that, come check out this book is wonderful culture built my brand. I think what you're saying is wonderful, go visit historic agency calm, which gives me a wonderful transition to say how can people contact you? Where do you want them to contact you and hook us up on where you are in social,

I am at TED von TDV ug, H and across all all of the channels.

And I'm on LinkedIn and Mark Michael Miller. And

I think just to say to this book, even though we've talked a lot at a high level, conceptually, the book is filled with practical handles on where to start, no matter where you are in the organization. I think that was a big desire to make this topic less abstract and broad and in theoretical and make culture practical and tangible and applicable, which is why we have later left

shoe because we got a lot of plates we're spending all the time and nonprofit were in a lot of hats. And so getting right into the framework would be really excellent. So thank you guys so much I can I know I'm speaking for John, when I say we have absolutely love this conversation and appreciate what you're putting into the world.

I literally just bought the book. So considering that you're sitting here. Thank you guys. It's been an honor.

Thanks so much for having us. Super fun fun.

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