S11 E16 Promoting Peer Engagement and AAC in Inclusive Classrooms

7:58PM Jan 18, 2024

Speakers:

Tim Villegas

Keywords:

disabilities

inclusion

aac

friendships

belonging

peers

kids

educators

thinking

students

learning

inclusive education

communication

faa

talk

teaching

people

relationships

intervention

elizabeth

Hi friends it's Tim Villegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education and you are listening to think inclusive, our podcast that features conversations about inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. If you've been following think inclusive for a while you know that we talk about the many benefits of inclusive education for everyone. Academics is one benefit, but this week, our guests are going to highlight why relationships with peers are often an overlooked byproduct of inclusive classrooms and how augmentative and alternative communication can fit into this equation. Dr. Elizabeth Biggs is an assistant professor of special education at Vanderbilt University, where she acts as a researcher it also teaches classes focused on inclusion and general education access for students with disabilities, who have extensive support needs. She also is an affiliated faculty member of the Vanderbilt Kennedy Center, which is an interdisciplinary hub for research, advocacy and service focused on improving the lives of people with intellectual and developmental disabilities and their families. Her research focuses on augmentative and alternative communication, AAC, and students with complex communication needs particularly supporting belonging and inclusion for this group of students by improving social communication language and literacy outcomes. Aaron Turner is an educational consultant for the enhancing peer networks project at Vanderbilt University. As a special educator for 12 years, Erin served diverse schools and districts across many roles. She taught both general and special education classes led an inclusion program and served as a district wide Special Education coach she now collaborates with and provides training to educators and school sites to implement the enhanced peer networks intervention. On this week's episode, Elizabeth and Erin discuss the importance of fostering friendships and peer relationships, and inclusive classrooms. They emphasize the need to prioritize social emotional learning and provide practical tools for supporting peer engagement. The conversation also touches on the role of augmentative and alternative communication and facilitating communication and connection among students. The enhancing peer network project research initiative focused on building capacity for friendship and social communication development is highlighted as a valuable future resource for educators and families. This episode sponsor isn't really a sponsor, I just really want to tell you about this magazine called good tape. It's a real physical print magazine, all about podcasting, with great writing, and incredible art. And it's just so cool. And something we really need as an industry. I've been podcasting for over a decade now. And I wish that this resource was around when I first started, and I'm so glad I have a copy of their first issue. It's sitting on my desk right now. If you want your own copy, go to good tape.com and use promo code podcast 15 for 15% off. That's godt a p e.com. Using the promo code podcast 15 at checkout. After a short break my interview with Elizabeth Biggs and Aaron Turner and for free time this week, I have a very short rant. At least I'm going to try to make it short. Stick around. We'll be right back.

Elizabeth Biggs and Aaron Turner, welcome to think inclusive. Thanks

for having us, Tim. Yeah, thanks

for having us. I'm so excited.

So I was introduced to Elizabeth actually, we didn't actually meet at the cloud 21 conference in Pasadena. But somebody I did meet, told me to go to your session and that was Eric Carter. And he said, You really need to go to Elizabeth's session because she knocks it out of the park. And so I went to the session and you were talking about appearing engagement friendships. In using AAC or augmented It is an alternative communication. And I was only able to listen to like half of it. But I was like, Oh my gosh, I need to talk to you, I need to have you and your colleague on the podcast. And so what I would love to start off with is, you know, a lot of educators listen to think inclusive. And we all know that a benefit of inclusive classrooms is, you know, academic progress, but we don't really talk about relationships or, or peers. So why are relationships with peers, often overlooked when thinking about inclusive classrooms?

Yeah, man? That's a really good question. I think for a number of reasons. So one of the things I think about is, is sort of like the history of how inclusion has come to be. And I think we started thinking about inclusion, thinking about like, socialization feels like the word that comes to mind, right? Like, oh, we've got to get kids socialized. So we need them with their peers. I think we really quickly realize like, okay, that's not our only goal, like that's a that's a pretty small goal. And we want to do things like build self determination, build authentic belonging, and, you know, in the last couple decades, we want them to have access to the general curriculum. I am so thrilled that we have started talking about all those things. But what I think we've lost is that focus a little bit on peer relationships, that, that the general education curriculum isn't actually just academics. But the general education curriculum is this well rounded curriculum designed to support students in becoming college and career ready? And how we relate to peers is a tremendous part of that. So why is it overlooked? I think it's just that teachers are busy, right? I know that teachers are juggling so many different priorities. And even though there's language in the law around these things, like well rounded education within ESA, this idea of being college and career ready, I think these things take a backseat to academics.

Yeah, I agree with all those things. I also think, in my experience is a special educator and a general education teacher. We have a lot of trainings around unpacking academic standards, there's district wide trainings, and school trainings and a lot of professional development around that. We don't get the same focus on unpacking social emotional standards, even though they do exist in a lot of states. And there's oftentimes speaking and listening standards. But I think it comes down to time again, I know, administrators and educators are making sort of impossible decisions about what to prioritize when it comes to teacher training. And if teachers aren't getting training on doing these things, then it makes sense that they don't feel as comfortable doing things like being play partners, or thinking about their job in a different way that is facilitating friendships in their classrooms. So I think it makes sense that teachers maybe feel less comfortable doing that.

Overall, do you feel like it's just like friendships and relationships? They just have been deemed devalued? Like? Yeah.

That's a good question. From my perspective, I don't think they're devalued. I mean, I think the more we talk with teachers with speech language pathologists with hair educators, I was just talking with a speech language pathologist the other day, and I asked that question, like, what's important to you, for your students? And without me raising friendship, friendship came up for her, right? We care about these things. I suspect it's more that we think we can't do anything about it, that we don't see it as something that can actually change or that educators or adults really have a lot of ability to intervene on.

Yeah, I think it's also that we don't know how to do it in a lot of ways. I think, you know, thinking about how there has been a shift to sort of prioritizing social emotional learning in a lot of ways, I think so especially since the pandemic, it still looks a lot like teaching kids about their feelings and coping strategies and mindfulness and all of those things are great things that should continue to happen. But I think we just don't know exactly how to foster friendships, how to go about doing that, always.

So are we able to use fostering friendships as an intervention, though?

I mean, we think so. Of course. We think it's, it's an intervention. You know, when you think about whether or not something can or should be an intervention, I think first is it a problem and then if it is a problem, is it important in For does it matter enough that it needs to be solved? And I think the answer is absolutely yes to both of those questions in this case. Over the years, I've talked to so many parents and IEP meetings, or just through my relationships with them, that have said, I just want my kids to have friends. And that's such a priority for them. And I mean, my gosh, like what an important part of childhood, it makes sense that that's so important to them. And while I oftentimes tell them, well, we can't write an IEP goal that says so and so we'll make this many friends by the end of the year, what we can do is think about all those things that lead up to making and growing friendships, all of those skills, and all those environmental factors. So that's really what we're trying to get out with this intervention. Yeah,

I have used the language before, I don't actually know if this language sits well with other people. But I like it, that we can't like conjure up a friendship, like we can't just like wave a magic wand and create a friendship. But what we do know what sorts of things help foster a friendship. And we also know what sorts of things make barriers. And so of course, we can intervene on those things. And so I've often thought about it as like the things related to students, we can intervene on those, so like building up their communication skills, helping them feel safe and comfortable in their school environment, but also the environment related factors, those environment related factors, like are they even in classrooms with their peers? And when they are? Are they like this island in the back? Are they actually doing shared activities. And then one of the things that we're especially interested in are those peer related factors. So we have to help support peers in knowing how to be good friends, to all kids, including kids with disabilities. And so that's about helping giving them tools and comfort, interacting with their classmates with disabilities. And, you know, the benefit of intervening on friendship, or supporting peer interactions and relationships is that these things are just the foundation for so many other skills. So when you help support a friendship, it doesn't stop there. That means that kids are gaining engagement skills, they're gaining language skills, they're gaining interpersonal skills, and they're developing like healthy self identity, which is so important for all of us.

I've often heard as an argument for, like segregated spaces, that the family or the, the school district will be will say, in an IEP, or maybe just in a planning meeting, you know, we really want so and so to have friends, you know, we want them to feel comfortable, we want them to feel like they belong. And that's really going to happen better in a classroom, where the kids are just like that, like an autism classroom or a classroom for students with intellectual disability or a student, or a student who has some, you know, emotional behavioral challenges. Do you think that it makes a difference? Does it matter where it it is like in a self contained segregated environment? Or in a general education classroom? Like, what's your experience with that?

Yeah, your question, Tim, makes me think about the different types of people that are in the settings, but also the settings themselves. And so when I think about like, okay, should kids with disabilities be friends with other kids with disabilities? Well, of course, right? Of course they should. But that shouldn't be all of their friendships. And I think the reason I felt like I can stand here and say that is not because of my own identity as a person with a disability, but listening to people with disabilities who have said, we value both of these friendships, we value friendships with other people who are neurodiverse, or who have disabilities, but we also value friendships with people who aren't. And I think, is this idea that like a person with a disability isn't defined just by their disability. And so if they have all these different components of their identities, why would that be the only natural connection point for really meaningful relationships? Right? There's so many other aspects of who they are. And so, of course, we would expect that they would be able to form really natural, healthy, important relationships with other types of people as well, in the setting itself. Oh, my goodness, I am just not at all convinced that that's true. I feel like from my own experiences working, including in segregated settings and in inclusive settings, and then looking at the research evidence, I really don't think that there's any reason to think that kids with disabilities are making friendships better in segregated settings. There were even some more recent articles that came out in a recent issue in the journal RP ISD. Looking at kind of social contexts and friendships and the data are compelling kids have more relationships when they are in strong, inclusive settings than segregated settings.

Yeah, I think the other thing to highlight is the impact that this has on peers. Also, I think that we can't forget this part that peers without disabilities benefit and grow in so many ways, when they have meaningful interactions and relationships with their classmates with disabilities. And if we're segregating students with disabilities, and that's just not going to happen. I think there's pretty good evidence now that segregation of any group of children is going to do a disservice to all children. I know on a personal note, as a parent, one of the things that I want most for my own kids is for them to get to interact with and feel comfortable with, and ultimately learn from lots of different kinds of other kids. And kids learn through experiences and observation. So we can teach kids about disability and neurodiverse, neurodiversity all that we want, but that's only going to go so far if they don't get to have experiences and relationships with other kids with disabilities. And I personally get to see some of these things actually play out in schools when I do our intervention. And it's so rewarding and special. And I've learned a lot from it, and getting to see some kids without disabilities learn things from the art intervention group. So things like kind of relaxing and getting to be silly and play in more non conventional ways. Learning about all the different ways that people might communicate, we recently had a couple students learn to give weight time to one of their peers and sort of seeing that light bulb moment of oh, if I just wait a couple extra seconds, then he'll answer me. And it's so much more fun when we have this reciprocal interaction. So it's just really fantastic to get to see these moments and get to see what peers are learning also.

Well, tell me more about you brought up the you your intervention. So tell me more about the your projects, I don't want to I don't want to say it because I don't want to get it wrong.

Our project is called the enhancing peer network project. It's a four year research grant funded by the Institute of Education Sciences. And it's a really special project. It's called a development and innovation project. And so that that means we're trying to develop a practical and effective tool that people can use in schools all across the country. And so I like to think about it as our goal is really to partner with schools to build up this capacity to support friendship and social communication development for elementary age students with autism, who are either non speaking or who have limited speech. And so part of this is that we're integrating augmentative and alternative communication. So specifically speech generating devices, also sometimes called communication devices, we're integrating those into the intervention, wanting to help support normalizing AAC and providing better communication access for these students with limited speech. And so we do have kind of three main components to the intervention. The first is social emotional teaching. So we're using children's literature focused on topics like inclusion, belonging, diversity, neurodiversity disability inclusion. And we're teaching social emotional lessons using these children's books and explicit instruction and universal design for learning to groups of students with and without disabilities together. That's one of the components that we think forms just a really important foundation for building healthy relationships is that social, emotional learning. On top of that, then the second component is what we call the peer network. And so that's getting a small group of two peers without disabilities and a student with autism together to play. And one of my favorite things about this is that it's play based because often I think we keep hearing from educators like speech language pathologists, or teachers, like I didn't know that we could play still, like I didn't know that this could be part of what we're doing in schools. And so the idea is that play is such a good way to foster engagement and engagement is the foundation of learning. So by supporting engagement in these contexts, we teach peers what we call ways to talk and play. So these are just really simple ways that they can support reciprocity or engagement or communication while they play together. And then the last is that we'll actually start working on developing this component next year is really providing more intensive social communication teaching for the students with autism. So together these components that social emotional learning, these peer networks and then this intensive kind of you use of AAC throughout the day supporting that integration, we think can help support kind of twofold sets of outcomes, social outcomes around peer engagement and friendship and also learning for kids with and without disabilities. Eventually,

this will be something that educators and even families could look at use in their schools. Is that right? Yeah,

that's exactly right. So it's a four year grant, we're just wrapping up your to buy your for our goal is to have, you know, a public facing web page with all sorts of resources and materials that educational teams and parents could come and grab. And so we're not quite there yet. Because we want to make sure that the materials we put out in the world have research evidence, right, that we know that they're actually useful, that we can feel confident about that. But man, we're excited to share those down the road.

So why specifically the emphasis on AAC? Because, you know, there's a lot of well, I mean, I'm not an expert in, in research. But I would think that there's a lot of research based on, you know, peers, because I know that in the research that like peer support, there's evidence for, you know, peer support for inclusion and, and why that's beneficial. So, why, why did you feel like you needed to bring in the ACPs?

Yeah. So I started thinking about this with work in kind of that broader peer support literature, actually, with Eric Carter. And that work was so fun, I really, really enjoyed it, and yet consistently felt like we needed to do more for the students with the most complex support needs. So just think about how much communication and language plays into your relationships, right? It's not that you need language to have a relationship. So I have an infant foster son in my home right now. He's not speaking, right, I have a deep relationship with him without language. So we can relate to one another without language. But as we grow language, the ways that we can relate, deepen and strengthen in really important ways we can talk about things that aren't right here in the environment, right, we can have joint attention about things that are really important to us. And kids who are non speaking need that too. So just because they're not speaking doesn't mean they don't have things to say. And so if we want to help support these, like deepening, strengthening friendships, language becomes really important for that. And so I think that's for me, where AAC comes in is that we've just we got to get them communication access. That's so important. And AAC is a tremendous way to do that. It's not that AAC is better than speech, obviously, right. But we know that AAC can support speech development, too, especially for kids with autism. And so it's really about like getting them access to language right now.

Yeah, I think it's also AAC is such a nice way to give a shared means of communication, I think, oftentimes, peers are not really sure how to communicate or play with the students that we work with. And so introducing AAC into the groups gives that connection point of oh, I can use this, it gives them a tool to try to connect with each other. Have

you ever heard of educators or families being like, no, no, don't touch don't touch the device. Yeah, like? Cuz I think that when I was a classroom teacher, so I taught in public schools for 16 years 13 In the classroom, 33 in like a district support specialist role. So in all of those years, I've definitely been in classrooms where a student has a device, whether they're typing or whether it's picture based, or whether it's low tech, and up here comes and wants to talk with them, and starts messing with their device, and whether that's the teacher or ParaPRO, or whatever. It's like no, no, don't touch it. You know. So, where do we how do we get from? You can't touch the device to it being a shared point of communication.

I've definitely had that issue. variants also, Tim, I think there's a lot of misconceptions around a sea. One of them being that you don't want to disrupt the user's use of it, or whatever it is. But I think it's really important to think about it like learning a new language, if if a student is learning to use AAC, and nobody around them is also using it or modeling it, that's really not an effective way to learn a new language. So I think a lot of it is just shifting our mindset about how we teach AAC use. I think, in the past, there's been a lot of prompting or hand over hand guidance, or only teaching it, to use it for requests and things like that. And what we're looking at is, well, we actually need to be modeling it as much as possible. And the student needs to be seeing it in their environment, all the time and seeing it used in lots of different ways. We actually recently in one of our groups, the student was the one who became a little bit possessive of the device, which was great, because he started to think of it as his. So we can introduce to devices sometimes if that's what's necessary, we're lucky enough to have the means to be able to do that. And no, that's not true in a lot of public schools. But it is an option if that happens. But I think it's just a big part of it is shifting our mindset about how we teach AAC.

Yeah, and I think at that practical level, we've recommended to teams before like, Hey, if you if you can't realistically have two devices, and that student is the one who has ownership over the device, of course, respect that student's ownership, just have like a low tech backup, right, that can still be a really effective way to show that AAC is a normalized way of communicating while still respecting that students wanting, you know, to have ownership over that device.

So I'm assuming you've seen, like, playgrounds where they like, have the big board with the picture icons, and and I think a lot of people think that's a really good thing. And I'm not saying it's not, but I don't, it wasn't a thing when I was an educator. So I wonder if you've seen that to be a beneficial practice and how like someone would practically use it. Like you're out on the playground, you have this big board, you know what I'm talking about? Right? So you had this big board, and you have the, the the picture icons, and you know, some, like visuals for communication? I'm just wondering if, if that's something that you think is how that would be beneficial? Yeah,

I think, you know, maybe it does help support some of the normalization of AAC. Like, I do get excited when I go to like a museum. And I sort of see that there's communication supports in that museum or communication supports in that restaurant, right? I think the more places in our schools and communities that we have visual communication supports, the more normalized they become. And then one is around access, right, like more people know about them, so more kids can get access to it. Because there are so many parents who just don't know that this is an option for their child. That said, I think I am with you, Tim, that like the practicality of a board in a single location on a playground, like I can't imagine children like running over to that board and that one physical location. So I hope that we continue to get a lot more innovative, right, like embedding smaller communication boards in all these stations of the playground might be one small step forward. Because it is hard to carry around a bulky device if you're a kid who loves to run, right. And there are all sorts of things like harnesses and straps and all that. But like, you're a five year old kid who just wants to play with their friends on the playground, like you don't really want to be carrying around this big, bulky device. So I think we have a long way to go and really thinking about really innovative creative ways to, you know, get communication supports in all the places that kids need them.

Yeah, I agree with all of that. I mean, progress is slow. So any, any steps in the direction of providing more access, I think, are positive steps. But I agree with everything that Elizabeth said that, that we have, we still have a ways to go as far as innovation and technology is such a great tool for that.

Let's talk about some of the resources that we can share with our listeners. And so I know that enhancing peer networks is not you know, public facing yet doesn't have a website but there are there any resources that you can point to, for educators and families to use right now in you know, developing relationships for learners with disabilities?

Yeah, thanks for asking that question. Tim. So we've named dropped Eric Carter a few times already. I must be burning out Oh, I had the privilege of working with Eric, gosh, a few years ago now, in partnership with the Thai Center, which if any listeners don't know about the Thai center, it's a federal technical assistance center around inclusive education, and particularly K eight. And so they asked Eric and I to develop some resources that they could put on their website for broad dissemination around the concept of belonging, and then around peer engagement. So there are some tools that I think you'll be able to link to pretty easily. Those belonging guides are one of the things that I'm most excited about. So Eric and I have happened to have so many conversations around this like concept of belonging, and it drives the work that I do, I find it to be really helpful term, even more than inclusion, because we're not used to it right, like inclusion we've been talking about for so long. And belonging is what most of us mean. But when we say that, that's what we mean, it just creates this, this richer understanding of what we're really looking for. It's not dropping a kid in a gen ed class. And so what we did was think about these dimensions of belonging that actually came from some interview or interviews with people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, around what inclusion means for them, these dimensions were sort of developed out of some of those early interviews. And it seems like it starts with presence. But then it moves from presence to being invited and welcomed and known and befriended. And so each of these different dimensions of belonging, we've sort of unpacked around what does it look like in practice? And how can you reflect on it? And how can you help support it? So that's one set of tools. The other is this really cool set of like practice guides, so they are down and dirty? Like, how do we do this? So we invited some of our other favorite scholars who have been doing work around peer supports, and wrote, I don't actually know how many of them there are right now, I'll misquote myself but somewhere around around 10 or so of these guides. So how do you implement peer networks? How do you implement peer support arrangements? How do you implement class wide social emotional learning? And so they're there and ready for you to go and take a look at and see how that might help you support peer engagement in your classrooms?

Yeah, I'm just looking at them right now. And I see that one of the guides is to supporting peer interaction for students who use AAC. Yep. So that seems like really useful for, you know, in regards to this conversation. And I wasn't aware of the the history behind the dimensions of belonging, I think that's really fascinating. Yeah,

so one of the early projects, you know, Eric's been thinking about this concept of belonging for a long time, one of my earliest projects, getting to work with him on it, we interviewed people with intellectual and developmental disabilities around what inclusion meant to them in the context of a faith community. And that was one of the places where we first depicted these dimensions of belonging, they were ever so slightly different, because they were focused on a faith community rather than a school context. And so they've shifted and evolved over time from that project. But that was a big part of shaping, you know, what these meant was not just our own thinking about belonging, but really getting to hear from those voices.

Yeah, well, you know, like, I know that a faith community is certainly different from a school community. But one of the things that, that MCIE When we present on inclusion is where it happens, right? And so and one of the places that happens is in a faith community, right? So there's school, there's neighborhood, there's, there's, you know, where you worship, there's where you work, you know, where you play. So there's all these different places where it happens, but it seems like, like what you're saying about belonging being such a, it's a different word. It's the vocabulary is, is unique enough that people go oh, yeah, I guess that is different. But I think it's really useful to bring it up.

Yeah, I think inclusion almost became like a buzzword for a while. And so I really liked the idea of bringing belonging into it, because I do think it gives people pause. And like makes them think about it in a different way.

We get asked a lot about what inclusion looks like in secondary schools, middle and high school. There are a lot of great videos and examples and books and articles that feature inclusion, especially for learners with more extensive support needs in elementary school. And it's just hard to find stories in secondary, so I'm wondering, in your experience and in the research Just like you're doing, have you seen reciprocal relationships be successful at the secondary level? Yeah,

the answer is definitely yes. So this is actually where I got to kind of get my feet wet and really thinking about research around peer support and relationships was in middle and high schools. And so especially in the context of what we call a peer network intervention and a peer support arrangement, we saw many of those lead to authentic reciprocal relationships. I think one of the things that's really interesting about high school is that it's starting to become normal to be different, right? I see like an increasing attitude in high school that I feel like is going to be so useful for our neurodiverse students who are students with disabilities, about like, sort of finding your finding your people a little bit and like, knowing who you are, and that, like we can celebrate these differences. Middle school is hard, right? Because it's that transition of like coming into that. And so, you know, I think that there's a lot of work that still needs to be done in those settings. Certainly, there is an elementary school too. But there is no reason for us to think that it's not possible. And I can say that I've witnessed it right with my own eyes. And I think one of the things that's hard is that models of intervention in middle and high schools are often around like service learning where it's sort of like get the peers without disabilities to be in like a service oriented class, where they're maybe doing like a reverse inclusion type thing, that that term is weird to me, but you know, like push into the future into this special ed classroom. I think all these programs come from such a well meaning place we want to get kids with without disabilities opportunities together. But anytime we sort of position up here in that helping relationship, but it gets challenging, right, we're not going to lead to reciprocal friendships then. So I think it's really about helping our middle and high school students have meaningful shared activities, both shared learning activities, so things like authentic cooperative learning, and shared social activities, right, making sure that supports are in place for kids with disabilities to be true members of clubs and the band and like all these different things that that form, middle and high school experiences. And so I think that there's actually more similarities than we think with the work that we're doing in elementary schools, like, the things that make a friendship are still true, right? They're true for five year olds, and they're true for 12 year olds, and they're true for 25 year olds, it's meaningful connection, finding ways to realize like we have something a shared experience or a shared connection point. It's engagement and shared activities, like the more time I spend doing something engaging and fun with someone that forms a friendship. And it's time to get to know one another. So of course, that looks different, like we're doing all this toy play in our K three classrooms. Like it's not going to be toy play in middle school or toy play in high school. But there are still really authentic ways to get kids to connect around meaningful activities, my

experiences and not in secondary as much, but I have worked in middle schools a little bit. And I will say, I think there's this tendency that as kids get older, inclusion, people think of it as getting harder, I think, partly because of the gap and academics. I think, partly because in middle schools and high schools, the schedule becomes a beast. And so I do think there's like more creativity that needs to happen with scheduling and thinking about just thinking about it differently valuing that inclusivity more and that like maybe it's not as much are thinking just thinking about it differently that the kids and the peers are still getting something out of those experiences. Because I think that is what happens is it's it, there's becomes this like, larger gap and maybe academics in some ways. And so then people think about it differently, that well, it's not as important or it's not as important as continuing those rigorous academics. And we can't take time away from that and things like that. And so I think people start to think about it differently as kids get older. So it's, it's about continuing to prioritize it and value it.

I've seen, especially at the high school level, where they've tried to have these buddy programs that and I think it really serves as like, well. We can't make that schedule work. It's too hard to include the kids in regular classes. So we're going to have this this buddy program and there's a lot Are there different ways you can do that? But I'm wondering, you know, like, what's your experience with that? Do you think that they help or hinder? Or maybe it just depends?

Yeah, I think that's a good question. I, there's such a diversity of programs in this area, I don't have personal experience being a part of them or having them in a school that I've worked in, necessarily. And I know that they've been around, I think a lot of them have been around for a long time at this point. And it probably evolved in different ways. But I do think it's important to remember that inclusivity isn't a program. It's a mindset. It's a shift that it's hopefully a mindset that shifts our day to day experiences. And so no one program can be inclusive or non inclusive, just like no one school can be inclusive or non inclusive, they're always going to be both in some ways. And so all that being said, I do think there are some things that are important to think about when we're thinking about these kinds of programs. One is what Elizabeth already mentioned that we really need to focus on building authentic friendships, and that when we have these kinds of helping programs or buddy programs, that it can inadvertently reinforce these helping relationships where this the student without a disability thinks of their role solely as helping the student with a disability. And that's not really creating a reciprocal, authentic friendship. So I think that is a risk. The other thing is just thinking about building capacity. If we really want students to experience belonging all throughout the day and be integrated into the fabric of their school communities, one program can't do that. So it's really about building capacity with the staff, with families as well. So that that can happen. And I think one program could help with those things, certainly, but it can't do all of it. It's really about a mindset shift in the school.

And I think I'll just add on, Aaron and I are, have had conversations about our own project in that right way. Right, like we're thinking about this enhancing peer network project. It's a it's a program, right, it is not by itself, what schools need to be inclusive. Is it helpful? We hope so. And I think our you know, our data that we're collecting are suggesting that it is, but one one program isn't the answer, right? It's about really thinking about how to build this capacity throughout the day, just just like Aaron said.

So I have an example to share with you. And I want your feedback. So I was very fortunate enough to visit see home high school in Bellingham, Washington, they're part of a larger push by the OSP, I'm gonna get that name wrong. But basically, it's the State Superintendent office in Washington. A larger push toward inclusive practices across the state. And so see home high school is a is a model demonstration site. And so when I toured the campus and and we visited classrooms and stuff, there was one classroom where it was a life skills class, but not in the way that probably you would think that it was a life skills class. So it was a life skills class for all learners, for all kids. So students with and without disabilities, were learning life skills together, planning projects, going on trips in the community, learning how to do things, you know, you wouldn't you would want to do when you're 17, and 18 years old. And it was such a refreshing take on the life skills class, because and I remember talking with the principal afterwards, and saying, you know, when did when was the shift? And so, it was just a few years ago, I think they started before the pandemic, but traditionally, high schools will have life skills class only for learners with, you know, more extensive support needs, and they're only with kids with those kinds of disabilities. And, you know, they're learning, you know, how to do laundry and how to, you know, clean and stuff, you know, stuff like that, not necessarily things that, you know, they may be beneficial, but is it really stuff they need to be learning in school, right. So, I was wondering if you had ever heard of that. anywhere in your you know, in your experience working with schools and kind of what your reaction to that is.

Yeah, I love it, Tim. I don't know of a specific school like you do. So it's really cool to get to hear about like that tangibly happening. I think my only frame of reference is like how I'm trying to train up new pre service teachers. So I teach a class on general education access. And it used to be called Teaching functional academics. And so we've talked a lot about like, what is functional? And what is academic? And why in the world? Are we splitting these into two different buckets, like these are literally the same thing. But anyway, but we've talked about this idea that like of College and Career Readiness a lot, we lean into that language, because like being college and career ready also implies like that you are able to have all these life skills that you're describing, right? And so of course, we want these things for all kids, it's not just kids with disabilities who need access to these opportunities to learn. And if we want to have an inclusive world after school, we have to have an inclusive world in school. Like it's not that it's going to magically become inclusive when kids graduate, right? Like, it only gets harder. And so I love this way of thinking about like, universally designing opportunities for kids to get academics and life skills, which turns out are actually pretty intersecting anyway.

Yeah, I love this example. It's so cool to hear about and it made me think about what we know about curriculum is that students learn better when we connect curriculum to their lives at any age. And so why can't that be happening for students with and without disabilities at the same time, like why wouldn't they value the same types of skills that are going to bring them independence and confidence and life and so I just I that's such a great example. I love that you shared that.

Awesome. Yeah, it was it was fantastic. And I'm so I'm so excited for the state of Washington. Because they, they have an emphasis on it when we come back the mystery question.

So what was one thing you begged your parents for as a kid and we finally gave it to you?

A boombox that's mine. So man, I wanted a boombox. It wasn't even it was like a loose like tiny little bit Max, not like boombox boombox, but I could I don't even know what I played on it, but I just wanted to play my CDs in my room.

Yeah, some listeners are gonna be like, what's the CD?

They don't know how good they have it.

Oh, my goodness. I know. I know. All right.

Oh, I mean, maybe it's because Alyssa said boombox that I was thinking about one of those like portable CD players. And I just because my eye, we traveled a lot for sports. And I just wanted to be able to listen to one of those like portable CD players. And I remember that my case for my parents getting it for me was like, I won't bother you so much when we're in the car if you just get me this thing.

And they're like, that sounds good. Oh, man,

what about you, Tim?

Well, um, the first thing that came to mind was, was the first Nintendo. And so I think I got it when I was. CES was late 80s. So yeah, I probably bugged my parents every day, you know, to get something and they're like, nope, nope, nope. And then they completely surprised me for Christmas. And so I remember, you know, I had with the family was over. And you know, we're all opening presents. And I think I think my aunt or uncle have given me a present. It was really small. And I opened it up. And it was like, the game cartridge. Right? It was like supermario or something. I'm like, Oh, well, thanks. But I don't like I don't have anything to use this with, you know. And then I remember my mom or my dad was like, like, oh, no, no, no, you shouldn't have opened that. So then I went to the other room and they they had kicked gotten me the system so I felt pretty good. But I know that I bugged them a lot. And my kids have bugged me for the same types of Thanks, Elizabeth Biggs and Aaron Turner, thank you so much for being on inclusive podcast.

Thank you so much. This was fun. Thank

you. Yeah, this was great. We really appreciate it.

That time means it's free time. This week, I'm going to rant a little bit. Honestly, I was gonna let this go. But then a friend of mine posted on threads and it caught my eye. And then this morning, I saw another post from a satirical website, and it just is driving me completely bonkers. So here we go. This week. This is from Fox News. By the way. The Federal Aviation Administration FAA is facing criticism and concern from both politicians and the public over a diversity hiring initiative that actively recruits workers with, quote, severe intellectual, unquote disabilities, quote, psychiatric, unquote, issues and other disabilities. All I ask is that the FAA hire individuals based on who is most qualified for the position, and who will best protect our airspace ensuring that we are all safe. Representative Jeff Van Drew, Republican from New Jersey, who serves on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee told Fox News digital on Monday, that is the job of the FAA. It is not their job to be politically correct. Fox News digital reported Sunday that the FAA is website details a, quote diversity and inclusion unquote hiring plan aimed to boost diversity including those with quote severe unquote disabilities. At the agency. individuals with targeted or severe disabilities are the most underrepresented segment of the federal workforce. The FAA site states before it details, the targeted disabilities that the agency is actively working to recruit. Okay, I won't read the whole thing. But I do want to add this quote from someone from a group called do no harm that was interviewed from this piece, Dr. Stanley Goldfarb. Unfortunately, Goldfarb said, identity politics is creating opportunities for so called oppressed groups by lowering standards for entry into those fields and thereby endangering the safety of those which is designed to serve some endeavors simply do not lend themselves to identity politics, he added. Okay, deep breath. If you are an inclusion advocate, this most likely will make your blood boil. It did mine. Of course, of course, of course, we should have qualified candidates working for the FAA. Very simply, the mockery coming from critics about equal employment opportunities for people with disabilities, especially those with extensive support needs. Just goes to show how difficult it is to change ablest mindsets, and why it can be so difficult for some educators to see the possibility and benefits of inclusive education for learners with extensive support needs. I don't even want to tell you this, but since I started it, I will. This morning I was scrolling through threads. And I saw posts from the satirical website, the Babylon B if you know, you know. Here's the headline, and sincere apologies for the ableist language. Delta introduces new short plane for Special Needs pilots. I'm not going to elaborate. I think you get the idea.

Okay, that's it for this week's episode. Love thinking cluesive. Here are a few ways to let us know. Rate us on Spotify or leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Honestly, I don't think it does anything for discoverability of our podcasts. But it does help when people click on the show either on Apple podcasts or Spotify, and they see that there are recent reviews. So if you have five minutes, it'd be great. And if you're listening to us on Spotify, check out the q&a prompt in the app and leave us a response and maybe we'll share it on the socials. Another way that you can show us your love is to donate to MCIE with a one time or monthly donation so that we can keep making things inclusive in our newest podcast series, inclusion stories. To donate, go to bi t.li/mcie e dash, donate or visit MCIE.org Are you ready to elevate your educational landscape with MCIE partner with us and shaping educational systems that foster high levels of engagement, a sense of belonging and evidence based instruction where each learner success is our shared goal? Learn more@mcie.org thinking cluesive is written, edited, sand designed, mixed and mastered by me to Vegas and is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Original Music by miles credits. Additional music from melody. Thanks for your time and attention and remember inclusion always works. Anything else you wanted to share before we wrap up?

Oh man, you put us on the spot. Like I don't know.

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