Hello and welcome to so you got a Live Set degree episode one we're your host Frieda and Lisa to life I undergrad students try to navigate our future careers. Today we're talking to character if it's about market access in the pharmaceutical industry.
Kara is a senior manager of market access aka reimbursement at Gilead Sciences Mississauga. She works to get pharmaceuticals covered under insurance policies. She completed her undergrad degree in nutritional and nutraceutical Sciences at the University of Guelph. After that, she entered the master of biotechnology programme at the University of Toronto, where she learned about the intersection of science and business. Thank you for joining us today, Kara.
Thanks for having me. This is my first experience on a podcast. So really, really excited to to chat with you both. And what a neat idea for you guys to take this on for for life science. Yeah.
Yeah, we're gonna ask you some really tough questions. So our first difficult question is just like maybe tell us like what your job is? Because a lot of people wouldn't we say market access, they don't really know what that means. So yeah, just like what do you do? Like, what's your role?
Yeah, that's a great question. And it's, it's, it's a tough one to explain. And I think when I came into the pharmaceutical industry, I didn't know much about this space, or what this job entailed. And it's something that I kind of just learned as I went, but in a nutshell, really, in my role, so as you mentioned, it can be called either market access or reimbursement, the terms are relatively interchangeable. And essentially, I work with health technology agencies, the provincial drug plans, private payer bodies, to essentially achieve public reimbursement or private reimbursement for our drug products across Canada. So that entails a lot of different pieces. But really, the ultimate intent is for our drug products to have reimbursement so that when you or, or someone in your family would go to the pharmacy to fill a prescription, if that drug product is quote, unquote, free of charge, that essentially means that the drug product has been reimbursed and is paid for by the provincial drug programmes or by your your respective drug plan. So in a nutshell, that's that's kind of what reimbursement entails.
Right? So it's basically that you're working with either private or public like government insurances to make sure that the products that your company creates, like the drugs, they get covered so that people can use them. And essentially, it can be profitable. So like, So you mentioned that you work with both public and the private sides.
Yeah, so I actually have a colleague that covers the private side of things that would be like your sunlight for your Manulife for great Westlife, for example, those are some of the bigger insurance providers. I work on the public side. So I would work with the provincial drug programmes. So for example, in Ontario would be the Ontario drug programme. And I would negotiate our drug prices with the drug programme in order to achieve access for all of our patients for their respective therapy periods that we cover, I feel yet and that would be the same across the industry at different companies as well.
Thanks. That's a succinct summary.
Do you want to just go over like how what is your day to day look like? What kind of work do you do on a daily weekly basis?
For sure. So in my current role, I'm responsible for both our HIV portfolio as well as our inflammation portfolio. And so the role is relatively similar across the two different therapy areas, but of course differs depending on where the drug product is in its in its lifecycle. So last year, I worked predominantly on an HIV file that now has achieved public reimbursement. And so I've switched gears a little bit to the rheumatoid arthritis space, which is, we're just preparing for launch right now. And so what that would look like on a day to day basis is there's a lot of interaction with my cross functional team. So that would be people from the commercial team and the marketing team, the regulatory team, the medical team, so there's a lot of different people involved with with bringing these drug products to market and ensuring alignment across the organisation. So we would be sharing insights across those functions. I also day to day would be working on our pricing strategies. So our list price, which is the public price that you would see on a provincial formulary, or the net price, which is the confidential price that we as the manufacturer would negotiate with each of the different drug plans. So I would be doing analyses on that to figure out you know, what makes sense for that given therapy or that given products, given the guidelines that we have to adhere to? I would also work on brand planning with the team. So we're currently actually In the brand planning cycle right now for 2021. So what we would do in that and what I would do day to day is really figure out what are the different strategies that will ultimately result in success in 2021. And once we've outlined our strategies and our overall brand plan, what are the different tactics that I'm responsible for in order to deliver on that strategy in order to achieve success in 2021, and beyond. And there's a lot of other different ad hoc pieces that would occur day to day, for example, right now and preparing a submission for our health Technology Agency. And so as part of that, I would be working on different components of our submissions, such as the clinical summary for our product. So looking at the value proposition that this product provides for patients as well as for payers, we will be putting together our models, so our health economic model and budget impact model. And there's a lot more that goes behind that as well. So it's a very diverse job, there's a lot of different pieces involved. And that's really why I enjoy this space. And it's it's a function that I've stayed within, in the pharmaceutical industry for the last few years now, because it's really every day is different. There's always something different depending on the product, you're working on the therapy area, you're working within the people that you're working with, the different patient groups we work with. So very diverse, every day is new every day is exciting. And that's really why I enjoy working for reimbursement space.
Yeah, I was like making a list of things as you were like talking about, like, the different things you do. And I was like, Oh, yeah, that's a lot. So yeah, like like pricing. It's like a lot of like work in teams like making models.
And I think that's one of the biggest things you say, you know, working in teams, I think that's a huge part that I love about this role. And I think a lot of different roles within the pharma industry work within teams, but particularly in my role, because I've touched so many different functions and require input from some different functions, that it's really a collaborative environment. And I work with some really great people across the different teams.
And so for kind of background for everyone listening, Kara is actually my mentor, as part of the scholarship programme that i n slash was, the MN slash was in for the 2019 to 2020. Like, kind of, like season year. And so as part of that, I was able to go to Gilly and kind of learn a bit about, like, kind of like the drug pipeline, but more of what happens after all the hard science, like more of like the administrative stuff, and like marketing and working with insurance. So we thought it would be cool if you could like, maybe walk the listeners through that, like, just talk about, you know, like, like, just like, if you I know, it's a lot to do, but if you can just like like really quickly outline to your knowledge, like from like step zero to like step 100, how a drug gets like approved to be used.
Yeah, and you're right, it's a long process that takes many, many years. So I'll tell you the abbreviated version, that kind of within my scope. So of course, as you know, there's a lot of research and development that goes into every drug product that comes to market. And for every drug that comes to market, there's hundreds that don't come to market. But once you get through there with the research and development, the clinical trials begin, there's several years worth of clinical trials that would take place prior to a drug being filed to the regulatory agencies. And once the drug is filed to the regulatory agencies. So for example, for us, that would be Health Canada. The product then goes through a review with Health Canada, which takes about 12 months, depending if it's a standard review will take about a year. And while that's taking place, in my role in reimbursement in parallel, I would be putting together a submission dossier for each ta or the health technology assessment agency that would review the drug product from a reimbursement perspective. So those two streams are happening in parallel around the 12 month mark where the drug product would ultimately let's assume that it achieves the Health Canada approval from that point. Now the drug can be marketed in Canada. So now it can be made available to patients and it could be marketed and sold by the manufacturer. And then following that approval is when I would receive the recommendation from the health pathology agency to say essentially, yes, this product should be reimbursed given its clinical and economic profile or no, it should not be reimbursed. And so assuming that that would be a positive outcome, we would then proceed through to negotiations with what's called the pan Canadian pharmaceutical Alliance or the PCP For short, we would negotiate the confidential net price for a drug product. If successful, we would then reach an agreement collectively with the provinces and territories. And then at that point, once the contracting process is finished, the drug product would be made available on formulary, and patients would have the drug product paid for by their respective drug plan, whether that's private or public. So that even in and of itself, post approval can can be quite a lengthy process. And there's years and years of work that go into it before it's even filed with the regulator. So it's a very lengthy process to bring drugs to market, a lot of people involved to make that happen.
Yeah, and it's interesting how you mentioned that there are like, hundreds of drugs that don't get made. We're gonna circle back to that at the end. Because I have a question about that for later.
Yeah. And as I was listening to earlier, when you're mentioning all the different types of tasks that you do in your day to day, I was kind of thinking like, I don't know if I'm qualified to do any of those things, even though I'm, like, nearing my undergrad degree. So I was just wondering, like, what, when you were like, first thing you asked when you first got the job? Like, how much do you feel like you had to learn on the job? Or like, how prepared Did you feel before going in?
That's a fantastic question. And hopefully, my my current and prior managers are not listening to this. But I relatively knew nothing when I started my roles. And it's really, it's, it's the kind of job I feel like that you learn once you're there. And, you know, I tell a lot of people that when I was starting out, and I was going through school, I didn't quite know what I wanted to do, where I wanted to end up. And I stumbled upon the pharmaceutical industry through my master's programme. And even when I was in my master's programme, I didn't quite know what different roles within the pharma industry would entail. And it's really something that I learned through my internship, and then following my internship, and once I changed into the reimbursement space, but it's not something that I learned in school, necessarily, it's really something that you figure out and you learn as you go with your peers in your day to day job. And I think it just takes a lot of curiosity and a lot of willingness to learn and to just kind of dive right in and ask a lot of questions. And listen, and, and really just kind of tackle it as you get there. And, and that's kind of the approach that I took. And it's worked quite well to this point. And, and I think, you know, it really comes down to a lot of the skills that you learn in school, not so much, not so much the content that you're learning in school, but the skills that you're learning in school, you know, as I mentioned before, teamwork is such an important part. And that's something that you learned throughout school, working on team projects, collaborating with different people from different departments from, you know, different levels of experience. And that's such a transferable skill into this industry. So it really does come down to the skills and not so much the knowledge that So absolutely, you would, you would have no problem jumping right in and for and figuring it out as you go.
Yeah, that's like, that's, that's reassuring to hear. Cuz, yeah, I think I'm free to I think I'd like to briefly talk to you about this. But like, I often get the sensation that because, you know, like we've been in school for basically our entire lives. And in school, you don't do like real projects, like you're not really filing a report that's going to be sent to the government or anything like that. So like, I kind of feel like I've never really done any like, quote unquote, real work. But yeah, so like, it's reassuring to hear that you learn a lot on the job. Yeah, I learned all of it on the job. So it's definitely. That's cool. That's cool. And like, since you mentioned your master's programme. That's kind of like a good segue into like, because we wanted to ask you about your education, since part of this podcast is like, what can you do with the life side degree and that's like, you kind of had a degree in that field. So we were wondering if you could just talk a bit about like, why you went into the undergrad, you did like what you were thinking at the time and just maybe tell us a bit about your journey of how you went from like early undergrad to like going into your masters and then ending up where you are now.
Yeah, absolutely. I took a pretty straightforward path, I guess. Now looking back, but at the time, to be honest, when I went into my undergraduate degree, and even my master's degree, I didn't quite know what I wanted to do. And I think that's similar for a lot of people that are in undergrad degrees. So, you know, I guess that's something I learned after the fact that you're not alone. And a lot of people are still really trying to figure it out as they go, which is so so common. But as I went into my undergrad degree, as you mentioned, I did a Bachelor of Science, I think right out the gates. My initial idea was that I would be Doctor like many others that go into a science degree out of high school, I pursued that a little bit. I did write the standardised tests, I did, you know, a little bit close to, unfortunately a bit of a grind. So I did I did think about medicine I learned pretty early on though I think it was probably at the beginning of my second year of undergrad that I decided that probably wasn't the best path for me, I just something kind of clicked and it just didn't seem like the right path. I didn't necessarily know what was the right path, but I was gonna try and figure that out. And then as I approached my third year, I was really fortunate to make some really strong connections with some of my professors. In some courses that were a lot more hands on applied smaller class sizes, I really got to know my peers and my my instructors. And they opened some doors for me and really helped me see what else was out there beyond, you know, your typical medical school or dental school. And so I had some really fantastic experience and a few different labs, working with a few different professors. And that showed me that although I really enjoyed working in a research lab and working with the people that I worked with, that wasn't something that I wanted to do long term. And so that was something I learned along the way that it wasn't quite the right path for me. And so when I was in my, I think my third year, maybe going into my fourth year, I stumbled upon the master of biotechnology programme, which again, I didn't know much about at the time, but I did a bit of research and learned that the master biotechnology programme is intended for science students, you have to have a Bachelor of Science degree in order to enter the programme, which was reassuring for me because it would be a lot of people that I thought would be very like minded, it would be very science oriented, but it kind of it combined business with science. So it was kind of like MBA degree, but for science students, which which really appealed to me at the time. And so I applied for that programme, and was really fortunate to be accepted. And so I pursued the master of biotechnology programme after my undergraduate degree. And as part of the biotech programme, it's a two year a two year long programmes course based. So the first about eight or nine months, you're you're in a lab, you're doing courses, you're learning introductory, the business courses, accounting. And then at the end of that year, you apply to different internships within the pharmaceutical industry. And so that was kind of my entryway into the pharmaceutical industry. And again, didn't quite know what I wanted to do within the industry. But I knew that regardless of the path I took, it would be a good learning experience. And you can always move around. Once you're there, you just kind of have to get your foot in and start to gain the experience. And so I completed an internship in the clinical development department at a pharmaceutical company where I was essentially managing the day to day operations of clinical trials. And so I did that for a bit of time for my internship, and then following that is when I transitioned into reimbursement, which is what I still do today. Uh huh.
And now what that wasn't a gilia that was like, at, like a previous company you were at, right? Exactly,
yeah, that would that was at a bigger firm a company for my internship. And I see the connection with like, the research too, because of the clinical trials. Exactly. In it, it was a very operational type role, which at the time I thought would really fit with my my skills. And you know, my interest, I'm a very kind of OCD type person, I'm very organised and very, that's just kind of the way that I think and so that really worked well for me for my internship, and I thought it was a really, really good fit. But then I decided that I, once I finished that internship, I decided that I wanted to look more to the commercial side of the business and see what happens after a drug product gets approved, and how does the drug product actually make its way to patients and what happens when it's on the market? And so that's kind of how I ended up making the transition over to the commercial side of the business and I haven't turned back since then.
Yeah, no, it's I think it's funny because I think of it like as a person walking along the line and you seem to have transition more from like, like, slowly from like the hard science to then like the clinical trials to then like the post like, like more like legislative ish, like kind of work. So that's kind of cool. Like, yeah, thanks for summarising that for us.
Yeah, and it's funny because I've told a few people that when I when I was starting out in my internships, I didn't quite know what all the different roles within the pharma industry entailed or what they looked like, but for whatever reason, I decided I had no interest applying to any of the roles within reimbursement or pricing. For no real reason, it was just kind of feeling at the time that that's not quite what plan just was. And so it's so fun looking back that that's exactly where I am today. And so I think it really just goes to show that, you know, if you take the opportunities that are in front of you, and you really take the time to be curious and to network and to meet people and learn about their experiences, and you never really know where it's gonna take you. And that's kind of the path that I followed to where I am today. So, yeah,
yeah. And kind of related to the note about not really knowing what kind of roles there are in the pharma industry, I feel like we're kind of in that situation. And a lot of people like our peers, and our classes are very much like, it's kind of murky, like, what are the various available roles in kind of biotech or in pharma? So would you mind like elucidating, if there's any other like, like, besides market access, if there's other like, kind of similar roles that you were thinking would be suited for you at that time?
Yeah, so when I was looking to apply different internships, I was mostly interested in the clinical trial management, which is what I ended up doing. And I was also looking at Regulatory Affairs. So that would be part of the team that would be putting together the files to submit the drug product to Health Canada for for a marketing authorization or for approval. But then there's a lot of other roles predominantly on the commercial side of the business. So whether that's working within the marketing team sales team, the market access or reimbursement team, which is where I am now.
Sorry, it's primarily people who have more like science backgrounds, or is it like, most of people coming in with business backgrounds, or? Yeah, it's
a real mix, I find there's some people that I've seen that work in very marketing oriented roles, and they largely have business or economics backgrounds. But some of them also have science backgrounds. And and conversely, I've also seen people that have, you know, a science background and go into a more business oriented role. So it's, it's not, it really doesn't make too much of a difference, I would say, depending on the undergrad degree that you have. It's more about the experience. And I think it's just really about learning, learning the job once you're there. And, you know, even if you're not a science students, but you come into a pharmaceutical role, that's, you know, you kind of have to know the science of the drugs that you're working with, right? It's something that you can learn when you're there. So, yeah, you don't necessarily have to be too technical, but, but there definitely are some people that are there's some people that have PhDs as well within the medical department. So it's it's a pretty mixed bag, I would say.
Let us, let us know if you're not comfortable with answering this. But I was just curious, like, have you ever had to hire someone because I know, it says on your LinkedIn, at least, that you're like a senior manager. So I was wondering if you if you've ever had to, like hire someone to be a part of your team? And like, we're like, even if you haven't had to do that, like kind of, what are the things that an employer would look for? If they were hiring, like, in general, in the pharma industry, or like, for something similar to your role?
Yeah, I think again, it all comes back to really the skills that you learn in school. So someone that's a team player, and can collaborate well with others, is such a strong asset for anyone coming into this space. Someone that's really curious and willing to learn and can really manage themselves without too much direction. But at the same time, you know, you could ask questions, if needed. So someone else was self starter, I would say What else? Those are kind of the big ones. I mean, it really comes down to fit for us, the people that I've, you know, been part of, of interviews for people that are joining our team, it's, it's really a lot about fit, and not so much about the degree you have, I think there's a certain baseline, that's that's expected. So a science degree would absolutely be required. But beyond that, it's more about the experiences you've had, maybe different jobs you've had before you're entering this space, even if it's, you know, seemingly small jobs that you might have had throughout your undergrad degree. It's really about what you learn from those experiences. You know, your organisational skills, you know, your communication skills, Are you someone that's able to comfortably present in front of a large group of people or to senior management. And so it's really more about those skills that you may have picked up in school or just from jobs along the way throughout your your school years.
All right. And I was just wondering in your role right now, like what are some things that you What are your favourite things about the job or position and then what do you find most challenging or difficult for you?
I think the part that I like the most about my job, Dad, I've said this so many times, I feel like I'm being repetitive, but it's the people that I work with.
I mean, that's a really good answer. If you like who you're working with, that's just great.
Exactly. And I think people are so important, and that's something that I've underestimated. But that I've really come to realise in in recent times, is the people that you work with really make the job so much more enjoyable. And we're spending so much time with each other every day, even remotely through this COVID period right now, where we're on all day, every day together. And so it really makes such a significant difference for the job. So the people that I work with is number one on the list for sure. And then as cliche as it sounds, I really do you love what I do. And I feel like the role that I have makes such a significant impact on people's lives. You know, particularly in my role when I'm working for to gain or to achieve reimbursement for HIV drug products. It's such a life changer for people to be able to have access to these medications that might have challenges that prevent them from being able to get access to these medications. And, you know, some of the stories that we hear just, it's it's very impactful, and it really resonates with me, and it kind of keeps me going. And, again, as cliche as it sounds, it really, it's very fulfilling and that it makes it all worthwhile.
Yeah, like, Are you are you able to, like share any like no, like, obviously, without names or anything? But are you able to share any stories just to like, be more like, how does? Like, do you know anything about the statistics of like how drug usage for like a particular medication changes? You've it's not covered under like a public or private health plan?
Yeah, no, it's a great question. And it really, again, it depends on the therapy areas. So for example, if we look at HIV, the the public private split for the HIV market is roughly at 20. So about 80% of the market for HIV drug products, patients would be covered by public drug plan, and about 20% would be covered by a private drug plan. And so if you look at that space, having public access, which is, which is what my role is, is really fundamental to having success with that drug product and to have physicians prescribe that drug product for their patients, because they know that it has coverage, and they know that people can access it. versus if I was unsuccessful achieving reimbursement, which has happened in the past. That would be a drug product that would not necessarily be prescribed as much just given the fact that patients wouldn't have coverage for that drug. And so you might look to another drug in that space that does have coverage. So yeah, having having public or private coverage for your drug product is really critical in order to ensure that patients can access the drug and that physicians can prescribe that drug for their patients knowing that it will be paid for. And that would be the case across all therapeutic areas where there's wherever there's a number of options within that given space, you could you could look at any therapy area asthma, for example, you would be more inclined to to take a drug that would be paid for that has coverage, whether that's public or private. Yeah, so it makes a really, really difficult difference.
Yeah, I think I can actually personally relate to that as well. Because, you know, like I've seen doctors for, I don't know if I've mentioned but like, like chronic pain stuff. And I remember my rheumatologist one of the things he asked me, he was like, Okay, well, I want you to try like this drug, but it's not covered under the plan. And he asked me, like, can you afford it? And I was like, well, let's try it. But, ya know, it's interesting to know that like, that's like, and like, I think that's something that I've started to think about more in the past year and two. And like, I actually, like, was listening to an interesting lecture about as well, like, a couple of weeks ago, but kind of just about how health policy and like public perception totally impacts like how we use, like, our scientific knowledge, like it's not all just like, we're gonna make like the best decision based on like, you know, like the science we have, like, there's also a lot of factors like cost and like how people like view drugs and
absolutely, yeah, you raise a good point cost is absolutely a consideration. And it's something that physicians think that is something that patients think about. And as you mentioned, it's something that you've thought about in the past. And so if there's anything that we can do in our roles to really, you know, minimise the barriers for patients or physicians to be able to access drug products, that's ultimately the goal.
We say you're looking for Like anecdotes before, and this is kind of, I guess, related, but my dad's actually part of a drug trial right now. And for his arthritis. Why? Yeah. So he's like, Whoa, yeah, he's in the very late stages. So right now he's getting it for free.
It's not nearly as I honestly don't know.
Wow,
it's like crazy how good it's like working for him and stuff like that. But the thing is, like, he definitely can't afford it. If it's not, like covered under insurance. So it's like,
oh, how does that how does that work? Like, does he stay on the drug after the trial period is over right
now? They haven't said anything like that. So um, yeah, we don't know yet. Wow.
That's so weird. Yeah. Well, that's great to hear that it's working so well for him. Yeah.
That's cool. And I guess, like, kind of along the same line of asking slightly tough questions. So the department like the pharmaceutical industry, in general has definitely been in the news lately, and like, the past couple years, or maybe just in general. And I know that like some people, our age has biases, because we read the news, like, you know, like, pharmaceutical agency, axe has just raised the price of this, like life saving drug by like, you know, like, 10,000%, that kind of thing. So and you mentioned, like, how part of the reason you enjoy your work is because you like see the positive impact it has. So we were kind of just wondering if you could speak to a bit about like, just like, like, how you like the role like how you feel that like pharmaceutical industries, like help society, or like, just kind of like their morality, especially, and like you mentioned that, like, for every job that's made, there are hundreds that don't get made. So if you could just explain like a bit about like, the pricing of drugs and like, yeah, just kind of like, the more I do, like, I don't know if that makes any sense. Let me know if you need me to clarify. Yeah, I know, there's a lot in that question. And I guess, yeah,
in simple terms, it's a complicated process. But in simple terms, you know, a lot of the media that we see really comes out of the states, which has very different policies relative to what we see. And so it's a, it's a bit of a different case. But in Canada, we do have a pricing rate regulator called the pmprb, which you've probably read about in the news recently, that does have control over list pricing. And so there, there are absolutely rules in place that kind of govern the way that we are able to price our medicines relative both to the class of medicine. So if there's existing products in that class, you would be priced relative to those, as well as your price relative to a basket of international competitor countries, same product. So there are pricing controls in place to ensure that that medicines are priced appropriately. And then that's from a list price perspective, from a net price perspective, we do negotiate in order to achieve access on formulary. So even beyond what the public consumer would see, there are further discounts that are taken in order to ensure that the drugs considered to be affordable for drug plans to pay for and for patients to have access to. So there's a lot that goes on in order to achieve that. Yeah, so hopefully that answers your question.
Yeah, like so. Yeah. So basically, in Canada, like, unlike the states, it's more difficult or at least, like there are rules so that companies can't like suddenly increase the medication by like, a lot. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And, like, kind of like, I guess, like the second half of the question. You mentioned earlier, again, how for every drug that is made, like there are hundreds that don't get made. So like, Can you just like elaborate a bit upon that, and like maybe just talk about how like, the risks and pharmaceut, like the financial risks that pharmaceutical companies take to come out with, like, like working products.
Yeah, and I think that that's something that, you know, isn't spoken about maybe enough in the public is that for every drug that comes to market that either cures a disease or significantly, treats the disease or helps patients, regardless of what their product is, there's a number of products for that same therapeutic area that have gone through clinical trials, they've gone through research and development for many, many years before that drugs eventually come to market that don't achieve success. So you know, the drug product may be in phase one clinical trials, and you don't quite see the benefit that you saw prior to that and so that that programme would be suspended. But even if it was suspended in phase one trials, there's already been significant investment, both from $1 perspective as well as from a resource perspective that would have gone into that. And we've seen drug products that have made it all the way to phase three trials, which is the time when we would be filing for marketing authorization adult Make it through phase three trials because they don't necessarily meet the endpoints of that clinical study. And so you know it, there's a lot that goes into getting a product to market before the public sees that product come to market. And it's a significant investment by the pharmaceutical industry in order to get to that point. And there's hundreds and hundreds of molecules that don't make it for every one that does. So it's a lot of time and investment. And so when we do get products that come to market, it's, it's quite an achievement. And if there's a lot of work that have gone has gone into it
by that point. Yeah. It's like not even just money. It's like time, because it's now years and years. I actually think it's interesting how it's kind of like movies. Because if you think so, like big companies like, Listen, I don't know, movie companies, but I'm going to marvel is that, I don't know, they make things. Like they can afford to take risks, you know, like, they can afford to make a movie that loses 5 million, because if they make a few, there's probably going to be one that like, makes 20 million. And it's kind of like that, I feel like with pharmaceutical industries, where like, because they're so big, they can afford to take these risks. Whereas like, if they were like a very small like company, they wouldn't be able to like invest like 10 years. So that's kind of an advantage of like, you know, like, I guess being a larger company.
Yeah, no, that is like, that is a good analogy to make. And you know, that we could talk for days about this. But I think that really comes back to the pricing discussion, we were have we were having, which is, you know, there needs to be a fair price for a drug product in order not only to recuperate the costs for bringing that product to market and making it through Phase One, two, and three clinical trials and all of the research and development, but also to recover the cost for the drugs that didn't necessarily make it to market. And in order to be able to reinvest in research and development in order to achieve the next product a few years from now that will come through the pipeline, and that will eventually make it so it's a constant cycle of once a drug product makes it worse. We were already working on the next one. So yeah, there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes, we could talk for days.
Yeah, it's really interesting, too, with, like all the vaccine talk right now, a lot of the issues are just like supply chain, but it's not even just like, the actual science itself. For COVID. Yeah. Yeah, I'm kind of moving away from you know, the nitty gritty of the pharmaceutical industry. Have a bit about your career and profession. If you were to kind of go through this process again, is there anything that you would change about how you pursued this career or this role that you currently have? Oh, that's a great question. No,
I don't think so. And I, as I said earlier, I think for me, the path that I took, you know, if you were to ask me five years ago, where I thought I would be, this is absolutely not what I would have said. But it's really just, it's been a result of some, you know, networking and different opportunities that I've pursued that have kind of presented themselves as I went along my career journey. And, again, if I was to chart this out, I would have never guessed that I would be here and reimbursement today. But I think it's just a result of of meeting the right people, and really putting in a lot of work to explore different opportunities at different times, and being curious to learn more about different different areas within the space within the industry. So no, I wouldn't change anything,
I think.
I would hope that I would end up right back where I am today, because I do find this, this job. So interesting. And it's exciting. It's every day is different. And you never quite know what's what's around the corner. So yeah, I wouldn't. I really wouldn't.
Yeah, I think I'm hearing you talk about how much you really like the job that and the role that you're in right now. It's really reassuring to me, because I think everyone around like our age right now is kind of like questioning what, you know, their original career decisions and things like that. So yeah, it's really nice to just hear that, you know, you're you ended up in a place that you really enjoy now. So that's really reassuring. Kind of along those lines, what kind of advice would you give to any budding lifelong student right now who's either interested in your profession or just kind of, you know, trying to make a good career?
Yeah, the first thing I would say is to not worry if you don't have you know, your next one or two or three years figured out and you don't quite know where you want to be yet. I can absolutely relate. I was in that same position throughout my undergraduate degree and you'll find out after the fact that a lot of other people are in that same position. You kind of feel like it's just you but it's really not And so, you know, just I think you have to be patient, I think a really big piece of advice I would give to people and I would give to myself if I were to go back in time as well is to just keep your options open. You don't necessarily have to have it all figured out, even when you're graduating from undergrad, you know, if you can keep your options open and continue your education to ensure that you have that baseline education that will allow you to really pursue whatever career path you ultimately end up pursuing, and network with people to find out what other opportunities there are, whether it's in a space that you know, that you absolutely want to work in, or maybe you'll learn something that you didn't quite know about. And you'll end up following a completely different career path. It's all about keeping your options open. It's all about networking with people to find out what those options even are. I think that would be my biggest piece of advice. And, you know, opportunities will present if you if you meet the right people, and you speak with enough people in different walks of life and different, you know, someone in a research lab or someone that's a bit more experienced in the industry. You kind of just learn as you go, and the opportunities will present. So keep your options open. Be curious, and and network with lots of people. And I think you'll you'll find great success.
Yeah. So yeah, I think we are about to wrap up. Last question. Is there anything else you want to add before we stop recording? I don't think so. I think we've covered a lot of ground in the last hour. Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you so much for speaking with us and for like, like you like you like held our hands to like you like clarified yourself. He like helped us clarify our questions. It was very helpful. And yeah, I just really like you know, talking about slightly more risque topics too. And just, yeah, taking that on. So thank you very much. So we wanted to take this moment to tell you about our Patreon. We're raising funds in order to help pay for a podcast hosting service equipment upgrades and our own website. If you head over to patreon.com slash so you got a life side degree, you can view our three membership levels and the cool perks that come with them. For $1 a month, you can access bonus mini casts, which are five to 10 minute episodes where we talk about the interesting shenanigans in our lives, including weird animal discoveries, like the truth behind blobfish. To check out this and our other perks, click on over to patreon.com slash so you gotta live side agree. I was like so like, what you might call it caught up with like making notes on what you like small notes on what she was saying. And like questions, I wanted to ask that I didn't make any notes for like this discussion. Oh, that's why then you're just gonna hear a lot of Oh, okay. You want to start? instantly put on the spot?
No, that's okay. So one of the people that who we have on our like interviewing list for like potential guests later, is that Prophet I really like Gary Broussard. And so he basically has this, like, halfway through the class, he talks about this, like, essentially a cure for a certain type of cancer that, like, came out of his research, basically, you know, he was kind of like, Yeah, I was able a whole lot of lives. But like right now, you know, he can't get enough people to kind of fund it to get it into clinical trials and stuff like that. So that's how I started my dad who by the way, like, does, he worked as like a costing person more on the accounting side of like a pharma company for a long time?
He's your dad not done?
Yeah, honestly. Yeah. So yeah, I was talking about this. And he's like, yeah, like, it's so he's kind of emphasising the point of like, yeah, it's not really about the drug. Like, there's so many steps on which I can go wrong, like, you know, delivering and like manufacturing. And like, even just like, if they have the right containers to like, be able to transport the drug, like to not ruin it and stuff like that, like, I don't know, it's just like, yeah, yeah, related to that discussion of like, there's so many things that can go wrong. Like, yeah,
like, okay, it's, like, so hard not to get into the vaccine talk, but just a little talk. Like that lecture that I listened to one of the things that the professor mentioned, she was like, it, like the the container impacts, like, so the vaccine can, like stick to the container, right? So they have to, like consider that too, because that affects the dosage. Like, you know, there's like a bunch of stuff in vaccines, but like, they don't want like the actual, you know, like viral particle or like protein to like, stick to the sides. So there's like other chemicals that they add so that those chemicals will stick to the sides. And then I was like, you're like, Oh my god, you think about that?
Yeah, sure. Yeah. So yeah, I want to go into market access. Okay, so like, through a weird coincidence, I got recommended to look into this biotech programme recently, like literally yesterday, so I was talking to someone, and he was like, yeah, you should like really look into this programme. And so he was like, Oh, yeah,
we do that actually kind of makes sense for you because like science and biz, like cuz like, isn't econ kind of business?
Not like the thing is that like, the econ I'm interested in is not business at all, like for the public sector, or like university research. Like it's more the theoretical stuff, but or it's like dealing with like public policy and stuff, but I don't know, like talking to Kara it definitely did convince me to like, take another look at it. That's Wow.
Cuz I was gonna make a joke about how we should just like keep doing episodes of this podcast until one of us goes, like, That's the one. But I was like, okay, no, we're
done. Like, if that's what we do. That's it products over? Yeah. Well. So yeah, it's making me like, think about a little more especially after care is like, because I've always kind of assumed that if I go into like, the business side of things, I'm just gonna be like, kind of sad and doing it for the money. I picked up that assumption, but that's you're gonna be kind of sad.
You know,
but listening to her talk about it, like so excited and like interested in her work like that actually is making like, maybe I should consider it again. Yeah, speaking of a programme, though, I think we should do some information about that programme.
So the programme that Cara was talking about, it's officially called the master of biotechnology or M biotech for short programme. And according to the website on the university, and according to the University of Toronto's website, it is an interdisciplinary and course based professional degree programme offered through the Institute for management and innovation at the University of Toronto Mississauga. It says that you need a bachelor's degree in any area of like biochem. And basically just like any kind of like, you know, when people generally think sciences, you need a minimum of a mid beam. Okay, yeah, maybe that's not that's not bad. It's like, that's like research grad school, right? And the final two years of study, and if you are doing your studies outside of Canada, you have to submit your gr E. And yeah, just like the usual stuff and Letter of Intent CV.
Yeah, it's it's six semesters, and you get eight to 12 months of paid work experience, which I think Kara was talking about a little bit. That's really interesting. Oh, wow. They even have like all the courses listed here. By the way, you're welcome. UTM for the free advertisement. Yeah. Okay. So she mentioned this, like, very just like for like one second, but I didn't realise Oh, like I just guess I didn't logically process that there's PhDs like employed at pharma companies. So I don't know. Of course, yeah. I just like, didn't process.
Yeah, I mean, like, definitely the people who like coordinate all the hard science research, they definitely have two
PhDs, we should talk to someone like that. Because like someone who like goes, you know, PhD is very much for like, academic like, work. So it's kind of interesting if you don't go into
Oh, I whoa, wait, no, my brain is breaking up. Bro. Oh, my God, I never thought of it that way. So PhDs are for like the academic tract. Yeah. Huh. Like traditionally,
not even like, like, I think in recent years, there's been a lot of emphasis on like transferable skills on like, what you can do with a PhD and other places, mostly because there's not enough academic jobs anywhere. Like, most in most fields are just like, really, really hard to get like a possession. And now. Yeah, in the States, it's all worse because of like, all the adjunct thing and stuff like that. Anyway, that's a discussion for another day. We kind of talked about this a bit already. But just like hearing, kind of the impact that Kara feels like she's having in her role and things like that. I feel like that affects me a lot. Like I have a hard time working in roles where I don't think that I'm making a very positive contribution or, you know, making a difference somewhere. So yeah, I think that's, like, really interesting to hear her. Say that, and truly,
I think I like go back and forth, back and forth on that. Like, I think when I was in middle school, I was like, you know, like, there is no God. I was not made for any purpose. This universe did not need my existence. Yeah, like when I was in middle school, I thought that I didn't need to derive meaning from my work because I think I believed I mean, like, this is what I was 12 but I just like believe that. Yeah, that like they're like basically like, you don't need to like like the question like What is the meaning of life? Like I just answered that with like, well, it's like whatever meaning you want to, like, give it obviously. Yeah. But yeah, like, I think I go back and forth because sometimes I'm like, Yeah, like, I want to do something where I feel like it's not like at the very least not like a negative contribution, like, you know, working out like an oil place.
Yeah, yeah. I think like, Okay, I have a few things to say about that. One is that like, you know, the, your casual remark that like, you know, the meaning of life is whatever you want it to be. That is not actually an obvious thing. That's like,
like listening, that's the only thing that I like, Kate, let that's like, the only mind blowing moment I had in middle school that like, I kept.
Yeah, it is.
It's like, so natural to me now.
Yeah, if you lose, I can eat nature nap. But, um, so yeah, what I'm saying that it's not obvious. But it's obvious to us now. Because we have very similar, you know, belief systems. So yeah, the thing I was gonna say is that I think like with any role there, within a certain range, you can kind of see it in, like, different light. So, like, with any job, so I'll give you like, kind of four examples. One is like with my, well, one is related. So the original time that I thought about this was in some TED talk or something like that. I think it was Adam Grant, who was talking about this, was talking about, like, How are you so prepared to talk about the brain? Yeah, so he's basically saying how he, he was talking to these like, call centre, people in university. So basically, their job is like, it's like, you just get trained on the job. And it's like, students just do this for like, a quick buck or whatever. And then we're gonna call centres basically calling alumni and asking for donations for the university and stuff like that. Oh, yeah, you told me about this. So basically, kind of put us on like, like, he was trying to figure out how to motivate them. And then one, so he did a study where like, half of them basically were told, like they meet with a scholarship recipient because all this like donation goes to the the, to fund scholarships for students. And so they met like this recipient and kind of talk to them and like heard about, like, the impact that had on their lives and stuff like that. And then the control like didn't really do anything. And then yeah, apparently, this was like this huge, like, change and how many calls are made and how effective the people who talk to the scholarship recipient were because of like, the narrative that they kind of had behind their story their work now which it wasn't like, I'm just trying to get money or I'm trying to like scam someone out of money. It's more of like, yeah, I'm trying to help like students who are in need any that scholarship money. Like you're saying that like the caller's made more calls when Yeah, more calls brought in way, way, way more money. Like from the alumni.
Yeah. The call wait the call centre people perform better or the alumni gave more money,
like the call centre, people perform better, and therefore there was more money. Okay, okay. Yeah. And so I think like it, it kind of emphasises the point of like, the narrative that you have about your work. So the same thing with like, Kara, like, we kind of talked briefly about how, like, the pharma industry is, like, kind of shady. In the States, especially in some, in some ways, not like, you know, not that much here. But, um, yeah, so it's like, also that narrative, right? Well, you were curious, you said, I was very much like, you know, helping people's lives, like drugs that people could not afford, otherwise, like, are very accessible now. And that's like, that is like a big driver of why she does the work, it seems like, whereas someone else might have like, this completely different narrative of like, you know, I'm just working to pay my bills, but this like, industry is terrible. Whoa, like, all this stuff, right? Then this is like, Okay, this is a vague, I brought this up with you multiple times, because I was so keen that you make this argument, but your thoughts about tutoring, you're like, Oh, I'm just continuing to grade inflation. And like, this feeds me a lot, because I feel like, first of all, not true recently, definition of great inflation, but also like, you know, in my family, it's always like, it's like, like, my grandma, my grandpa and also like, a bunch of generations before that. Were teachers. So it take a lot of pride in teaching. So my grandpa's always like, Oh, yeah, if you're doing like, it's like, the highest job or whatever. Like, it's the most like, it's so it's very interesting. There's like, completely different narratives about that.
Oh, yeah. I don't know. Like, like, what the tutoring stuff. It's like, okay, because, like, I think the reason that I am so like, I do feel a bit like, scummy about it. Is that, like, I feel like some of the kids I have tutored, like they don't really need tutoring, right. It's just like, the parents, they want their kids. They'll be like, doing something in the summer, you know, and like, especially like a lot of like, immigrant parents. They're like, you know, like, really like on top of the academics. Yeah. Yeah. And then like, like, because I think about like in China, how it is like a lot of the kids do like private tutoring. And it's almost like if you don't do it, then you lose out. Yeah. And I think like that's happening, like, especially in high school, like, I think like my sister like, has like I ever had a tutor when I was in high school, but my sister like this today, she's like, oh, like everyone in AP does tutoring. And I think it's like, the reason I feel bad about it is because I feel like it like increases the barrier to like education. Because now like you have to pay like, you know,
yeah, like, it becomes necessary.
Yeah, it's like, if you don't do it, then you're like, what it like tragedy of the commons kind of thing. So yeah. So yeah, but then on the other hand, like, I do feel like I actually, like with some people, I actually help improve their, like, understanding and I feel like I'm good at explaining things. So yeah, yeah. Mostly feel bad sometimes feel good.
Yeah, I think that's more like case by case like the specifics of the tutoring job that you have.
Yeah, yeah. So wait. So your point is,
the point was that it is really like, basically, you're saying, like, we Okay, before this to backtrack, we were talking about how, you know, enjoying your job and like, whether you need to have meeting and like, have feel like you're doing good work to like, I was saying that, that's really interesting that, you know, she has that because that's something I like, feel like, I need a lot in my, in any job that I work in. And so yeah, I was gonna say that, like, a, like, there's kind of a range of like, interpretations that you can have about any job. So I see, I see. Yeah. So part of it is not just like the job, but also your like, you know, charitable feelings towards a job.
Yeah, your, your attitude towards it, right. And like, kind of on a similar level, like, I was also thinking, maybe like, maybe like the story that we're told that you need to like, love your job, and you need to, like, follow your passion. And like all those things. Like, that doesn't need to be the case. Like, you could have a job you work for, like 35 hours a week, and you just like, slightly enjoy, you don't like love it, but you don't like mind. And it's like, kind of nice, and you're good at it. And like you can have other things you get fulfilment from like, maybe have like cool hobbies, or like, you get a travel because you have like stable income. So, you know, so it doesn't you don't your job doesn't have to be like, I don't know, please, I have so much to say about this topic, but I'm just gonna die. How can you do that? And like, I feel like you're like pulling like a lump of words from your mouth, and then just throwing it behind you.
But I think it's interesting that she talked about the people that she worked with being like, a huge factor in like how much she enjoys her job and things like that. And I think like that is something that like is kind of under considered like that can really make or break your enjoyment in a job. And yeah, I think it's just like not talked about, really considered that much. Yeah, yeah. I've seen some like grad school advice, where it's like, yeah, like, you should kind of talk to the grad students in your in the lab you're considering and
I've heard that so many times. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. for grad school. Like even for thesis I've gotten that.
Yeah. Last points like this trivial, like, half just talking about, like, you can come into kind of a lot of the work they do in the company from either like a science or business kind of part. Background in a lot of areas like marketing, stuff like that. Yeah, it was just kind of, like, I talked to that person who has like a, like that econ Person A while ago, family friend. And she's kind of saying like, yeah, it's the kind of thing that e commerce like more of a world of like a set of tools where like, you can apply it to vastly different industries, like some of the people who she worked, like she knows, like, she has a colleague like she worked in one field for so long. And then suddenly, she was like, Oh, yeah, health economics is really cool. So then, like after 10 years, it's just like, Okay, I'm gonna work in health economics now. But it's like really easy to do because it's more like about the tools than it is necessarily within the industry knowledge. That doesn't apply strictly here. I feel like but it's still kind of interesting.
This has been Episode One of so you got a lifetime degree with Cara about market access in the pharmaceutical industry. If you would like to support this podcast, you can visit our patreon@patreon.com slash so you got a lifestyle degree, or leave us a review on iTunes using the link in the show notes. Music you're listening to is no regrets from audio help.com Thanks for listening and see you next time.