Relational Cultural Theory: Moving Toward Connection

1:40PM Jun 14, 2024

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Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.

Hello, everybody from the thoughtful counselor, my name is Dr. Stacy speedlane Gonzales, I'm really excited to have a very special guest with us today talking about relational cultural theory. It is my honor and privilege to have Dr. Shonda McGriff here with me. Shonda, thank you so much for being on this podcast and for talking with us about a topic that's very special to me relational cultural theory, and I look forward to just delving in, if you don't mind.

Sure. That's great. And thank you for the invitation. So Dr. McGriff,

can you tell us a little bit about yourself? What led you to becoming a counselor educator is that how you identify,

you know, I'm a counselor, I don't know that I identify as a counselor educator, I do have my doctorate in counseling and supervision. But I have worked at a community college for the past 20 years. And I've worked in the counseling department. And so I have done some counselor education work as an adjunct professor. But because that has kind of been supplemental, my primary job has been working at a community college. So I would say, I don't know that I really identify as a counselor educator, although that is a part of who I am. It's not my full identity, I probably more embrace the idea of being a counselor, the counselor, educator. However, when I am teaching adjunct, I definitely connect with being a counselor educator to some degree, but I wouldn't say it's my primary identity.

I love the intersectionality. And how you've described yourself, it sounds like you come from different perspectives, but offer so much to the counseling profession itself. What led you to becoming a counselor? Well, that's

funny. It's, it's, wow, I've been a counselor for so long. And that I'm trying to remember the process. I recall, graduating undergrad and not knowing what to do. And I recall being discouraged from going into something like psychology. So I took a break from undergrad to grad and I kind of just kicked rocks trying to figure out what to do. And my heart kept leading me back to counseling. And there were many people who tried to discourage me, you know, you're not going to make make enough money. Women are always drawn to these helping fields do something that's not so traditional for a woman. I remember African Americans are drawn to these fields. So you know, people were pulling parts of my identity. And telling me why I shouldn't go into counseling. They were telling me why it wouldn't be a good field for someone like me to go into and they were encouraging business and other things that I had no interest in. And so after about three years of just not being able to find who, who I was career wise, I went to counseling. And I'll be honest, a lot of people don't know what counseling is they they mix it up between social work psychology and counseling, right. So when I found my counseling program, I don't know that I had a counselor identity. I don't know that I knew what it meant. When I really understood what a counselor versus a social worker versus a psychologist was, that probably happened? Well into my career. Like I knew I wasn't a psychologist. I knew I wasn't a social worker. But if someone were to say, what are the major differences between the three, I don't know that I could have given them that. So I think it was my doctorate program where it really came into who I was. Wow. And

so tell me a little bit about some of your contributions to the field scholarly and your areas of interest.

So my areas of interest I have primarily been around single African American women, I think that a lot of people in the field tend to look at themselves. And they tend to research themselves, right? The personal is is kind of becomes the research object, if you will. And so I noticed that I was single, my peers were single, and a lot of us were not married. I actually started looking at this in my master's program, as well. And so what I've kind of focused on is just kind of looking at single African American women looking at creating a life cycle model around the stages of a African American woman who's single, and who does not go the traditional route of getting married having children. So what does that look like? So I've been exploring that. I've been looking at books at one point, Steve Harvey, and there were a lot of books that were targeting single African American women and providing dating advice. So you probably remember Think Like a Man act like a woman. That book. There were some other folks who kind of did what he was doing. One was Reverend Ron, and I think it was Tyrese Gibson. In fact, I know it was Tyrese Gibson, and they wrote a book called Man ology. So Steve Harvey wrote to his, his second one was straight talk, no chaser. And they were all about directives on what women could do, to be appropriate to get men to marry them. And they were all opinionated. Now, I realize that today's version has been these YouTube guys, right. And so they're doing the same thing. In fact, one person, and I don't, I don't know that I remember his name. But he was all about this high value, man. And that was his construct. So it's basically went from books, to now YouTube videos, and they're all men, who most of them do not have a background, and in relationships, or counseling or anything like that. They are opinionated people who might be comedians, actors, or rappers, and they are giving folks opinions about this is what men want. And so they have these huge following of women who are taking their advice and gobbling it up. So I have looked at at these themes, what are men saying? Excuse me, what are women saying? And so I actually did my dissertation on looking at the themes. And at least the Steve Harvey books, did not have not looked at the research with the more current high value folks who are on YouTube, but those are some of the things I've researched. I'd also say more recently, I had I suffered some bullying at work and it turned into mobbing. And so more recently, I've kind of been looking at bullying, workplace bullying, what that looks like, I'm a counselor. So the bullying happened in a counseling environment. And so you know, is this is this common amongst folks who are counselors are in the field of helping others. So those are kind of the two topics that I have been exploring in the field of

counseling. Wow, you bring such rich experience and just a wonderful wealth of knowledge. And given your background and your education. I'm really excited about this. And hopefully we can delve into those topics in a later podcast because I suspect the audience might be very interested in hearing a little bit more about those. Since we are talking about RCT today, maybe there can be some confusion into these topics because I feel like there's some relevance and intersectionality between your expertise and the things that you've researched, as well as this concept of the theoretical framework known as relational cultural theory. Can you begin by telling our audience about RCT what is it?

Yeah, so RCT, I'll be honest, I fell in love with RCT I. When I got into my doctoral program, I took a theories course. And we were told that we had to select a theory and many of you know, baby counselors go into programs that don't make you selected theory and I went through one. And so I didn't have a theory that I used. And from my doctoral program, I had to have a theoretical orientation. So we had read lots of books, and nothing resonated with me. And I remember having the Judith Jordan, relational cultural theory book, and I said, maybe I'll find a connection or maybe I'll resonate with If that theory, whatever it is, but I love the title, relational cultural, I was like, I was in love with the title. So I, I remember reading the book, and I was reading it one weekend, and I remember running around the house saying, oh my god, this is it. And I was talking literally, to the book. And so relational cultural theory is all about relationships. Right? That's, that's what the, the title is, the first word in the title is relational. And so it's it's the belief that humans are hardwired to be in relationship to be connected to someone that this is something that we always want to be in relationship with someone, and we get into relationships and they can be healthy, or they can be unhealthy. And so you'll hear RCT folks use the term in connection or someone's disconnected disconnections can happen interpersonally one on one with someone, they can happen with groups, and they can happen socio politically. So think of marginalized groups who don't feel connected to their government, right? who feel that there are things that are being done to obstruct their ability to maybe vote, or to obstruct their ability to live, how they want to live. I kind of think of the culture we're in right now, where a lot of folks are feeling very disconnected from their government, or feeling disconnected from maybe the supreme court because of some of the new rulings. So this is what RCT is, it's not just interpersonal, it's not just, Hey, you're having problems with with your best friend or your mom and your family extends and to the broader culture, or the broader context of of our social political lives.

So it has a very three dimensional perspective on how people experience life and what this looks like and how people negotiate relationships, not just with interpersonal relationships, like you said, also relationships with larger entities and institutions.

Absolutely. And so it has like some core concepts, and I don't know how deep in the weeds you want me to go? So I'll let you kind of direct me on that. Would you like to know about the core concepts? Please? Okay. So the the core concepts of the RCT theory is that and I've kind of already talked about that is that people grow to in toward relationships, and this is for toward a lifetime. And so usually, when someone says, Oh, I'm a loner, I don't like to be in connection with folks, I just like to be my, my little loans himself. Usually, if you delve a little deeper, that might be a protective measure, they really are more interested in being connected with someone, there might be some hurt there. And I'm not talking about an introvert versus an extrovert. I mean, the folks who kind of avoid and stay hidden away from folks, most people want to be in a relationship, maybe you don't have 1000 friends, but you want to have a relationship with with one person or a couple of folks who you can connect with and be close with. There's a concept of mutuality versus separation. So mutuality, is kind of this concept of I'm trying to connect and make you better and you do the same, like we are both in this relationship in which we want to mutually promote or help the other. And what's unique about that is even from a clinical perspective, the the RCT therapist recognizes that they're getting something out of that relationship with the client, even though they are the person who is the counselor. And it's not sometimes people confuse that with thinking that the counselor is getting like therapy. It's not used in that context. But it's more of a context of you bring something to me, I'm getting something from you just to be in this relationship with you. So it's not done in a way that is is harmful, right? I'm not using utilizing you for therapy. The therapist is not doing that it's seeing the person as I'm not treating you, but I'm in this relationship with you and my relationship brings me something, it might be joy because you have a beautiful smile. It might be just the relationship of what you bring in. You've taught me something new. So I want to kind of clarify that the mutuality concept is not like oh, I'm growing. I'm healing from this relationship as well. That is not happening. The relationship is differentiated. ation and elaboration that characterizes growth. There's mutual empathy. There's mutual empowerment. So that can look like in. We know our clients sometimes say things to promote us to make us feel good. So that's that mutual empathy and mutual growth. Growth. fostering relationships is a common term. It's a common theme used in RCT. So growth fostering relationship means that I'm always wanting you to grow, I'm trying to build you, I'm trying to deepen this relationship. I sometimes use this metaphor with Counselor Educators, like when I'm training them, it's like you're in a relationship, and you want it to be a healthy relationship. So one of the one of the things I'm teaching a client is I'm teaching them how to have a healthy relationship with me. And then that relationship can extend to their family or the broader society. If you can learn to have a healthy relationship with me, you can then take those tools and externalize it.

Yeah, since he is

a huge part of being been in connection with someone or in therapy, and one of the goals is the development of relational competence. Right? And that's what I just described. So the relational competence of you are having a very healthy relationship with me now you can apply that elsewhere.

Wow, based on your experience, working with clients using RCT, what are some of the reasons that people start to develop disconnections in relationships? What do you notice? Or maybe common examples of why people would say I prefer to be alone, or I just don't feel safe connecting to other people? Or, you know, fill in the blank. What are some of the things that you've noticed cause these disconnections?

Right, they can be sometimes like little minor, slight, minor injuries, but maybe they're happening all the time. So one of the things we think about is, let's say someone says something rude to you, and they say it once. And you're like, Okay, maybe maybe they were just kind of having a maybe they're just being snarky on that day. But it happens over and over and over, think of like a microaggression, right? Where you're like, this intentional how much of this as someone continues to do something like that, it begins to hurt and it begins to get deeper and deeper and deeper. I can think of, I can think of occasions just, you know, personally, where someone's micro aggressed me enough to where I just kind of start moving back like, oh, when this person comes by, am I gonna have a five minute conversation, I'm have a one minute conversation, I'm gonna have a two minute you start to find yourself disconnecting little by little by little, and then you're like, I kind of stopped talking to that person. So that might be kind of like one of those smaller ones where it's not a really big aggression to make someone disconnect, but it does happen over time. Another one can be, you know, you can think of someone like actually harming you, right? Maybe they have physically or emotionally abused you that that's going to be an obvious disconnection, right? You don't want to be typically around someone who is harming you physically, emotionally. I am probably missing some obvious ones in the moment. But when we think of like, you can probably do it yourself. If you think about when you stop talking to people, because most people do it. Something has happened, there's been some sort of an injury. And what that injury is, is is independent, some people have really long leashes and you'll say, wow, it took a long time for that person to disconnect from the other person and some people do it much, much quicker. So those are those are kind of like a broad description of what a disconnection is, and why people may feel harmed. They felt not heard.

What about for individuals who grew up in childhood, for example, who experienced disconnection from caregivers, or slights or harms in some kind of way from a person who is supposed to take care of you and love you and make you feel safe and nurtured what is RCTs stands for theory about, you know, childhood disconnections and how that affects growth and development across lifespan.

So, they call that like, like a chronic disconnection and a controlling image and a controlling image typically occurs when someone You know, and has harmed you so much that when you see that person or people like that person, you get an image of that person being harmful. So let's say you had a father who was very angry and aggressive in the household, you might develop a controlling image around men, and men who look like my father or men who say things like my father. And so you carry this throughout your lifespan, right? Like, oh, you use this phrase, my father used this phrase, that's a controlling image. And so that does happen and in the household, and then we carry these behaviors. So what are si t says is how can I change that narrative? And again, it's very relational, right? And so the relationship is at the center. And so how do I get people to rework or relearn some of the things they learned in high school? I'm sorry, and their family. So with me, they're in a safe relationship. So how do they unlearn that controlling image? How do I teach them some some techniques or relational approaches so that they are not carrying that out in the future? And so that that might be one example of but it does affect the lifespan right it of course, it would affect the lifespan of you've been taught that up, I get nervous around this type of person. So it's a lot of unpacking and unlearning beauty Jordan would say it is not technique base. It's very relational based. It's all about learning how to be in a relationship, it's relationship centered.

So in other words, it's not about prescribed interventions. If they say this, you say this, it's about maybe having more of a relational intuition as the counselor that helps the person grow and feel safer in the relationship. Is that what I'm hearing? That's

absolutely what you're hearing that such a good way of describing it the relational intuition, because that is what that's that's a term actually that Dr. Jordan would use. And she's one of the one of the founders of RCT.

Wow, you seem very passionate about RCT? Can you tell me how it speaks to you personally?

Well, like I said, I think when I was reading the book, I was really connecting, I was connecting with disconnection and connection, I was connecting with relationships, and very relational by nature. It's funny. Some people believe that theories come to you like they're called to you. Like you don't go out hunting for a theory, a theory finds you. And so RTT resonates with me, and how I live my life. So it doesn't only resonate with me, as a counselor, it resonates with me, as a teacher, it resonates with me, as a supervisor, it resonates with me in all aspects of my life is wanting to have healthy relationships with other folks. And making sure that folks feel safe with me or my students feel safe with me. I'm also one thing we haven't talked about is culture is the second word in relational cultural theory, right? And so culture seen people from their cultural backgrounds, seeing people from just how they grew up, so how I connect and engage with the world is a part of my culture, right. And so that's a big part of seeing people not treating people from a singular lens of, well, everybody felt no, you have your own unique culture. And it may be a culture that you were born with, it might be an ethnicity, or it might be the cultural context within your home, seeing people from that perspective, and that being the lens through which how you kind of navigate and work alongside them. And so that's a big part, I think, as a person who's hasn't to intersectional identities. I'm African American, I'm a woman. I see the world through that lens. And so here was a theory that was saying, Hey, it's okay to see the world through that, that that lens. I think traditional theories do a lot of ignoring of Sometimes people's context or some people, sometimes people's cultures, or their gender, and this was one that did not and so I think that also resonated with me I was enthusiastic that they were inclusive of identities that were not necessarily male or not necessarily white.

Mm hmm. Thank you so much for bringing that up that really rich, contextual information about how RCT really honored Is the person's intersectional identities rather than ignores them or attempts to present values and a set of morally rights and wrongs that may not resonate for an individual based on background or personal implication. So I really thank you for that that's just such a beautiful, just rich contextual framework that I feel may resonate really well with our audience, just as something to consider in terms of theory, or how we critically think about theories and about our clients and our clients experiences, and what is our role in our positionality as a counselor, and how do we, you know, allow people to grow in their own understanding and effectiveness with what they feel resonates with them, rather than us coming from this perspective as Knowers, you know, or experts in life or in journey. So that was just very, just very delicious. And I thank you for that. Question for you. Is there any challenges or populations that you have found or believes that RCT doesn't work well with?

So I don't you know, that I believe it doesn't work. Well. But you know, RCT wasn't originally a feminist model. Most people when they think of RCT, they're like, oh, yeah, that feminist model, and RCT is now beginning to embrace more of its multicultural social justice advocacy groups. You rarely, I mean, you might read it still. But even the current leaders in the relational cultural theory world are describing it more as a social justice multicultural theory. And you're you're not hearing it be identified as a, as a feminist theory as much anymore. And so I think in the beginning, that to some degree was maybe limiting to RCT. And so it because it was so embraced by by feminist scholars, maybe people did not think it applied to men. And it's a different approach to men, I would say, the foundation of it was very feminist, I think Jean Baker Miller, who was the creator of it wasn't called RCT, in the beginning, it had a different name, it's had like three iterations. But in the beginning, it was called self in relation. And she was noticing that women were often just kind of grouped as as having a mental, they were being grouped as having more of a, I'm sorry, I'm my, my train of thought is moving too quickly. And so I'm not able to articulate this as fluently as I'd prefer. But they were being kind of prescribed as having like these illnesses. And she was noticing that it was only happening to women. And so she was, she began to see that we can't approach women in a way in which we're treating them like men, like we're kind of diagnosing them as they're being something wrong with them, but they're more relational. And so that's kind of how this became more of a feminist kind of route. But then the culture became integrated in it. And so that's why I'm saying I think in the beginning, it may not have been used a lot with men, but men need to know how to be effective, and how to have relationships in which they are not always repeating what they learned. So I think it applies to men as well. But we know more women are in therapy than men. And so this is often applied to women more than it is with men, to be honest. So I think we have to be a little more intentional with males when working with this theory, but I wouldn't say that it does not apply to men. Okay.

What sort of resources can you offer to the audience who might want to learn more about RCT, maybe some resources or good training sites or tools that you find to be helpful?

So one of the first things that I found when I discovered RCT was the book relational cultural therapy. And it's Judy Jordan. She is author of that book. They are they are TTS but has lots of papers. They call them like working works in progress. And that's another thing I like about RCT is it evolved. It's not a set theory. It has evolved. You heard me describe how it was more feminist in the beginning and now it's more social justice and multi Cultural and relational in nature. So it's always evolving. So there are lots of resources. If you type in RCT, there are groups there RCT groups that folks can get involved with. And I will have to give that to you. Maybe you can post what some of these groups are called, and how folks can get involved with the group. So I can share that with you later. But yeah, it's it's, as you said, there's lots of books out there's lots of works in progress on people who've done research in the field. And if you just type relational cultural theory, you are going to find lots and lots of stuff. But again, my favorite was the little succinct book that kind of describes RCT in less than 150 pages. And that is a theories or cycle therapy series by John Carlson and Matt Engler, Carlson. And then Judy Jordan was the author, and it's just simply called relational cultural theory. Wonderful.

Wonderful. Well, this concludes our podcast for today. And I want to thank you so much, Dr. McGriff for being with us and for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. And I look forward to a future podcast with you where we can talk more about your expertise with respect to single women, single black women and what those what your research has has presented and what it has revealed to you. I really look forward to that future interaction downstairs. Thank you.

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