Hello, inclusiveness. It's Tim. This is thinking inclusive. If you're new to the podcast, you may be wondering about that word inclusiveness. What does it mean anyways? Well, to us being an inclusiveness means that you're committed to transforming schools from places where children with disabilities are sent to disability specific programs like for students on the autism spectrum, or children with intellectual disabilities, or students with learning differences are pulled out into resource or a special education classrooms, to schools that include each and every learner, and gives them the support that they need to learn, thrive and feel a sense of belonging in general education classrooms with same age peers, and with the same curriculum as everyone else, even if they need adaptations. Not sure how you feel about all that? Well, we're glad you're here, because I'm thinking cluesive We bring you conversations about inclusive education, and what inclusion looks like in the real world. And it's through conversations that I believe we learn, and we grow. Let's get started.
This week's guest is Beth Leipold. It's an inclusion and accessibility advocate who believes in creating a more accepting world for our children. As the hearing mother of a deaf child Beth is raising her son Cooper bilingually in both hearing and deaf cultures. She shares her parenting journey on Tik Tok, YouTube, Facebook and Instagram where she has built a community of more than 1.5 million people around disability inclusion. In this episode, our conversation navigates the intertwining paths of personal narrative maternal advocacy, and the pursuit of inclusive environments. Beth provides a window into her world as the mother of a deaf child equipped with cochlear implants, touching on the role of American Sign Language in their lives in the decisions that have shaped their journey. Before we get into today's interview, I want to tell you about Bookshare are your students reading below grade level? Do they struggle to read due to a learning difference like dyslexia, visual impairments or physical disabilities. Bookshare is a free ebook library that makes reading and learning easier designed for students with learning differences. Bookshare lets students read in ways that work for them with ebooks and easy to read formats. Students can access millions of titles including textbooks, educational materials, and popular titles like Harry Potter and Percy Jackson. Students read with free reading tools on the devices they have access to at school and home. They can listen to words read aloud, follow along with highlighted text, read in large font or Braille and customize their reading experience. Bookshare is 100% free for all us students with qualifying disabilities and schools through funding from the US Department of Education Office of Special Education Programs. Sign up today@bookshare.org That's bookshare.or After a short break my interview with Beth Lipe Holtz and for free time this week, a question for our long time listeners. Could that be you? Stick around. We'll be right back.
Beth les Paul's thank you for being on the thick inclusive podcast.
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to dive in a little bit.
So Beth, you have you have a number of things going on. You've got Instagram, you've got your book, you've got you know, website, you have all all these things. Let's start out with you know, what's the big message that you want to share about inclusion and accessibility?
Yeah, I think for me when we kind of, you know, we were sort of blindsided by my son's diagnosis. He's profoundly deaf. Has cochlear implants, we use sign language. And so it was just a big world of like the unknown. And I think that's kind of been my driving like motivation in sharing our story is just to kind of make you know, something that people don't know a lot about. more widely. No, not necessarily just to connect with other parents, but people who might encounter kids with implants or a deaf person. And so obviously, I can't tackle that from every single point that there is when it comes to disabilities and inclusion. But if I can at least make people think a little bit differently, that's kind of where I'm at with it.
So you said that he has implants. And I know that that can be a difficult decision for a family. Was that a difficult decision? Or was it you know, just, you know?
Yeah, it was something that was new to us. I at the time did not know about a lot of the controversy that can surround cochlear implants when it comes to the deaf community. And so that was something that was new to me to navigate. I think for us, because of where we live, we are in like rural Minnesota, we knew that a deaf school wasn't really an option. We knew that he would be raised in a hearing world, we're very ingrained in this community and didn't didn't see moving as an option. And so for us that it kind of was a no brainer, once we had asked the questions we needed to ask. But the decision to also incorporate ASL was a no brainer, because I didn't want to, you know, there's days Cooper doesn't want to wear his implants, we didn't know if he would take to them to begin with, and I didn't ever want to be cut off from communicating with my child. So I think both of those were an easy decision in a way.
Okay, yeah. So I am definitely not an expert or have any, like, any significant experience in you know, having a deaf member in my family, or even students when I was a special education teacher, you know, I usually supported, you know, learners who were on the autism spectrum, or who had an intellectual disability, or maybe had some behavior challenges. So, you know, what is it like, just supporting someone who is deaf? And then, you know, like, what you said about taking implants on and off? Like, that's like, what? Like, I didn't know you could do that.
Yeah, yeah. It's, I always say like, nobody teaches you how to parent in general. And nobody really, nobody teaches you how to parent, a deaf child who can literally just turn his hearing on and off. And when he's mad. There's a lot of unique situations that I like, just didn't anticipate as a parent. And I obviously can only speak to, you know, interacting with a deaf child to that extent. I know, I know, deaf adults, but not on the level of my child, obviously. And so yeah, it's something that is what his implants are on. When that magnet is connected to his head, he can hear sound, you can hear pretty much everything we hear. It might sound different to him, but it's all he knows. And so I mean, when I say everything he can pick up on like whispers, he sometimes hears things that I don't. And same with his verbal language, like he is amazing at speaking, he actually doesn't even qualify for speech and language delay, which when you think about the fact that he didn't hear for 10 months of his life is crazy. It's interesting. Yeah. And so yeah, there's, there's a lot of dynamics there that it's like, you know, if he's sick, and he doesn't necessarily want to wear them, if he's overstimulated, he'll take them off. If he's mad, he'll with moss, like, there's a lot there that nobody teaches you how to navigate. And so that's, that's been another place where it's really helpful to have sign language, obviously. Although, you know, when he's really mad, he can just go stand in the corner and not look at me either. So.
Right? So the idea though, with the with ASL and teaching, incorporating that into your daily life, and if you look at your Instagram, feed, and just Just overall, your approach, it's, you know, I use this kind of stuff all the time, and just embedded within my daily routine, is that right?
Yeah. And I would say, we've always been very much of the like, follow his lead, type, like, give him the option and let him make the decisions. And so I hate saying it, but like ASL isn't at the forefront as much as it was at one point, just because he simply doesn't prefer it to communicate. He'll use it when he needs to, or when he really wants to get a point across or with certain words, like whenever he says, Please, he'll sign it. But it's, it's not. And then he's, he's just constantly on the move to he's a very, like, high high energy child. So even as a parent, it's hard for me to incorporate it daily, still, because He's rarely ever looks at me. And so it's something that we obviously still have, and he knows a ton of if you understand the time he has that in his back pocket, but it's really hard to incorporate daily when he prefers to speak. Sure. Well, and
how old is he?
How before in September?
He's four. Well, yeah. So and that, you know, obviously could change right at some point, do it just, you know, but I like what you said about following his lead, you know, in really making it a choice, right. Yeah.
And I think that's why he has such a good relationship with his hearing devices because we never, you know, forced it on him and there's something that you'll hear in, in the world that we're in where it's like, eyes open ears on meaning, like, if they're awake, their hearing devices should be on. And I hated that. Like, I just never, I was like, I'm not gonna force this on my child when it's obviously upsetting him or he doesn't feel good. And so I think that's he's, he knows he has that autonomy, which is why he wears them the majority of the time because he likes them. But he also knows that he doesn't have to.
So why was it particularly important for you to share your story with the world? I mean, you know, putting yourself out there on social media, it can be it can be a tough thing. It's exciting, but it also can be rough.
Yeah, um, I did not walk into this eyes open to what was going to happen with our story. I'll just start by saying, I sort of back up a little bit. I've always been pretty active on social media. I've been alcohol free for 10 years now. And I started sharing that journey when it was kind of unfolding. And so I was kind of, you know, I had fixed it and to an extent when it came to like, unsolicited opinions and comments about my life, since so, obviously, it's different to when it's your your child, but when I started sharing our journey, I never expected it to really grow beyond like our inner circles. And I jumped on Tik Tok at the beginning of the pandemic, and started sharing there and I didn't know what I was doing. And it just kind of started growing and snowballing and other social media platforms followed suit. People People were just interested because it was different than they just they found it. So neat that he could just like turn the world off when he wants to. And honestly, that's something I envy still, today, I tend to get really overstimulated. He's often the cause of my overstimulation but it's, yeah, it's I never set out to become like, I hate the word. influencer. But you know, content creator, like it was never even on my radar. It just Yeah, people were interested in it kind of grew from there. And I still am very, very mindful of like, what I share and when because I never want it to be something that's forced or something that like, I don't enjoy anymore, because social media very much can take that out of you. But I think it also helps that I'm very, very confident in the decisions that we made for our family. I still get rude or mean comments once in a while, but not nearly as much as I did at the beginning. And for the most part, I just delete, block and move on. Because I know that we did the right thing for us. Right, right.
So coop is for my dog just jumped on the bed. So definitely, definitely going to hear his collar rattling. So coop is four, which means he's I don't know if he's in like preschool or in going to be going to a preschool program. But kindergarten is like right around the corner. Right? So have you thought about what school look like for coop? And you're like, how will your advocacy be different? If at all during the school years?
Yeah, so he's a September birthday. So he'll have a year of preschool starting this fall, and then another year, just because he's right on that line of being, you know, going early or not. And I actually am too, so my parents have waited for me and I, I like really enjoy being the oldest. So that's what we're gonna do. He'll have two full years preschool. We live in Minnesota, we are very, very lucky. Minnesota is one of the, to my knowledge, one of the only invest states that has a zero to three early intervention program through school districts versus like external services. So as soon as we got his diagnosis, they were in touch with us. Kind of saying, Here's your team. Here's your plan. We mapped it out from there, we had sessions with them, like we had so much packed into those first three years. And I've talked to other people who don't get any of that they don't get any services through a school districts until their child turns three, which is crazy to me. I mean, that's only the last 10 months like that he would have been getting those services. And so we're super lucky in that regard at all in Minnesota, and then our actual school district itself has been incredible. I was worried like I mentioned just being in a rural area and not knowing any other kids with implants. We actually have about four or five other kids in our district, which for a town of 15,000 is kind of amazing. So our school is very, very familiar with it, but they they've gone above and beyond is his deaf and hard of hearing teacher uses sign language, use spoken language, make sure he has access to an interpreter which he will hold time in the fall and I'm hoping that that kind of gets him a little more interested in ASL again. And then they've gone out of their way like equipment and technology wise there's something called a Roger mic that or an FM system is another really common term where the person wearing it their voice will go directly into implants or hearing aids via Bluetooth. And so they went out of their way to go purchase that for us and not only for school but like we Take it home, like it's, it's ours to use as we please. And that's when we started using that about a year ago is when his speech just took off. And I really credited for going directly into his implants like that. And so yeah, that's been amazing because those devices alone, or like, they can be $1,800. And it's like, not every family has access to that. And we're lucky enough that we would have on our own, but the fact that our school district just took it upon themselves and continues to do so is amazing. And I've, I'll add one more thing, and then I'll stop being so long winded.
It's a podcast. So I know, he'll
start actual preschool in the fall. And he'll be there three days a week in the mornings. But then he'll also have two days a week in a Foundation's for literacy class, which is literally a class just for deaf and hard of hearing kids put on by the school district. So there's, I think there's only gonna be a, you know, four or five kids, but they go out of their way to do that twice a week for an entire school year, to give those kids the extra that they need. And a lot of them come out, you know, either reading before kindergarten, I mean, which I, I see happening, Cooper knows all his letters, novellas letter sounds, he's always been very into that stuff. And I think that's partially because of ASL, just the visuals. So I'm really excited to see how that pans out.
Wow, fantastic. So just a little story about in the school district I was previously there, there's this. I don't know how to put this. So for particularly deaf and hard of hearing students, I feel like, as far as inclusion goes, the school districts cut like, they, they, for the most part, and especially, you know, my previous district, it was kind of baked in to what they already did. So like when you talked about interpreters, like I remember being at a school, and there being a number of interpreters that would kind of, you know, follow students from class to class. And it was just a normal thing. And it was not, it was not a big deal. Right. And, and so I'm, I'm wondering it. In my experience, like, for students with autism, or students with an intellectual disability, sometimes, the idea that a learner belongs in a general education class is a little, it's a little bit of a reach for some teachers. But I think it has to do with the amount of support that's, that's already baked into the school. So and I don't know, like, and again, I'm not an expert in this area at all. But it sounds like, at least in your school district, or as you are looking at the support that's going to be available for cube as as he goes to school. Those mindsets are already kind of baked in, right. So in and they're expecting him to, you know, be in regular classes. And, yeah, the support is going to be there. Right.
Yeah. And it's, it's interesting, too, we have, we have five elementary schools, I believe that feed into the middle and high school. And so they kind of have them segmented. So like certain. There's one elementary school that's specifically like they're deaf and hard of hearing kids. So like, even though we don't live in that zone, he'll go to that school. And then there's other ones where that are more like their behavioral or more their physical. So that that's interesting, too. I have not really heard of that, but it's more so. So the staff, you know, is where their specialization is and keeps them from having to kind of bounce around to have a microphone, sorry. They have more, you know, less less of that, like travel time more time to be like with the kids one on one when needed type of thing. But yes, he'll be mainstream, he'll be in a regular classroom. I know that's not the case for every single student in this district, just depending on the level of needs that they have. But I know that it's a goal of the district
What about barriers to inclusion, and I know that, you know, Cooper's in in like, you know, the K 12 space, but just what about you and your family? Like, what have you come up against?
I'm trying to honestly think of some because he's just so like, if you couldn't see the implants on his head, you wouldn't know he was deaf. He does such a good job compensating when you need to, I would say It COVID was hard because he does lip read. I mean, even though he's little he lip reads. And so masks and like facial expressions were obviously not at the forefront. So that was tough. Otherwise, I mean, we've had like, closed captions on our TV, basically, since he was born just because it's good for any children, and especially deaf and hard of hearing children. And so now, my, my husband and I are so used to that, like, it drives me crazy when we go to like a movie, and they're not on there. But I also know that like, they have those tools available. Like there's literally a silent movie theater that says, you know, asked for whatever, and I'm tempted, I'm tempted to do that, just to experience it, like next time we go. Because I think it's done through a pair of glasses versus like on screen, which is kind of cool. But we really haven't run into much because people have have been accommodating, I think sharing our story, you know, makes people close to us want to know some sign language, it makes them know that like Cooper likes to look at faces and make eye contact and use visual. And so I know that that's not going to be the case forever by any means. But we've been very lucky so far.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've also been tempted at the movie theater. It's really, you know, and, again, I don't we don't have anyone that's in our family that's deaf or hard of hearing. Although I think my wife would say that I am hard of hearing because of the the volume that I put up the TV. And we're very split in our family. So some people will just love closed captions, and some don't. So it's always a little bit of a like, having closed captions this time or not, you know, but typically, if I'm by myself, I usually have it on. The other thing that I've noticed. And I don't know if you have AMC theaters, but where you live, but the there are options where there's, if you can go to a movie with open captions. Have you seen that? No. Yeah. So like, you can purchase tickets to a to like a movie at a particular time. And they will have the captions on the screen. And I'm like, oh, man, that's really cool. That
is yeah, I'm guessing our theaters just too small to do that. But we do have AMC. So I'm curious, they probably do offer that in the bigger, more closer to the Twin Cities areas. Right.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. But that's good. You know, and, and I'm glad that sharing your story, especially with the people that are close to you, have really, you know, help them accommodate, you know, coop and your family. And, you know, I just hope that it continues into the school years.
One thing that's been interesting to kind of watch the progression of is captioning on social media. Because I remember even when I jumped on Tik Tok, and rails at the beginning, like it wasn't something that most people included, like myself included, because you had to really, you got to really like go out of your way to find an app that would do it, and most of them you had to pay for. And so it's been awesome to see not only the apps, including that and automating it, but people putting those captions on there, because they know that it makes it more accessible or that people I mean, me included, I would say 80% of the time that I'm scrolling like reels or tick tock I don't know my volume on just because I don't like being overstimulated, and I'd rather read. And so that's been really interesting to kind of watch over the last few
years. Yeah, same thing with like, all text. I feel like Twitter's done a really great job over the last probably couple of years. I don't exactly remember, but it was like, Oh, hey, and we can make all text like super easy. And like, Oh, this is wonderful, you know? So yeah, I really feel especially, you know, in the internet space, social media, things are getting more accessible and you feel more accepted. Like it's just, it's just a normal thing. Right? Yeah. Yeah. How about how you're explaining this disability to coupe? Is that something that's important to you?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've always talked to him about, you know, your death, and we're hearing and so that means that like, you can only hear with your cochlear implants. But mom and dad can always hear, you know, in those like younger kid terms right now, and he does have a grasp on it. It's, it's actually funny because like, he's going through a phase right now where like, he doesn't believe that I actually have a name. He thinks I'm just mom, which is, whatever. My, my husband, my husband gets to have a name, but I don't. And so I'll say no, my name is Beth. And for him that sounds very similar to death. Like he has a hard time distinguishing. And he'll be like, No, you're not deaf, you're hearing and he'll like, get really mad. So I've just given up on that. But he definitely understands And I don't know that he knows that it makes him different necessarily. He's just a very, very confident kid in general. Like, he just thinks he's pretty cool and rolls with that. And so I'm not really worried. I think I think he'll see a lot of my advocacy he already has. And I think that just kind of carries into his confidence. But we've we've always just stuck with being honest about it.
Right. Right. Yeah. So he knows, like you are, you know, posting things on social media and like, you know, he knows that there's this out,
yeah, I mean, as much as uh, as you can know, something that's hard to balance, too. I mean, it's something I think about as he gets older. I'd never forced him to, like, be in things or be in videos, it's just, it's hard to balance because a lot of it like I just share, because it makes me smile, and it makes other people smile. And, you know, it's, it's hard to know, this is like the first generation of kids that's growing up, like, social media famous, or whatever. And we do get recognized in public and have people you know, come up and talk to us. And it's something that I'm still learning how to navigate. Right, and I'll obviously continue talking to Cooper about as he gets older. But like I said, it's this is really the first generation of kids that it's the case with, and I've thought about, you know, is it is it fair to share his journey at this point. But it's also our story, and I think it's making the world a little bit more friendly, a little more accessible, a little bit easier for him down the line? Because it does start small, you know, if nobody shared and nobody talked about it, what would any of us have to relate to? Yeah,
yeah, I think it's a, it's a delicate balance, you know, even for even sharing, you know, your photos and videos, from a family who isn't experiencing, you know, that, like, the death experience, you know, it's just like, you know, I think about that, you know, sharing my kids, my kids are, you know, 17 now, sorry, shall we 17 next month? 1613. And 10. You know, and they're, you know, like, well, usually with my teenagers. It's just like, hey, this is what I'm sharing, you know, is that okay? And they're like, yes or no, you know, although my 10 year old is like, she just likes being on the socials. She doesn't have any, she doesn't have an account or anything, but she likes the she likes the feedback. So well, tell us about your book, or books. Is it just one? Is it one? Or is it multiple?
Technically multiple. So my first one I self published, and it's it's mostly geared towards parents of children with hearing loss or who are deaf, just kind of details navigating this journey. It's really covers the first year and that one's called Hello, Holland. It's kind of it's a nod to the poem. Welcome to Holland. Yeah, yeah. And so that one, it just kind of is my little book, the big one, the one that's, you know, been a really big project, the last year and a half, almost two years, is a children's book called The ABCs of inclusion. And the idea, you know, to write a kid's book was always kind of in my head, but I just, I didn't want to write one that was super specific to being deaf and hard of hearing. Because, yes, there's families that follow me that fall into that, but it's so specific. And I wanted to be able to kind of appeal to a bigger audience. And I had realized, you know, along the way that we've, you know, we've gained over a million followers across platforms type of thing. And I know that it's a lot of parents just have children with special needs, or varying needs in general. And so I got to thinking like, well, you know, what, like, what if we actually base the book off these kids. And so it's called the ABCs of inclusion, each letter of the alphabet is a child's name based on a real child. So that was important to me to put that kind of person first language versus like using using the diagnosis as the letter. So like, C is for Cooper, and then it talks about being deaf and having cochlear implants and it's all like in a very kid friendly way. And so, it every child has a different diagnosis. They're all based on real kids. So I mean, there's, you know, anxiety, OCD, cerebral palsy, diabetes, like it's a really wide array, and it just, it was it was hard because those some of them are just really complex topics and big words that you can't avoid. And so to bring it down to like, a short, sink kid level page was tough. But yeah, it's been a labor of love. So it came out in March. And yeah, it's currently sold out, which is mind blowing. So we're waiting, we're waiting on the next print run. And I hope it kind of keeps, keeps making it into the hands of people in schools and libraries. And is
this also self published? Or did you go through
independent publisher? So for for people who don't really know the publishing world, there's self publishing, independent publishing, and like traditional publishing. So independent publishing is where the author really like funds, the majority of it, but works with that publisher for those resources. And so they've been amazing. I worked with the Twin Cities publisher for that. Oh,
wonderful. And, and so how has the book been received? I understand it's sold out, but like, what kind of feedback are you getting from it?
Yeah, um, I mean, I'd be lying if I said it was all positive, because there's always going to be people who don't like the way something is worded or don't like that something was included in something wasn't. So I've gotten, you know, a handful of people who don't think I did it, right. Or did it for the wrong reasons, which, that's honestly been hard to, like, come to grips with, and read that kind of stuff. Because it's like, I know, I know, my heart, and I know where my heart was in writing it. So it's just hard to like, see that people can think that's not the case. Um, but yeah, overall, it's been, it's been really fun. I love seeing parents send me videos sometimes of like, you know, they'll have read the book, and then later, their kid is talking about something and like, relates it back. And that's what I love seeing like, that's exactly what I wanted to happen. I think a little bit of like, the negative feedback maybe came from. I'm always careful that I talk about this too. I know, for somebody, it was like, lack of diversity on the cover, like when it came to the kids, which that was something I really had to balance to was like, you know, I wanted a variety of diagnoses. But I also needed, you know, to make sure that I represented a variety of races, a variety of locations across the world, like, it was something that was really hard to put all those puzzle pieces together. And something that I worked hard on. So like that that type of feedback, too, is hard, because it was something that I had in mind. And then I know, we probably would touch on this regardless. But the the next version that's coming out has a few small tweaks that I would say the biggest one is probably just I changed a little bit of the language on the autism page. Because as I read it, I was just like, it just didn't feel as cohesive as some of the other pages, it didn't feel like it really covered the fact that autism can be so different for different people. And so I know there's a lot of back and forth in the autism community to over saying, like, somebody has autism versus is autistic. And so that's something where I think I'm not really gonna win, because it's, I mean, it's like saying, I'm an alcoholic, versus I'm a person with a substance use disorder, like, some people are just going to prefer one and some are going to prefer the other. And so that's the majority. Yeah, but otherwise, I've had amazing feedback. And that's really all I could have hoped for. I mean, it's sold out. So obviously, people are enjoying it.
Right, right, right. And beyond the book, what else do you have planned? Like? Are you gonna do more books? Are you just gonna keep? Like, what's the, like, do you have? Do you have a goal?
Hmm, I don't know, I just, I do a lot of a lot of things as we kind of touched on. And I feel like, they all kind of play into each other. So my full time job job is website design. I also own my own photography, business. So those two things are kind of always moving. That I have the book, obviously, I have like the social media, it's, it's been nice to just kind of be in this part of the publishing process where I feel like I can breathe. Like I didn't realize how insane it was for a couple of months leading up to the launch and everything. I would like to say, you know, that there's probably a second book, but I also think I just need a breather for a while.
Yeah, just live life, you know? Yeah, yeah.
And if I if I were to publish again, I would probably look for a traditional publisher solely for the financial reason. It's just, it's a lot of investment upfront. And the fact that this one's been so successful makes me confident that I could probably get into a traditional publishing house for a second one. And I just said, quite honestly, it's something I haven't had like the time or energy to really dive into yet. So yeah, we're just gonna ride this one out for a while and see what happens. Yeah,
So the, the book is called The ABCs of inclusion. I'm wondering like, What about like inclusion? What drew you to that particular word? You know, cuz there's like, you know, disability awareness. Right? How like, how is that different from what you're trying to
book? I think inclusion is I mean, something more widely accepted as a term as a whole. I mean, I don't know very many people who set out to say, like, I don't want to be inclusive, um, I've run into and this, again, is specific to the deaf community. There's people who there's people who say, Yes, being deaf is a disability, it makes things harder, it makes me need accommodations. There's other people who adamantly say it's not. And that's because there's a lot, you know, and this is me as a hearing individual with what I've learned, but there's a lot of pride in the deaf community and in being deaf and having American Sign Language, and they don't view it as a disability. And so that's that both that and special needs are terms that like, I've had to try and figure out where to use and what's appropriate. And so disability, I feel like just invites a lot more controversy to an extent, which is never really like, what I set out to engage and educate. Yes, but like, controversy for the sake of controversy now.
Yeah, I mean, you know, we all have a lot to learn, right. And, you know, something that I've learned it interacting and speaking with, and with, you know, disabled advocates is that disability isn't necessarily a bad word. Right? So it's like, I definitely empathize with your, when you put things out in the world, you know, there's some people who are not going to like it, you know, and not like how you say things. But I think that if we come at any situation with an open heart and mind, and, and a willingness to learn from other people, and from other perspectives, I think that's, that's the best we can do it. And then and then you know, do better, right? Like what you said, on Tiktok, when you were talking about the changes to the book, you know, it's okay to it's okay to make changes, it's okay to change your mind. When you when you know better you do better, right? And
they say, Yeah, you don't know what you don't know, to accent and it's like, yes, obviously, I researched everything in that book. But I'm not an expert. I'm 26 plus different diagnosis. Like, I can't say probably even most doctors are an expert on many things. And so that's something where it's like, you know, if people have feedback, and if they present it in like, a respectful way, I'm more than happy to engage and discuss. I just don't have any interest in engaging when it's approached very brashley.
Well, yeah, I think Yeah.
Which can be said for many things.
I mean, that's not that. Yeah, that's what anything really? Yeah, I've really changed my mind because someone has shamed me.
Yes, and I am very much a recovering people pleaser, like, you know, before, I would say, even a couple of years ago, like, I probably would have tried more than I try now to make everybody happy. And I think being in the position that I'm in now, that's just I know that it's not going to happen. Being a parent is honestly given me a lot more confidence and backbone, and ability to not only stand up for myself, but for my child. And so I think that that plays into it, too. I mean, like, like I said, I'm I'm confident in the decisions that we made, which in turn makes it easier to kind of navigate those situations online. Yeah.
We mostly have educators who listen to the podcast, we do have some families that have children with disabilities, and of course, some disabled advocates. Anything else you want to make sure that they take away from this conversation?
Hmm. I think like parent wise, people, people always are like, you know, you're so lucky to have the team that you have or the doctors that you have. We didn't have that exact team when we started, like, I had certain feelings and issues maybe and I changed things and And I think some parents are just like, you know, that this, this the team we were given. And I think they don't realize, you know, you can say I don't like this approach, you can look for other options. And yeah, maybe sometimes there aren't any. But a lot of times there also are. So that's what that's one of the biggest things. I mean, we, I credit the team around us for so much of not only my, my knowledge and my passion about this, but just Cooper's success too. And as far as educating, education wise, I mean, the fact that, again, our team has been so passionate. And so I know they have other students, but I feel like they are so invested in Cooper. And as a parent, that means the world you want to know that your kid is in good hands and is cared about as an individual, and get updates, you know, apart from like the ones that are set in stone. And so I think just going out of your way, with the tiniest things, like, some of his teachers will text me after school, like he's been in like early childhood, you know, this past year, and be like today, he took a deep breath and calm down and shared with his friend, and like, you know, just those moments are like that, a lot of times, they'll text me and say he wanted a hearing break. That's what we call it, he takes his ears off. So you know, we went up the hall, we walked around for 10 minutes. And it's like, just knowing those little things makes me feel so good about where he's at, especially as a working parent who's not involved in all of those little day to day things. So I think it's just, you know, not not under estimating the power of that kind of small check in.
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's really great advice. To, you know, if things aren't going the way that you want them to, you know, it's it's okay to say that and to look for solutions. And sometimes that is, you know, finding additional or alternative team members, right. And then the communication is so key between educators and family members. I think that sometimes that doesn't always happen. And, and we need to make sure that that happens more frequently. And it's emphasized right after this break and the mystery question.
Alright, so the mystery question. So I have a stack of of question cards that I got from pod decks. Okay. It's completely random. I'll pick a card, see the question, and then we'll both answer it. Does that sound fun? It could be on anything a control
freak? No, but yeah. But I'll do it. All
right. All right. It's good. It's good so far. So far, it hasn't been anything to, like, controversial. So. All right. Oh, okay. So what gives you butterflies in your stomach?
Good words, when people are good at writing and can can take experiences and make you feel like you've been in them and like, it hit you in the heart as much as it did them. And when it's so far removed, like maybe it's somebody across the world, I literally will get like physical goosebumps a lot of times when I read things, and I just love that feeling.
Oh, nice. Nice. Well, for Okay, so for me, um, I, I say that I'm afraid of heights. But it's more like a fear of falling. Does that make sense? And so, like, I remember, like, my son is 13. And like, we play, we play video games, and we play this game called Jedi fallen order. And so you just control a person and you're like, jumping around and stuff. And this is a video game. Okay. But like, jumping from like, like, one ledge to like something else. Yeah. Like, I feel it in my stomach. And like, there's no rational like, I completely safe everything is fine. But for some reason, that just gives me like it gives me so it's funny that you interpreted as like a positive thing and I interpreted it like a negative thing, which is fine, you know, because it you know, it's a it's a question, but I'm just a
deep feeler so there's plenty of negative things that also make my stomach Turn, but like, I also feel the good things deeply.
That's great. No, no, I and in the what you described, I think it's, it's like, I've definitely felt that it's like this deep connection with the world, you know, like, whether it's a movie or something you read or conversation and you're just like, that was beautiful, you know, I so I definitely want to acknowledge that night. And there's other
days like that, that was heavy or that was you know, and you kind of carried the weight of other people too. So it's, I always say it's like a double edged sword to be somebody who can like, feel that much. Because some days I'm just like, the world sucks, and everybody is not happy. And that makes me not happy. Right.
Right. It's it's a hard.
It's a hard thing. Yeah. All right. Well, thank
you. Thank you for that.
Thank you for that world sucks.
Thank you for engaging with me on the mystery question, Beth Leipold thank you so much for spending some time with us something conclusive. You appreciate it.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
That time means it's free time, if you've listened to this far into the episode. Thank you. It probably means one of two things. One, that you're a longtime listener, and perhaps you've listened to most of our episodes. So you are amazing. And we would not be where we are now, without you. Or maybe you're a new listener, and you enjoy the guest. Or maybe even the segments that we have in this episode, like the mystery question or free time. Either way, I would love your feedback. I know it's only February. But we're planning season 12 of think inclusive, which will, which will come out probably sometime in September. And I really want these episodes to be useful to you. Whether you're an educator, a parent of a child with a disability, a family member, an advocate, or just someone who wants to see inclusive education move forward in our schools in the United States and beyond. So if there's a topic that you'd love for us to cover, let me know. You can email me at T V vegas@mcie.org. That's T. V is in Victor i l l e g a s at MC i e dot o RG. And I don't mind getting email actually, I love it because it lets me know that people are listening. And so maybe you've been listening for years and you've never reached out. Please do. And let me know your thoughts.
That's it for this episode of thinking cluesive. Are you ready to move forward with Inclusive educational practices in your school or district? Come and partner with us? We don't just work in Maryland. We have partners across the country including Illinois, Virginia, Arkansas, Oklahoma. And guess what, there's more to come. We'd love to partner with you. Our work begins with a conversation. So reach out on our website MCIE.org And let's talk thinking cluesive is written edited sound design mixed and mastered by me Tim Vegas, and it's a pleasure to do so. I just love making podcasts. It is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Original Music by miles credits. Additional music from melody that's m elod.ie. This episode has been sponsored by Bookshare which is 100% free, so please check it out. bookshare.org Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works.
