Ep. 35: Birth Work in a Colonial Context w/ Sarah Michal Hamid
4:28AM Oct 26, 2022
Speakers:
LaKia Williams
Sarah Michal Hamid
Keywords:
people
birth
doula
hawaii
communities
midwives
rj
specifically
lactation
pandemic
obstetrics
reproductive justice
pregnancy
support
experience
doctors
abortion
reality
sterilization
feel
Welcome to Black Feminist Rants where we center conversations on reproductive justice and activism. I'm your host LaKia Williams and let's begin. Welcome back to another episode of Black Feminist Rants. In this episode, I had the absolute pleasure of interviewing my friend Sarah, who is a doula, a birth worker who has tons of experience in the reproductive justice movement. And so in this episode, she just provides a lot of education and history around birth work, as well as her specific experience of being a doula on occupied land in the kingdom of Hawaii. So without further ado, let's get right into the episode. So thank you so much, Sarah, for joining me for this episode of Black Feminist Rants. It's been a long time coming. To start us off, can you just introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, any titles or anything you would like to add and just like bring it to the space?
Yes. Thank you so much, LaKia, for having me. I'm so excited to be here on BFR. This is an honor. I've been here since the BFR early days, you know, back when-
OG BFR listener.
Like back when it was like episodes with less than two numbers. You know what I mean?
Oh, yeah. Before we got the double digits.
Yes! The double digits is now awesome. So my name is Sarah Michal Hamid, and I use she/they pronouns. And, yeah, I'm a birth worker. So that's kind of where I orient myself in the RJ spaces.
Perfect. Thank you. And we're gonna get more into the birth work in just a second. In the reproductive justice movement, we have a saying that everyone has a story to tell, to remind us to center people's lived experiences. So I was wondering if you could share a part of your RJ story with us?
Yeah, definitely. I didn't even know that there were infertility doulas. So that's great to know. But yeah, so you talked a little bit about your RJ story and how you got started with birth work? Oh, you mentioned something about, like, the physical and how, you know, just having different experiences with RJ. I feel like that definitely resonates with me. I feel like our RJ story is constantly changing, especially since we're like younger, like, we're just going to continue to live and have more experiences. So I feel like my RJ story when I started BFR is so different from my RJ story today, just because like things change, and things happen. Um, so
Yeah, that's such a great point. And I think that's why I really love the RJ movement, because it's, like, wherever your story starts or ends, there's power in it. And you know, there's power in your experience, and like, it's political, what happens to you, you know, so I really appreciate that.
Yeah, I love that your story is powerful, and no matter where it starts or ends, and I love that. Thank you for that, Sara. So I wanted to have you on the podcast because I know you're an amazing birth worker and doula. I just wanted to talk more about that. So to get us deep into the episode, can you explain what birth work is and the different types of birth work?
Yes. So birth work is essentially a practice of labor, of care work that is centering the experience of pregnancy, or postpartum and then anything else that can occur along that spectrum of reproduction. And birth work has been the oldest profession in the world. We've always been having babies. You know what I mean? There's no way around it. But most people don't know much about it. Like, there's so much stigma, you know, around midwives around doulas. And that's because we, you know, live in a very Western and specifically in the United States. You know, the model of of obstetrics and gynecology is inherently very anti-RJ, you know. There's very, like ,little room for RJ to come in unless we start from the inside out, which is what's starting to happen now I feel like.
Yeah, that's a great point. Definitely around this kind of like the stigma around midwives specifically and how we kind of like ostracize them. I feel like it's getting better now with like RJ being more incorporated in like the mainstream media and people like having this acceptance for doulas and midwives. But I feel like not so long ago, there was a lot of stigma. And like kind of this gatekeeping around obstetrics for just medical professionals who specifically like OB GYN and people with MDs and people who don't have like that level of education or just have, like, wisdom passed down from generations, like that wasn't seemed as like a priority, or it wasn't seen as helpful compared to, you know, the medical institution. So I feel like that's something that's getting better now. But that's definitely like a big divide, I would say.
Yeah, and I feel like the it's not necessarily that like, oh, you know, doctors have MDs, that's the reason why they're poorer providers, but it's because like obstetrics and gynecology is like a male dominated profession. It was for men to be in that role. So you wouldn't really see even that many, like, non men as OBGYNss, you know. And so that automatically just makes you think, like, what is this setup? Like, what is going on?
Right? That's so interesting, because as I said earlier, the reproductive justice movement wants to center people with the lived experience. But then when we think of, you know, cis men being OBGYNs, they do not have that lived experience of giving birth. So that's another interesting point. That brings it back to like the inception of RJ. So, thank you for that. Can you tell us a little bit about what drove you to want to be a birth worker?
Yes. So I wanted to become a birth worker and realized I wanted to become specifically a doula during the pandemic, actually, like right as the pandemic hit, I was working on this feminist economic recovery plan as an intern, and was working with a bunch of midwives of color. And that's where I met one of my mentors, who is fabulous, amazing midwife, Tanya Smith Johnson. And she really introduced me to the realities of birthing in hospitals as a person of color during the pandemic. And so, we were hearing and I was helping to intake stories of people's birth experiences as an intern. And it was just the most horrific, heart-wrenching stories like I could not, it kept me up at night. You know, it was stories like, you know, I wasn't allowed to have any support at all. I was by myself in labor, you know, and I had to labor with a mask on, you know, I had to push with a mask on, you know, I wasn't allowed to see my baby because I tested positive for COVID. It was like, literally just like, oh my gosh, awful stories. And so I knew that that was then something that I had not expected to do at that point in my life, but I was like, Alright, here we go. And then I became a trainee. I took my- I completed and took my full spectrum doula training with the Birth Workers of Color Collective in 2021. And then, yeah, I've been doulaing ever since.
What has the experience been like being a doula? What is it like supporting someone through whether it's pregnancy and abortion loss? What's it been like?
It's honestly felt very natural. For me it to me, I feel like being a doula feels like coming home to like the parts of myself that I need to be nourished, and know other people need to be nourished. And so coming home can also be stressful, because a lot of things happen in our homes that, you know, cause trauma, frustration, you know, spicy, deja vu and all these other things. And there's sometimes things in our homes that we have to confront, you know, and that's kind of what it's like, it's like, okay, this is a big old community that we're a part of, this is something that's happening in your life, like, let's get down to it, let's get real. Because when I started, I didn't really realize, like, how complex, you know, creating families is, and it was really like, in my experiences that I just learned, but there's a very big spectrum of what families look like, how they come together, how they're birthed. And I think that's probably been my favorite thing, because it makes me feel really grounded I guess in the fact that like, families just look different, you know, all of our families look different and like, that's a super queer thing to like, which is what I like about it especially.
Yes, I love that you said it felt like coming home and I feel like that's something I always say about finding the reproductive justice movement was like feeling like I found like my movement home but you said birth work just fell like coming home that is so beautiful. So thank you for sharing that with us. So you began your birth work journey, if I'm not mistaken in Hawaii. So can you talk about the experience of being a doula birth worker on occupied land?
Yes. So I became a doula during a very isolated time for a lot of birth workers, and at a point in time, where community was being created in interesting and unique ways. And what that looks like, was a lot of like virtual interaction, and a lot of virtual support. Because in our communities, like there was a lot higher risk of getting COVID, just based on the fact that most people were, you know, and for Native Hawaiians, Kanaka, Maoli, and other Pacifica and indigenous people in Hawaii, like that meant that their reality of being exposed contracting and getting COVID was like, exponentially higher than that of the East Asian populations or white or, you know, military populations even, just because of the different level of resources. And so what was really special about my experience in becoming a birth worker is that I was trained specifically by doulas from the communities that I was working with, and working a part of, and most of the clients that I've had, I've met in some capacity with before I became a doula, you know, and that was because I was a part of a community-based doula program. And so that program was probably one of the most important I would say, aspects of me understanding birth work in the context of colonialism and in the context of settler colonialism and as a settler, and so the program coordinator and leader was Kanaka, and they very much ran the program with an ethic of not just, you know, decolonial solidarity, but like, specifically anti-occupation, like anti-US occupation. And from that lens, I was taught basically, how the US military occupation of Hawaii impacts literally every single particular aspect of someone's birth experience in Hawaii. And that is cray, you know,
Thank you, I feel like people would like assume like, you know, occupation would impacted but for you to say like, every single like level of someone's birthing experience, or pregnancy is affected by military occupation is just kind of like mind blowing. So can you speak a little bit to the fact or to what has been the impact of settler colonialism on the practice of birth work in Hawaii and just like the practice of just being pregnant or giving birth?
Yeah, so I guess, to speak to the first piece, historically, midwives were the primary attendants of birth before you know, Captain Cook arrived. And before colonizers came, you know, with their dirty selves everywhere. And so, it was up until then, that midwives or the they call them Pale Keiki, or people that work with the children, or things like that, they kind of were seen as the knowledge holders, like the very central knowledge holders of information about childbirth, and it was a very, it's very spiritual for many communities. And for Hawaiians, they're a part of the exception. You know, many communities have a spiritual, sometimes religious, but spiritual aspect of birth work, we can see this across all communities. And so they were systemically pushed out of communities and kind of presented as the reason why maternal mortality and morbidity was a crisis, when in reality, midwives and you know, traditional birth attendants are not the ones causing the maternal mortality and morbidity crisis. Lack of access and structural systemic issues are at the core, you know, and so what that looked like in Hawaii was a series of white European trained doctors, you know, from like Cornell, you know, Harvard, the big, you know, medical institutions would go out to us colonies and occupied territories. This happened in Puerto Rico, you know, what do you can this happened also in Hawaii. In Puerto Rico, it looked like birth control experimentation, right. And it looks like a history of medical experimentation, right? On the people there against their will. And in Hawaii, it looked like erasing cultural birthing practices and instituting a rampant postpartum sterilization program so that people would produce less and by people we mean specifically Native Hawaiians, Samoans, Filipinos, women and birthing people. And this happened on the plantations in Hawaii.
Thank you for sharing that. That's definitely given me so much education, so much good education. It's kind of mind blowing to see how they really have the same formula and they just go into different communities and do the exact same thing to everyone.
Like yeah, you don't even know the half of it, because one of the main doctors that instituted this postpartum sterilization program in Hawaii his name was Dr. Nils P. Larsen. He was a Swedish doctor. He and Margaret Sanger were BFFs. And they-
I was just talking about this in terms of Puerto Rico on TikTok.
Yes.
They were sterilizing Puerto Rican women, or the birth control experiments not the sterilization
They were all up in each other's everything's, and they, because they were eugenicists, you know, that's what they do. They were like, we agree, let's do this thing. But actually, they're kind of plan, they would travel to Planned Parenthood Federation all over the world. Dr. Larson and Margaret Saner, and they actually basically formed the foundation for the WHO, World Health Organization, and, you know, population funds, specifically sterilization programs that would later devastate India and Pakistan and would actually impact my family. So to see the history, it was playing out very, very real time. It's very, it's very startling and scary.
Right? Because you're a Pakistani right.
Yeah.
Full circle. And then you see the impact on Hawaii, where you also live.
Yes. Yeah.
Very sinister actually, what they what they've managed to do. And then the lasting effects today, like it isn't like, oh, just happened in the past? It was issue of the past, like, no, it's still affecting people today.
Yeah, the majority of the doctors that and nurses that were trained in that postpartum sterilization program are still in practice today, and actually became the first you know, instructors at the medical school. There's only one medical school in Hawaii, you know. So that's a very important site to examine. You know, when we're thinking about institutions.
That's- so my next question was talking about obstetrics violence since the institution of Western medicine, but I feel like you're already getting to that. And that is, so I feel like I've been saying mind blowing and everything, but I just I can't wrap my head around how these people instituted a program to enact violence. And then they are the ones who are teaching the next generation of people who are going to be practicing medicine and a large number of them are going to be native and indigenous people. They're like, not coming to terms with their pasts and what they've done to people, probably the same people that they're teaching their ancestors, their grandma's great grandma's like.
And that is the coloniality of medicine. And like, that is something that I also continue to struggle with, as someone who like, works within the medical industrial complex and will continue to but not in the same way maybe doctors do. But it is it's a form really of, you know, educating the native within a white supremacist and Western oriented system of education, so that they're recruiting, you know, members of the marginalized communities in order to convey a certain message, shall we say, you know, without addressing the core issues that lead them to need to have better rapport with those communities. You know, it's very telling the way that people will take accountability in medicine and obstetrics and things like that.
Yeah. When you say a way of educating Native people, we just took me back to, like, boarding schools in like the United States, and how that was a form of violence on indigenous people in the Americas.
And it's, it's another practice to that was really common in South Asian and a lot of like Northwestern Africa. After you know, the colonizers left, there were these very similarly modeled after the Canadian and American system of boarding school, the British and French were like, yum, yum, yum. And so they did that to a lot of other people across the globe. And it's so full circle, like my dad actually attended one of those, you know, institutional boarding schools that was run by the British. And so like, these parallels of seeing the, the kind of American systems around the world is very, very telling, right of where, where, I guess the influence of violence and empire is, you know.
Yeah, and I love how you brought up like the connections to different countries because I think like a lot of times, when we talk about white supremacy, we can be very siloed and just like focus on the US just focus on one country at a time. But like, even something that's happening to the US is impacting people in other places. Yes. I just love that you're connecting it. Like, it's not just this one problem that the British did here. It's affecting marginalized people like, honestly, across the globe.
Yeah, yeah, everything's connected.
Definitely. So you've talked about the violence of settler colonialism and occupied occupation. So can you speak to some of the current organizing efforts of birth workers and reproductive justice organizers in Hawaii?
Yes. So there's a number of Kanaka-led organizations or native Hawaiian-led organizations. And I think that's really important for a number of reasons, because I myself am a part of, you know, collective of birth workers that is multi-ethnic, and like just a huge collective of birth workers of color. And I'm so grateful for that space. And I also really appreciate sometimes spaces with other South Asian or like, you know, "Middle Eastern" (in quotation mark) birth workers, because there's like, all these cultural connections that we get to make. And it's the same for black birth workers. And it's like, we're allowed to want to, like, be in spaces that are culturally, like, nourishing and not have to worry about that perception, you know, so I think like, people asked me about that a lot. They're like, what do you think about that, and like, well, like community spaces aren't necessarily for every community. That's just, that's how it's supposed to be. So number one, I was a part of their community-based doula program. And it's run by the Healthy Mothers Healthy Babies Coalition of Hawaii, which is a nonprofit that provides free and low cost or no cost midwifery care. They have something called the Mobile Midwifery Van, which is the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. And basically, it's a mobile midwifery van where you can get any prenatal care in it, they'll drive to you, you can get vaccinated, you can get like an annual checkup, you can get a Pap smear, you can get HIV tested, STI tested, you can get blood drawn, like it's kind of like a one stop shop, really cool. And that was started by just a group of midwives of color, they're Healthy Mothers Healthy Babies. And there was a lot of people during the pandemic in Hawaii, that were very, very afraid of getting vaccinated against COVID, you know, new parents and or pregnant people that were very worried about, you know, the impact of the COVID 19 vaccine for very valid reasons. And one big value that we really, like, I feel like drove home was providing information, support, and services at each person's direction. And so we really didn't push anything upon anyone, you know, we were just like, here's the information, here's what you want, if this is what you want, you know, here's what you can do to get there. And it was actually really successful. And a lot of parents, you know, made choices that they felt aligned with that they felt protected themselves. And it was really cool to see, like, health care done in that way. You know, and so that's why I really loved my time there.
Yeah, that sounds amazing. A mobile midwifery van, so they just like go to different neighborhoods and communities and just set up shop and people come get care?
Yeah, and so they could set up appointments up on their phone, there's a 24 hour, you know, Klarna patient portal. So there's, you know, always nurses and health care providers available and lactation consultants, that was like, another big thing was, you know, there weren't lactation consultants available to go in home. And you know, lactation is really hard. It's really glossed over, in a lot of people's, like, talks about birth work. But lactation is a huge field. It's very specific, you know, and it requires a lot of support.
I used to work at the New Orleans Breastfeeding Center, and I learned so much about lactation. And like, I just thought it was so simple, like, Okay, you get pregnant, you're, your body's producing milk, you just breastfeed. And that's not it at all. And then they had to have like contingency plans for natural disasters and like how to like preserve the breast milk for that. But one thing that I did learn about lactation is that Black and brown, specifically hispanic and Black people have like the lowest rates of breastfeeding and that many of the hospitals that are in Black and brown communities aren't, like, Baby Friendly hospitals, and they don't have the resources and the support to support parents in learning how to breastfeed so they don't provide like pumps or to teach you how to, like, use a spoon and like different methods to breastfeed and they don't provide that education. So then a lot of Black and brown people just don't have the support to breastfeed and and obviously, when we talk about capitalism. A lot of people are in jobs where they don't have, you know, a breastfeeding room. They can't take time to go and pump. And it's just like so many different structural things that prevent people from being able to breastfeed. So I'm glad you brought that up. That is a part of birth work that we didn't really mention. So I'm glad you mentioned that. But that could be a whole nother topic is charities and breastfeeding, no, legit.
And I think another thing that's important too, is like, as I mentioned, how, you know, the lactation field is huge and specific. And it's also white dominated. It centers white lactation specialists, like IBCLCs are 90 plus percent white, you know, and they're the leading lactation consultants are hired in the United States because they're internationally board certified.
When I was in New Orleans, in the center that I worked for, I think, I don't remember which which of the two ladies it was, but one of them was the only IBCLC IN state of Louisiana, the only black one in the state of Louisiana.
And that is wrong. That's a problem, like big problem. The fact that that can be said are so many different states, so many different communities. That is a problem. Like, that's really what I hope people like understand, really, like, I saw basically like the reality of like, okay, this huge pandemic is happening, but like, what about moms? Like, what about birthing people? Like, we're not talking, thinking, discussing them, like I was seeing it, and it was freaking out, because I know that during the pandemic birth disparities increased, you know, and so, like, what I really hope to see more people feeling comfortable with more young people especially, is like, your age does not determine, like the validity of your identity as a worker, you know, like, I became a birth worker at 20. That's super common, you know, we've been occupying roles like this long before we had formal training, or, you know, support like, this is something that's very natural to our communities, you know,
yeah, especially I know, like, I've had a friend who is a birth worker and hasn't, you know, given birth, and feeling like, you know, am I like, not as valid as a doula because I haven't had a pregnancy and I haven't given birth, and just reminding them like, you are just as valid in your experience, cuz you're still supporting people.
I feel that though. I feel that. Yeah, you know, it's hard for us young folk.
And I feel like I'm getting, I'm like, am I even young anymore?
That like I, okay. I literally had that thought, like, maybe a month ago, and I, you know, share that with one of our friends. And she was like, shut up. Like, yes, you are.
Okay, our friends make me feel old though. That's funny, but yeah now I'm 20. Like, I feel like with my friend group, 23 is like, Oh, my God, bitch, you're aging. And then I go to work. And like, I'm the youngest by like, five, six years, like girl, you're a child.
Literally, it's like, do you have wrinkles yet?
Right. Did you have any other organizations that you want to highlight?
Yeah, there's another really great one that provides prenatal services and birth services on the outer islands, specifically, not O'ahu, which is the "main island," but it's where Honolulu is so it's where a lot of like maternal health care services are centered. And this organization is important because a lot of people have to fly to O'ahu for prenatal care. On Maui, there's one hospital. On Lanai, there's one hospital. Moloka'i , there's one hospital, you know, on multiple islands, there's only one health care facility. And that's the reality. You know, a lot of people live in rural places. But there's this organization called Kalauokekahuli, yeah, it's supporting, you know, Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander families in a culturally relevant and engaging way, like having practitioners that look like you can change your life.
Yeah. And even you just bringing up the fact that multiple islands only have one hospital highlight the importance of meeting local birth workers, because not everyone can get to the hospital for every concern, or the hospitals might be booked, like, you need people in your community who can provide care.
And, you know, it's so interesting, because that actually used to be the model like hundreds of years ago, you would have midwives serving communities, you know, because most pregnancies ,80 plus percent of pregnancies, are low risk. And midwives can care for low risk pregnancies. And then that 20% of people were able to go to doctors, you know, able to get the specialized care that they need. And it served people well, you know, now we have so many, like, childbirth is safer than it has ever been medically, but it's not safe for people of color and for birthing people of color because of racism in medicine, right? Not because there's something wrong with our bodies. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that. You know, we have to look at the system that we're, we're working in here. It's very not great.
That's a great point that birth is getting safer, but not for people of color. We're dying more than other people. Like, it's just- what do they say? It's safer to get an abortion than to have a- to go through pregnancy as women of color?
Yup. And that is like, when I heard that kind of like, as like a one off, I was like, that's really concerning, because I'm selfish, and I want to have kids. And I don't want to live in a world where that's the stat and reality that I have to deal with. Like, I see it as like two sides of the same coin. And that's why like, I'm so glad to have been really like nurtured in a full spectrum birth work environment that didn't essentialize or prioritize one experience of reproductive health. You know, like, if it was very important to me that that whole spectrum be, like, nurtured and honored, because, like, any of those things can happen to us. And it has nothing to do with us, you know, but their experiences and, like, the less you know about them, like, the more likely you are to feel uninformed, you know.
I know, it's heavy, it's a lot. It's just like, but it's great. It's amazing that abortion is so such a healthy like process and like very safe, very small chance of any complications. And it's so sick that we're being forced into, you know, forced pregnancies and then have these high rates of morbidity and mortality. And you could just let us have these safe abortions and not have to be pregnant if we didn't want to or also improve maternal health.
Yeah, like, what if, like, all of our reproductive health care was quality, like,
Or quality for everyone and not just some people.
Okay, now that we need to get on some sort of bumper sticker. Like, that's the thing is like, yeah, there are some people who have quality reproductive health care. Who are they? Probably not us. I don't.
And it's like, a lot of times, I want to be like, okay, the higher quality healthcare and stuff. It's like, oh, it's capitalism. And you know, if you have more money, you can pay for better resources, resources and stuff. But then we see like, the disparities within the black community specifically, does not matter about your education or your income. We see people like Beyonce and Serena Williams struggling through pregnancy and birth. And it's like, not even like, having enough money can save you like it really comes down- even though racism and capitalism are intrinsically linked, it's so sick to see how disparities in maternal health outcomes is just based specifically on race, nothing to do with income or education.
Yeah, and I see a lot of like, this was a conversation, I was actually having a friend recently. And it's, it's, it's a messy conversation, because it really acknowledges that a lot of people or companies and organizations in the repro movement are able to like kind of capitalize off of a lot of these things. There's a lot of companies that have recently created, you know, digital telemedicine reproductive health platforms. A lot of them are white-led. I know there's one that isn't, but there's a number of them that I know of that are run, you know, by white people and white-
The telehealth clinics?
Yeah.
I think Pandia held it's written by an Asian woman. So that might be the one.
Yeah, but, like there's a lot of them out there. And another thing is that there's drama in the doula world, you know, there's a big debate, especially because there are a lot of white-led doula organizations that require you to pay to get certified and then maintain certification. There are a lot of questions around certification. I don't have a formal certification. I was in a community-based program, you know, and have taken multiple trainings. But the gold standard basically is the whiteled organization certification, which is a problem. And so when we're talking about things like Medicaid reimbursement for doulas, which is so important, we also have to like look at the fine print, because a lot of that includes doulas being able to receive their compensation through physicians, that is something to be very cautious and careful with, because doulas are ultimately community members, and we are not medical personnel and we are not tied for owing allegiance to any particular health organization. You know, we are not certified by a board and that's kind of the point, right, is that we're like autonomous community members. And the second that, you know, our financial compensation begins to be tied towards people who may or may not want to compensate us based on our support of their clients during their births.I'm like, I don't know about this y'all? Can we just Venmo? Can we like, figure out a way for it to be like legal and Venmo? Like, I think that we have to be more creative. We could do those things I feel like but that's another whole thing, too.
Yeah, that's that's a good point. Oh, yeah, it like gives physicians too much power. Why do they have to be a part of every decision-making process? I think even when they were trying to get like more nurses and midwives to be able to provide abortions, oh, just so provide abortions, like there was so much pushback from physicians like, No, this is our thing. When people can self-manage their abortions on their own, like they don't like physicians don't need to have control over every thing that's deemed help.
And also, why would you? Like that's the point that I'm just like, why do you want to be there? Like, why do you want to be the one, like, if you understand it, you know, it's intense, you know, it's like to pull that Kim K like, you know, I'm crying like, you know, that it's not working. Well, you know, it's like, intense, like, let people be, you know.
that was a great point. Thank you so much, Sarah, for joining me for this episode of Black Feminist Rants, I learned so much from you. Y'all, when I first met Sarah actually, she introduced herself speaking like native Hawaiian. She was telling us about the history of Hawaii. She was saying like, we're being occupied. We need to do this. I was like, so impressed. I was like, Who is this person? So I'm super glad like full circle that I've got to meet you in person. And we're friends now and that you've been on the podcast, because you just have so much knowledge to share. I'm so happy that you were on this episode.
Thank you so much for you. This was an honor. This is a fun experience, since this is the one only podcast I listen to. It's like, oh my gosh, look, Mom.
