Social Justice Beyond the Counseling Office with Dr. Christopher Townsend

8:30PM Mar 8, 2024

Speakers:

Christopher Townsend, PhD

Keywords:

counselor

counseling

people

advocating

happen

advocacy

social justice

police officers

hear

person

means

townsend

life

podcast

work

clients

talk

place

oppression

legislation

Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.

Welcome, everyone to the thoughtful counselor Podcast. I'm Dr. Stacy speedlane Gonzalez, happy to be here with you all. I'm really, really excited today about our special guest, Dr. Christopher Townsend. Dr. Townsend as someone who is well known for his work in social justice and advocacy. We are very privileged to have him on the podcast today as he talks to us about why it's important that we advocate and provide social justice opportunities for our clients beyond the scope of merely our counseling practices. Dr. Townsend, it's an honor to have you today. And thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Townsend, I am extremely familiar with your work and really, really tremendously excited to be interviewing you today. One of the things that I wanted to begin with was really for you to just touch on. What do you mean, when you talk about this need for advocacy? Beyond the counseling office? Can you tell us tell our audience about what that means to you? And and why that's of value to you?

Yeah, well, you know, we think from a historical perspective, even as we were children, we heard stories of those who were advocated for. So this is not a new concept that we've been introduced to, we all heard part of the story of Robin Hood, who stole from the rich to give to the poor, in so many ways, you know, he was advocating for poor people, disadvantaged people. And he saw a system that was unjust. And he sought out to do something about that right advocating for stealing, but I'm just using that as an example that we've all been shown that or even from children. And if you want to look at languages or a biblical perspective, we saw Jesus advocating. And so even within a religious context, it's always been there where the poor are those who have been disadvantaged, someone needs to step up, and assist and help. And so all around us, there's always been structures or pathways where someone's stood in the gap. For others, I just this week, I saw a television show where then we're setting up scenarios, where someone who has been bound tried or spoken harshly to, to see what people would do. And usually, there was an advocate someone who would stand up and say something and defend the person. So when we look at counseling, I don't think it's any different because of the authority and power that we walk in the influence that we have, there's an opportunity to equalize systems that are oppressive to our clients. And so historically, advocacy and social justice when theories were developed, it was developed for white middle class men, and they weren't dealing with depression, their problems are very different than the problems that a lot of marginalized people are facing today. So as counseling has evolved, there is a need we see the need for advocacy and social justice to be a part of our work. And we're happy that our professional organizations will be in agreement, because it's written into our codes of ethics, that we are to be doing advocacy, because it directly impacts on talking about oppression, to various isms. It impacts the wellness of people. And so it would behoove us to really embrace how we help those people otherwise we could really miss our wellness for a whole group of people if we do not address the systemic oppressions and the life experiences of certain people in our country. A

brilliant way to begin this conversation. And I love that you referenced Robin Hood, because I suppose some people would take exception with who he was and what he did because he was stealing. And so makes me wonder, in what ways do you see modern day issues related to what Robin Hood? Did? Do you see people, for example, who maybe feel less comfortable with advocacy, because it seems like an outlier behavior?

Yeah, I just can't see doors. You know, some things you just got to take, for sure. And we do that methodically. And we do it civilly. And we make all those efforts to do so. But I think all petitioning sometimes seemingly isn't necessary. So there's a place for it all. And I don't remember the that quote, I believe it was Dr. King, who talked about rioting is the voice of the oppressed, and that you keep, continue to oppress the people. And they will riot and that is their voice. And I'm paraphrasing what he said. And so there's a reason for the rioting, there is a reason for the behavior, because they're not being heard. They're not being listened to. And, and it's an expression of the dire straits that they've been in their backs, or have been placed up against the wall and no help is coming in. So then it takes an us counselor, who are who's respected in the community, to use that influence to try and open the doors, and to change systems and to change laws. And sometimes we don't think about counseling in that way. And then there's still groups of people or groups of counselors and don't believe that advocacy and social justice should have such a significant role in the work that we do. I'm grateful that that is changing. But there's still a lot of people out there who don't believe we shouldn't be doing the work to the extent that we are. And so I believe that we have to challenge the status quo. And there's a group of people who say that we should be neutral and not take a political position on one side or the other. Well, we don't have that luxury to choose that, because what our clients show up, they show up with their life experiences. And as a result of that, we will choose to help them with that like experience, which then means we just entered some political ram of some sort, to help them with their mental distress. And if we can't talk them through, because there is an external pressure of an injustice that's happening, then that means we have to teach them empower them to do something about it, themselves. And if it's beyond their scope of resources, then guess who's next in line to help if the counselor and then the counselor then can reach out within the community and, and this is what I call kicking down the doors, began to collaborate and say, this is a problem, can we create some resistance towards that and open the door, so this person can no longer be assaulted or repressed or cause trauma or distress in their lives. And if that doesn't work, then that's when we start looking at changing law, writing legislation. And again, counselors don't think of themselves in the light. But as we evolve, I think that we will become more engaged and active or we should become more engaged and active in those type of that type of work. If we're truly going to liberate people, and help people. And I know we don't use that term a lot in counseling. But we've seen it in the evolution of many religions, where there was a liberation, there was freedom that came as a result of the work that those institutions did. And I don't see counseling in a different because we're in the do gooder the human service field so what they're dealing with directly impacts the type of work that we will have to do. So that's that's how I'm praying the work and that's what I mean by sometimes, like rather than sometimes you just got to take what you need. And and again, I'm not advocating about modifying anything but Um, you walk into some places, and you can get strong, and your position. And you're and you're advocating, and you can be relentless in advocating for those people who can't advocate for themselves. And that's just the passion of the counselor talking. And that's the counselor who's carrying the stories of those people who can't speak for themselves or did not be listened to. And so being called Dr. Townsend, well, it's a privilege, it's also a burden, because the title in the profession called me to be uncertain for those people who are hurting. And so when you take that, that badge of honor, then it's going to call somebody, and it's going to cause you some time, it's gonna, it's a risk that you're taking, because you're fighting this, this, this force, this thing that has historically been there, and every employee, we happen to be at a time in our life, just this week, we saw supremacy, white supremacy and Nashville. And interesting was during Black History Month, I don't think that was a mistake. So so there is a force that would say, we want to keep things as it is. And because it comes with force, we also have to have some resistance back. And we choose how we do that. And, as I said earlier, I tend to be on the whitelist, the kingside of peaceful petitions, and but we have to legislate, we have to push those agendas. And we have to stay in those people's faces, and figure out ways to pull the right strings to get what we need for the people we serve.

Yeah, absolutely. And I so appreciate your, what you're sharing with our audience. And I have to ask this question, because I can't help but think that there may be members of our audience listening to this podcast right now thinking to themselves, well, I'm a new counselor. I'm in school right now, this is part of the curriculum that my professor required me to listen to this podcast and everything that you say, sounds wonderful. And I'm so glad that you're on the firing line. But I couldn't possibly be. Because I'm still afraid. I'm still afraid to take a stance against these challenging narratives and these systemic structures that have been so rooted in in our spaces for centuries. And so what would you say to someone who genuinely would like to be where you are, in terms of your philosophy? And in terms of your courageousness? How did you get to that space?

Right, right, right. Well, I'm in the year 24. And it's always been a part of my life. It's always been who I am. And I, I guess I'm just one of those people. I'm always in the movie, rooting for the underdog. I've always wanted the little personal are the weak person in the sense of how we sometimes see people to win. So I love that good story in that narrative. And I hate bullies. I just despise bullies. And when you hear the harm that oppression causes and isms, that what they do to people, the trauma that they bring, at some point, you realize that your counseling may not be effective, that it's gonna take something or you feel helpless in the room, because we realize that it's not the person that has the problem. The person has become a victim. And they need help. And so our Code of Ethics would say that if we can't help the person that epically, we refer we do something else. Well, if we recognize that there is an alternation or oppression or something along those lines, and the next step is advocacy, and social justice work. So our field has evolved from multicultural counseling to social justice. However, we're still practicing the first, second third forces of counseling. Why aren't we advancing into multicultural? Why are we not advancing into the social justice because I feel has evolved there. The roadmap is there, but we still have people who are not willing to practice it. I think that's unethical. And that's a real problem for our profession. And so then what does that mean? For people of color or, or any group that has been discriminated against, what does that mean for us? Can we get help? Or can we not get help? And will we be just left to the world? Or will someone stand up and say, This is wrong? And let me help you. And I'll give you an example. Everyone has been advocated for in some way. But I've had personal advocacy. That was there for me. And this is when I really realized the value of that. I had police officers show up to my home. First time we showed up, they said, Are you Christopher counted? I say, yes. They said, We have a warrant for your arrest. And I said, No, sir, you do not. And I can say that, because I knew I had not done anything. And I said, Do you have ideas? Uh, sure. So I gave him my ID. And he said, Sorry, sir, for Bobby. The officer that a couple days later, I get home, another officer shows up. That Are you critically Calvinists, and they have a warrant for your arrest? No, you do not have a warrant for my arrest. Can I see your ID I said, Sure. Show him my ID. My children said that why police officers come into our house like this, that they're looking for someone that shirts, okay. Well, the next day, as soon as I arrived home, another officer shows up. And by this time, I'm getting pretty perturbed. And so I'm thinking like, my neighbors must think I'm some criminal. And it's making my family nervous. And, and I'm getting a little perturbed at this point. So also like, well, could I see you I'd be like, This is our last time show him I think I've told you all he doesn't live here, you know, he doesn't live here. Do not come back to my home. Unless you call can change it in your system. Can you make a note that this guy does not live here, we have the same name, we have different initial middle names do not come back. Well, long behold, they continue to come back. So what do I do? I've asked him to stop. I've asked for them to change. And it seemed like it will be a very simple fix. Like he put in your system. Wrong guy, wrong house. Period. Well, it did not stop it was. And by this time, you know, we know black men get shot, often by police officers. And it's my home, I haven't done anything, I have the right to protect my home, protect my children, my children are afraid. And they're also gonna think if they feel threatened, I can get shot. So I'm getting stressed. I'm feeling hopeless. What can I do against the police officers? I mean, they can easily say I became aggressive, or, you know, these are the experiences or thoughts that were going through my head. And so I just happened to be talking with a mentor of mine who happens to be a white woman. And we're just sharing with her what was happening. And she was in relationship with that police department. She had an award winning program with them, where they were helping to our drug dealers and the alternative to selling drugs. And so again, it was award winning program. And she went to that Chief of Police. I didn't know she did this. But one day, my phone started ringing relentlessly. And we answer calls and we don't know who it is, we just kind of look at it and let it ring or call off. And but they will not stop. They just kept calling out like man is somebody trying to get me so I answered the chief of police profusely apologizing for the experience that I was having. He said that it would not happen again that the officer would not return to my home. And again, just apologize. And so I later found out as my white mentor told him, this is not a guy you want to mess with you actually want him on your team be obligated for him. She she couldn't do what I couldn't do for myself. So you would think well, why would this white woman have to do this for this black man? Why wasn't his word good enough? Why wasn't his validating he wasn't the person good enough? Well, there's not the world that we live in. And you can microaggression say, Well, you know police officers are really really busy, and they just probably didn't have time to change the system. Welcome. Hey, I'm gonna scope up my house and wait for me to come home, you had time to type in some notes, you could have done it, but you didn't consider me important enough to make a simple chain. And so I use that story often because now, if I didn't have the pointer to the good coping skill, I could have very easily ended up in a counseling session. Because I was anxious, I was afraid my family was stressed out. We knew our home was being watched. And, and that wasn't a good experience. So if I would have shown up in a counseling session, are you going to use CBT? Army to say I'm having irrational thoughts? And I'm generalizing here, what theory are you going to use to help me. And I would say, that's probably not a theory is natural sense that would have felt I would have needed advocacy, I would have needed social justice intervention, as that happened with my colleague or my mentor, informally going, and advocating on my behalf, to this gentleman. And so. So this is what I will tell the students are this is an example, that when it's happened to you, and you felt helpless, and it will happen to you and all the way in some way, whether you are a woman and you're mistreated, or whatever your minoritized status might be, it's going to happen. And you'll know what it feels like, you'll know that helplessness feeling you'll know what you don't want for others. And then when you hear the stories, it's like, okay, I have to respond because someone responded to me, someone helped me. So that's what happened, I, I was initiated through the fire. And then, so it's part of my, my need to be Robinhood. And it's part of my need for a more chess world.

A more fair world. And it's also, I don't want to feel helpless in a counseling session as a counselor, that I can't help the person because we're counsel, we have a need to help people we desire to help people. But in the scenario, you can't help unless you advocate unless you enter that courageous space. And you knock down some walls for people where it will have generational impact. And yes, advocacy of social justice means you are fighting a system that sometimes abstract, but you don't have to do it alone. Sometimes it feels like you're alone. But there are others around you, who can join you in doing the work. But there's always risks. And it always has been risks. If you look at civil rights, that peaceful advocacy, people lost their lives of all ages, all races, all sexes, all religious denominations, people lost their lives for change. And I'm not asking anyone to give you a life up for it. But I do believe a life worth living is a life worth giving, if you so believe in it. And it's because people gave their lives and we can even be here today to even be able to do this work still, because they're not civil rights here. And even people before that. They fought for height for us. And unfortunately, that that progress has been threatened right now, as we are living those freedoms and those rights are being attacked, have been attacked. And they are unraveling the progress. And so it's a it's a scary time to be in this world and to be in this profession. Because it's going to find itself in our offices, you're not going to be able to run from it. It's going to show up in your office. And you will have to take up position, which means you have to equip yourself because it's it will show up in which lead and that's what I love about counseling because you're not the person who will be in the next year or two years, the next five years. I didn't ask for this. Matter of fact, I don't want to do it often. But it's something that me that can't sit still and watch it without saying something. Whatever system I'm in, that is what conversation. I'm sure my colleagues Well friends. Perhaps we get tired while Facebook is riddled with it. That is my message. I've just watched the Bob Marley movie. And one of the quotes on love so passionately, is sometimes the messenger becomes the message that struck me so powerfully that sometimes you become the message. And and, and then becomes so much a part of you that you just can't help it. And so it's an evolving experience. And, and it won't leave you alone almost was at home. But it is then in love with humanity, as a counselor will love humanity, it becomes your point.

And I think about as I'm listening to you talk this concept of professional identity, and advocating for our profession. I think one of the challenges with counseling is really who we are at our core, we have our core values, we have our code of ethics, we have all of these task forces that outline who we're supposed to be professionally, but we really don't talk about who we are in terms of our core as human beings. And oftentimes, you know, we become kind of the jack of all trades, I think we're expected to be we're supposed to know everything about every population. And if we don't learn, we're supposed to provide any service that's comes across our path. And frankly, I see a trend of counselors who won't even do that. You see clients who come in, and they say, there's no food in the pantry. And the counselor says, Well, I'm not a social worker, that's not my job. And we will send our client away hungry, you know, as opposed to let me look up and find a food pantry in my area, or clients who come in with FMLA paperwork. What are you saying?

Definitely. That we make sure the basic needs are met first. It is our job. Sometimes I felt like this case management isn't therapy until they're ready for therapy. Because if you're hungry, what good is your therapy called the introspection that's needed to do the clinical work is a higher order feature. But my stomach is growling, I can't hear anything. You're saying. If I'm not saying I can't hear anything, you're saying. So you forcing the therapy becomes unethical. Because you're not really meeting the need. And you were made aware of it. And so there's an accountability. So I would question your professionalism, of questioning your competence. If I saw you forging our in a therapeutic, or what you would think as a therapeutic relationship, and you didn't meet the basic needs, or make a call or, or give a resource. And so we have to be held accountable, again, for the essential basic needs of those who will come. And it's so much more than just talk there. And, and so we are humanitarian, who have been privileged to sit in the seat that we sit in, you gotta know the authority and power you walk in. And, you know, understand what a master's degree mean, what a PhD means. You are serving with wisdom, to our knowledge, to serve humanity.

And what you're talking about is human rights. It's as basic and essential as food. Right. In fact, some are denied basic rights, access, access to medication, access to medical care, access to, you know, reproductive, whatever, whatever it is, it's the ability to ease safety in your own neighborhood, the right to due process.

Yes, I want that constitution to live in order to demonstrate itself. But every American, every citizen, it should be in a pathway to access the promises of our Constitution. That's what I'm after is the army sent me the promissory note that it has given I still want the 40 acres in the bill that was taken away the land that was taken the you know, as I traveled through taxes in some other places. You know, we talked about that concept of Robert Byrd. And you see injustice new seeking, or happen when we know history will repeat itself unless you know it. And so when you see these things, you have to speak to it. Because you know, history, history it was so you have to become boisterous, you have to become relentless. And these things I sure don't want to be a politician. But what I'm saying to counselors that I don't think we're going to be avoided, if we're going to do the real work, if we're going to be truth tellers, over those capsules who have PhDs, a PhD means that you are a truth teller, you do research, you do counseling, and you tell the truth. You're after the truth. So how do we avoid not seeing we see it is obvious is blatant. And then you have the research to support it. And that shouldn't equate to practice a different type of practice. But there's a disconnect, then my guess is that the truth tellers are afraid to tell truth. Or they don't want to believe the truth when they see that symmetry, because it means something about them, perhaps it means something to them, perhaps. But either way, it can be in a pleasantry. Because it's the truth. So, so that's what I'm after I'm after the truth. And we know the world sometimes just don't like the truth. And they do everything they can, to hide it, and to suppress it. Because it means that their lives will change into truth, and accept. So that's the struggle. That's the battle that we're in, is to allow the truth to be what it is. And to fight for that truth, because it will change the nature of Cooper world, that's what happened with George Floyd was killed. During the time period of COVID, we were stuck in the house, things are shut down in this tooth penetrated, and we could not avoid, we did not get away from it, we were made to watch a modern day lynching. And we couldn't get away from it. And there was no denying that it happened. And it happened in such an inhumane and arrogant way that the world had to address it. That's the type of truth telling where we can't deny and avoid it, that we happen to look at it. And it becomes transformational. And here we are as counselors and the seat to help foster these troops, and to help bring healing to the hearts of people on all sides on all fronts. And whether you see the person as the antagonist protagonist, they're still ours to work with. And we have the privilege and gifting to do so. And I dare anyone to sit in the seat and not be willing to be fair, and administration of the resource. That is unethical, that is humane. And that is worth a reporting to a board when you see people not practicing to bring healing and wellness to a people. And that includes not advocating for not applying social justice principles. And in some ways, you know, I wonder if we shouldn't have that trend starting already. When we have, you know, 23% several 100 participants who would tell me that they weren't sure if this is a webinar now within had 23% of people polled that several 100 100 participants say they weren't sure. Or they didn't believe social justice had a place in California. And these were counselors. What do you mean you don't know? Or you don't think so you have a code of ethics that says you shouldn't be practicing. So I have real data to show that even in our profession, there are those people who are still saying they're not sure what we should be doing social justice, but I don't think we should be doing at all at all. We have a problem even in the profession and This is what I'm after. After the Trump implementation, just as we did, of course, one, two and three, and four or five to be bullied opponent.

You mentioned about George Floyd. And one of the main reasons I wanted you on this podcast is you do some really interesting work Beyond Counseling space. And I'd love for you to talk about the work that you did after George Floyd was murdered.

Now, yeah, yeah, well, I didn't know what to do. Initially, as an African American man that just ripped my soul out to watch. And even talking about now, years later, I feel something in me emotionally to watch that. And I knew I needed to do something. And I'm not a person who's gonna go out marching and Riot, that type of thing. I think those things it has its place. And, but I, I knew I needed to do something. And so I look back at the old warriors, Dr. King, and those folks in terms of how did they resist and what did they do? And I can paraphrase, and I remember Dr. King said something like, I can't make you love me. And that's not going to keep people mentioned. Well, law will keep you from religion, we hope. And so I've been knew that I needed to try and push for some legislation to address police brutality. And so a rally those people around me that I knew had expertise in, and that's what I'm gonna get to. And I said earlier, you don't have to do this by yourself. You just got to know people who know what they know. And I'm resourceful. And I call people that expertise. And I said, Look, I need some help. And I said, this is why I'm going to do a lot to create legislation that would, that would change how police officers treat people of color. And we started our journey. And we actually created a bipartisan view. And we did research and we looked at creating, we adopted a model that was already effective, it was being used with police officers and got a police officer involved in it. So we did our homework, we reached out and we covered everything. There's no stone unturned and got a bipartisan bill to pass that would provide a multicultural training for police officers that was already accepted, we just wanted to become law. On four unfortunately, that bill, no bills that year, was heard that are along the lines of police brutality in the legislation that year. But the process of getting to that place was amazing and liberating. And learning how to write, build, that can become long, and long still have a lot more learning to do. I'm not afraid of that process. And as a counselor, now joining other counselors to do this is empowering to know that through relationships and connections, you can get bill moving. And you can speak to your legislators about issues and they can hear your passion. You share your passion with them, and they may take it up. But it doesn't happen unless you started. And unless you start that fire, somebody else can pick it up who has other influence, and that becomes a movement. And so I think we'll go back and revisit some of those spaces again, because the movement is still needed. And so you know, so again, I said I didn't want to be a politician, which can seem very easily how influence in politics, still don't want to be a politician. But now I see a gateway and opening to fight aliens to fight the premacy to fight those. Those bills that would literally kill people and not protect people in our streets of America. These are not the ideals that the country is founded upon. Well, maybe it wasn't supposed to be for everybody. But we're still here and we're saying Oh, is this what everybody and it's gonna be for everybody. And I'm claiming it. And particularly as an African American man, my people help to build this nation. Without us. Without our contribution, there is no America in the way that we know it. And so I take my rightful position. And so those people who fought for me to be Dr. Taylor to be where I am, I owe it to those people who would sit in my chair, and come for help. And so the powering pieces that I got to know how to do legislation, how to do bills, and Graduate School doesn't teach you that. And, and that's the new era, I think, that our education has to address is the pathways to do social transfers and advocacy. That is an extension of counseling. That is the evolving field. And as soon as we can get there, the last that number will be around whether people think social justice can be shouldn't be a part of counseling or not, but multiculturalism. It starts with the education. And we can't allow government to control education. And so and we see that happening now, where they are saying, what we can teach. And what we can't teach are, we see in Florida, those things that are happening, where ignorant statements have been made around slavery helped black people or whatever group that were enslaved in that they acquired skills from it and, and just ignorant. And these are legislators, making such gross error and spewing propaganda. And in many places I've studied genocide, the very things that accent many of these people are doing is what causes genocide in Rwanda. When you look at the pathways and processes of how genocides occur, where all always operating on three or five of those cycles, at any given time setting it, and we see it, and we hear it. And so it is a scary time for this nation. And you keep hearing these rumors of conflicts and things. And so again, people gonna show up, whatever is happening in the world, in the macro, will show up in the doors, so we have to do the processing for ourselves. And that's why we have to be courageous to do this work. Because we hear huncles we hear the reflections of what life is. And we're called to help well, we don't have a Hippocratic Oath, like physicians, when we get this degree, that is our oath to say that we're going to help all humanity, whoever walks in the door, I'm going to help. And so then your call to a higher order a higher calling. And so, you know, it's called card. It's called courage. And that walk towards writing a bill was my heart broken desire to put myself out there in a courageous way. And to go against an institution that even challenged me by an institution that was employed by didn't like the fact that I was doing that work. And I said to them, don't make me choose. I don't make me choose this work, or I'm being important with you. I'm a social scientist against social issues as a counselor, and you're telling me that saving the lives of brown people isn't important to you, because of your politics. And I'm being innovative, and I'm doing everything from a researchers position to help change the world. But you are afraid of politics or somebody pulling money back or what is your fear? Because there's no price online for me. And so you could say people are inconsistent police officer. So then I had to advocate and fight within the institution. So not only was I fighting, legislatively, but I was fighting as part of my employment and had to say, don't make me choose, because I'm not going to stop this work. So that is what those young clinicians sometimes that's what it could cause work because it's your path. It's what's your call to it's what you believe in and, and I can't let Brett That's oppression, I can't let the threats of your oppression stop me from being what I'm called to. And, and, and being a counselor, in my opinion has to be in color, if you want to be successful in it.

You gotta be, I mean, we don't get a lot of thank you in this work, we don't make a lot of money in this work, it has to be a calling, you got to fill it in so that you have to do this. Anybody who's been in it the entire time. They're called, they're called to. And so this is another level of the calling. And there are some sacrifices along the way. There are sacrifices, but is worth is worth and sacrifice for the bettering of humanity.

i So, so appreciate so many things that I've taken away from our conversation today. What I hear is that courage is necessary. And that means sometimes being uncomfortable. And in this professional space, if you can't be uncomfortable, you may not be in the right place. Right? I hear that you in this work that you do, you don't only advocate for the underserved or the marginalized, you're also advocating for the profession, because you're giving us a face in political spaces. And you recognize the value of what counselors have to offer in civic engagement. And you're not afraid to engage people who maybe don't feel accessible to others. But we are their constituents, our state representatives, our senators, we are their constituents. And I know that you did your homework, and you chose a senator that had a specific similar view on some of the topics that you found to be important to you. And you were willing to engage that Senator and you were willing to engage Junior counsel and other students that were in the profession who wanted to learn how to do this work. So your advocacy, my friend is multi tiered, and three dimensional. And I appreciate you for that. I love this podcast. And I love the fact that I'm interviewing you today, because every now and then when I interview people, I know that this conversation will age beautifully. And 10 years. I'm excited to see what you're doing then. What's the point? Colin, thank you so much, my friend for imparting this wisdom in these jewels of knowledge with our audience today. And that concludes our time. Thank you to all of our audience for listening to the thoughtful counselor today and Dr. Townsend thank you for being you. Thank you so much to everyone and please join us again in our next episode.

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