Hey friends welcome back to another bonus episode of cubicle to CEO. The podcast where we ask successful entrepreneurs the business questions you can't google. Speaking of answers that aren't so easy to find online, you'll be privy to never before told stories and juicy disclosures in our gutsy themed interview with my friend Natalie Franke today, in celebration of Natalie's second book, Gutsy launching this August. You may know Natalie already as the author of Built To Belong, host of The Independent Business Podcast, and chief evangelist at Honeybook, but you'll get to know her in a whole new way when we put her in the hot seat to spill her guts on her gutsiest moments. And you guys Natalie comes through for us. We hope this honest conversation encourages you to be brave too. And in tandem with this episode release, Natalie generously agreed to give away five signed copies of her new book to five of you lucky listeners. We're hosting this giveaway on threads. So click the first link in the show notes below to go directly to my threads profile @MissEllenYin, where you'll see our Gutsy book giveaway thread and instructions to enter. Make sure you give @NatalieFranke, a follow on threads too. You have until July 27 to enter so hey, don't procrastinate go into while you're listening to this. Good luck.
All right, everyone. I have one of our fan favorites back today. Natalie, you all love her. She's a mama bear small business. And Natalie, I just am so excited for your second book to come out. I still distinctly remember your first book coming out because there's this really funny picture of me where I went camping with my I have to send it to you. It's actually hilarious. And I totally forgot about this picture until recently when I was on my bachelorette trip and my best friend Claire, she created this really funny game. It's kind of like Cards Against Humanity or apples to apples, but it's what do you mean if you've heard of it before?
Yes.
Do you know, that game? Okay, so it was I can't remember what the caption was but basically like she had my sisters and my other best friend, Dassi, and my mom sent in really embarrassing photos of me and then they would put up like a prompt and you know, they would all just like put like the worst pictures but there's this really funny one that I again forgot about until I saw it then it's me in this what I call my blanket coat. It's an actual like a NorthFace coat but it looks like it just a big blanket and then I kid you not I have like a headlamp on like it's strapped to my forehead with like a huge beam of light coming out of my forehead. And it's just me in this little chair reading built to belong with this huge headlamp and in this like, pitch dark. And it is so funny. Like I have to send you the photo, it's freaking hilarious. Anyways, I digress. So all this to say I'm very excited to welcome your second book into the world, Gutsy. And just for fun today. I know you've been doing this series asking people you know what gutsy means to them all these things I wanted to put you in the hot seat. So we're gonna do like a rapid fire lightning round and discover all of Natalie's gutsiest things. Are you ready for this friend?
This is gonna be spicy. Yes, yes.
Okay, we're diving in. Here we go. Ready? The most gutsy thing I've ever said is...
Oh god, okay, okay, this is really bad. I the most gutsy thing I've ever said is telling a friend that they need to like break up with someone, like really like he's got to go. Okay, like he's got to go and I remember I was so nervous because again, you know this is a dear friend of mine. But I yeah, basically convinced her to break up with her boyfriend of like five years.
Wow. Okay, first I gotta say I'm actually really impressed, it is gutsy to say that to someone you love, not knowing what their reaction could be. But be I'm truly impressed that your friends listen to you only for the fact that you know how like when your friends ask you for relationship advice. It's kind of like this behavior that you give your advice and inevitably there. That's good advice, but they don't apply it until listen. Yeah, until they come to their own realization about it. And you can have this patient like yeah, you know, you'll find your way in your own due time but the fact that she listened like wow,
Yeah, but hey, listen, I and we talked about this in the book I talked about the fact that we don't often navigate the world looking for the truth we navigate the world looking for validation that will be already suspect to be true is in fact true. And so when she asked me about him when she was like, what do you really think? Yeah, there was a moment where I realized, like, she needs me to tell her the actual truth here, because there's a part of her that also acknowledges it. And maybe is clinging to that comfort zone and isn't ready to leap into being single again, and kind of that risk of taking the future that other people or you thought you would have and just thrown it out the window to pursue what's really right for you.
And so I suspected, I suspected that she really wanted me to tell her the truth, which is no he's not good for you. This is toxic. Like, it's time. It's time and it's gonna be okay, actually gonna be better than okay. And so yeah, I'm grateful. I mean, again, like, now we're in a whole different season of life, and she's with somebody new and they're super happy. But yeah, I'm gonna be, like that really, when you when you said that, I got really uncomfortable, and I remember that moment, because I was like, Don't say it. Don't say it. Just smile. Not No, not you gotta be gutsy. You love your friend enough to tell you the truth. And the truth is, this relationship is no longer serving her it is time.
Go you for being a true friend. All right, that one was about someone else. But this one's gonna have to be about you. The most gutsy first move I've ever made is, and this doesn't have to be a first move. Like, oh, I asked out someone like first move in anything that you were just so scared to do.
Yeah, gutsiest. So I will say I was the one to officially make the first move on my husband. Like I asked him out, although he or introduced myself and all that, but he would say no, I'm not telling the truth. But I am. I really am the first one. He likes to think it was him. It wasn't. But that's not the answer.
I'll give the gutsiest first move I ever made was chasing down Gary Vaynerchuk in San Francisco, California, because I was desperate to have him speak in an online event with me. And I mean, I literally chased him down. Like I'm there may be things down the street. Yeah. Like there may be a restraining order against me at this point after that. But yeah, so a little bit of backstory on this fun one.
Basically, we were hosting an online Summit. We were raising money for charity, and I really wanted to have him come on and speak. But getting through to somebody like Gary Vee is nearly impossible. Unless you know, someone who knows someone. Well, guess what, I didn't know someone who knows. So when I knew no one, so we essentially had our eyes out for any opportunity to convince them to do it. And my husband being the Sleuth that he is at the time, was following Gary Vee on Snapchat, and saw Gary post a snap of him with someone from his team at a coffee shop in San Francisco and I kid you not my husband triangulated this coffee shop and found his location based on other people sharing about seeing Gary on like Twitter and other places and identified the exact Pete's coffee NSF, to which she called me and my friend Martha, who is now the CEO of Flodesk. Her and I were both working at Honeybook at the time together on the same team. And we were like, alright, we're dropping everything. And so we just ran, we couldn't even get an Uber and time we sprinted out of breath huffing and puffing to try to get to this coffee shop before Gary left. And I think I scared the living daylights out of him. But the good news is I did get there in time. I got to meet Gary, he's wonderful. You put up with my wildness and said yes to speak at the summit. And he said, Yeah, so that's pretty gutsy.
Oh, my god, okay. I'm like literally envisioning this in my head. And I actually could see myself doing something similar. I haven't, but I could see. So I have to applaud you for truly like, you know, carpe diem you like, you just just seize it, it you seize the moment, and you were like this, the universe has put us in the same place at the same... Well, relatively close, same place at the same time, and you just went for it. And I think there's something to be said about recognizing an opportunity when you see it and realizing that the regret of living with having not, you know, shown up in that way is far greater than any embarrassment or potential first judgment from from an unknown person may have on you. I have to know though I feel like our listeners would be disappointed if I didn't ask, how exactly did you like how did you phrase that invitation in such a way that he cared to even consider it?
Yeah, so let me put it this way. It was not well crafted from the 45 seconds of notice I had on the call with my husband. To like the three minutes, four minutes of sprinting. Not a lot was going on in my brain other than, you know, don't puke. But I do remember saying something to the effect of "Hi, Gary, you have no idea who I am. And frankly, it doesn't matter who I am. But what matters is that I lead a community at the time, you know, I said of over 50,000 independent business owners whose lives would be literally changed by hearing from you were hosting an online event it would only be 30 minutes of your time. We're not trying to make money. It's free. We're donating everything that is generated, you know to XYZ charity, and I just knew I didn't shoot my shot. I'd regret it forever." And he was like I'm in. Here's my assistant's email, Baba. Baba, tell him we chatted and I gave you the thumbs. Thumbs up, I will be there.
Wow. And he followed through on his word. Yeah, that's incredible.
He's one of the ones that does, from what I've heard. He really does. If he says he's gonna do it, he does it. And I was really grateful for the opportunity. And he, I mean, his the conversation was amazing. He really delivered so much value.
Do you have the recording of that, that we could link to.
Yeah, we still have the recording and I think they're still behind the scenes footage on our vlog like we okay, we've, I think blogged the actual interview, if I remember correctly, so I'll see if I can dig that up for you and share that you believe
Oh, god, that's like a story from is that in the book? Or is that like a story from the vault from like the archive?
It's an exclusive story for you. It's exclusive for you. I should have written that one in the book, but no, no. Well, you know, epilogue, Gutsy (Natalie's Version) that'll come out in a decade.
There we go. There we go. For a reference, of course, Taylor Swift's Speak Now just came out last night, so it's still fresh on our minds. Anyways, okay. I love that story. Thank you for that cubicle to CEO exclusive. Really excited to have our listeners here. That one. All right. Third, gutsy question. The most gutsy thing I've ever done at work is... now I kind of feel like maybe that was potentially a contender for that. But is there anything else in the workplace that you're like? Oh, that one was real gutsy.
Yeah. And this one's going to surprise a lot of people perhaps because I mean, the first thing that actually came to mind was when I was a photographer, I did a lot of gutsy, we'll just say gutsy. Not to be synonymous with at times illegal and or very risky things like you know trespassing for the perfect sunset location. I'm not proud of it, but I did it. One time photographed a wedding and there were water snakes in the water, but I needed to get this shot. So I rolled up my pants and I waded in and photographed it anyway, in that same spot.
I've been stung by jellyfish before but again, like oh my god photo is worth the gutsy move, even with the jellyfish stings, and, you know, the weird offers from groomsmen to help with the jellyfish stings, which was a whole nother story for another day. I mean, you all know if you pee on a jellyfish sting, it doesn't hurt anymore. I don't know why, I don't know the science. But just like highly inappropriate conversation that they have after you know, you nearly die from one tiny little jellyfish, I'm exaggerating on the size.
I would say truly, like, just, I'm look. And I talked about this a little bit in the book too. I'm more of a ask for forgiveness, not permission kind of person. So, you know, those are examples of precisely that I am a big like, no one is going to give you permission to chase after your dream. And you have to go after the things that you are excited about that are going to move the needle and as a photographer, like that really came down to just taking those risks of like, okay, I know this is a random field and I have no idea who it belongs to. And it's on the side of the road and it's definitely illegal for us to photograph there. But what do you think and you know, like, again, like they're gonna people by the way, listen to that and want to come after me for doing it. But I did it I did.
It was always very respectful of the place or like, you know, climbing onto things to get the photo, oh, gosh, that reminds me one time I really wanted a higher angle. And I was at a reception and I couldn't figure out how to get a higher angle of the dancing and so I grabbed a chair and I stood on top of it, no problem there. But what I didn't realize at the time was that I stood in a folding chair which if you know anything about folding chairs where you put the balance of the weight distribution is very critical when standing on it because it clapped like a clam on my legs sent me tumbling into a full packed dance floor and I mean somewhat at that point that I was trying to crowd surf so there was like a little bit of help and like lifting me up which was great but would not repeat I'll leave it there all I will say is like yeah, I would do just about anything for my clients. I think a lot of business owners can relate to that.
Oh for sure. And I oh my god that's hilarious that they thought you were trying to have a crowd surfing moment I so hope that not videographer there if there was one up sure that epic. Have you ever seen those videos that are like people who turned like wipeouts into just like they were like so graceful about it that they like tripped and fell but then they like tumbled and did like this little dance move and you just felt like they did it on purpose. Like, I'm sure the people casually observing really? Oh, like what a cool photographer.
No you're giving me too much credit. You know what it would be more like it was like the TikTok memes where the fall or the bang or the trip then turns into a beat. Oh, I know what I'm talking about. We're hitting their head with like a pan and then it's like and then people are dancing in the background. Yeah, that's what it would have been a remix for an embarrassing meme. That's yeah,
That's you know Not not a bad way to make internet fame? Well, we'll try to dig up that video from the archives. No, I'm kidding, no.
I hope there's not footage somewhere I really do.
Well, this next one, I'm gonna get a little personal with you, I know you kind of already referenced a moment that, again, could fit into this category. But if you have something else that comes to mind, the most gutsy thing I've ever done in a relationship is and again, this could be like a friendship relationship, like the one you mentioned earlier, it could be a romantic relationship, parent, daughter relationship, whatever makes sense for you.
I'm gonna go with the first thing that came to mind. And it's a little heavy. So I will preface with that. And also preface by saying, you know, if you struggle with infertility, or that's been a challenge for you, I am going to bring that up. And so, you know, just like a gentle sensitivity warning, the most gutsy thing I've ever done in a relationship was have the honest conversation with my husband about the at the time, when I thought was the reality turned out with IVF, it didn't become the reality, but to have a conversation with my husband about whether or not we wanted to stay together when I knew I couldn't give him biological kids. Well, and that was shortly after, you know, a benign brain tumor diagnosis where I then went and had to kind of come to terms with the fact that, you know, infertility was closely linked with that, there was a very good chance that wasn't in the cards for me, and just knowing how much my husband, I'd always wanted to be a dad, and we've, you know, made an amazing dad, which he is an amazing dad. I didn't want to hide anything from him going into our marriage. And I was diagnosed with all of that and went through all of that, you know, six months prior to our wedding day.
And so having that conversation of saying to him, like, do you want to stay with me? Like if the future that we've been dreaming of for seven years, we've been dating for seven years at that point? If it's not something I can give you? Is it still a future that you want?
That's powerful.
I've never. I don't know that I've ever shared that. Wow, I'm like getting really choked up, who? I don't know that I've ever shared that. Like, at least not. I don't think I've ever shared that like more publicly before. But that was probably the most gutsy thing I've ever done in a relationship. And you know, my husband being my husband, anyone who knows him or has read about him when I write about him would know, you know, his answer was like, "Natalie, why would you even ask me that? Of course, of course, I that is like, that's not why I'm marrying you. We will figure everything out as we go." And that man, you know, held my hand through brain surgery and recovery and fertility treatment and month after month of it not working and you know, is now the man that holds my hand when we walk our kids around the neighborhood. So yeah, that's my like that was the first moment that came to mind is my honest answer.
Well, thank you for that. And that just intense vulnerability. That's probably not what what you were expecting. When you sat down to chat with me this morning. I have little to no like
I am sweating. Ellen, I'm like sweating. I might disrobing. I'm taking the jacket off.
I told you, it was the hot seat for a reason, right? We're turning up the heat. Actually, in all fairness, we're probably turning down the heat a little bit for a moment because Thank you. I mean, that is a really personal thing to share with with our community. And I, I just really appreciate you for, you know, living the truth of being gutsy. And like that includes having hard conversations, like you had with your husband, but obviously also like you're doing here. I'll take the heat off, you'd for just a moment we're going to do to fun, gutsy moments. The most gutsy thing I've ever eaten is...
Oh, gosh, you really want to know this one?
I really want to know.
Okay, I'm gonna give you two. One is something I didn't eat. I wasn't gutsy enough to eat but I should have eaten and the other one something that I actually thought was pretty gutsy. So oh, God, I'm gonna get in trouble for this. Should I add another sensitivity warning? If you love
let's just in case you're like more or vegetarian, you should
I just I want to really respect that and all that and just like fast forward by like a minute. Okay, so the gutsiest thing I've ever eaten was pelican. Oh, no, it wasn't it was Puffin. What am I saying? It was Puffin? Not Pelican, sorry. I ate a puffin. It. That's when I was in Iceland. Right? Don't google it. It's so cute. You will hate me. But I did. I ate it. It was at a restaurant in Iceland. It's like a delicacy there. And they're very plentiful there. So it's just like a food that people eat. Often. It's definitely the gutsiest thing I've ever eaten. I was very I was like, What am I doing now?
The gutsiest thing I didn't end up eating. But my friend Martha who we've already seen a lot of adventures and anything gutsy that I've done in my life. Martha, if you're listening, you have been the culprit here. Yeah. Yeah. And my friend Leslie Wong, who's the co founder of Burgundy Fox. We were in Iceland together and Leslie and Martha ate fermented shark
Fermented shark?
It smelled like ammonia. And I couldn't do it. I so this is me being gutsy and sharing my cowardice. I mean, it smelled like somebody opened bleach. I was like I've never. So if you've ever tried that, let us know drop a comment. But it's again, it's like an Icelandic thing like they, I mean, it's very much like a traditional way of preserving shark for the, you know, the long winter months. But that smell haunts me and my dreams. It's still it was. It's notorious and I. Yeah, it's a notorious thing. But Bravo, Martha and Leslie for taking a bite.
I am impressed. Honestly, in that moment. I think if I smelled the smell that you were describing, it wouldn't really even be about it being shark. It would just be like, I would feel like is my throat gonna like melt it. This thing touches me because, like you don't pour bleach in your mouth, obviously. So wow, I did not even know fermented shark was a thing. I'm very, very intrigued. Okay. I'm impressed Miss Natalie. All right. Okay, the most gutsy thing I've ever worn is...
Oh, you know, I'm gonna be really honest with you here. I don't know that I'm a particularly gutsy dresser. And what I mean by that is the fact that we're having this conversation and I'm wearing a sleeveless dress now that I've disrobed, because it got so hot in my hot seat. I spent most of my life always covering my arms dressing very conservatively. There's actually a story in the book about growing up going to Catholic school and you know, hitting a growth spurt, and for the first time in my life, feeling so ashamed of my own body, and struggling so much with the fact that overnight, I got boobs, and I was like, what, what is happening, and, you know, right and getting called out, like a teacher called me up and gave me a uniform infraction in front of the entire class. And I write about this in the book in the amount of shame that that created for me.
So to be really gutsy, I would say that that is actually an area I want to work more on now that I'm in my 30s. Now that I am kind of doing some of the unlearning that like it's okay for me to have my arms out in public. Like, if a bit of sideboob shows the world is not going to end. Yeah, you know, like, I'm being real real. So gustiest thing. I mean, gosh, I don't know, I would say for the Natalie's version of gutsy in 10 years when we follow in the footsteps of our beloved Taylor, I hopefully have a better answer for you. But I would say you know, just not wearing sleeves for me. Yeah, honestly, is quite a gutsy thing.
And for anyone who's like what is she talking about? You know, there's a part of the book to where I talk about the fact that your definition of being gutsy your definition of courage is unique to you and you alone that the very things that for you seem easy and you don't even give a second thought to for other people can be incredibly debilitating and require so much courage to get through. You know, my own life like I've gone bungee jumping off a mountain and I've had to drum up the same amount of courage and other seasons to get out of bed in the morning when I was struggling with postpartum depression. So in a way, like, you know, not wearing sleeves, perhaps is a gutsy move for me. In 10 years, I hope it's something more than that. Let's come up with like a fun theme party where I can, you know, dress like what is it? People go to Coachella and they barely wear clothes. Maybe we'll try something like that. Ellen will host a creative-chella, cubicle to CEO-chella. And I can I can wear something gutsy.
I love it. And I just want to reaffirm that is more than fair. And I'm so glad that you brought up that piece of how our barometer for what is gutsy is going to look different in every situation. And it really is shaped by your lived experiences, right a lot is the environment and the specific things that you had to go through as as a child that may have impacted what things feel scary or not to you, as well as your innate personality. And so thank you for being honest about that. Because I think that is more than a fair answer. All right, we've arrived at our final gutsy question. You're almost off the hot seat. And then I would love to share with our listeners, of course where they can preorder gutsy, and just a little bit more about the book. Last thing, the most gutsy thing I've ever tried is...
Oh, the most gutsy thing I've ever tried. Yeah, it's a hard one. Because I don't want to cheat and just throw out something like getting a tattoo going bungee jumping, like all the things that the world would applaud in regards to like, oh, yeah, that's a brave thing to do. You know, to be honest with you. I think the most gutsy thing I ever tried, was starting a business. It really was.
It was a moment where I had gone to college for four years I had gotten a degree from an Ivy League school, everyone expected me to follow a certain path and to go in a certain direction and I instead became a full time photographer. And it was to the dismay of a lot of people that were very vocal about how they felt about that decision. And I were I remember having to drum up a lot of courage to go do that, and to really believe and bet on myself and know that even if I did it, and I failed, and even if every one of those people could say I told you so that it was still the right choice for me. And it changed everything about the trajectory of my life. So
That is such an encouraging word for all of our listeners, who are obviously all entrepreneurs who all did that same gutsy move, a starting a business. And I mean, to your point, that's interesting hearing you say that because like you said, it did change the trajectory of your life because you're not even a photographer anymore it but all the things after that have happened. This book, the book before it, starting Rising Tide Society, being the chief evangelist for Honeybook, all these things, were only because of that first gutsy decision. So I love that. Thank you so much for being a willing participant in our hot seat today, Natalie. Where can our listeners pre order Gutsy? What date does it actually release? And why for your second book, this personal topic rather than say, maybe a business book? Because you're very well versed in that area as well?
Yes. Okay. So what I will say I'll answer your last question first, really quickly. So I decided to write a book on courage specifically through the lens of overcoming this fear of other people's opinions what other people think and the fear of judgment of criticism of allowing, you know, what someone else says about you to dictate the trajectory of your life, because I actually have found by working with business owners that we have made failure, the scapegoat, very often we tell ourselves that the reason that somebody hasn't reached a dream or a goal or achieved success is because they failed. But more often than not, I have found that it's because many of the dreams that people have never even get started never even come to fruition.
Because of these concerns, because of the fear of what other people have to say, what is someone going to think if I start the business and quit my job? What is somebody gonna say if I launch that thing? She already did it? Who am I to do it? What will people think? Will they think I'm copying her I could go on and on and on. We've all had those soundtracks, we've all experienced those narratives. Fear is not a very creative thing, it tends to repeat over and over and over again. And witnessing that like, people aren't being stopped by their failures, or never even giving themselves a chance to fail. I knew that I had to write a book that addressed the actual problem, because we love to talk about fear of failure. Very rarely do we talk about the fear of what other people think of us and gutsy is a book that gets to the heart and the root cause of so many people's struggles and why they're stuck. And so that's why I wrote it.
And also even you know, the beginning of the book I in the intro, I talked about how a friend asked me after Built To Belong came out, like how was it you published a book? Like, what is it what was it like? And I just said, terrifying. It was terrifying. And she said to me, "Well, that's the thing about you, Nat you just do it scared." And I realized in that moment that like everything I've accomplished in my life, I have done scared. The things that matter especially I have done scared and so I want other people to know that and to know that the people they look up to are doing it scared. And perhaps in looking up to themselves and setting the example for you know, their life and the people who look up to them, they have to repeat that process.
So we talked about in the book, it drops on August 15. It hit shelves, it's available everywhere, and highly recommend ordering pre ordering, if you can, Gutsy. Nataliefranke.com/gutsy You can search 'Gutsy' or 'Natalie Franke' on any of the book retailers and the audiobook I recorded myself. So if you are an audiobook fan, if that's your preferred method of consumption, if you're listening to this, it might be definitely check out the audiobook available both on Audible and on libro FM. If you're not familiar, by the way with libro FM. It supports independent bookstores. So you can actually select your local independent bookstore when that you want to support and go ahead and listen to it just like you would on any other audiobook platform. So definitely check it out.
I love that so much in that perspective is one that I wish every single person listening to this would permanently cement in their hearts. And that is that failure is not the thing to fear, its inaction. That's the true trap, right, preventing you from everything you want in life. And I myself I got I was very lucky to get an early digital copy of gutsy and so I'm so so excited to dive in, but more excited to bring back the head gear and for me, yeah,
I want to a gutsy repeat of the headlamp. Yeah, I do. I'm gonna be really sad if... save that one for launch, share that one with me on launch day. I'm gonna need it.
Fair! Yes, I love it. I will. And like Natalie said, Make sure if you can to try to support an independent bookstore in your local area to buy this book if they don't have it, request it! That's how they know what they need to put on their shelves. So ask for that see to be on your local bookshelves. And we're also doing a really fun giveaway with Natalie. So if you Want to win a free copy of Gutsy, a signed copy may I add whatever the link is gonna be just it'll be in the show notes, make sure you check it out. Thank you so much Natalie as always for being here we love you and just celebrating you and and this book coming out.
Ellen you're the best, thank you for having me.
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