What Matters Right Now: Investing in Digital - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE, Becky Endicott, CFRE and Dana Snyder

11:32PM Feb 2, 2022

Speakers:

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Dana Snyder

Keywords:

people

organization

donors

digital

investing

dana

nonprofits

platforms

nonprofit

content

engagement

conversation

thought

frictionless

linkedin

ads

instagram

virtuous

traffic

year

Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky.

And this is the we are for good podcast.

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So let's get started. Hey, Becky,

Happy Friday, everybody. Glad you're here. Thanks for sticking around.

I know like it's so good to hang out on Fridays, because we have, we've dedicated the first few Fridays of this year to dive into these topics that let's be honest, they're kind of our favorite topics, but truly things that we just feel like, can transform and are transforming our industry just really in the best of ways. And so today, we're unpacking the trend known as investing in digital. And we just want to really equip you and make you feel empowered that this is a place to really invest budget and time and thought power into really powering up this part of your business. And for

anybody who's ever listened to the podcast, you are surprised not surprised that we added this one in because we are such proponents of leaning into what is really feels like a digital tidal wave that's hitting our industry right now. And I can think of so many times in my Nonprofit Careers, specifically, in the last 10 years where investing in digital has been met with a lot of resistance from people at the top people who are kind of going through and assessing your budget. And we're saying this is no longer icing on the cake. This is just as essential to your business operations as having a database. As in having a campaign this has got to be a part of your strategy. And we're gonna dive into that wholly today with an incredible guest.

Yeah, I mean, one of our favorite guests on digital is coming in today. But let's do a little bit of tone setting. This is some things that we feel like are just core to laying the groundwork of why we think investing in digital is really where you need to spend some effort this year. And it really starts with this viewpoint, that your website and your social media accounts are your storefronts. So if you really think about how are you preparing those places to be incredibly welcoming, incredibly inviting and engaging for the people that are visiting your site? It's going to transform everything that follows. And what that means functionally is is it easy to use? Is it compelling and up to date? And does it look great on mobile? I mean, we just had Maria Brian on the podcast, who is affirming more than 50% of web traffic is happening on mobile kind of shocks me that it's not even higher than that, right? So once you're in the right headspace, that the website is really the central hub, your strategy from there just spokes out because all traffic is coming back there you're trying to convert to really get that email address, hopefully a donation. And that's a good starting place for this entire conversation.

I think the second point that we'd really like to make here is that attention is the new scarcity online. So what does that mean to you? I think that that means we need to put more intentionality into the content that we're sharing online. We can't just think about quantity and just pushing whatever out into the universe. We've got to be really intentional with content planning. I think, Lynne Westar always brings up a great point in terms of what is you're asked to think ratio? What is your engagement look like? How are you pulling people in and storytelling? Go back to Maria Brian's episode Love that you brought that up, she talks a lot about how to content plan. So think about how you can engage in this new era where it's hard to get somebody's attention. And we need to create some scroll, stopping content.

With that comes our next point that everything should really be grounded in a goal, you know, what is your strategy leading toward? And we're going to tell you, if you're online, it's some kind of call to action. So if you're pushing people to your store, friends, what are you asking him to do? Is there an obvious natural next step that your donor or prospective donor can take. And so really grounding our strategy, connecting it to a call to action is going to help transform, however you're showing up online. And let me just transition into the next one. Are you making investment into trying stuff and you know, we love to just riff on trying stuff, but digital is the sandbox for this, you know, it's not going to, you know, completely throw off your entire course, by running a campaign for a few days and seeing what's working and what's not. The name of the game is trying and optimizing. And so you have to view it from that perspective. So you can keep honing and keep getting more engagement and figuring out what works and what resonates and what doesn't, you know, and you can kick that to the curb.

And of course, that's going to expand creativity. It's going to expand community, it's going to get engagement we want we don't want to just be pushing our messages out. We want to provide avenues by which people can respond. We want to ask questions. We want to know what connects with them. We want to know why they're connected to our organization. So I would just hitch my wagon to what you just said, John, which is such a great point about where are you investing and asking? Are you building community in that space? Are you pushing them to your social channels? Are you pushing them back to your email list? You can kind of see back to the hub and spoke concept. If, if your hub is your website, how are you pushing to other areas? And I would just challenge How are you showing up authentically, I think that showing up in social media, even an email provides such an avenue for you to be able to express the values that are important to you. It expresses who your beneficiaries are, what your mission does. I love seeing the nuance and staff members, people want to get to know you as human beings. They don't want to just know your the ABC Foundation. They want to know who's working there. Why are you working there? Why is this important to you bring that humanity and it will really up your digital game.

I agree. And so all of these ideas, you know, some of these have been core to Becky and my philosophy for years. But I'll say some of them are getting shaped all the time. You know, we're getting challenged with great conversations. And so we want to throw a few case studies in episodes that you may want to go into deeper listening before we really bring in our expert guest today. But a couple I would challenge you on. One is Cameron Bartlett. He is this brilliant guy who works in SEO and paid ads, and has worked with some of the biggest organizations around the country, including International Justice Mission, he really challenged us that if you're going to spend money on some kind of creative asset, go get a video, it could be a minute or it could be a couple minutes, something that tells a story. And I'm going to challenge you to go listen to episode because he talks about how you can use that video to power an entire house entire social ads strategy. Because as you start to link these things together, as you're making an investment in digital, you need to have some kind of really great content that stops people in their tracks and is going to drive traffic back to your site and to engage to whatever that call to action is. So just the idea and the conversation around investing in really incredible assets that drive action is a good starting place. And it will serve you in a lot of different places besides just the ad. I mean, you can use it at events and you can use it in your newsletter in all different sorts of places at the same time.

And I love this concept of video, I want to give one more case study before we bring in our amazing guests. But the international anti poaching foundation, I love them so much. I'm a monthly donor to this nonprofit organization. But they stood up an incredible 14 minute video that was almost documentary style telling not only their founder story, but the why of why their mission exists. And I will say that when you have James Cameron directing it and National Geographic producing it, you do have a leg up on most of us who can afford to invest in that sort of creative however, I don't think the production quality would have mattered nearly as much as the way that they told their story. And they were able to share that story that juxtapose it with a TED talk, they pushed it out on all their social channels and built a massive global community around the Zimbabwe and organization that is doing so much to empower women to protect our biodiversity and our animals. So love those examples. Cameron Bartlett is such a great soothsayer in this. So go check those out. But we would be remiss if we did not say that the Queen of digital is actually in the house today,

as we look around, like who is leading really well in this space, who's investing in digital painting the path for where to go.

And it's so ironic that we're having this conversation on the one year anniversary of meeting, the digital marketing genius. That is Dana Snyder with positive equation. She could be one of the most named dropped individuals on our podcast, because what she is doing to absolutely revolutionize how nonprofits and social impact organizations are showing up in a digital world growing community in a way that is so heartfelt, authentic and real. And you know why she can do it, because she is all of those things, too. So get in our house, Dana Snyder, teach us all of the things and bring us into 2022. With digital

era to good Becky you can just riff like that. You're just I can

always riff on people.

I love isms real.

So I'm so happy to be back because you guys are some of my favorite people. And I will say all the things are so kind, but in total 100% transparency, and anybody who works in digital, you probably feel this way. We're just all literally figuring it out together. That's it for figuring it out. I just might read more on it. And some people but it's honestly it. It's literally the world of tech and digital is changing so fast and faster than it ever has before. So I think I just, I just love it. I love this space. It's where I geek out and have fun and so I hope that some of my geekiness can make sense and bring some thoughtful tactical things to the nonprofit industry.

Well, when you've managed the social media outlets for like American Idol, I mean, hung out, you know, with Taraji P. Henson, running your Facebook Lives, you learn some things. So I appreciate that you give all of our nonprofits and ability to Excel because you don't need to know everything. You don't need to be on all the platforms, Dana's giving you permission to say that even she doesn't know all the things. So we want to dive in to this trend. And I mean, of course, we could not talk about what's happening in digital without saying that we have got to be leaned into this moment. And so we just really would love your thoughts about the moment that we're setting and kind of set the scene for us for what you're seeing on your end where the opportunities lie.

Here's my take about kind of what's happening in the world that we're living in right now is, consumers are donors. And donors are consumers. I know we've talked about this together. And the for profit world is usually leading us into advancements that consumers then become used to. Right. So right now, since things are moving so quickly, what I believe is nonprofits cannot afford to move slow anymore. And I just had this conversation a couple of days ago with one of my platforms that I love fundraise up, and I asked them as like, what's the biggest resistance that you get? Because to me, there's so many brilliant platforms, tech platforms in the space right now. But they're still this like, nonprofits are like, Oh, I'm not sure. And they said politics, politics, interesting in the organizations are causing these delays in innovation. Simple things. Like we know, we need an updated online donation form, but you've had this one for 10 years. And Joe or Sally, Bob really is tied to it and loves it. And just because they love it, we don't want to get them upset. And I was like, that's the biggest thing. And they're like, Yeah, and I was like that the Nana's. And so I mean, to be honest, I don't know if those organizations that continue with that type of mindset will be around in the next 2010 to 20 years even. Alright, this is where I'm gonna geek out slightly, which will kind of lean into our conversation today. We started with web 1.0. Web 1.0 was when we just entered data and information was pushed to us, right, there was no back and forth conversation. There was no aim if people remember ame from back in the day, and then it transferred to web 2.0, which is what we're currently still living in. And that was really the entrance of social media and being able to have to a communication. And then now we're on the verge of entering web 3.0. So when I talk about organizations being afraid to change an online donation platform, if they're not secure about where they are right now, and we are getting ready to move past where we are right now, we've got to change some things. And I know you guys are wonderful about talking about this so much with taking more of an entrepreneurial approach to things and taking some more risks, because to back it up to the people we care about, which is our supporters and our donors. millennials aren't young, really anymore young with emphasis on they're in their 40s.

Sorry, John, you're not young.

Too, right. I think there's this old like, we picture Millennials as still being like the teens, and they're not anymore. So if we are not advancing with the times as which we, as consumers are living and breathing, and we're experiencing all these things with these brands, and nonprofits aren't following in that, then there's just, I think there's just going to be this natural drop off that happens.

Yeah, I mean, okay, I love this, because we really pinned out that investing in digital is this trend that we want to really perpetuate this year? I think it even starts at the education like investing in the learning and growth that you've already talked about, that you do on a daily basis that's required if you want to stay relevant, but also just are you carving out money in your budget to innovate, and what's cool is so many things don't even cost money. And that's what's fascinating. I think for the three of us sitting around to move to something like a fundraise up is not a barrier to the organization. I mean, you know, like it's not a huge expense. So there really is a lot of mindset work that has to happen. And curiosity of understanding who are you trying to reach? What are their expectations for how you give and how accessible and how easy it should be? And how do we start with that?

I just think all of it is so fascinating, and if it illuminates anything, it's like the world is your oyster if you're willing to take the risk to try some things. And so I would almost even think of it as like an equation, it's like creativity, you know, plus innovation is gonna equal engagement. And that is what fundraisers need to be chasing right now. And if that's the motivator that your higher ups need, because it will ultimately bring in funding it, but it's not just gonna bring funding. And that's what I feel like you've taught us, Dana is, this is not just about the bottom line. This is about growing digital community. This is about growing believers. This is about getting what we call rabid fans into your mission and meeting them in the spaces where they are. And so I would love for you to just talk about where would somebody start with like their online donor experience?

Great question. Honestly, right now, it should be totally frictionless. So I think that starts with taking a review of your tools and see ask if they're serving you or not. And sometimes we get so in the weeds in our organizations that small things are missed. So questions that I like to ask, starting with your website, and I will preface website by saying, Look at everything on mobile, ask yourself, if I'm a first time person visiting a website, can I easily find your mission? Can I easily locate the Donate experience? Is it on more than one page? Do you know what your top most visited pages are? I just did an audit for an organization in December. And I was looking at their Google Analytics. And I noticed that about 65% of their traffic came from mobile versus desktop. But their desktop had like 81% of all their donations. And I was like, well, that's strange. And so then I went to their mobile experience. And I could not it was like three clicks before I got to the donate button. I was like, this is a multi million dollar organization I was like that is six figures plus of potential funds that are not converting just because that person cannot find where to give. And then they're probably just leaving. So really make sure that you have a frictionless donation experience on mobile second to donations, his emails, no one and I'm sorry for everybody out there. No one wants to join your newsletter. Every email Forum says, join our email newsletter for updates on data. No, you want that to be a value exchange. So there's so many amazing things that you can offer to somebody in exchange for an email, and then they naturally get onto your newsletter. But that's not what you are asking them for in order to get their email from the beginning. So the online donor experience starts with frictionless donation, frictionless value exchange email, and then I think you just need to also ask yourself with your donation platform, am I providing the options that people want to give stock, crypto, Venmo, right, whatever that happens to be. And lastly, on that, I will say this has been a big conversation because I do a lot of work in social advertising. You cannot track someone when they are donating on a third party site, meaning they are going to a URL that is not yours. This is very common. Network for Good classy, fundraise. There are so many platforms pledge, even, they have these third party sites, but they also have even gift butter. They also have widgets you can put on your site. So you can still use all of these amazing tools. You just have to use them in the right ways that you are getting all the domain data to be able to read track them.

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Hey, friends, after meeting some of the most visionary leaders and world changers in the nonprofit sector today, we realize they all have one thing in common. They invest in themselves and their teams so they can stay relevant to what's working now to succeed and scale their missions. You know us we believe education is for all and that's when we created we're for good pro Pro is reimagining nonprofit professional development, giving you access to incredible live coaching events with some of the best thought leaders like Shanna Palmer and Lynn Wester and more. Imagine being able to work through your challenges in real time. That's the power of Pro. Every week we host a new workshop giving you the playbook and tools to take immediate action, build your confidence and grow your impact. Be the Pro and get started today with a 14 day free trial head over to we're for good pro.com/free. Okay, let's get back to this amazing conversation. You know, it helps with all aspects of being able to be found on search engines, you want the traffic there, and just the trust factor. If somebody sees that that changes, they may get concerned they may not, you know, understand. And it just makes it frictionless. So I like that as kind of a guide. Okay, you kind of you teed this up, because something we love about you, Dana, is that you really challenge our sector to lean into social advertising, like advertising is not a scary word for nonprofits, even though we're all, you know, not baked into a lot of people's budgets, can you help us kind of break down that mindset barrier and why we need to invest in actual advertising on social?

Yeah, so the top thing is share a voice, we want to have ownership online. And sadly, organic usually doesn't get us there with how much noise there is. So when you have social ads, they provide you the opportunity to increase your share of voice and stay top of mind with your supporters. And actually going to have a great hack for this. And I just shared it with my digital donors on demand group membership yesterday, I think fear based risk mentality that we have to spend a lot of money on ads in order to see success. And that's not true. So there is an always on approach that I teach, that's $5 a day. And all it is is it's a reach campaign, and you take existing posts that you already have, ideally, that showcase your credibility as an organization. So it could be again, if you've been mentioned in a press article, if you've been on a podcast, if a thought leader or your your founder has been mentioned somewhere, pull that article posted on your feed. So credible pieces like that, or videos that showcase who you are statistics showcasing the impact that you've had. So you have all these pieces of content that you have already organically placed for free on either Facebook or Instagram for the ad, all you do is for each of those ads gets $1 spent per day. So you're taking those existing posts, we are not boosting, when you're boosting, there's only a couple of places that those posts can go when you're running an ad, there's eight more placements technically between Facebook and Instagram, both that it can run, there's also just way more control into your audience targeting which is the big one. So step one for this always on your on a reach campaign. Step two is your audience creation, and you want a warm audience. So you're going to retarget people who already know you. So you're gonna put in your email list, you're going to retarget people who've engaged with you on Facebook and Instagram. And you are going to run these five pieces of content that already exist to them, just so they keep seeing you pop up in their feeds,

I need to break this down for the nonprofit and and maybe it's because it's my age, and I'm failing my Gen X graininess and this, but guys, let's not be intimidated by this, this is what we do every day, we cultivate leads, we cultivate our donors and our prospects all the time. This is exactly what you need to do to do it digitally. And it feels so much like the 1960s set it and forget it like it goes on in the background without only true, and, and how wonderful it can still be human, it can still be entirely authentic. If you have the great piece of content, or you're already posting it. This is just such an easy way. And I love that you say it's $1 because cost becomes a non issue at that point. But it's already driving traffic. Okay. You're just so smart, Dana. I can't help but have this conversation and not just think about how do we talk about search engine optimization. So for everybody out there who's like, wanting to take their SEO to the next level? Like how would you lead them through that? And when what are some quick tips in you know, in the same vein that you would offer?

Yeah, so a lot of the things that I'm talking about are honestly learned experiences from my own personal running of a business. And it's all relevant. So with SEO, I think we it's another daunting term that seems complicated, and it's not. So we want to be found on Google. Why? Because when we search on Google we are we have an intent. When you think about social media, Instagram, Facebook, we're normally just scrolling and if we See something really cool, we're gonna, we're gonna click on and we might engage, but on Google and on YouTube and who owns YouTube, Google? We are intently searching how to find blink, how to do blink, show me where the nearest Blink is, right? So this is where thinking about what do you want to be known for every single nonprofit, are thought leaders, and they are experts in their cause areas. So what I recommend with SEO is absolutely 100%. Have a blog on your website. First and foremost, great tip, and invest in a copywriter that specifically knows how to write SEO, optimize blogs, so that you will rise to the top of page one, when people are searching for specific things relative to the work that you do.

Yeah, why this matters is you know, I was having a conversation with our mutual friend Cameron Bartlett this week. And, you know, just talking about, let's say you care about human trafficking, your audience may be trying to research that topic. Yes, you're consistently blogging about that. And you're the authority of all this great information and stories, you are going to get that traffic when someone Google's that and I actually did this while I was on the phone with him to kudos to his work with Exodus road. You know, I Googled human trafficking. They were the second hit, I clicked to their blog post, and they had embedded a giving a monthly giving option, right to the right of that bug, yes, 100. Because I was seeking that out. Not only did I learn something, but at Google told me this is the authority and I'm ready to like contribute as a result of that. So really cool, how it all syncs up. And it's a strategy that kind of flies under the radar for most nonprofits. But it's a huge opportunity as a thought leader, as we kind of position people to feel more Empower of these areas that they are experts at, you know, and lean into that expertise.

And I got to piggyback on Exodus row who is doing such a great job with multi channel and it was a three page testimonial letter story that they did at year end about someone in their community, and I watched them syndicate this, I got it in the mail, because I've made a gift to them. And they did such great syndication. And so it doesn't just have to be all digital all the time, I think is my point here. And I think the other thing that I would lift is that in what Cameron does so well, and I think what you do so well is video slabs, in these situations, it has such traction. And if you're not thinking about video as a really definable medium for you, I think that that should be something that would be worthy of your investment. And we have to think about our donors in this way. Where are they? How is our content lifting? And so and I would love for you to riff on any of that, Dana? Yeah. And

that's such a good point. So this is something that I mean, just take learnings from what I've done in my business. So I was kind of floating around on a bunch of different platforms last year. And then I really looked at my Google Analytics. I think this always just kind of goes back to Google Analytics at the end of the day. And I looked at on Google Analytics, there's a section called acquisition. And you can tell where are your where's your traffic coming from? Where's your audience coming from? And although I had Facebook was number one, that I run ads from Facebook, I looked at the bounce rate of when people were leaving. And I looked at time spent on my website, and I did not have the highest amount of traffic with YouTube and LinkedIn. But man did those people spend way longer time? So those are qualified donors, qualified leads. So therefore, this year, I said, I don't have an Instagram strategy this year, y'all. I have zero, I randomly post on Instagram. I have spent my time now on fleshing out a YouTube strategy. Because, again, who owns YouTube, Google, your YouTube videos, if you search for things, they show up in Google, they rank. So you might not have a blog. If you pick YouTube, it'll show up. So I focus on LinkedIn, and YouTube. And then my blog kind of coincides with that. I've picked my primary and a secondary platform. And that's it. Well, I

mean, this brings us back to really what this trend is all about is this investment idea. And obviously, there's platform aspects to it. But there's also the people, you know, and you're alluding to kind of your greater contracted team. What does it look like for nonprofits? How do they know when you're ready to add a staff member? Versus when you just should find a contractor to help you get something off the ground?

Yeah, I think it depends on what your in house team looks like. What is bandwidth looking like? I think that show oftentimes gets like looped into columns or looped into something and it's Honestly, like, it just cannot be that way anymore. If it's something where you just don't have the time, then I would say to start with a consultant, and then maybe it's a consultant that comes full time at some point, or they can be someone that can teach someone Jr, these tricks to really focus on X certain platforms, and then they feel empowered, and they feel confident in what they're doing. So I would say just depends upon a, I think every organization should have somebody who understands digital as a standalone role. I think it's something that needs to be built into budgets and planned for.

Okay, let's transition into some quick tips. Dana, walk us through some really kind of immediate action on all the best platforms right now. Let's start with Instagram,

Instagram, all right, iG. Okay, the new news feed, I think it's gonna be great because it will have your standard feed, which I am going to assume is now going to have more ads and more recommendations and suggestions for you about who to follow. So it will be like your standard, then you're going to have your favorites. So I can mark, we are for good as a favorite and make sure that I see their content. And then you can have your followers. So there will be standard favorites and followers, which I think is great, because sometimes your followers content gets lost, and a bunch of stuff. So those would be like my two kind of Instagram tips. And something that I don't really talk a lot about, but I'm fascinated by because it's taken over such a tremendous share in the social spaces tick tock. So something that's fascinating about tick tock is their algorithm. And how their algorithm works is they track which videos a user watches all the way through. super fascinating. So they ensure that all of the content on someone's feed is really curated towards their interests. And that's how they've had this kind of like crazy boost and engagement. The average user spends 52 minutes on the app every day users with under 1000 followers, they have an average engagement rate. Can you guys just guess

15%? I

was like 20% 51%. That's amazing. So they have the highest engagement rate for social media, per post period. Amen. I think overall, we just have to have fun and play with the channels and not put so much weight on ourselves to get it right the first time. Be more curious, have fun, try new things, and not make it too heavy.

I agree. You know, I think there needs to be a lot of that in and you are innovating on LinkedIn, I think this is really relevant for now. So I want to give this kind of as our last on the Quick Tips. What do you Yeah, so

LinkedIn, I recently started, you can do a LinkedIn newsletter, you can just repurpose content that you're using in your emails, or it can be something from your blogs. And when you publish it, it sends a message to all of your connections and followers. In a day, I had 400 or 500 people subscribed to my LinkedIn newsletter. So it's a brilliant, simple way to repurpose your content and just have a thoughtful content strategy on LinkedIn.

Man, we think LinkedIn is just a playground for nonprofits really, because it does thread this professional life. But people are wanting to showcase the organizations that matter to them in the way they're involved. And it's just really natural, organic, way to share thought leadership and all those things like so if you're not there, like, this is your time, like go and start a newsletter.

And I would even add, it'll be great if you're there as an individual, but make sure your organization is there and that your organization has a LinkedIn account. I can't tell you how many times I've gone in to talk about an organization and I've tried to tag them, and they don't exist. And I'm thinking, oh, I want to pull them into this conversation. And they don't even know that we're having it. Because they're not on LinkedIn. There are people all over the world that care about the things that you're fighting for. So find that find ways to engage, go follow Dana. She does such a beautiful job on all of her social channels. Things look so great. If you want to see an expression of joy and whimsy and fun that she's talking about Go Go look at Dana and go follow some of these thought leaders. There's a lot of great nonprofits who are doing it in such a way that's that's wonderful and whimsical and it is connecting in really extraordinary ways. So okay, Dana, we could talk to you about digital clearly forever. But you know how this goes in debt with one epic one good thing what's going to be your one good thing on why people should invest in digital,

a hire someone in some capacity, and b i would say I'm going to go back to something we talked about at the very beginning, review your online donation experience. Have a stranger have somebody who doesn't know your organization, watch them, go through it and see where you are To make it a more frictionless experience,

such brilliant stuff. Okay, Dana, you're so good at sharing your wisdom, convening people, will you kind of share? Where can people connect with you. And I know you have an upcoming retreat too. So we want to plug that.

Yeah, I'm super excited. So and I think this is just a great, this is like a personal tangent, if people know in this space that I went through a miscarriage in December. And that kind of rocked the end of my year, and I normally was going to have a six month mastermind. And I was like, I'm not feeling the mastermind. And I did not feel prepared to do something for six months. And so it was like what feels good to me, and would be of service to the space. And I decided to transform it into a two day nonprofit marketing retreat in Atlanta. So I'm bringing in some really cool people fundraise is partnering with me on this. I love them dearly. They're providing five $500 scholarships. Yeah, which is incredible. So it's gonna be in person, we're gonna have so much fun, it's gonna be super intimate, small group, it's right before the p2p forum, where I'm speaking with Movember and dress number, which is really awesome. But yeah, it's just, we're literally gonna put together your marketing plan for 2022. And we're going to talk about literally going through your website and doing some of this auditing work with you. And I think what I'm most excited about is, I get to teach a lot, but then I don't get to work on it with you. So there's going to be a lot of active working time over this two day period, so that they walk away with something tangible. And so yes, that retreats coming up February 26, and 27th. And then outside of that can just find me on all things positive equation.

Okay, please go check that out. If you're someone who's feeling overwhelmed by this conversation, or you have your C suite, looking at you saying, this is the year we need to invest in digital and you don't know where to start, please check out that retreat, we could not tell you the amount of amazing people who are lined up to come speak at it. And how great to have Dana come in and hold your hand and walk you through this. And the other thing is, I just want to thank you for sharing so vulnerably about your miscarriage story. If anybody's followed Dana, one, we love you. And Daniel, we are always thinking about you guys, I want to thank you for your vulnerability because you've brought so much awareness to your particular situation. And guys, this is such a good example of best laid plans, you know, sometimes don't work out and that's okay. Take care of yourself. Do the thing that brings you joy and love in this world. And take our friend Dana's advice and pivot, do something different, and run at something that really gives you meaning. So, thanks for coming into our house and making it better as you always do. Thanks for having me.

Always so fun to hang out. Yeah. Thanks for joining us. Today's episode was brought to you by our good friends at auth zero. Without zero your nonprofit can do more with a login box. Greet prospects and rabid fans of your mission with authenticity simply make it easier for your team to manage data. There's so much about zero login experience can do. Is it auth zero.org For more info.

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thanks friends.