Like, I was always a kid that loved those story books, like the Choose Your Own Adventure kind of story books. That's what I think people really like about D and D that's what I really like about DND, at least, because you do really get to just choose your own adventure even more freely than those books allowed you to do. It's so different in that you get to craft your own experience and see both the good and ugly of that
what used to be considered only nerd culture is now popular culture. Science Fiction, Fantasy and other genres have taken over Hollywood, television, the Internet and in many cases, the creators of these uses of popular culture cite playing Dungeons and Dragons as key to their ability to tell the stories that have turned into multi million dollar businesses. This is random acts of knowledge presented by Heartland Community College. I'm your host, Steve fast. Today we're going to talk about the game that was a spark for so many elements of popular culture today, Dungeons and Dragons, and let you know how you can get involved in playing what has become the most popular role playing experience in the world.
My name is Jesse berkelbot. I've been at Heartland for just over two years now. In that two year span, I've worked at the testing center the whole time.
Tell me a little bit about what they do at the testing center at Heartland Community College
in my current role, what I do, for the most part, is kind of like professional certification testing through a third party vendor called Pearson Vue. They're a huge education company. They do a lot of textbooks and online resources, things like that too, but also certification, you know, like GED, high school equivalency, a lot of tech certification, stuff like that. So I'm kind of the site manager for Pearson VUE and our Pearson VUE testing so I handle all that. And then I also work really heavily with our course testing students and with our faculty. So all of their testing requests come through me. I kind of process those make sure we've got everything that students and faculty need and what we need for the testing center, and then we administer those for 1000s of course testers every semester. So that's kind of the bulk of my job at the moment.
And what will you be doing with this continuing education class
this summer will be my first time teaching with continuing education. I'm super excited to get started. I'm going to be teaching intro to Dungeons and Dragons to a couple different age groups. So first for the kind of summer kids Academy, I'm doing a course for six through eight students, and then nine through 12, and then a little bit later in the summer, later in July, I'll do three different sessions, kind of two hours and three consecutive weeks for adults. So with that one, I'll be able to get a little bit more in depth, but the kids sessions are three hours each, so it'll be a little bit more kind of rapid fire going through the basics. But the purpose of the course is just to kind of get students and feeling comfortable with Dungeons and Dragons, you know, expose them to it, if they haven't had any experience with it before, and then just go through it, kind of start to finish, so that they leave ready to go join a D and D group and play their first adventure.
How long have you been playing Dungeons and Dragons? Yeah,
so let's see. I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons since I met my husband, so about four years now. He is a huge nerd, so he turned me on to D and D, and I kind of latched onto it very quickly. So I started as a player in a campaign, and that lasted for a couple months, and then I decided, okay, like, I've got a good handle on this. I want to run the game now. I've always been kind of a storyteller. I really like creative writing. In high school, I would just write all the time, same through college, and that's one of the things I really like about DND, especially when you are running the game, is it's collaborative storytelling. So that's kind of what pulled me into actually running it then for my friends. So I started my first campaign about three years ago. Ran that for six to eight months, I think, somewhere in there. And then that kind of fizzled out on its own, as campaigns often do. And then I started running a different campaign for that same group. And we now have kind of a rotating system where we all sort of take turns running the game. That way everybody gets to be a player as well. So I both run and play in DND right now with my my friend group.
So if you run the game, you're the Dungeon Master, right? Yes, and so is a game basically just as good as the Dungeon Master. I would
say it's as good as the Dungeon Master and the players can work together it because it is collaborative storytelling, right? So it's it's easy to fall into this kind of common trope where the Dungeon Master is really doing all of the work and the players are just kind of there. In my opinion, that's not a good game. If you have fun in that game. No judgment. If that works for your group, fabulous for my group, we like to work together a lot. So we are frequently collaborating between dungeon master and player, even in session, you know, we'll have like, a little break out and kind of talk things through, but we frequently plan things together, kind of, you know, craft the story together, things like that, and that's how we. Really like to play, because then it feels, I guess, just more inclusive and more collaborative with the whole group.
Imagine that I'm somebody that doesn't know anything about Dungeons and Dragons. I've heard the term, but I have no familiarity with it at all, which I'm guessing most of the people that are coming into class have some familiarity, or at least interest. But how would you explain the game to somebody that doesn't really know what it is. Yeah,
DND is a game of make believe that you play with friends, co workers, really anyone. If you are a player, you will create your own character. So for example, say you want to play Legolas from Lord of the Rings, you might create yourself a elf Ranger that is really proficient with bows. And then you'll kind of determine the things that you want your character to be good and bad at. It's very important to make well rounded characters. You should have things you're good at. You should have things that you're terrible at that makes the game interesting. And then the Dungeon Master is going to create a world or pull on. There's a lot of material that's already published for dungeon masters to just hop right into many people like to create kind of their own world and do it that way. But the Dungeon Master will do that. They will put your character and the characters of the other party members in a situation, and then just kind of let you do what you want to do. You know, it's very common for players to meet in a tavern, and then they get to know each other, and then there will be some sort of plot hook, you know, maybe somebody runs into the tavern with a big cut on their arm and they need help right away. Something like that will happen, and that'll kind of spur your group to action, and then it just snowballs from there, and suddenly have the six month long adventure with your friends.
So where do the rules come into play when you are creating your character, and, you know, putting your character into action. So let's just say, I want to create a character that is the strongest man in the world and can defeat any monster, etc. Well, that wouldn't be a very good game, because you just win every time. So there must be some sort of parameters on the rules what you can and can't do. How does that come into play when you're creating a character?
Yeah, so when you're doing character creation, you have six different attribute scores and a set number of points you can allocate to each. So the current attribute scores are Strength, Dexterity, Constitution. Those are your physical stats. And then you have wisdom, intelligence and charisma. Those are the mental stats. You know, with your example of like the strongest person in the world, you would probably put a lot of points into strength and maybe fewer points into dexterity. You know, they're very strong, maybe not so agile. And then you because there's only a certain number of points that you can put total on a certain character, then if you say, put 17 points into strength, that's going to mean that you have fewer points to put into dexterity, your mental stats, et cetera. So the example you described is kind of similar to a barbarian build. That's one of the classes in D and D, those characters typically tend to be very heavy on their physical stats, high strength, high constitution. So they can be, you know, this big beefy tank kind of character, and then they might not be so adept when they get into, say, like a so social situation, where they have to navigate a political landscape, or talk to nobility, things like that. And when you are in those situations as the player, you're going to be making some skill checks, so you will be rolling a 20 sided die that kind of simulates randomness in the situation. And so if you score high on that die, then you're going to succeed. If you score low, you may not succeed, and there may be consequences to that. But then, depending on your attribute scores, you'll have a bonus that you add to that die roll. So say, if you're rolling a check to break down a wall, your very strong character might have a plus five bonus, because they're very good at strength. If you are trying to persuade someone to, you know, let you into the nobles Castle, you might have a negative, like a penalty to that role, because you're not very good at charisma. So that's kind of where it comes to play. When you transition from character creation to actual gameplay,
at least as far as I can remember, I'm sure that there were these types of games before Dungeons and Dragons came on the scene, which I believe it was like in the 70s that Dungeons and Dragons first emerged. This was something that probably at the time, it takes that extra step, you get a monopoly game, and there's a set of rules there, and some similarities. There's dice that that determine, you know, actions, but this was something that requires so much more from the players themselves. What is it about this role playing game element, and dungeons and dragons in particular, with this set of of kind of world building, that there's certain things that you're going for. You're not You're probably not going to have tanks or airplanes in a Dungeons and Dragons game. What is it about that that really makes it unique?
I think there are a great many things that really make the game unique, and not just Dungeons and Dragons. There's a whole host of other ttrpgs, tabletop role playing games out there, too. So I think one thing that really grabs both players and Dungeon Masters is because there is kind of a high investment at the front then that makes you invested as you go through right? You know, in the back of your mind, you might be thinking about how much time you've put into this, and it makes you care about it makes you want to keep playing, whereas, you know, like with a game of Monopoly. You kind of just sit down at maybe Thanksgiving, after you've eaten a big meal, you play around in Monopoly, and then you're done. But this is a very much more engaging and kind of invested experience, and because it's something that you share so vulnerably with other people, too, I think that kind of ties everyone in, and you share a common goal, and you know, you all kind of want to work towards that, but I think it's just also so unique in that it gives people an escape that they don't find elsewhere, because it's it's similar to reading, but different from reading, and that you're just seeing someone else's experience, experience with D and D, you're doing your own experience. You have control over that you're making your own choices, you're reaping the consequences of your own choices, and moving forward, it's, I mean, kind of same with like watching a TV show or something. It's, it's so different in that you get to craft your own experience and see both the good and ugly of that. So I think that, at least for me, is what makes it so unique, is I like, I was always a kid that loved those story books where you could make your like, the Choose Your Own Adventure kind of story books. That's what I think people really like about DND. That's what I really like about DND, at least, because you do really get to just choose your own adventure even more freely than those books allowed you to do, and it can be so customizable to you, like you mentioned. You know, you probably don't have, like, tanks and airships and that kind of thing. There are games that are meant to do that. My group actually played in a game. It's called Lancer, where it's all about, like, piloting high tech mechs and things like that. If you really like to get into sort of, like religion and Pantheon aspects, there's a kind of a spin off of DND called God bound, where you play as like demigods. My group is actually playing in that one right now. My friend is running that for us, and it's really, really cool. So there's, there's so many different options out there too. So if the kind of standard like fantasy landscape isn't really what you're interested in, there are so many options, so many different systems for you to play in, too. So there's, there's really a key for every lock. When it comes to tabletop RPGs,
you know, you talk about that, choose your own adventure element to it. And then I think that video gaming, gaming in that way, is so much bigger than, well, definitely bigger than when the wind DND first really became popular in the 80s. But for the younger people that you'll be teaching in this class? How is it different? And what does this kind of actually almost old timey idea of some people sitting around a table with some dice and and creating a story? How is that different? And what does it offer to people that maybe have only really been big into video games, because there are those you know, first person video games with very advanced plots, and you have to solve puzzles and move forward to get to the next scene and all of that.
Yeah, I think one of the huge benefits is just that it disconnects you from technology for a little bit. You know, you can kind of take a step back in time a bit, and you're just sitting around a table with your friends. There are, of course, you know, technological resources that can be helpful, if you have, you know, laptop, phone, tablet, that can be useful for looking up information or seeing your character sheet. But for the most part, you're working with physical materials. You know, you've got miniatures, you've got dice, you've got battle Maps on your table. So I think that physical component of it is just a very, very different feel than video gaming, but it also kind of challenges your mind in a different way, because you don't have things just playing out in front of you and you're interacting with the screen, you kind of have to create that for yourself. And then it gets interesting, because the vision that you create in your mind is a little bit different from the person sitting to your right, and their vision is different from the person sitting across from them. So the way that you kind of craft this experience together makes it very, very unique.
When you think about the fact that DND is a brand, something that has lasted this long, is still part of our popular culture. This is something that I remember that in the 80s, it was a it was a very big deal. In fact, you know, there was a lot of conspiracy worries over it, that it was involved with witchcraft or something, and that it was dangerous. Oh, yeah. Then, I don't know if it's just nostalgia or what, but it's popped up a whole lot in popular culture over the last 10 years or so. And maybe that's because you have things like Stranger Things, where DND is a big part of the plot point there, because these are kids in the 80s playing DND. But what do you think it is about D and D that has made it part of our 2000s pop culture?
That's a really great question. I honestly I don't know. I think that. There's a lot of theories for sure, because, as you said, there are a lot of different sources that are now pulling from that. I think part of it is the rise of YouTube. YouTube has become much more popular since it was, you know, in like 2000s or so, and that has provided a platform for a lot of the nerdier creators, which has then led to more D and D content. And there are a lot of groups now that, you know, record DND episodes on YouTube, publish those, have their own channels and all that stuff. Critical Role, dimension 20. There's all sorts of them. They're very good, by the way, you should check them out. So I think kind of the the it's become more accessible to produce content for, you know, a wide variety of things, but I think for DND especially, so I think that has just kind of naturally led to more content for DND and given it more exposure. And then I think, like you said, too, that nostalgia element of, you know, kind of revisiting something maybe you did in your childhood, things like that. I think that has definitely contributed as well. And I think we've had a little bit of just kind of a societal shift towards embracing our nerdier, more creative side, too. So it's become more of an accepted and encouraged, even hobby. So I think that has let people kind of engage with it more encouraged more engagement with it. What
do you learn from somebody YouTubing about their DND campaign.
So there's a lot of variety out there. The two that I mentioned critical role and dimension 20, those are essentially DND TV shows, basically. So they record episodes. A lot of the people on those shows are, like professional voice actors, things like that. So what you see on there is maybe not what your tabletop RPG experience is going to be, but it's really helpful just to kind of get a basis of knowledge for what you might expect in a D and D campaign, a campaign, or like, you know what you can and can't do as a player. I know, for me, I get a little bit of social anxiety. So playing in a group, you know, with everyone else, could be a little bit daunting. I know it deters other people from playing D and D so being able to visit those sources first and kind of get a little bit of context to put that in, was really, really helpful for me. There are also a lot of great creators out there. Matthew Colville is one that creates videos, not so much on how to play D and D, but how to run D and D. So Matt Colville is really how I learned to run the game. He has a whole series, like 300 something videos on his channel all about running the game, kind of setting boundaries and balancing and all that kind of thing. So being able to listen to his videos, hear his experiences and guidance and everything, is really what made it possible for me and my husband also runs DND. That's kind of what got us started in running and, you know, kind of keeps us going, too. And it's just a really, really helpful way to be able to, again, put context to things, because you with a fantasy game, you inevitably encounter some wacky experiences, of course, you know. So it's helpful to have that source material to fall back on when you kind of get in a bind, or you're like, Oh my gosh. How on earth did we get to where we are? So it's really great tool, but it's also kind of a good source of inspiration too, to be able to develop our campaigns, further enhance player experience and just have more fun as a group. Well.
And one other question about people that are in the beginner stage, what do you need to bring if you want to get started with this, do you have to go out and have a certain number of books, and you probably need somebody that knows how to run a game, and you want to probably start as a participant, as opposed to trying to come up with it out of nowhere, sure, but what do you need to start
with? Ideally, yes, it is good to start as a player. The great thing about the technology resources we have today is you can play DND with zero physical materials. Now there are a lot of free resources online. I have a, like, a dice rolling app on my phone that I use so you can just roll dice that way. You don't even have to go out and buy physical dice. I would generally encourage it. I'm what's called a dice goblin. So I have like, some 150 dice sitting in my basement. Well,
let's stop. Let's stop. I'm gonna stop you right there. You know, I've seen this, so I don't play DND, but, you know, I've grown up during its height and all that. So I have lots of friends who have, why do you need that many dice? What's the difference in the dice? What is the value of having all the different dice? Yes, it's
definitely not a need. It's a want. I like to have kind of theme dice for the characters that I play. So right now, I'm playing a character that does kind of like fire magic, things like that, but the fire that she creates is black and white, rather than like, you know, red, orange, yellow, etc. So I am in the process of finding the perfect set of kind of swirly black and white dice to match the character does not impact the game at all. It just makes my brain happy. That's really all it is. I don't know what it is, though, there is something about purchasing dice that is like addictive to a lot of people. That's where the term dice goblin was coined. And then there are other people who will buy a single set of dice or even. Dice and just use, you know, some app on their phone, and that's what they'll use for years and years of playing DND, not me, but yeah, there's really no benefit to having more dice, but it is fun. Well, I
certainly think that the action of having the dice and throwing the dice is probably better than something on the phone. That way, you can always blame someone for how they threw the dice, as opposed to just the app. Okay, so what else do
you need? Ideally, you have someone in the group who knows the rules fairly well. However, I would say that is not necessary. I think one of the things that keeps people from playing DND is that at first glance, it seems like a very rules heavy game, and it can be, but you also really don't have to play it that way. The rules are there to guide you. They are not there to restrict you. So it's entirely possible to kind of take the shell, the concept of D and D, and just go play and you're going to get things wrong. Of course, you're going to do things that break the rules, but it doesn't matter if you have fun with your group. That's the purpose of the game. So if you if you have fun playing DND, you are playing D and D correctly. If you do want to follow the rules more, there are a lot of books that you can purchase. And Wizards of the Coast is the company that owns Dungeons and Dragons the game. They are owned by Hasbro. So you can purchase these nice books from them. They cost, usually somewhere around like 30 bucks a book. The one that people generally get started with is called the player's handbook that has all of the like rules that you need for creating character, you know, getting started in your first campaign, things like that. I would recommend that you don't necessarily have to get a physical copy, though, if finances are a barrier, you can also just download PDFs online. I don't remember off the top of my head how much it costs to just download them from Wizards of the Coast, but it's significantly cheaper than getting, like, the nice hardback book, of course. And then there's a lot of free material available online as well. Because, because D and D is collaborative by nature, a lot of people have created different material and published it online. A lot of it's free. A lot of it you can download for like, a $1 donation to somebody's Patreon, you know, things like that. So there's a lot of free material out there, a lot of easily accessible material that you can just kind of explore when you have time, but you really don't need to. I encourage people to just get your feet wet. Try the game. You don't have to know every rule, you don't even have to know most of the rules to actually just get started playing. And I really emphasize to balance it throughout your group. You know, if say, for example, I know the rules of combat really well, and you know the rules of exploration really well, that's great. So when we get into combat, I can be kind of the rules police, and then when you get into exploring, you'll help guide us through. It's not like one person, even the Dungeon Master. It's not like one person has to know every single rule to be able to play the game. Well,
Jesse, thanks so much for joining us today talking about Dungeons and Dragons and your upcoming courses. Hopefully you're going to find a bunch of new players who can dive into it and start their own groups or join an existing group.
Yeah, should be a good adventure.
Jesse berkelbaum works at the testing center at Heartland Community College and is the instructor for the introduction to Dungeons and Dragons course in the Continuing Education Department. If you're interested in more interviews about continuing education, creativity and more, subscribe to random acts of knowledge on Apple podcasts Spotify, or wherever you found this one. Thanks for listening. You.
