In many quoted a famous layman Pon naman Pong was one of the three most famous lay people in the Zen tradition. Lehmann palmful, daishi, and bimala keerti. Lehmann Pon said, don't be averse to falling into emptiness, falling into emptiness isn't bad. And then Dawei also said, he also said, just vow to empty all that exists, don't make real that which doesn't exist, just vowed to empty out you don't want to make a project out of emptying things. There is no Zen as a practice, ultimately, of non doing, there's nothing we need to do, we don't need to create an effect in our sitting. What he really means is, we can just put it in these terms allow all of the phenomena of the mind, to recede, to, to be seen as empty. Don't make real bets, which doesn't exist, is a word that conveys this reify reifies to make real, what doesn't exist. Most people make their thoughts real. And so they're deceived by their thoughts, they believe their thoughts. They hear their thoughts, they notice their thoughts, and they somehow fall prey to them. But if even if even physical things are empty, ultimately, without any substance, and this just means without any substance to them, how much more so can we see that thoughts and feelings and emotions are empty, concepts are empty, ideas are empty, empty, this means yes, no substance to them, no roots to them. They have no abiding reality. They are impermanent. They arise in the mind. Whether it's thoughts, emotions, get a rise in the mind, they last a shorter or longer period of time. And then they pass. That's what empty means.