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Organizational Consultation in Professional Counseling

Amber Watkins45min

Unknown Speaker

00:00

Speaker.

Speaker 1

00:09

Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.

Speaker 2

00:53

Welcome thoughtful counselor. Listeners. My name is Theo burns, I use he, him, his pronouns, and we are here with Mr. Kenneth Edwards, welcome to the thoughtful counselor.

Speaker 3

01:04

Thank you so much. Theo, it's so good to see you. Yeah, it's

Speaker 2

01:07

wonderful to have you. So could we start with you talking a little bit about jobs that you currently have and people and communities that you serve? And obviously, if there's a bio that you have that you think would be helpful for our listeners, let us in.

Speaker 3

01:23

Okay, definitely. Well again. Thank you so much for having me on the thoughtful counselor. This is a great joy. I love talking to people, and you know that I can just talk nonstop, but my name is Kenneth Edwards. I use he, him pronouns. I'm currently in private practice in San Francisco. So that's one job. And then my second job is I do some organizational consulting for Bay Area tech companies. And what does that mean? I get to talk to them about mental health at work, within their teams, team dynamics, if any sort of trauma happens at work, I'll host process groups, things like that. And then my third job, Theo, is actually one that I just left a little over a little under a year ago, as executive director for the California Association for Licensed Professional Clinical Counselors. And I always say, if you can say that three times fast, you get extra points. Oh, just practice that. So that used to be my third job, but it is no longer. But it was a really great time that I had

Speaker 2

02:29

awesome. You are not bored.

Speaker 3

02:34

No, no, I have enough to do. Oh, and you asked me about the populations that I work with. So as one of very few black male therapists in the Bay Area, I get the privilege of seeing people of color and the intersection with LGBTQ plus identities in the Bay Area, I absolutely love it, because it's such an underserved population that I that I get to work with. So I'm

Speaker 2

03:01

happy about that. Oh my gosh, so much to dig into. I'm really excited. Kenneth, can we start just having you tell us about your journey in the field of mental health, so kind of how you got to where you are? Yeah, maybe we can start there.

Speaker 3

03:15

Yeah, that's, that's a really good start. You know? It's, it's really funny. When I came out of college, I didn't think about psychology. I didn't think about counseling. You know, growing up as a, you know, black male in the south, that's just not something that you talk about. And what was so funny is that, you know, my mom will say she sent me to school. I went to the University of Texas at Dallas. She sent me away to school, and I, you know, spent all this money at school, and I went to become a banker. I loved it. I was a branch manager for a while, and a banker. I used to wear a suit and tie every day, and I had a pretty traumatic accident during that time, and as I lay in the hospital, I thought about the fact that I used to do really well at work, but I was ready to not do it anymore. I was tired of being a banker, and after that accident, I had started my own personal therapy journey. I had never been to see a therapist before, but in that first appointment, I said, this is what I want to do. This is exactly where I see myself sitting in that chair across from where I was helping someone to feel better, to reframe things, to better understand themselves. And my when I told my mom that I'm going to do this, she's like, I sent you to school to all those years, and you were a banker and all of that, now you're going to just switch and do this. I'm like, yep, that's what I'm going to do. So I gave myself a bit of time, quit my job as a banker, went back to graduate school, and from there, the story has just been great. I've enjoyed my journey getting into the industry. During my practicum and internship phase, I did my training at a psychiatric addiction. Hospital in Chicago. I worked in a college counseling center. I worked in a group practice. I used to do case management for homeless veterans and elderly people in independent care facilities and homeless shelters. So it was the range of presentations that I would see. There was a range of, you know, diagnoses and just, you know, social, economic status, all of those things that I got to see during my training. So it helped informed who I was as I started my own private practice now. And like you said, I don't get too bored. So I said, you know, when I moved from Chicago to San Francisco and opened my private practice and got licensed in California. It was so incredibly difficult to get licensed, even though I was already licensed where we moved from. So I reached out to our state level Association, and I said, Hey, why is this so difficult to get licensed in California? They, of course, had all the rules and regs and how to do it, but I thought to myself, this is really difficult. I'd like to get involved. Theo, would you believe that they hired me to be the executive director of this association? I looked in the mirror one day. I'm like me, little me. You picked me to do this, but I'll tell you, I was in that role for five years, had a blast, did some amazing transformations. Was able to see counseling from the perspective of the practitioner, as well as a policy maker, as well as an advocate for other counselors across the state. It's been the craziest journey, but the most rewarding one

Speaker 2

06:42

so many cool ways that your journey has been guided by small shifts and kind of moments. And I'm wondering if there are moments along the way that guided your decision that kind of pop out for you. Well, the first

Speaker 3

06:57

moment was the transition into the field, the accident that I was in. It's a long story that I don't mind telling, but we won't get into it here. That was one of the pivotal moments that said I don't like what I'm I did. Like my job and what I was doing. I felt that my time had come to an end in that role, and I wanted to do something that was more personally fulfilling. That was one part of of one moment that really shifted just sort of shook my awareness about what I wanted to do. Another one of those moments came up. I remember there was a patient that I worked with in Chicago whom I had to pick up from a bus station once because he had, hadn't been taking his his medication, you know, had gotten into a pretty bad space. And I said, You know what, I need to make sure this person's okay. And I remember, oh my gosh, it was such a tough time, but I felt good after it was done and he was okay. The next moment that came up for me that I can can think about was that moment when I was as executive director in the association and we had repealed a long standing law in the state of California around licensure that required counselors to do more training than what we thought necessary, that they had to because we're already trained in so many different ways, and we've met all state requirements. And, you know, just to gain parity across the state, it helped me to hit another one of those milestone points in my own career that said, You know what, I'm in the right place.

Speaker 2

08:36

That's awesome. So you had mentioned in your introduction that you do a little bit of organizational consulting, and I'm wondering if you can reflect on that piece, because some of our listeners may be at different points of their career journey, whether they're students or maybe they're thinking about entering into different professional roles. So can you reflect on that work a little bit for our listeners, and how you integrate that work into your professional identity as a counselor?

Speaker 3

09:03

Yeah, and Theo, that's a really good question. It was a natural fit for me to combine the two worlds. And someone might say, Well, you were a banker and now you're a counselor. How do those two things even work together? But you know what? As a banker, what I would do is sit with people, whether it's a personal client or a business client, and I would sit and I would interview them and say, Hey, talk to me about your financial goals. Talk to me about what you want to do with your money, those sorts of things. But at the end of that interaction, I had to sell them something from the bank, and what I learned is I didn't want to do that part of the role anymore. I wanted to continue to interrogate who they were and what made them tick. So as an organizational consultant, it's kind of the same thing. I get to sit with people, same as a counselor, I get to sit with people, talk to them about what's important to them and where they would like to see. Themselves, and I'm here to help facilitate getting them to that point. Now, as a counselor, one of the things that we have to continue to do is go to our fundamentals in terms of using empathy for the work that we do. And in counseling, we use empathy a lot. It's one of those things that we do, right? But for companies, it's the same thing. It's figuring out, you know, what are the team dynamics? You know, what are the politics of the workplace? What are the personalities and all of those things? And I feel like it's what was lacking in the organizational psychology world. I'm not going to say that they're not doing it. That's That's not fair to the to the profession, but I think that as a counselor and also as a previous business person, I'm able to put those two worlds together and then be able to just be present and then help organizations get to where they would like to get to.

Speaker 2

10:56

That's awesome. Yeah, so it sounds like some of what you're doing is reflecting on some of those skills and just expanding who the recipient of those skills are, from person to group or even organization

Speaker 3

11:09

Exactly, exactly and really, what I like best about that part of what I do is bringing in a mental health component to it. We're all humans. We all go through stuff and what. Again, what I get a lot of just deep enjoyment from when it comes to that type of work, is helping managers and organizations understand that their staff, their team, their people, they're real people, and unless we consider all of the pieces of who they are, we can't have a successful team.

Speaker 2

11:48

How receptive are your organizational clients to that feedback?

Speaker 3

11:55

At first, they aren't. They are not like, what are the results? What kind of why are we paying for you to tell me how this person feels? I think it's about making the case. So think about it, if we're seeing a client in counseling or therapy, we have to get buy in from them, that you know, they trust us, that they know what you know, what we're talking about when we tell them you know our insights around different things. It's no different when we're with an organization. But again, as a previous business person, I know how they think they want to know, how is me caring about this person going to affect my bottom line? Well, guess what? If you don't care about that person, they're not going to do their best work. They might call out sick, they might not get along with their team members. They might have a level of anxiety that doesn't allow them to work under certain conditions. But guess what? If you change that one little condition, they're going to give you their best work. They're going to be your best employee. So it's coming at it from that angle that helps them to better understand it.

Speaker 2

13:02

Yeah, that, and I hear really quickly that that shift can be so powerful in terms of people's productivity. Yeah. So let's think about some of our listeners who are thinking about expanding their work portfolio outside of direct clinical services. Maybe they're a student, maybe they've been doing direct clinical service for some time, and they're thinking about wanting to go into some of these areas. What advice do you have for them? That's

Speaker 3

13:30

that's a really good question, because, you know, as our clients and in therapy, are, you know, diverse people. They're multifaceted. You know you have different interests and and things that you like to do, or, like myself, you might be a career changer. So you've got several skill sets that you're able to put into place. The first thing that I would ask, though, is, why? Why are you looking to expand your portfolio out of direct clinical services. Why is it important to you? Is it burnout? Are you doing too much of one thing? I know that some of us who work in certain agencies or environments, it's tough. You know, sometimes the pay is not great. The client acuity is very high. There's limited budgets and time and space and and heavy case loads, things like that, so you might be burned out, and that could be a reason that you need to interrogate. After you've interrogated, what that might be. How do you assess your current knowledge skills and abilities to see what might be transferable to other types of either industries or allied professions or or even consulting work, things like that, and seeing how you might apply it. And then this third point is it's kind of it's kind of vague, and I call this a therapy answer. But give. Out and talk to your network. Okay, it's difficult to move into new industry and spaces without knowing people that are in the space. Earlier I mentioned, you know, when I was a banker and I wanted to go into counseling being, you know, you know, a southern boy and from a family and from a culture that doesn't talk about mental health as a thing that you're able to work in. I knew no one besides my own therapist who was a therapist, so I had to actively reach out to my network understand what it was to move into this new industry, and we call that social capital. So what I would encourage you to do is take out a pen and paper, write down the people that you know that are doing exactly what it is you might want to do. Do an informational interview, reach out to them, figure out how they got into it, and is it something that you might like to do? That's what I did.

Speaker 2

15:58

So I hear three pieces. I hear find your why. I hear assess your own skills. And then I hear use or utilize your network. That's right, yeah. And one of the things that you're bringing up, which I think is so great, is how often we are able to use our career counseling skills for clients, and we forget to do it for ourselves, and especially given that many listeners will be listening to this episode as they're maybe graduating from school and thinking about their job for the first time, or maybe they're thinking about a career change. So many of those career counseling skills are so vital to our own well being

Speaker 3

16:41

definitely. And you bring up a really good point. You know, even if you're just graduating school and thinking about what it is you want to do, I think that our graduate programs at times, don't expose us to the range of what we can do. I know that in my own program, we were taught to work in community agencies and and that's not a bad thing at all, but it was the path that we were sort of fed into. You know, a few of my my cohort, you know, went into private practice from the beginning, but even then, we were told this is the way that you should go. And it kind of limited the the view of what was out there. Only when I got out into the field I was able to see, oh, I could do case management, I could open my own agency. I can open a private practice, I could do consulting, I could teach. I could, you know, do all of these different types of things. So for the new professional that's coming out of school, look at all you have available to you, for the seasoned professional who might be in for a while, and you know, just kind of kind of feeling a bit stuck in the role that they're in. There is there are options out there to diversify what you do every day.

Speaker 2

17:54

That's awesome. So that is actually a perfect segue, because I know that we started our conversation talking a little bit about your trajectory and so many different kind of entry points that you've had into the field, not only as a clinician, but also as a consultant and then as an executive director at a state organization. So I kind of want to shift, if that's okay, to that tell us a little bit about you've seen a lot of experiences in the field of professional counseling, as well as the growth and change that's been happening in your work as an ED of a state organization. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what you've seen, where we need to go, where are we missing the mark?

Speaker 3

18:38

You know, that's a really good question, and you're gonna think, I'm a nerd, but this is what keeps me up at night. Theo, I lose sleep sometimes, or I used to lose sleep in my previous role with, how do we look at our profession and make it better, you know? How do we stay on top of things? How do we, you know, remain current, so that we don't go by the wayside? And the way that I think about this really is in three parts, okay, what we need to do as a profession itself, what we need to do as educators and mentors and perhaps more seasoned professionals in the field. And then what do we need to do as individual clinicians? So those are kind of the three areas that I that I think about this, and as a profession, I feel like we are missing the mark in embracing technology, in in counseling and therapy, and how we deliver services. You know, over the last couple of years, I've constantly brought to the table, and we've been having the conversation about how we're running scared from the onset of therapy apps and artificial intelligence as disruptors in the industry. Now, a colleague once told me, a couple of years ago, I was at a meeting, and he said, you know, consume. Are going to consume therapy in the ways that they're going to do it, whether we like it or not, and whether we're ready or not. So we've got to be ready and know how to how to work with it and work alongside it, so that we're not left in the dust. Now as educators and mentors and more seasoned professionals, what we've got to understand now is that our world is a lot more diverse than how we learn from our textbooks. You know, theory has involved. It has evolved, excuse me, over time where consumers of therapy services are more than you know, white western people. Right now, there have been light years and advancements around practice and how we account for cultural factors, but let's keep at it. There's too many times that I'm sitting in therapy with people and I'm explaining CBT, for example, to a young black male client about, you know, how he's perceiving the world. And I have to have a parallel conversation with this person that says, No, you did not perceive the world as looking at you. You're not wrong about how you perceive the world looking at you a certain way. You didn't just imagine it. This is actually true. We've got to look at things like CBT and be able to explain it to people in a way that doesn't blame them for their own condition, and sometimes even that is a little bit of a cultural nuance that we've got to get into.

Speaker 2

21:35

So I hear so I hear so vividly the importance of not only technology, but also understanding the real cultural impact that the profession can have on people's mental health and well being, and that if we don't really look at that kind of at a broader scale, we're actually doing a disservice Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 3

21:57

And Theo the final point here as individuals, and this was, again, one of the the things that I would mention in my previous role, and I still do today and these types of conversations, is as clinicians. You know, we've gone through our identity development models, and you know, if you look at all of the ways that we develop into our identities, and we tend to walk into our sessions and not in a, in a in a bad way, but I think that we expect for our clients to meet us where we are in our development, and we end up pushing them way faster than they probably should be through their own development. So we've got to get back to the fundamental around meeting people where we are. We walk in angry, ready to fight, fight, fight, and someone is just coming into labeling their identity for themselves. So you want to make sure that we honor that for them, while also checking our ourselves,

Speaker 2

22:59

our listeners can't see that I'm nodding vigorously as you're talking, because I've so had that experience, but I I appreciate you reminding us to kind of meet a client where they are, which, of course, we all do, but there are moments because of where we are in our own advocacy journey that we forget to kind of cycle back to where somebody is, so that we meet them where they are and not asking them to show up to where we are. Yeah,

Speaker 3

23:22

that's exactly true. And Theo, I thought of actually one more thing on this topic. I said there were only three things, but here's one more thing. In our association, there was a constant argument that was out there about counseling being too political, okay, and the association being too political. Well, let me tell you, counseling is political. It is. It just is. And as a counselor, if you don't know that, I don't know what to tell you and not in not to get into politics specifically, because that's a long conversation. But the state of politics and the world today has a direct like effect on people's sense of safety and well being and their identity and who they are. It's understanding that what they walk in the room with is a direct reflection of what's happening in the world today. So we have to understand that counseling is political. We have to understand that people's identities are threatened, and we have to understand how to hold that in our sessions.

Speaker 2

24:29

So I think a little bit about individuals who are at this place of wanting to get involved, maybe because of their own advocacy efforts. And you and I have used the a word so for for our listeners, we bring in the a word a lot on this podcast, because it's part of who we are as counselors. But I also think about so much work that you see as someone going into a state organization where you say, hey, I want to make that change. I want to do some extra work. And. I heard from your story really clearly, you saying, Gosh, you know what? Applying for licensure in a certain state doesn't have to be this hard. And then you're asking questions. The next thing you know, they're asking you to be the ED of the organization. Right? When you think about people who have not been in a service role in a state or national professional organization in counseling, and they're excited to get involved. What does that look like? Walk us through how you would mentor somebody who is interested in doing some of that work.

Speaker 3

25:32

Sure. And you know what the first point of that is, do it get in there? Just, just, just dig in. I'll tell you how to do that in a second, but be ready to understand that change is really, really difficult, and it's a pretty rough road to get large groups of people, licensure boards, state legislators, nationwide, lawmakers, people to agree and move in a certain direction. It's possible, though, so the first step is reaching out to your organization, your state or your local or your national organization, and just tell them you want to get involved in whatever it is they're doing. This may mean joining a board of directors, you know, volunteering to host events, writing letters or otherwise being sort of a part of the operations of the association. And you know, in my own service as Executive Director, I learned three things, as I mentioned, change is difficult, but it is rewarding. At the end, it's tough to say that, you know, in the middle of the change, because it could be really tough, but at the end, when you hear people thank you and thank the organization for what you did. It actually fills your heart. Another thing that I learned is people might be hesitant to jump on the bandwagon, but they'll join in when they see the value. And that's another thing. And you've got to sort of create a value statement, create why this is something that you would want to do, or what you feel as important to move move things forward. And then the third thing is, is keep at it, if you believe in it, okay, someone will listen along the way. It gets frustrating, but you know what? Keep at it and and people will listen. And I think I mentioned this earlier, Theo, but you know, with those values, and I only learned those in the job, nobody told me that's what I should be thinking about. But with those values, we were able to repeal that couples and families requirement for Licensed Professional Clinical Counselors. We repealed some outdated requirements for students and associates to get additional courses and training hours when their professional counterparts, social work and Marriage and Family Therapists didn't have to do those things. We advocated for teletherapy requirements during the pandemic and a whole lot more things. So it's possible, it's got to stick to it.

Speaker 2

27:56

So I'm hearing that part of it is when you stick to it. Some of these specific pieces of legislation, which it sounds like your state organization really worked for to advocate for equality in terms of licensure requirements for counselors that it was really helpful. And I also really appreciate you naming that. If you want to do it, get in there. And I just want to, I just want to name for all of our listeners, regardless if you're in Mississippi, Minnesota, Massachusetts, I'm naming all the M states that no matter where you are, there's a state organization. Don't forget. Montana, thank you Gosh. Maryland, right? I'm sure there's a, there's an M ticket that I left out Northern Mariana Islands, okay, thank you. Oh my gosh, yes. With that, there are so many places that need you to get in there. You meaning every single one of our listeners. So if you're interested in helping out at a state organization, this is the place for it, yep, tell us. I'm going to shift gears again. Kind of tell us about your future. What is the next chapter like

Speaker 3

29:03

you mean, my future tomorrow, I think I'm gonna go to what Amber burger, because I'm down here in Texas at the moment, and that's my spot.

Speaker 2

29:10

I love Whataburger. There's a mushroom Swiss situation that I can't get enough of. Yes, I'll take a picture of it and send it. Okay, subscribe to updates. Yeah.

Speaker 3

29:22

But my future. You know, I hadn't shared this yet, but I am just finished with a PhD in business psychology, and it's got a consulting focus on this business psychology PhD. So I just finished some final edits yesterday, and just getting ready to turn that in and get ready for graduation here in the next four weeks. So that's in my future. That's a thing I'm actually very happy with. What I'm doing now, but I want to do more of it. But now with a few more quills in my back pocket, I look forward to seeing clients. You know, as it keeps me going. Grounded to being a clinician, and I really like that, you know, I hope to grow my consulting practice, and, you know, keep, you know, participating in the change that companies go through as it pertains to mental health and their teams things like that. I would love to write a book, maybe, and something about nonprofit association management. You know, from my perspective as an executive director, and continue doing things like this on the speaking circuit, about mental health in the workplace, association management, things like that.

Speaker 2

30:33

So can I call you Dr Edwards, or does that? Do we have to wait for that? Tell me

Speaker 3

30:36

about we have to wait. We have to wait still another few weeks. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll drop you a line where you can call me. Okay, yeah. But my, my inside joke with my friends is because they asked me the same thing. They're like, do we have to call you Dr Kenneth or Dr Edwards? I'm like, Yeah, number one. But you only have to do it the first time because then I'll go, no, no, just call me Kenneth. It's okay.

Speaker 2

30:58

That's perfect. Can you briefly let us know a little bit about your dissertation work and what you did your dissertation on?

Speaker 3

31:06

Sure, yeah, it's, it's a passion project of mine. I've been working at it for a few years. But as I mentioned, the PhD itself is in business psychology, not in clinical work. So it's not that I'm a psychologist in the clinical sense, but what I get to do is go into organizations and consult with them, around change management, around team dynamics, around any number of organizational psychology subjects, and then as a clinician On the master's level, what I've done is taken those skill sets and combined it into the dissertation, and what I focus on is mental health at work. And specifically what I've taken a look at is I've interviewed a group of people who have diagnoses of anxiety and depression, and I wanted to understand how they show up in the workplace. You know, what are their perceptions of how management views them? You know, what do they wish their colleagues and their organizations and their managers would know about people with anxiety and depression? Did was took that data and came up with a set of recommendations for what companies could do to better provide accommodations for people with anxiety and depression, specifically, because Theo wouldn't, you know it, this was a huge gap in the literature. There isn't a lot of what's called Phenomenological Research, so learning of that lived experience, that interviewed experience of what workers go through in the workplace. The data came out really interesting. Some of the quotes and themes that I came up with, I'm so looking forward to sharing it with the world. So it should be published here in the in the next month or two, but I would be very happy to send it to whomever. I'll post it out online, and it'll be something that people can read. Our

Speaker 2

33:03

listeners are going to look out for that I really, actually appreciate the importance of the contribution that that therapists and counselors can make as they go into the workspace, because I hear this is yet another way that we can influence the organization as a system. Is, hey, here are workers who are surviving and thriving with mental health related concerns. And these are ways that we can be specifically attentive in a way that's humane. Yeah, that's awesome. Kenneth, what brings you joy? I ask all of my guests that,

Unknown Speaker

33:40

oh, now you're going to do the whole Doctor heal thyself thing, aren't you?

Speaker 3

33:48

Joy? Oh, that is a, that is a fun question, and it's funny, because, you know, as clinicians, we always encourage people to think about that in the in the therapy chair. You know, I kid a little bit about it being a very difficult thing, but joy can be pretty hard to grasp onto if we're not intentional about it, if I'm not intentional about it, so I have to be super intentional about the things that make me happy. The first thing is cooking and eating. It's probably my favorite thing to do, so that's a that's a fun thing for me as a counselor. What I get into a lot is seeing the light bulb come on for people, and seeing the joy when they learn something new about the world, about themselves and how they relate to the environment around them. That is probably one of the biggest professional joys that I have. Yeah, and along those lines, for me, personally, what I've discovered about myself, again, through my own professional or through my own therapy journey, is the the concept of agency. Agency is learning my own agency. As helpers, we get into just our day to day work with helping other people find their own agency. And I think that we forget because we're always being, you know, the good therapist, we're also always being the good friend or the good family member or the good coworker or colleague or manager or educator or any of the roles that we serve, we're always trying to be the best, and I think that we forget to look inward at what we want and what decisions we need to make for ourselves. So for me, where I find joy is where I find agency. It's being able to wake up in the morning and on a very basic level, do whatever you want to do. And that comes with a certain level of privilege sometimes that not everyone has. And we have to recognize that in certain roles in our lives, we may not have that privilege. We might be taking care of a sick parent or family member. We might be the only person at work that knows how to do a certain thing. So we can't, exactly, you know, exercise our own agency. But sometimes in that moment of making your coffee in the morning, and you're like, you know what? I'm going to put as much sugar as I want to in this coffee, because you do it okay? Or another day you don't feel like coffee and you want tea. I'm using a very basic example. Do it. Or if it's on vacation, Theo and you want a margarita at 10 o'clock in the morning, do it. That's agency, okay? And being able to decide for yourself what you would like to do. So I like to do that for myself.

Speaker 2

36:43

That's awesome. So finding small ways that that agency happens in a variety of different contexts, I hear, yeah, that's great. So the last question that I have for you is about self care practice, which is a huge topic right now in the mental health field, and one that I know so many of our listeners, both who are not only Counselor Educators, but also counselors themselves are grappling with in these uncertain times, tell us about your self care practices, and how do you recommend engaging in self care?

Speaker 3

37:15

So this is another one of those questions about joy, and you know what? As a as a clinician, I think that we're the worst at self care again, because we're always giving of ourselves until we're just, you know, a pile of dust at times, and it's difficult to track what our own self care looks like. But for me, I go back to what I mentioned earlier, around cooking and eating and hosting people. I've got this, this ginormous garden where I would grow lots of food and all of that. And Theo, I don't get in the dirt. I don't garden. I like to harvest with my big basket and make it look pretty and look like a farm to table or something, kind of a thing. So that's, that's what's fun for me. I love being able to present it to people and host a party or things like that. Those are my favorite things to do now in these uncertain times. You know, earlier we talked about politics as a thing, those are the times that we are in right now, okay, and what I've done for myself, and what I encourage other people to do, is focus in on yourself, your family, your friends and your community. It's what we can do. Okay, there's a little intervention that I do in counseling with people, and it's super basic. We take out a piece of paper and we make two columns, like a little T chart, and on one side of the T chart things that I can control, and on the right side, things that I cannot control. And it's contextual. It's based on whatever situation you'd like to do that in focus, in on what you can control. Yeah, it's, it sounds super simple, and it's like, well, why did nothing to that before? Well, guess what we get into these times that we are in today, and we forget what we can focus in on. That's where I tend to start. Because, guess what? I can't control what's happening in Washington DC or what's happening in other parts of the world. Yeah, I could do a little post on social media or something like that. But you know what? If that's the thing that I can do in that moment to keep myself sane and safe. That's what I'm going to do. That's it. Yeah, that that's, that's a that's a big piece. And another thing that I do is, and this is, a very, very practical thing, is turn off those news notifications. Turn off the headlines popping on your phone every 15 minutes with the next big crisis, right? Everything is on fire. Everything is on alert. Everything is you know, we've gotta be hyper vigilant about everything. Our brains are not designed to go from crisis to crisis to crisis all the time. Now, in some communities, they go from crisis to crisis to crisis. Crisis, but if we can limit our exposure to things that we just don't need to see right now, if it doesn't pertain to us, doesn't mean that we don't care. It just means that we cannot just be on alert all the time, and it's limiting watching the news. Don't watch the news in the mornings so that it doesn't inform the way that your day feels. Maybe you watch the news in the afternoon or the evening or something like that, or not at all, just watch what you need to. But that's what's been keeping me

Speaker 2

40:28

safe right now. That's awesome. Kenneth, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you wish that I had, or anything that you want to leave our listeners with before we end? Oh,

Speaker 3

40:37

you know what? Theo, I thought about something you had asked me an earlier question about the direction of counseling, what I think that we need to do. And I and I thought of one other thing, and and I remember when I said, Oh, Theo, I have three things to mention to you about what I think. And then I went on the list 50. But I have, I have one more point that I was thinking about. Let's make it 51 that works for me. That works, you know, in my previous role, I go back to that because it was where I got a chance to do the most advocacy work. I would always advocate, you know, for the future of our profession. And sometimes what I found difficult was that, you know, counseling is a profession, but it's also an industry, yeah, and I think that sometimes what happens is we're afraid to see our profession as an industry, because it monetizes it, and it feels a little gross to talk about money. It's one of the, I think, big criticisms of our industry is that we don't know how to talk about, you know, fee setting and things like that. So we don't learn that it's okay to charge a fair rate for your services. We don't learn that it's okay that you should not work for free or severely reduced rates, because we're helpers, and got to understand. You went to school and got a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, perhaps a doctorate. You've gone through years of training and licensing, worked really, really hard to create a certain life for yourself. And I think that as a profession, as educators, as mentors, as seasoned professionals, as individuals, we've got to constantly beat that drum that we're not out here working for free just because we are helpers. And I think that the narrative in our field is we've got to, you know, be downtrodden in order to do this work, and that's not fair to us, and it contributes to burnout in the industry. It contributes to people leaving the industry because they simply can't afford it. And but as I'm saying it out loud, what I think it creates another barrier to entry for the field that lets more diverse populations become counselors. So I know, you know, even in my previous role, one of our biggest things was it's so difficult for black and brown people to go into counseling, knowing that you've got to take off work for a couple of years, yeah, in order to work in this profession, who can afford to do that. So we've got to advocate for paying Associates, and sometimes they end up working for free, or they work for very reduced rates. We've got to pay better we've got to advocate for higher insurance reimbursements. We've got to advocate for so much around pay and income disparity when it comes to this profession, and we've got to go up and ask for what we're worth.

Speaker 2

43:43

Yeah, I appreciate so much you, bringing us back to the topic of financial literacy, not only as individuals with clients, but also as a profession, in terms of our longevity and sustainability. Yeah, kind of a huge thank you from not only the thoughtful counselor, but so many that will benefit from your wisdom. And I just appreciate that any time that I have to be able to sit down and kind of chat it up with you a little bit. So just grateful for your time.

Speaker 3

44:11

Oh Theo. Thank you so much. And thank you to your community of listeners, too. And you know, always use me as a resource. Look me up on LinkedIn. I'd be happy to have mentees or people who just have questions that they want to ask about how to transition careers, or the future of counseling, or, you know, how do we get in there and march, march and advocate for for the profession and move us forward.

Speaker 2

44:35

Awesome community. You heard it here first. You better get you better get to that LinkedIn, because it's going to fill up quickly. Kenneth, thank you so much for your time, and we'll see you again soon on the thoughtful counselor.

Unknown Speaker

44:47

Great. Thank you.

Speaker 1

44:55

Thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoyed the show this podcast. Is made possible through our partnership with concept. Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept, as always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe. You.

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