03 230712 “Just say no,” “toughen up,” “call us back when you get fired,” and other advice that doesn’t work in a toxic work environment | Otter.ai

03 230712 “Just say no,” “toughen up,” “call us back when you get fired,” and other advice that doesn’t work in a toxic work environment

Meredith Holley43min

Megan Goering Mellin

00:05

Just Say No, toughen up, tell us back when you get fired. A lot of us have heard some bad advice that doesn't work in a toxic work environment. But today we're going to talk about what works instead. And the answer is boundaries. What are they boundaries are unique to each of us. And they are as unique and specific to the situations that we find ourselves in at work. And today, Meredith is going to help us illuminate how we can execute boundaries effectively in the workplace, when it's a little bit more complicated, especially the farther we go in our career or in a given company. Thank you for joining us. And Meredith, thank you for your willingness to share about this really salient topic. Hey,

Meredith Holley

00:50

I'm excited. So I think first, we have to sort of say, what are we talking about when we talk about boundaries, because some people have different definitions of boundaries. So when I'm talking about boundaries, I think of boundaries as similar to a property boundary, like a personal boundary is like the boundary that's around your house. So just like we know, if our neighbor comes into our home without knocking, that's a violation, probably, unless we've given them permission to, we know when someone's coming into our space and violating our personal boundaries. Boundaries can be physical, they can be emotional, spiritual, or energetic, they can be intellectual, they can, and they are all nuanced to us. Some people will sort of say that you're not allowed to have a boundary, if it's not the same boundary is what they have. But we all get to define our own boundaries. Because we know who we are some, some people also define boundaries a little bit differently. And they include sort of our expectations for how other people behave around us. And I think that that is fair, and can be a way that we use boundaries, and that we think of boundaries. But at a base level, the way I like to start thinking about it is just as the line between us and another person, it's not necessarily the agreements we've made with the other person, it's not necessarily our expectation of how they behave that doesn't cross into our space is just what crosses into our space.

Megan Goering Mellin

02:27

Got it. So the second part is like, the expectations would be like, well, at the last team, all of my direct reports sent me a birthday card, and I don't feel like I can have a great relationship with you, unless you're sending me birthday cards. Like that's not what we're talking about. In this case, that might be an expectation, that might be an agreement, like, you know, one team member brings a birthday cake for the other person, and then the other person brings a team, you know, birthday cake for the next person. That's what we're talking about here. What we're talking about is the is the boundaries, like property, boundaries, like your physical space, your emotional space, your intellectual kind of respect that you need to get the job done. One other thing that I love, that we talk about, sometimes around that house analogy, or like somebody coming, stepping on to somebody else's property is that you might invite your friend over, or frankly, you might invite an electrician over to come into your house and like go mess around with the circuit board or the breaker box in your house. But if your mother in law comes in and you know is has been invited to have tea in the living room, and then just walks to your breaker box and starts to having a fork in the breakers, like this is actually it's not the same situation as the electrician scenario. And I think it sounds simple, when you look at it in a house like of course, the kids that you invited over for a birthday party are not supposed to be going through your financial files, like in house, it makes perfect sense. But sometimes in work environments, it can get very, very blurry, especially when there are people who are not in a great habit of being curious about other's needs and preferences in their own lives. And then there they are in the workplace. They think that everybody else should permit and celebrate their behavior, no matter what the impact of that behavior is. And then in our personal lives, we might just distance from that person. But in the workplace, they could be on your team. They could be a manager, they could be a crucial direct report or a peer. And so the normal thing was like, well, we're just not going to be as closer friends with that person. And we're not going to have them over on Christmas. It's not actually the same set of rules that you're in, in the workplace situation.

Meredith Holley

04:37

Right. So I always tell the story. I'm like really early, I think I was still in law school. At this point. I had the opportunity to read the Student Conduct hearing. And there was a student at this university who a number of grad he was a graduate student and there were a number of women who were graduate students who had reported him for touching them. I'm in the computer lab touching them different times and, and so they were testifying, and then the women testified, you know, I've told him not to touch me. I've told him my personal space is important to me. I've told him, this is triggering to me. I've tried to communicate, I've tried to communicate my boundaries over and over. And he keeps touching me. And then you read on to the the man's testimony. And he says, well, they keep talking about their boundaries, but what if my boundary is to touch them? Hmm. And I think that that sort of is a common,

Megan Goering Mellin

05:37

it's cold cultural conflicts. I mean, in places where there is an issue, usually there is some kind of difference of opinions like this in play, people, a manager that I worked with, would make comments on people's appearance and who was very beautiful, and how to become more beautiful in the workplace, and just a lot of comments, appreciating and coaching, advancement of one's attractiveness and appearance. And that was for them, that was like a really important expression of their, you know, opinion, appreciation, frankly, for other people, that was very important. And for other people in the workplace, who were from like a different work context, that was offensive or dangerous, because some people from other cultures have learned if actually, we are to forward with appearance at work in some way, we will be then held to account for inviting, you know, the wrong kind of attention. But you know, for the manager giving the feedback, it was like blindsiding that everyone was not very supported, right. So there is a culture conflict, the way that it actually shows up, which can be very, very tricky. When you're on the side of feeling discomfort,

Meredith Holley

06:52

right? I even had a client one time, say, and talk about. So this is not a work context. But it was a situation with her husband, where they had had a number of fights, and about money, and he would sort of criticize her about her use of money. And then she had told him, I have my own, like she had her own income, they had separate bank accounts, you're not invited to comment about my use of money. And so one night at dinner, he made a comment about some orange pillows she had bought in and put by their pool, and it just sent her off the chart, she was so mad, that he would do it. But if we treat that comment and treat that statement, as a boundary violation, so she had said, speaking about money, criticizing me about my use of money as a boundary violation. If we treat that as a boundary violation, it can kind of step us out of the space of just being reactive and sitting in the unfairness of it. And also, frankly, in a situation of touching at work, which can be unsafe, in a situation of commenting on people's appearance, which can feel unsafe, like in any of these situations where it can feel unsafe. If we have a structure for how to deal with boundary violations and plan on them happening, then it's not as actually unsafe, you can still experience someone having unsafe behavior, or just behavior that is like, not what you want to tolerate for any reason. It doesn't have to be unsafe to be behavior you don't want to tolerate coming into your space. And and then you can have steps for handling it and not have to take yourself out of the situation. Or just sit in that space of feeling disrespected, feeling dehumanized, feeling afraid. So for me when I was in my workplace situation. The biggest thing for me that was a boundary violation is my boss would put his hand on my shoulder. And like, to me, in my mind, I was describing it like he's massaging my back all the time, he won't stop touching me. It felt very scary. And I was sort of like, you know, I have to work late at night, and he's the only person here this could escalate to something dangerous. But ultimately, when you reduce it to I don't want people to put their hands on my shoulder at work. Like that's true for anybody. To me. That's a zero times event experience at work. I just don't appreciate being touched at work. It wasn't even about him. Although it was it felt scarier because it was him. But we can say I don't appreciate when people comment on my use of money. I don't appreciate when people describe me. Like that, honestly, is a very common boundary. Humans do not appreciate being described, even if you're trying to compliment them. They tend to did not like it. And so if you can reduce it to this as just a boundary that I have in my space, it becomes more clear. And even if there is somebody like the Student Conduct hearing, who believes that their boundary overlaps with yours, you are still allowed to enforce your boundary, as you see fit. Sometimes there are consequences for that, right. So if he believes his boundary overlaps with hers, and he needs to enforce his right to violate her boundary, it's not a real boundary at that point, honestly, because people have their own autonomy and their own bodily integrity. So that's obviously not like a real thing that is more invasion and control because it's not about his space, it's about going into her space. However, like even in that situation, like if he wants to enforce his boundary of touching her, then there may be consequences for him. There may be criminal consequences for him ultimately, because as a society, we've agreed that some boundaries are enforceable in the law, other boundaries are still valid, and they're not enforceable by law.

Processing audio...