Ep. 37: Black Male Academic Achievement w/ Dr. Ramon Goings
10:51PM Mar 13, 2023
Speakers:
Dr. Ian Anson
Campus Connections
Alex Andrews
Dr. Ramon Goings
Keywords:
students
umbc
adult learners
research
experiences
study
campus
dissertation
question
work
black male
college
anson
goings
college students
speaks
teacher
approach
success
understand
Hello and welcome to Retrieving the Social Sciences, a production of the Center for Social Science Scholarship. I'm your host, Ian Anson, Associate Professor of Political Science here at UMBC. On today's show, as always, we'll be hearing from UMBC faculty, students, visiting speakers, and community partners about the social science research they've been performing in recent times. Qualitative, quantitative, applied, empirical, normative. On Retrieving the Social Sciences we bring the best of UMBC's social science community to you.
One of the most interesting, indeed amazing, realizations that I had when I first began teaching undergraduates was that Americans are in fact deeply misled about college students. Yes, it is true that every year 1000s upon 1000s of bright eyed, eager 18 to 19 year olds arrive on college campuses to begin a formative four year journey in higher education. Much like the opening scene in Don DeLillo's brilliant novel, White Noise, move in day as a raucous affair that witnesses these first year students settling into their new on campus living arrangements, and bidding goodbye to their tearful parents before the minivans and the station wagons all disappear down the road. Record scratch moment. For the median American college student this depiction of move in is nothing more than a scene in a movie. That's because according to the Urban Institute, only around 36% of public four year college students live on their college's campus. While that figure is obviously much higher for first year students, it's the first piece of evidence against our contrived version of the college story. But it gets more complex. Because according to the National Center for Education Statistics, only about two thirds of college students are even below age 24. For an additional third, the tearful parents might not be departing campus in their minivan, the students might be driving the minivans themselves with their kids in tow and a life in full swing. Adult learners comprise an impressive proportion of today's college students. And their needs are surely different than students who transition to college directly from high school. And when we factor in the notion that race and social forces likely make this dynamic all the more complex, we're going to need an expert to unpack these consequences.
Thankfully, here at UMBC, we have just such an expert. Dr. Ramon Goings is an associate professor in the Language, Literacy, and Culture interdisciplinary doctoral program. Dr. Goings' research interests are centered on exploring the academic and social experiences of gifted and high achieving black males, Pre-K to PhD, diversifying the teacher and school leader workforce, and investigating the contributions of historically black colleges and universities. Dr. Goings is the author of over 50 scholarly publications, including four books. He's received numerous awards for this work, including the 2016 College Board Professional Fellowship. And that's why I'm delighted to bring you our recent conversation right now.
Today, I'm really delighted to welcome to the podcast, Dr. Ramon Goings, a professor at UMBC. Dr. Goings, thank you so much for being here.
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
Absolutely. So I want to jump right in, obviously, we've got a lot to talk about, you know, this research stream that you've been producing for the last, you know, many years now, it's really an impressive research stream. Books, articles, you know, work in pieces like Inside Higher Ed. And so the research that you're working on focuses largely on the academic success of black males. And I'm impressed to see that this scope of work really focuses all the way from kind of the pre kindergarten level to the college level and then beyond. And most recently, you know, you've done a lot of work on understanding the successes specifically of adult learners. I think that's a really interesting angle here. And I wanted to ask you, first of all, you know, I think a lot of listeners might be thinking about, you know, education and, and finding academic success in that kind of K through 12, or college level. What are the biggest differences you you take in your approach between childhood and adult education in this realm? And why, right? Why focus on adult learners in the first place?
Yes. So I think first is important to give some context that I didn't know and I never thought I was gonna study adult learners. It was actually by, I would say a mistake. So researchers will do you know, we go into a study, and when I was doing my dissertation, which looked at the experiences of high achieving black male students at a historically black university, what I thought I was going to get was an 18 to 22 year old like myself, who like went straight from high school to college. And the first person responded to my request to be in my study was a man named Rahim. He was 62 years old, father of 15, and his oldest son was a heavyweight champion of the world, just to put it in context. (Dr. Anson: Wow!). He was like, "I'm an old guy. I'm going back to school because I'm a millionaire in construction but I can't use my skills in schools to teach without a college degree, even though I've amassed a lot of success." So he's like, "I'm old, but if you want me to be in your study, cool." So I put him to the side. And then I had another man, Brandon, who was 39 years old at the time, father of three, and he worked the London Stock Exchange. And he's like," I'm an old guy too going back to college. I don't know if you me want to be a part." Put him to the side. And another person came, who was 30, let's see at the time, he was 36, and a retired veteran of police force. He got hurt in the line of duty. And he said "I'm going back to college to get my law degree." So it was all these things that I was like, alright, there's something here. And then I went to all the adult education scholars I could find, I said, "Hey, I'm finding all, you know black male adult learners. Is there anybody doing this?" They're like, "No, nobody's doing this work." At that point in time. They're like, you should just run with it, and that's essentially what I did. So that's the only reason why I give you the context, understand why I'm even studying this in the first place.
Yeah, that's fantastic. I mean, I think about, you know, my experience coming to UMBC for the first time and thinking kind of along the lines that you're thinking, right. I'm gonna have 18 to 22 year olds in this classroom, they're going to be of this specific age, they're going to be, you know, most of them are gonna live on campus, they're going to carry their backpacks around campus. It's like, that's not the reality of education, of college education in America today, right? There's learners of all kinds of backgrounds, all kinds of lived experiences that are bringing that experience to the classroom. So first of all, that's, that's really awesome how much that accords with I think it's just kind of stereotypical assumptions about what college is in America today. But that's not that at all. So that leads you to investigate this adult adult education which nobody's looking at. And so tell me more about this.
Yeah. So I wanted to understand, like, what was their experience like, and they just talked about this idea, even though they did academically well, they just talked about the idea of being people who failed. And so I thought that was very interesting about their experiences, how they would describe their success was, if I described what they were talking about was failure. And they learned so much. And just to give an example, Rahim was the 62 year old, one of my first works talked about this idea, he dropped out of school in eighth grade, because he found that school was not relevant to him. He said he had all the skills that he needed as an eighth grader. He's like, why would I keep going to school, I can go to pass the test, but it was limiting, limiting me in terms of the money I could make to support my family. And so I thought that was very interesting. And so just to see what their experiences have been, and just continuing to study this population, and then looking back, my own mother was an adult learner. I hadn't thought about it until I started doing this line of research just to see, there are a lot of students who leave for various reasons. And sometimes they get framed as like dropping out. But it's just kind of like, I need a pause for life. And then I come back. And so I had to really reframe my mind about what around what happens to students when they leave college. It's not like it's a death sentence, like, they're never going to come back. Many of them do. I mean, even the work at UMBC is doing like to bring adult learners back to campus is phenomenal, because a lot of students who want to finish but just might need the extra push later on in life.
Right. So so students are feeling a stigma, potentially. (Dr. Goings: yeah). Do you think that's a barrier to their willingness to come back, feeling like they're going to be out of place?
Yeah, I think that might I think that's a piece, but I think also might be another piece of that day, you know, depending on how long that gap in time is, like, literally, technology has changed. Like, imagine if someone who left school in 2000 is coming back now. It's a totally different higher education landscape. And so it's like, how do I navigate these systems, everything's different than what it was when I was here initially. And so I think a lot of times, it's a matter of the knowledge base about how to navigate the systems of higher ed, sometimes can be a deterrent. So it's even like how do I go back and register? Like, how do I figure out my, you know, I was here so long ago, how do I figure out what my credits are still good? Like all those things that would like prohibit a student from coming back. I think there's a lot of those systematic and procedural things I think are what are keeping students bet.
So obviously, the focus of your research is, is mostly on black males and black male success in the classroom and in, in lifelong learning. Tell me a little bit about about this particular population. Are there specific sort of theories or specific approaches that apply best to this group that, you know, might might allow us to better understand how to sort of foster that level of success?
Yeah, I think you have to look at them at each level. So in the K through 12 work there are a lot of scholars who have been focusing on you know, supporting Black male students in schools. One who, whose work I leaned a lot on was Gilman Whiting from Vanderbilt University has what's called the Scholar Identity Model. It's kind of like this construct of how Black boys can be successful in school settings and kind of particularly nine constructs that he has in his model, with the base of it and foundation being self efficacy. Like, and I use that a lot in my work. And then I since extended that work, because there was nothing at the time about adult learners, Black male adult learners, and so I created a theory. So I have a theory called The Black Male Adult Learner Success Theory that I developed based on the research that I was doing already, just to have a theory out there for other researchers to be able to understand the population and understand not only what, why are they successful, but the environment? So what is it about the institution, what is it about the community? What is it about society influences these men to be successful? And so I always tell researchers, like just look at it in each setting because what's happening to the 18 or even a 15 year old in the high school setting is very different and life circumstances might be very different than a 35 year old who's in college trying to figure things out.
Absolutely. And so what you're telling me a little bit is that institutions matter here, to some extent, right. So what are some features of institutions that are going to lead to the successes?
Yeah, I think it's a matter of, you know, having caring people who see these students as having a lot to provide. And ito just give an example, in some of my work, I found that when I've compared adult learners versus traditional age college students, we just take the college setting is that the adult learners sometimes have more experience than the professors teaching them in that particular subject matter. And so a lot of times, they're the oldest who's had to figure out ways to not outdo the professor in class. And I've heard instances and I've seen in our data that where students knew that the professor was wrong, but they couldn't say anything, because like, I'm still a student is a power differential. So I think understanding the skills and the experiences that adult learners bring to our campuses, and then figuring out ways as a professor to cultivate that in our class versus it being something that's challenging them, I think, will be a key piece. Just some simple pragmatic things is like making sure that the university has childcare available. So you know, a deterrent for a lot of students is like, I want to take classes during the day. I may even have works schedule that's flexible enough, but childcare is an issue. And so figuring out ways, colleges would be smart to do this, because then it gives the education students, the psychology students, your social work students, all these practical, practical experiences with children, especially if they want to go into that field. It's beneficial for the students, as well as the staff, faculty, and students that are on campus. I think for everyone, something as simple as that is really impactful.
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, that there are some synergistic opportunities here, are thre not, right. IF administration is actually going to acknowledge that this is the reality of the experience of these students. You're right, the programs, even staff and faculty can take advantage of those systems as well. So that's really interesting insight. And certainly, I think it speaks to the broad applications of this research. One of the things on Retrieving the Social Sciences that we really love about about research and especially the kind of work that you're doing is emblematic of this, where it's not just pure research for researches sake, right, this obviously this kind of stuff that has legs that can can translate into real outcomes for for students. Before we get to that, you know, this is a podcast about the social sciences, right? It's a podcast about social science research. And so of course, I'm going to try to ask you a few questions about research methods. One of my favorite topics. And so obviously, in some of the earlier discussion, we had you were alluding to the fact that you were interviewing some of these individuals. And so I wanted to ask, first of all, kind of what what kind of data are you collecting in terms of these, these these scholarly works? And kind of what are the what are the methodological approaches all told, that you're bringing to the table to understand this population?
My earlier work was mostly qualitative. That what I had, and I always tell students in my doc program in LLC is like, first things first, it's like, let your research question dictate the method. So because you know, we want to answer the question first and foremost, so we just want to find the best method that aligns to that. And so initially, the question I was asking required more qualitative approaches. Since then, I actually went back funny, I got a doctorate and then went back to school because I wanted to develop my statistical skill set even more than I had when I finished my doc program, so through an NSF project, I went back and got started working with a psychometrician to develop my quantitative skill set, because I wanted to ask more quantitatively oriented questions and do mixed methods research. And so I just wanted that skill set. So now my work is leaning, you know, I still do qualitative work, but now some of the questions are asking a more quantitative in nature, looking at large datasets and doing that type of work. So I always just dic, let the question dictate where I go, and then I move from there.
Yeah, that's fantastic advice. I mean, certainly, something that resonates with me as a political scientist, right, where, you know, we've, I think, triangulating across these different methodological approaches is a really valuable way to really understand power dynamics and how politics works in practice. Yeah, speaking of some of these larger datasets, are these things that you're obtaining through some sort of, kind of secondary source or sometimes are you creating some of these datasets? What's what's kind of the general approach here?
Yeah, I've done I've done both approaches. So I went out and collected primary data myself, involved in you know, surveyed students who do different types of work that way, but I also use large secondary data sets like the Maryland Longitudinal Data System. They have a data set that I've used for an IES grant that currently have looking at diversifying the Maryland teacher workforce. I've also used the National Center of Educational Statistics, they have an educational longitudinal study as more, you know, a national data set, so I've used kind of all the state, you know, national,state, and then also stuff that I've collected myself.
Wow, that really speaks to the incredible success that you've been able to leverage with this additional set of skills that you went back to acquire, which I mean, that's an incredible story, right. It's it's really cool that you're able to do that. And yeah, I think to any students that are listening I think that's that's an inspiring story to say, you know, you don't need to pigeonhole yourself and say, Oh, I've even gone through the Ph. D. program, but I'm just a methodologist who does this one specific method. There's always room to, again, chase that question and develop methods that are going to, you know, allow you to respond.
It's like an adventure, if I had to just for students to think through, like, if you don't have the skill set, especially when you finish up, then work with someone who does. So if I needed somebody with that, like, there's some my stats level goes to a certain point, and then like, I need a psychometrician or someone else who has a very detailed, you know, very thorough skill set. I bring them on board, and then you just make a team and it works like that. Like, you don't have to do and be everything yourself.
Yeah, that's that's such an important piece of advice. Because, you know, I think that this varies sometimes by discipline a little bit, right. But I think some disciplines tend to do this kind of lone, lone wolf approach. You kind of gotta be everyone and everything in your project. But I mean, I think that trend is more towards this idea of, of robust collaboration, because we can't do it all. I mean, we're specialists, right, you know, a specialist in theory, specialists in method, specialists in understanding specific approaches and, and studying certain populations. And so yeah, I mean, I think that that speaks to the, you know, the way in which you've been able to create this very robust approach to this research subject. So that's, that's, I think, fantastic insight. And again, students, or maybe even not just students, faculty who are listening, right, that's an inspiring kind of statement, I think. And in terms of inspiration, right, I want to talk a little bit about impact, right? So this is this is obviously research that can have a real, meaningful impact on the lived experience of students, and sort of just people in general. And so I want to ask a little bit about whether you've seen this research having effects on the way that pedagogy is working in real life? And if if so, that's awesome, right? But maybe, if not, in some cases, are there areas where maybe you'd still like to see these ideas implemented more effectively?
Yeah, so I, you know, I have another research area around diversifying the teacher workforce, and I've seen a lot of impact from that work. Just to give an example, I had written a study, because I was really interested in why there are not a lot of teachers of color in the profession. And a lot of research previously had looked at, like the teacher experience and their teacher education programs, or what happens to them when they get into schools. But I was saying that, you know, human resource officers who are the first line, if you will, in the school district, sometimes play a role, and no one was focusing on them. And so I studied HR officers to understand how did they get into their positions, and then how are they approaching diversity in the teacher workforce? And from that work, I found a number of things around the lack of professional development, just because the PD spaces for them through the it's called the Society of Human Resource Management, which is like their professional organization, was very business oriented, but didn't know anything about K through 12 schools, and then the K through 12 associations called ASPA. The American Association of School Personnel, they don't really do much about racial equity or anything. So it's that they had two spaces they can go to so but there was no place to really have these conversations. And so from that work, when I published two of those studies, I sent them back to the HR folks who participated, and then one school district used that study, to then refine their whole HR training, and they do this professional development for their staff now, based on the findings, so like, I've been able to see the work implemented that way. And then, you know, going into districts and helping them think through the hiring practices. I've done that myself as a consultant. And just that's the way that I've been able to kind of see hands on, like the changes in a district about how they approach hiring,
Wow, that really speaks again to the idea that institutions matter a lot in terms of these outcomes, right? And very, very surprising to think that you're able to uncover these spaces where, you know, maybe like DEI work is just not getting embedded at all, which, you know, we'd like to think maybe in 2021, or 22, or 23, that this is pretty prevalent. But yeah, there may be hidden corners that are nevertheless really impactful for the student experience where this is just not happening. So Wow. So how did you sort of uncover that, that link? How were you able to identify these specific stakeholders as kind of important than this, it was just kind of a process tracing approach?
I just always think through what's missing, you know. The conversation is still teacher centric, and I'm like, I get it, and we know a lot, but there's something else happening. And there was a particular study that I was leaning on that they had found that when black and white teachers had the same credentials, that black teachers were less likely to be hired in the district. And then when they were, you're more likely to be placed in a higher needs school with a lot of turnover. So I thought that particular study was interesting. And I was like, well, what's the reason for that? Oh, someone has to hire the teachers who's hiring? And when we talk about school principals, that's fine, but I think there's another step before them. And I've been a teacher. I used to be a K through 12 teacher so I had to think about my own experiences like oh, I talked to HR first. You interact with HR with any business through their website. So all these things are processes that weed people out. So you know, the application process, and then you get to talk to someone and I was saying HR is like usually the first step before you even gets to a school principal who may make the hiring decision at the end. And so that's what like that's missing, and no one's talking about that.
Yeah, I mean, I think that also speaks to the notion that sometimes with our research, having embodied that role in the past, right, having that sort of first hand experience actually can lead to some really fruitful sort of evidence for for research, because otherwise, it would be very hard to put those things together. And that's why we see maybe that gap in in the, in the research itself. So yeah, really, really fascinating stuff. And I'm really glad, it's really heartening to think that that's actually having an impact on districts and maybe changing some of these hiring practices, which sound, yeah, really not, not very helpful, from the perspective of both the teachers themselves who are going through these experiences and dealing with turnover and dealing with much more stressful work environments, clearly. And then also the students as well who are being poorly served by these imbalances and these inequities in terms of the actual right, teaching teaching profession. So yeah, huge, huge impacts here. And in terms of of further impact, I want to ask a little bit about kind of what's next for you in this study, study of adult learners, the study of other sort of facets of this ongoing puzzle.
Yes, I think for me, where I've kind of focused my work now is more on adult learners, but in like the Ph. D. process, because I'm very interested in how doc students navigate their doctoral programs and (Dr. Anson: me too) and how do they finish their, in particular I have a focus on the dissertation itself. And so how are students actually writing and defending their dissertation? So that's been the my kind of leaning towards. As a practitioner, I have an organization called Done Dissertation where I helped doc students across the country develop, I have a process that helps them finish the dissertation quickly. And so I'm just always interested in like, how are they doing it? And so I do the work as a practitioner, but I also study it now as well, just to see like, what's going on in the doc program and what gets students caught up at the dissertation phase where coursework that you're able to easily navigate, but the decision process seems to be looming over a lot of people's heads and a lot of people who have been stuck for a number of years, unfortunately.
Yeah, that resonates a lot with me, or somebody who's gone through this process as well. And, yeah, I mean, it, there's so many factors that are going into this, right, I mean, everything from advising, to the kinds of stipends and support that you're getting at various stages. And whether you're facing like, I mean, literally just financial insecurity at that stage, because sometimes students are taking more years than the number of, number of years that they have been given guaranteed funding, right? And so yeah, there's, there's a lot to unpack there. And I'm really excited to think about some of the work that you're gonna be able to produce in terms of studying this process, kind of with this, this microscope, right? Yeah, so before I let you go, I wanted to ask, we've already talked a little bit about advice for students, and I think that the advice you've already given has been really fantastic and something for me also to take, take in mind as I continue to do my own work. But I wanted to ask if you had any other advice for students who might be listening to the program that are hoping to go pro one day and the social sciences much like you have.
Yeah, I would just say if you can't get various experiences doing different types of research that way you have a, I think about like your toolkit, just like have a number of skills in your toolkit. They are things that you can pull from, your tools. I think that's really important. So definitely have a number of opportunities, so doing different things and just to give you all examples, And also use your research in different areas. So like when I was a doc student, at my program, we had an internship experience, and when I initially did it, I was like, Oh, I'll do something in education. But then I ended up working for the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans during the Obama administration, and that was like life changing, because I was able to see my research in a policy setting in that the policymakers know nothing about research, or actually what's happening in schools. So like, I was able to kind of have both experiences and be able to use that in that policy setting. So I always say like, I always tell students have a various, you know, opportunities in different areas, even if you might say, Hey, that's not a great fit. And I didn't think policy was gonna be a thing I enjoyed, but I had a classmate who was a legislative director for a congressman. And so he was like, come on the policy side, check this out, and you might, your skill set actually can be pretty use, you know, useful there. So that's a piece for students, you know. Practice your writing. I know, this is a big piece of this, how we communicate in the social sciences for the most part is like a through our written word. I think that's a big piece. If you don't have the skill set, and I didn't either when I was a student. Practice and develop, and you know, use our professors feedback to really improve as an academic writer. And then lastly, figure out ways to go beyond the ivory tower with your research. So a lot of the success I've been able to have is because I've done the research, so like when people look at the CV, they see all those things, but they're not actually going out and communicate that work. On social media and things I have a pretty large following there based on the research, but I think you have to communicate in all the places because the people you want to help oftentimes I'm not reading the academic journal. They're not going to Google Scholar. They're going to see, alright, what's happening on Twitter? what's on Instagram? what's on Tik Tok. And if you're there and your information is there, they're more likely to consume and really see you as the expert that you are.
And a perfect plug to suggest listening to podcasts, perhaps that focus on scholarly research as well. Fantastic advice. Dr. Goings, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today talking about your excellent research. We'll be sure also to put some of those links to, for example, the Done Dissertation program, all that in the show notes for interested listeners. Again, I thank you so much for your time and best wishes with the future of this research.
It's time for Campus Connections, a part of the podcast where we connect today's featured interviews to other work happening on UMBC's campus. And today our intern Alex has another great connection to share with us. I'm excited to hear about what he's discovered.
Thanks, Dr. Anson. This week's Campus Connection, we'll be taking a look at an article published in the Journal of Health Care for the Poor and Underserved in 1991. The title of this article is "Helping Gifted Black Males Succeed in Science," and it's written by none other than our previous UMBC President, Freeman A. Hrabowski. At the time he was the vice president of UMBC, but his work rings very true to this episode. In this article, Dr. Hrabowski discusses how there are fewer and fewer African American men in the sciences. He speaks about the various reasons that might be, including the roles parents play, and how high school teachers impact African American students. He goes on to speak about the Meyerhoff Scholars Program, which aims to address these concerns by allowing minorities a greater access to the sciences. That's all for this week's Campus Connection. Back to you Dr. Anson.
Thanks, as always, Alex, for your intrepid reporting. You know, I hope you enjoyed getting to learn about some great educational research happening right now at UMBC. I certainly feel inspired, and I hope you'll similarly feel inspired. So as always, keep questioning.
Retrieving the Social Sciences is a production of the UMBC Center for Social Science Scholarship. Our director is Dr. Christine Mallinson, our Associate Director is Dr. Felipe Filomeno, and our production intern is Alex Andrews. Our theme music was composed and recorded by D'Juan Moreland. Find out more about CS3 at socialscience.umbc.edu and make sure to follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, where you can find full video recordings of recent CS3 events. Until next time, keep questioning.
