Ep. 14: Going Global: Is it really about education or something more? The geopolitics of higher education, World Class Univerisities, and international student experiences.

7:40PM Jul 3, 2021

Speakers:

Shelli Ann Garland

Evgenia Likhovtseva

Keywords:

university

people

students

education

universities

learning

country

higher education

building

study

campus

trinity

phd

talking

world

world class universities

china

russia

terms

pandemic

Hello, and welcome to a dash of salt. I'm Dr. Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. Salt is an acronym for society and learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in shall we.

Welcome to a dash of salt. Today I'm joined by Dr. Evgenia Likhovtseva. Dr. Likhovtseva is a scholar practitioner working in the field of global higher education policy. She works for the Trinity College Dublin Global Relations Office and currently is developing her scholarly publications based on academic research projects concerning the geopolitics of higher education, internationalisation, and student recruitment and post COVID-19 higher education recovery. She was recently awarded her PhD for a doctoral thesis that she completed on higher education policy in BRICS nations at Trinity College Dublin and holds a master's degree in Public Policy and Management which she received jointly from the University of Brunei, Darussalam, and UC Berkeley. Welcome Evgenia. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast to talk about your research on World Class universities, BRICS nations, the geopolitics of higher education and international student recruitment.

Hi, Saturday, yes, it's a good

Saturday, cross cross countries and your home visiting.

Yeah, for the first time in more than half years of the pandemic. I'm just visiting home. Yeah.

Yeah, And normally, you would be actually either here in Ireland or in England. Is that correct? Yes, yeah, I live in London, but work remotely for Trinity in Dublin.

So, Evgenia, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background and about your programme of research,

how to begin was basically, my interest in higher education began in 2013, when I finished my undergrad, my first degree is philosophy. And I decided what I gonna do with it, and I decided to maybe just try public policy and to see what how it's gonna go. And I got a grant scholarship, I went to study in Brunei, and after that the United States for six months, and I got my degree in Public Policy, and they start looking at certain things related to education. And after that they apply for a PhD and my interest in actually global South, how other people leave, and the non European context and how education is going there. And what traditions Do they have, how these traditions relate to, let's say, European, historical traditions, and so on, I decided the I have to do something to do with it, and just start working on research related to so called World Class University. Basically, today, we know what is world class university because it's everywhere. If you just type it in Google, you see just 100 websites talking about Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, Trinity are going to advertiseTrinity. Basically, it's education to promote something culture of excellence, like in everything can research, in collaboration in education, learning everything. And it's become for me kind of a question. Okay. What are the universities have to do with it? It was just University, you know, the world class University how, do people study there? Where do they go? and how it relates to the non European context, let's say, and I choose a topic related again to the global South of BRICS countries. Have you heard about it? Brazil, Russia, China, South Africa, and India. It's more like a political alliance. But if you look at this other aspects, likeaspects of otherness, basically, it's different culture, different cultures to the Western world. And I start looking at their problem of development, how they develop their education, about what they do with it. Is it a They're going to go with it, and how they approach their higher education policies, and what different they trying to, let's say propose or achieve, let's say to European universities to American universities, basically, but different they can offer to the world of global higher education. It's all about differences and similarities. At this point, China, maybe just getting there yet they kind of backtrack to get back. This their tradition of Confucian learning, blend in this social in this Chinese characteristics. It's kind of an interesting mixture, but other countries, not there yet.

Did your own experiences that is, as an international student get you interested in this research? Or exactly what what was it that really

I think so. Because I remember, I was when I went to Brunei, it was absolutely different experience. I didn't expect what what can I learn? What can I leave there? What am I going to eat to house my daily routine, it's a basically completely different world to Russia. But it was very interesting in terms of you start noticing how people leave, what they do, and how they learn how the education education system works. And it got me thinking about that, while we all different, but also we are all similar. And yeah, I mean, when you when you study somewhere, as you know, is, you know, tell you also was international students, right? Recently, you kind of trying to be absorbed in the culture, but on the other hand, also try to give something to other cultures. And I think I grew up really, for that year in July in terms of my personal development. And after that, I went to United States for another six months, it's also a completely different story, for instance, to Russia. And I think I changed I think being an international student, changing your personality. But in order to achieve this results, you have to kind of try to get to know people try to get connected, try to understand others. And just be flexible about it. Just you need to learn you have to have the willpower for learning to do this kind of be open minded about it.

And how old were you the first time you went international for for your studies?

Think I was 24? Yeah, it was my 35th birthday in January, and arrived in December was 24. Yeah,

yeah. Because it's this, this quite a young age to really be thinking about one of the things that you said that really struck me was, you said, you know, going international is it's one thing to learn about the cultures and the people and the learning that you're getting for yourself, but also, what are you giving back to? And what are you contributing to, of your learning to those other countries? And I think that you know, that that's a really interesting perspective, especially at a young age like that, to think interculturally.

Yeah, that's true, because but you know, you have this certain feeling of expectations, because people want to know about Russia, let's say, nobody in runite the people don't know anything about Russia, part of Moscow Putin and it's very cold. I think I began noticing that. Well, I have to tell people talking to people, because they're just gonna say, Yeah, it is. That's it. And I would like them to know more about Russia and would like more about our culture, and how do we leave there and that cetera, and they can start building this idea of giving back. And it's kind of helped me to move communication to with other people.

So your research on geopolitics of higher education, internationalisation and student recruitment. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Sure, I'm now working in the Global Relations Office. In Trinity College, Dublin, I'm in kind of a mixture between analyst and researcher. And I'm trying to see what's trends are, at what direction means flows. Basically, after pandemic, we kind of live in an age of uncertainty. We don't know we just can speculate how it's going. It's a global recruitment gala been in a year or in six months because pandemics change everything and my role is just kind of to see and observe various trends, what's going on in the field of higher education and especially recruitment, what areas, let's say what regions potentially can be interesting for us. Let's say everyone knows now that Chinese kind of the dominant in terms of sending students abroad to the US, United Kingdom, obviously, and Australia, but after Brexit, basically only one speaking English country, English speaking country. And basically, it's kind of the get attraction from other students outside of you. Basically, this kind of things, it's my role to predict and analyse and see what's going on. But again, you never know. But then it changed everything. I like this work, because when you start looking at, again, various regions, for instance, man, that region, the Gulf region, basically that countries which potentially can be in like, let's say, five years, or 10 years time, might get the pace of economic development, kind of high economic development, and they might send send your students abroad. And they might become, I wouldn't say new China, but they might become kind of powerful, let's say and better developed and for universities might be kind of new, potential for recruitment. For instance, for now, we take not many students from Morocco come into study two aren't right. But maybe in five years time, in Moroccan government decided to invest in human capital. And for us, it's opportunity to recruit their students and kind of build this bridge between Ireland and Morocco, these kinds of things. I think, globalisation, it's not only about obviously recruitment, it's about building the relationships and trust and partnership, this other country. And when they go to get geopolitics of higher education, because higher education has a vital component of being that bridge, if you remember that during the Cold War, it was one of the most powerful tools in terms of spreading so called soft power, because Russia, so Soviet Union, sorry, actively invested in Africa, recruited students from Africa and coming to the Soviet Union to study why I would say United States actively recruited students from Latin America. And it was also distribution of interests in distribution of power, I would say, and the first university if I'm not mistaken, was um People's friendship University of Russia, was established in 1960s. And basically, it was and still is kind of a very international university. And for Soviet government, it was important that people from different countries, especially countries of influence, right, Asia, China, Africa, come in there to study, train and go back kind of ideology of the country and kind of bring that seeds back. That's the idea maybe of geopolitics. Now kind of there are different vibe about it, I would say. But region regionalization is very hot topic. Because the rest of them universities and networks, which are non traditional to, let's say, like World Class University concept, for instance, a European University in Florence, it's kind of university, but the Europe, kind of about the region, they're interested in what's going on in the region in the European region, and what's connected with it, for instance. And it's kind of a different university model, because it's based on investments of different countries that say, to their endowment. Another example, it's BRICS, BRICS, network University. Basically, it's a partnership between, they don't have physical body, but they have a partnership, and kind of exchange idea that ideas that, let's say, students from Russia, coming to China for a year, and from China to Brazil, and again, knowing that they wouldn't call the BRICS region. But if we think about this global south, we kind of say, yeah, it's a regional story, because it's about connection of these countries with each other, not only in political and economic sense, but most importantly, in cultural sense.

It's interesting that you're talking about that when you said about non traditional colleges and universities. Because one of the trends that I've been seeing over at least over the past two years here in Ireland, is that many non traditional, like you said not world class universities. So those schools would actually be taking satellite schools to like the the UAE or actually recruiting more of those students here. Is that something that that you would be more aware of? Or

there are a lot of companies already building abroad. I mean, it's the industry. If we think about higher education as an industry, we can see that there are University, a lot of universities as Western universities, which already have campuses abroad. For instance, one of the richest countries and let's say, well developed, is United Arab Emirates. And if you look at the United Arab Emirates, you have, you know, how many colleges 32 branch campuses there, in that smaller, only small country, already 33 32 universities have the oversight of the not only West, by the way, but also India, Lebanon, Sri Lanka, Russia has also like a campus there, basically go to the region and open their campuses. It's kind of one way of doing business. But another hand, there are universities that are not interested to open a campus abroad, because an idea is that student have to come there to get knowledge rather than the other way around. I would think about on the, through the kind of idea of business idea, let's say Oxford, right? They not interested in campus abroad, because people will come to Oxford a new way, because you're not only coming for knowledge you come in for environment people for the history, you want to kind of be the part of the Oxford history, let's say you want to breathe the same air, as people did. 400 years ago, you want to sit in this building, you want to touch these books and just walk the path. It's kind of more about story rather than story of being there. Rather than just get a degree from the prestigious university. For instance, in (sic), this business schools (sic) they go in stablish campus abroad, maybe the idea just to build a global network of people, if they think about campuses abroad, maybe we can think about this from the position of building the global network. Basically, you have set a few campuses, in China, in Dubai, in Saudi Arabia, in Africa, it's kind of a network of different of the same universities. But these different campuses and people can travel then can move between campuses, they can start learning about the catwalk all cultures start meeting each other. It's kind of a different vibe, I would say. But also it's a business model.

And what about building blended and online learning opportunities to open that up to other countries? I know, I know, I'm not sure if world class universities are looking at this yet. But I understand that, again, non traditional colleges and universities that wouldn't be part of the world class University sect, have been talking about a building and are in the process of building some blended and online learning opportunities to bring in international students where they can study in place from, you know, from their own country, you know, what is your idea of that?

I think in the beginning of pandemic, it was kind of very attractive idea. Because the university can reorient the resources, and just put everything online, it may be from a logistical point of view, it could be easy. But from the students point of view, it's kind of tricky, because a lot of let's say majority of them are self funded. And, again, people come in for the environment and for connections for networking for cultural experience for for the city for everything, which not directly related to higher education itself. But suddenly, you just taken it from them. And, and a lot of discussions now going on that online learning, maybe it's a way when the person already in the country, let's say you can come into Ireland, and you have a certain, like mix mixture between blending a bit in online and offline classes. Yeah, it can be a model, but when you just see it in Russia, or in China, or in Saudi Arabia, and doing all your classes online, and paying like 20,000 euro, it's a bit of a question. You don't see the people you don't talk to professors personally. You don't sit in the classrooms and you don't experience the student life fully. But you are charged so much. That is I find it unfair personally.

That's a very good point. You know, because at first my thought process would would be, oh, you know, it opens up sort of, you know, the opportunity to study at an International College and without having to pay a living expense and things like that. We know how expensive it is to live in Ireland, but you make a really good point because they are not there. not charging any less for that education, whether it be online or physically in person. And you're right, I didn't think about the fact that, you know, some subs, people may sit back and say, wait a second, you know, if I'm going to pay, like you said, 20,000, or whatever, a year to study at this school, I want to be physically part of it.

And also, actually University themselves, they don't want to reduce costs, because they have a lot of facilities, infrastructure, people, and logistics they have to manage, they are not ready to put prices down anyway, they're gonna go up, not down. And this is year from this we are talking about student centred education, but it's University centre education of the students, I don't think it's going to be future.

And I know back about 10 years ago in the US, so from my own experience, and perspective, anytime, on, you know, somebody did fully online learning from a college or university that was fully online, there was a stigma attached to that. So when you when, you know, I worked at a university, and when we were getting transcripts in from transfer students coming in, maybe they were wanting to go on to do their masters, or, you know, something like that, or they started their education fully online, there was there was a stigma attached to the fact that they had started their therapy, or gone to a college or university that was fully online, you know, that, that that was a reduced quality education, because it was delivered fully online. So I do believe myself that this is very much changing, that the face of blended and online learning is changing, and giving people more accessibility. But I think that the important key is that the idea of blended rather than fully online, you know, you have that ability to do some of your classes, in person, physically, but then you have the convenience, if you're maybe living in remote locations, where you, you know, you can do a lot of your learning online, and then maybe only have to travel to campus, you know, once a month or you know, something like that, rather than several times a week.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. And also, if you look at data that a lot of students, if you look at their preferences, for instance, some of them need to work from the US to Scandinavia, because in US, US, you have to start a line, and nobody knows for how long but in Scandinavia, let's say in Denmark, you can go physically there, because their COVID policy, maybe I don't know, more of a student friendly, and people start changing mindset, because well, I got to invest in my education anyway. And from Well, how can I do it? What the best option for me and actually study destinations now a bit shifting towards those countries, which policies are more humanitarian that kind of more open and more, then you can leave and physically be there, rather than online.

So let's go back, I have a question. Now, going back to about to the the one I was talking about stigmas, and the idea of, you know, when it's not that it's a stigma to go to Trinity, it's actually obviously very much an honour. But I want to I want to flip back to the world class universities. And, you know, that was actually one of the reasons why when I was accepted to Trinity, I thought, no matter what come hell or high water, I was going to make my way to, to Ireland to do my PhD at Trinity because it's Trinity. And it's world renowned. Right? So you were saying world class university? How do you think that world class universities influence processes of learning for students?

I think actually, I wanted to ask you questions, but you already answered. How did you choose to your city? Did you actually did you look at any rankings, or you just knew about Trinity?

Well, I had come to do a study abroad. Just interestingly, again, as part of my master's, I did a very brief Summer Study Abroad at Trinity came over for with one of my modules with one of my classes for my masters and absolutely fell in love with we were on the Trinity campus. We spoke to people from the School of Education, because obviously, my master's was in as was an education. And I just absolutely loved it. And there was something that you had said earlier about the idea of touching the bricks and feeling the books and being a part of, of that, and that's what I felt when I was here for my study abroad being on the campus at Trinity. And again, me being from a country that's very young, right, as far as you know, the United States. Being a very young country and not having this the infrastructure that so aged, and you know, so much history rich, deep and lengthy history, like that Trinity has had, you know, and so when I just absolutely fell in love with it, and when I went home, I, you know, was finishing up my master's, I thought, you know, in the US, one of the things is diversify your degrees. So I had already gotten my undergraduate, so my bachelor's degree and my master's at Ferris State University, I'm fabulous, you know, learning and absolutely love that, that experience and really high quality education. But like I said, I wanted to go on to do my PhD, and I was looking at diversifying my degree meant that I had to look somewhere else to go get that PhD, right. And because I was working at Ferris, one of the really amazing benefits, you know, how expensive education is in the US, absolutely, unbelievably expensive. And because I was an employee affairs, I was able to get my undergraduate and my master's degree paid for tuition free. So um, you know, me going on to do my PhD, I knew that I was going to be looking at an expense there to get my PhD. So I didn't really want to look to get my PhD somewhere in the US. Because I knew how expensive it was going to be. And I started looking, you know, again, I had to have the experience with Trinity. And I thought, I'm going to, you know, send a proposal there for my PhD, and just see where it goes. And, you know, everything fell into place, I was able to get a student fellowship from the school of education that paid for my tuition, so that I really needed to focus on just living and working and learning while I was here and not have to worry about where I was going to get the funding to pay for my tuition as well, which was amazing at Trinity to get, you know, to get at any type of fellowship, no matter how big or small. For me, it was it was a win win situation. And, and a no brainer. And so that's why I came over. But that was my reasoning was exactly what you had said earlier was because I wanted to be physically here on the campus. I wanted to be part of that. I wanted to get my PhD from that globally renowned University. Yeah, that answer your question?

Yeah, did because my kind of logic was very similar. I knew about Trinity before, because everyone kind of knew about Trinity. And I wanted to go there, too. And I didn't look at the university rankings. But you know, on the back of my mind, there was like, maybe check, just in case, what place they are in, like 2015. And after that, they start checking what every year is stuff looking at the position of Trinity in World University ranking rankings. And the problem is because rankings agencies are kind of a monopoly. Because there are like a few I mean, the globally known, like, times higher education and QoS, I call them monopolies because they do business. In the area, but they're nobody does really. And they have a lot of products for universities, offering different services related to work classes, from consulting, to marketing, to recruitment events, to kind of related consulting, related infrastructure, these kinds of things. And the problem is that any university today can be have a bit of world classness. I mean, if in 2000, let's say 10, it was just a big deal to be world class as a whole story, the whole university. Now you can have the highest percentage of international students be world class there are the most entrepreneurial university or have the best campus, I don't know if it's green flowers, or red flowers, or you can have the highest percentage of professors with Nobel prizes, and etc, etc. I like there are a lot of variance, a lot of directions where you can go world class, and it's not necessarily related with education, it could be related with whatever that is. And I find it very speculative. Because some that say, Be University a invest out of money and give a lot of scholarships for international students, just to be a part of that game. And for 2020, this university a can have this label from us. Look, we are the most international university in this country. Is it for class really, is it about education is about learning or it's about just branding, nice marketing. And this is a question and this agencies are growing, and they build in so many services. And now for instance, virtual campuses. It's a big deal. What campuses be here What visualisation is nicer. And it's another part of the I don't know the marketing stake that you have to create, create a nice Virtual Campus visually attractive, user friendly. And people in person go to your site and look always is breathing or going to go there. Is it about litigation, or it's about something else. But still, we have the world class label. And now scholars say, and I mean, maybe even there's an administrative community of universities, there are conversations about maybe we have to concentrate on regions on, let's say, problems of that certain regions where these universities built. There is this university located maybe it's not about workloads, it's about actually necessity of this university being in a certain place, what it can give to people to the region to the country. A lot of countries that say my research, I look at BRICS, Brazil, Russia, China and South Africans, just a reminder, India, basically, every government of this country has a policy and policy is copy and paste from university ranking strategy is all that reflects there, how many international students we need, what collaborations we do this year? What infrastructure Are we going to build? And is it about country's policy? Oh, it's about fit into the rankings. And the anchors are also tricky. And funny, because they start building regional rankings, you're not necessarily have to be the first in the world. But you can be first in BRICS, it's also good. And all first in Asia, authors within the younger universities, or you can be thirst in Southeast Asia or Latin America, basically, you can expand and expand and there is no end. And if you invest in their products, you just can be you can be potentially first in something. And it's pretty good and have the label.

Right. Yeah. And and, again, you know, you You said something, you touched on something that really spoke to me, and that was that idea of the importance of the, you know, whether whether it's world class University ranked or not, the importance of colleges and universities that and where they are physically placed their location, and how important they are to the communities, and to the people that live within those communities for jobs, for access to education. And so I think I think you're absolutely right in the fact that, you know, quality education is key, really, at the end of the day, whether you whether it's a world class class ranked University, or it's not listed as a world class ranked University, you know, there can be a very high quality education that comes out of these, these smaller colleges and universities that are situated in certain areas in the importance they are to their location that they're physically in, and you know, who lives in there and around there, and who is able to, to access that that learning because at the end of the day, learning should be accessible for anyone?

Yeah, yeah.

So you researched and taught in China for many, many months? And, you know, what did you experience? And what did you do? And what was it like?

Oh, that's a good question. Because I love China can talk about China a lot. And long. Basically, I went there as a research fellow, to Fudon Development Institute, the part of Fudon university in Shanghai, it's a big university with quite old history, it's very interesting place to be. And Shanghai itself, I think, one of my favourite cities in the world. I did. It was a part of my research related to China, I have to, because I was writing about World Class University policies. And I had to talk to people conduct a few interviews, potentially speak to policymakers and academics and just see how they approach in creation of workwise University policies there. I had to deliver a few lectures, I was lecturing for a while. And it was more about my research and what I'm doing. But for Chinese, for the department was very interesting in terms of how, what they can learn about other countries that say about Russia. And I tried to reorient my focus that say, for what they're going to be useful for them to, let's say they're interested in terms of how Russian approaches professional education, because this idea that maybe University is not only one way to educate people, and to invest more in professional educations, because in the Soviet time, professional schools are everywhere. It was one of the first steps to get a degree and after that, you can go to university or just go straight to the career and I think for Chinese The time it was in, at least my research, it was interesting what other countries do in their policy level? In terms of experience of teaching, I think teaching in Asia is kind of different than teaching in Europe because I people don't really ask me any questions, they kind of take it as it is. And sometimes it's difficult to challenge. But the best way to approach it is maybe to start ask questions. And just be like discussion. I did interviews with this professors with academics, to tell the truth and you don't speak language, when you have a translator, or person don't speak, let's say English, that well, in order to communicate certain difficult ideas, it's a bit of a tricky game, because it's all about understanding. It's all about kind of a language game. And let's say sometimes it wasn't just a circle, we go around and around and around, and you just cannot get any point from it. And first of all, let's say there is certain, let's say censorship, things that you cannot say at all. And it just, I wouldn't say my interviews was very useful, because I knew that already, I could read it before in every open source. And people just repeat the same mantra over again. That's why if you want to do really, kind of deep and meaningful conversations, I think person, at least have to speak maybe the same language or will be open to talk. Obviously, it was anonymously, but on the other hand, maybe when you talk in this room, university representatives and academics within University, everyone's conscious, and also, if they may know that they are the people know that I talked to them, I arranged interviews, and it's maybe monitored, and they may be in trouble. So after that, that's why it was very censored. But I mean, and I got it, actually, after a while I, some of my colleagues didn't understand that there was a guy from America, he came also for certain interviews, talk to people, and people didn't talk to him, or just repeat the same mantra all the time. And he asked me, like, why am I never gonna talk to me? And they said, because they can't, you can't, I mean, they might say something useful to you. And you might get to extract information, which you might think relevant to research. But don't expect that much. Because we live in a very particular environment in particular place, there. People not that free to express their thoughts, especially, it might go public, it might go to journal it might go, but they're at that person can be traced, even you say, participant a set, and they're going to publish it in international journal and is going to be read and Thurston troubles. And basically, that's his kind of vibe by got was interesting to be there, because it gives you other perspective, in terms of learning people invest a lot of their time in learning they, it's very competitive. Because China is a big country and to be, enrolled in university, you have to go through a lot of preparation and pass the GAO, it depends how well it depends on your scores and where you go. People ask me, like, what are you doing here, like what I did, and I said, I'm doing PhD, but I'm from Trinity College, Dublin. I'm a fellow here and then just for a few months to do my research, and they say why you should be very smart. I was like, Why? I mean, it's me. If you want a PhD, you can write a good proposal, and you may accept it, and you just have to worry about for it for a while and get things done. And they say no, it's not that easy. I have to like sit five exams, I just have to find the professor have to be accepted and just long story. And basically, when you say I'm doing PhD, it means you like, big deal, like a really big deal. But then that part of the world, it's like, wow, it's super, it's so cool. And there was all this good, feel proud.

Exactly. So you know, you've talked a little bit about your work at the global office with Trinity College. And, you know, what I'd like to hear a little bit more about are the kinds of things that students are expected to learn when they come to study abroad, whether formal or informal, what are some of the things that you know, there's an expectation, obviously, formally, that they're expected to learn but maybe even some of the informal learning that occurs as well.

When you do certain events, let's say recruiting events out of people, it's definitely about education, institution fees, it's about Dublin. It's about a country Ireland it's about language. It's about English language is it's about These are policies because for some people, for instance, for Russians education is can be a step to immigrate for some people, yes immigration story. For some people, it's a networking story, or maybe open horizons and work after that for global market, be part of the Google Facebook and kind of open the door to work in corporate environment. Basically, it's kind of a bridge. Not necessarily related on the education, there are obviously certain certainty demand for a catchy professional professionals. Let's say now, it's a data science big deal. Everyone is going for data science, everyone, not enough places already, but still people going for data science. It was computer science, obviously, engineering, by by by technological sector, and these kinds of things. Yeah, they're I expect people know their expectations, that is gonna be enrollment all the time. But are they actually schools and other programmes starting to expand their curriculum, still trying to fit something what is in demand with something that can be useful for your personal development as a human being it which I find, it's kind of remarkable, because you can get a degree in data science, but you have to grow, you have to build yourself as a personality. And it's kind of a lot of mixture going on. Now, in terms of rethinking curriculum, what we can incorporate to make our curriculum more diverse. And not only useful, education is not only about usefulness, it's about also pleasure, it's about growth, it's about being a better person, maybe it's a bit idealistic I don't know, do you think so?

Well, I mean, I think, you know, when anybody goes to study abroad, there's this, there's a certain level of idealism that comes along with it, you know, what, what are my expectations personally, to get out of being living and, you know, learning in a different culture, but then, you know, what is my ideal of, you know, that, you know, from my, from my experience, that world class, you know, university education, and, you know, in stepping away from it, yeah, I do think that I got a high quality education. You know, but but the informal learning that I received from living here, and being part of the Irish culture for the past, going on five years now, I'm in my fifth year, you know, those types of experiences, I think, set will set with me longer, and actually give me more of that global perspective, then, then, then what I did with my research in the PhD, could I have done the same type of research in any other country, country or in my own country? Absolutely. But I think for me, I was very, very profoundly impacted by my informal learning experiences of living and being part of, of the Irish culture here, you know, for me, but at the end of the day, when I, when my graduation came around, I was the first one to graduate during the pandemic. So I graduated sitting on my couch, listening to my name called off online. And so that whole idea that I had in my head of, you know, oh, my goodness, I'm going to stand in the square, and I'm going to throw my cap, and I'm gonna have this wonderful experience of, you know, being a PhD graduate, you know, off Trinity College, Dublin, I didn't get that. And so, you know, that was a big letdown. But again, looking at the whole experience, living here, learning here, and being here, you know, in in Ireland and being immersed in the Irish culture and becoming, you know, a part of so many Irish families and, you know, an even feeling Irish myself, you know, I know you're, you're laughing and smiling there. And I know that's because I hopefully it's okay for me to say this. But you know, you've now married an Irishman.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. become part of a big Irish family. Where the family?

Exactly, you know, so for me, the informal learning really far outweighed my formal learning for me.

Yeah. A lot of people they aren't interested in this not, again, not only about the possibility and courses in demand, it's about life too. Obviously, people asking about and they interested about housing, about prices, about how they get to make friends, they're gonna have their pint of Guinness. And yeah, it's all part of the story, of kind of global relations with maybe. In connections, we've been taught partnerships with talking to people talking about University. Tell them about our university.

Yeah. And their cultural immersion,

Yeah cultural immersion.

Yeah. So what are some of the challenges that you've seen over this past year that international students have had to face since the onset of the pandemic?

Oh, I think when it just began, in the understanding of this, I think that the totality of pandemic, and the realisation of it in I think, February 2020, people start talking about that seriously. A lot of students, teachers, I think, everywhere in the world, they just didn't realise that they have to go home. And a lot of countries are very brutal about it, like Australia, you have to go, that's it, there's no negotiation. And actually, it throws up the questions that, well, we just take all the students, they pay money to study here, but they don't have any protection. They don't have any, I wouldn't say respect, but they don't integrate fully in our community, they don't have security, and insurance in terms of like, to leave safely to be here and not rush to their homes and border can be closed, like in a day or two, you never know. And people lost a lot of money. And their families too. And it was I think it was a disaster. I think in Ireland, it was not that brutal, in comparison to other countries, like Australia again. But still, people experienced a lot of pressure uncertainty, and they lost money, and they didn't know what's gonna happen with their degrees of their future. And they back, they will they put back for back lock in their homes, and dormitories has to be closed, they were forced to leave, and it's difficult to rent, or maybe you have to go to rent, or you can talk to friends, because you have to serve as a lead all the time. It was a disaster. And the services you're providing wasn't fully it wasn't enough at all, it was very little done for the position of international students. Nothing really. And now, I think it should be kind of, they have to rethink the situation. Because how are we going to treat our students? Why do they take them for what purpose? And it's it's not only about, again, like getting your career, or your with education, they'll get yourself settled in life. It's about being part of this country, even for five years, even for three years. What what protection do they do they get from it. And I think even let's say governments who sent students to study abroad, or let's say, even Chinese governance, what they done this year, they advise advise people not to study abroad this year, because I think it was observed that I wouldn't say they're not welcomed, they are welcomed, but they not take care of well enough. And now the discussion going on about it that people are not integrated. They're not protected. They just this, we should stop treating them like cash cows, because it's wrong. It's really wrong.

Yeah, and, and, you know, the recovery, so I know that you have an interest in the post COVID-19 higher education recovery. And I'm sure that that's not only just from from the higher education or the institutional perspective, but also from the student experience perspective, and protecting the students and things like that. Can you tell me a little bit about what you think, going forward that looks like?

Oh, it's a good question. I actually wrote the paper about it in August 2020. But it's July now. 2021. I think it's gonna be out pretty soon, hopefully. And that time, I thought that I was talking about infrastructure that other facilities are going to be in use that say, from catering to dormitories, and maybe see, I didn't see I was talking about cities and ordinate spaces in urban environment that maybe University has to kind of reuse this building's facilities. Think about the kind of expansion of locations may be made spaces, like safer, bigger, or maybe take less students kind of talking from the perspective of open environment and the safety and usage of spaces. selves, but in terms of predictions, things changing very fast. And if last year we thought like nobody gonna come, no people still going abroad, but they start changing their destinations. As I said before, let's say let's say less people come into The US more people going to Scandinavia, there is a reorientation and rethink in terms of their to study. And actually, regional regionalization of education taking place faster and faster because some people prefer other students actually a lot of potential students prefer to study there they are, or studied in their countries, let's say, China, Chinese, right? They build a lot of universities, they have a lot of very, very strong high sector of higher education. And they also encourage their students to stay there. Just you can go from province A to province B, but just don't go abroad, you all suck actually in terms of regionalization. Another factor that students studying within their region, let's say Indians go to China or Thailand or to Japan, basically, original migration is going on now more than ever, and they go to our neighbours, basically. Or we go to countries which are safer, which has a better policy towards COVID. Or maybe handle this problem better, is a vital community, like parents, government bodies, sponsorships, not only about students anymore. It's becoming the complexity in totality of this.

Yeah

Evgenia, it has been such a pleasure talking to you, I really miss you. I miss having you here in Ireland, I miss seeing you on campus and being able to have the chats together and that kind of thing. And I do look forward to that day, you know, God willing, when we can do it again, someday, we'll actually see each other and not be, you know, talking virtually into microphones and earphones, and things like that through laptops. But any final parting words? before we say goodbye?

Yeah, I mean, it was a great discussion. It made me think and because we touched so many questions today, and it's kind of give you perspective, what to do next, to think deeper about maybe obvious problems, but then you start talking about it, expressing it, you think, yeah, I gotta do this and that, and maybe just settle certain perspectives for for the future trends for how long is gonna work in a month into in the year? We don't know, this is a problem. We don't know. But I hope we will, you're gonna be fine. You're gonna be fine. Thank you for just giving me this opportunity.

I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on a dash of salt, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Season with just the right touch of experts in education, and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to a dash of salt on pod bean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.