Welcome to the unconventional leadership podcast, a weekly podcast where we dive into the latest leadership news tips and strategies. I'm your host Mike supple Jr, co founder and CEO of the talent magnet Institute, best selling author, speaker, and podcaster. Through the insightful interviews with experts from various industries and backgrounds, we unpack the skills, traits and mindsets crucial for effective leadership in today's world. From embracing failure to leading with empathy, we uncover the unconventional strategies shaping the future of leadership. Whether you're a seasoned leader seeking to stay ahead of the curve or aspiring to develop the skills and insights to succeed. The unconventional leadership podcast has something for you. Join us each week as we challenge the status quo, and explore what it means to be an unconventional leader. Well welcome, everyone to this week's episode of the unconventional leadership podcast I have the distinct pleasure of interviewing today, Deb coviello, a trusted partner to C suite leaders, Deb brings over 30 years of experience and strategy in both quality and operational excellence to this discussion. She helped clients identify, assess and solve the issues that are preventing their businesses from growth. Deb it is a distinct pleasure to have you in our studio.
Mike, I am so grateful also for the opportunity to continue this conversation that we've had also in my podcast and hopefully bring some amazing insights to your audience as well.
Wonderful, wonderful. Well, everyone who's listening, Deb is the host of the drop in CEO podcast. And I had the pleasure of being a guest the maybe a year and a half or so ago. And it is a real honor, Deb to extend the invitation to have you join us over here. So I can learn from all of your great leadership insights and perspective. So thank you again for being a part of this.
Now so grateful as well. And again, you and I are avid content creators, the more we can do together who knows who we are lifting in that audience.
That's right. That's right. Well, Deb, I would love to get your perspective right now on some of the greatest challenges that you're hearing and seeing and experiencing of CEOs going through, or team members going through could be anyone in the org chart, like what's the what's the trends, as you see it with all the great organizations that you support.
So there is a common theme, I'm actually experiencing this now with a CEO that I'm supporting, there's a couple things I'd like to point out is there's a sense of loneliness. And also, they don't necessarily see the greatest opportunity when they come to a place of chaos or unfortunately, a place of crisis. When I work with a co leader, I will drop in and there will be an urgent business issue loss of customers, there may be rapid growth in sales may be a loss of a key member for which I can drop in and partner with them and either do the work or guide them. But as the relationship moves on, I actually find that they don't have people to talk to, they may not have a board of advisors, maybe they have a few coaches here and there. But they don't have somebody to whisper to and actually share how they're feeling and being open and transparent. And so I have the good fortune, while I drop into organizations and I work with them. I can also just listen to them, they can be themselves and be able to partner and help them to see what maybe they cannot see. So there's a big sense of loneliness for which I know you offer resources as well as AI to help those C suite leaders have those conversations and get them back on track. The other thing that I see as a trend is that there's so much in the weeds, I've got to get certain certain results, I've got to get to a particular sales quota. And they are laser focused using every bit of their talent and their team to be able to achieve those goals. But sometimes, they lack that sense of purpose. And maybe they have a mission, a vision that they discuss, but they can't necessarily see the greater opportunity. And so I always come in with what is going to give this leader peace of mind not necessarily the results. And so in this particular instance while I am working with them to improve their back office operations while they continue to focus on strategy and the top line sales. So there is an opportunity to elevate a high performing team that is agile and can respond to any changes in your sales funnel. And it's with that then I provide the guidance and the direction and elevating the skills of the people in the organization in addition to any process and movements are mitigating things, they can't necessarily see that for which people like you're you. And I can come in and help them see what the greater opportunity is. And the ultimate goal is peace of mind not only for them as a business owner, or C suite leader, as well as for their customers and focus a little bit less on the results. They are important. But what are those things that will ultimately get them to peace of line and sustainable results for them, their customers and their people?
Deb when you talk about the loneliness component, what do you think causes that? What is it share with us in our audience listening in today? Like what is it that creates that behavior, that feeling that emotion for those as you continue to grow in your career so that if individuals, let's say they're only supervising one person today, but in 15 years, they may aspire to be a president or Executive Director? What is it that creates that? And then are there things I can do as I grow in my career, to mitigate against that?
So I've had to think about that myself, because I, as a business owner, have also, you as well have had to think about those times of loneliness, Am I doing the right thing, there's an element of pride, because we've either built the baby or we've helped the baby grow up. And we've been very successful on our own, being able to create the buzz market, what we do be able to help clients, and we've been able to do it. And then we get to these junctures of, I'm not quite getting the results. And I know it's the long road, I have to keep staying true to the path that I have, I might not see the results necessarily. But it becomes lonely, because we have to have these strong shoulders to show to our teams or our resource of their work in that heat. Let's charge ahead. And it is hard to be able to then show those weaknesses. I'm not sure we're on the right path, I believe we're on the right path. But not being able to necessarily know when to ask for help. So there's a sense of pride that we kind of, I'd have to say get over. It's good to be confident what you're doing and the vision that you have. But also get over it a little bit because that strength of PRI could also be your detriment. Could be your detriment for which then you don't let people in. Which leads to my second point about the network and networking. Once we get into these roles of being a business owner C suite leader, yes, we start realizing the value of a network. But there are different levels of network. There's certainly those people that hey, I need a virtual assistant, I need a salesperson, or I need to in into seeing that client, you know somebody, that's the power of the traditional network. But I am some business owner, I'm starting to realize another key component are those boards of Board of Advisors, those people that could have been mentors, coaches that just have your back, they check in with you, and they sincerely care about you being successful. A C suite leader, a CEO absolutely needs that board of advisors, when you're navigating those places. I'm not sure how to get there, or I feel off course, they may be exactly the people to have this hard conversations, whether it's you, your leadership, the organization where you need to change course, you need that. And so I find that those things, the pride, and not having a board of advisors leads to a place of loneliness, insecurity, and we need to get those leaders out of that place.
Yeah, yeah. And then I know we've talked about and you share some great expertise around? How do I as an individual, take feedback, changing feedback, from fearful to frean? Can you share some perspective of what I can do as a leader as an individual trying to grow my career to really look at feedback is freeing and you know, life giving versus a fearful moment?
Yeah, you know, I think all of us out there at some point in our career has had that unfortunate performance review for which somebody gives you some feedback or information to say what and you waited till now to tell me or it was something so far in the distant past for which you're not performing in that particular way? People, I don't know what it is, it could be fear, or I often think we just don't provide people a framework to not only pass down feedback to people, whether it's positive or constructive. But I will also say the more important thing, if you're not in a culture, where people are freely giving you feedback, we as an individual need to know how to solicit feedback, and in a way that is positive and actionable. So I didn't create this but I learned it from somebody and I carry it forward when we want to give feedback there are three specific words that I feel are so important, and what the first one is, what should I continue to do. And when we talk about continue, it plays to one strengths, keep doing it, because that's why you are where you are. Another element the second word is start. What should I start doing? If you start doing this thing, it enhance Chances are what you are already doing well, because if you already have a superpower, focus, focus focus on elevating that either up or across the organization. And then the final word in terms of feedback is what should you change, not stop, but change. And change is one of those elements that if you don't change it, it could detract from what you're already doing well, so a case in point, a quick example, I had a person on my team, super subject matter expert. And they were doing really well, but especially well in a particular situation. And I asked if I could give them feedback. And they said, Yes, you can. I said, when you gave that topic, that presentation, you are the subject matter expert, you know, your stuff, well, I want you to continue to do that, because you are the go to person on that topic. And then what I said to them next actually blew them away. So what I need you to start doing to start doing a stand up when you're delivering that content. Now, in this time, you stood up, and you know what the impact was, people leaned into you, they were totally engaged with every word that you said. So please, even if you're delivering something from your office stand while you're delivering that content. And then the last piece of advice that I shared with them is that you might want to change this, I noticed when you were moving around that your hands were all over the place and not under control. Maybe consider holding a pen, or holding your jacket or something like that to ground you. So it doesn't detract from what you're doing well. And with that feedback, they shine, everything was actionable, everything was positive, and it was well received. And I can gratefully say that person soared from simply being on my team to being a sought out leader. So when giving feedback, the framework is what should one continue? What should start? And what should they change? And if your leaders don't do that, you as an individual trying to get ahead, you need to be able to then say, not, how am I doing? Because you're going to get crickets, you're going to get nothing, you're going to get deflection, you won't get what you need. But if you ask, Why should I continue, start and change that gives the leader something to work with, and provide you some feedback that you need. So there you go.
That's really great feedback. That's really great feedback. That's great insights for us to take into our mindset and our conversations. And I love your point that not every culture, not every team, not every supervisory boss leader knows how to is proactive and giving feedback, right? Some individuals may say, I've been in this job for 18 months, I haven't got a I haven't received any feedback. But I love your point of being able to as an individual, take that to the individual that you report to and ask for it in this way of continue, start and change. Wow.
Yeah. And I would love to just enriched that a little bit. Because even if you give somebody a framework, I actually gave this framework to a client that I was working with. So I understood if I was providing the value that they needed. And to that they said, Well, let me think about it. So that was a good indicator, it gave them something to think about. But then they came back and said, Just keep doing what you're doing. So I guess in essence, they said continue, and they didn't have anything to start doing and to change. Please accept the fact that sometimes organizations just don't know how to do it. But if they say keep going, okay, just keep going.
Now, walk me through, I know you've got some also some great insights on conflict. And all of us in life, I've learned as an individual who's went through my own professional development, that viewing feedback is a gift and conflict is a part of life. And the more we create, typically, if it's healthy conflict, the more we gained from it, the more we gained perspective, the more we gained learnings and insights that we didn't want to have. And ultimately, the outcomes get better. Right, you can create great outcomes by creating conflict and a little contention inside of a discussion. But how would you guide those learning that even the word conflict makes me you know, reserve and back out because I have bad experiences with it? How do you guide to view conflict as an opportunity?
So what I propose is that we start changing the words and the language and messaging around conflict, because conflict, as you say, has a negative connotation. And in my world, as a quality and operational excellence professional, we're always seeking to improve things or mitigate crises. And it's always a difference between expectation and what the current state is. It's always a gap. And if we think about this is how I see the world and this is how the other person sees the world. It's simply how can we get closer to call Closing the Gap so we can move forward together. So what I usually propose, and this is just a quick framework is, the first thing we need to do is yes, you're going to have butterflies, you're going to have anxiety. But when you step in the room and meet with the individual for what you want to have a conversation for moving things forward, you need to start with common ground. What is it that brings us together? What unites us in this effort in this organization in this business unit? It's usually nice to smooth that things over and start with what can we agree to? And once you start seeing the body language of that person saying, Yeah, I agree, this is important to the future, the business, then what you do is you just with kindness, this is what we're working on. This is what I see is the gap and seek confirmation of the person sees the other gap. And this is really an important step. Because sometimes, depending on culture perspective, the information our ecosystem, they're completely unique. And maybe they cross a little bit. If you're patient enough to see what is the gap and seek to understand you may learn things that you never realized why you have the conflict, and it may be nothing personal. And once you get clear on the gap, and you have those aha moments, then you can say, do you agree we need to move forward to a different state? Yes. And then what we do is we each take an action, how can we close the gap to get to the desired result. So that's a little bit of the framework is just common ground to smooth, slow things down, seek to understand the gap replace of curiosity, as I agree what the gap is, and then each take an action move forward. Everything is constructive. And moving forward. I will tell you in a particular situation, I had a very big conflict with a senior leader he was appear. And I had certain expectations on what they should be doing and behaving in the middle of a crisis that I was managing. And when I finally had the conversation, I started offices, do you you understand this is a significant issue. It's negatively impacting the customers for which the head Bob's up and down, you agreed on consensus? Yes, this is a problem. And then I would share with them I said I was would expect for you to be more active in the resolution of this issue. I'm leading it, but I need more of your voice. And they agreed. But then I asked why am I not seeing that more. And they said from where they came from a completely different culture. In that area, a different person handled the issue. And they were just simply needed to be in the background and consulted. And as soon as I had that moment of understanding that their background was completely different than mine culturally, then I realized that's the gap. And then I shared with them, I said, in order to get the desired result and get the people to rally around the problem. I said, I'll continue to lead and drive things. But I need you to jump in and enrich the conversation, tell people that it's important, for which then they agreed, yes, I can do that. And so with that understanding, and it was a terrible time from Hey, why weren't they behaving in a certain way, we came to this place of understanding and respect to which we should remain friends, even though we're not in the same organization, and so that we solve the issue, but we maintained a relationship. And that's the ultimate goal that we want, when we have these different conflicts, or opportunities to close gaps.
So Deb, as you saw, and felt that experience, the conflict that existed, what gave you the courage to have that conversation?
It was a last resort. I mean, honestly, these are times of desperation, like I need this person to help me live and work. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, their input was so important to the for the success of what we were trying to mitigate. So that became the higher urgency than the fear that I was feeling inside. And so I will tell you in probably, I had notes on my hand, or I had notes on my computer, to at least script out what I wanted to do, because when you're nervous, sometimes nervousness can take over you jumble your words, you may cower to a lesser state roll, your shoulders not appear strong and confident. But I live with the fact I need to get to some kind of resolution, because I'm a can do results person. And I needed to have a conversation to break through this.
Yeah, yeah. Within that courage, or in this case, maybe that sense of like, this is my last resort. There's a desperation there. But still, there are some people who would completely avoid that they would rather resign and leave the organization than to step into that level of conflict. And that's what we're to our audience. That's what we're trying to help. Many do. You referenced earlier about self care, we're all spending I mean, Deb and I talk about this often how much our content materials just trying to serve you the listener, write from a self care holistic perspective, and then give you the skills to help you conquer things that you're deep. We're all dealing with, we're all dealing with areas of disconnect and distortions, some would call it distortions. I've learned the lack of courage, the lack of being bold, even the lack of stepping into your own confidence, right, we're all given the opportunity for a reason. And stepping into our own shoes and saying, You know what, this is why I'm called to be here. This is what they pay me to do this is the role that people trust me to be in, is sometimes just having the courage.
So along with courage, we have to build that strength. And there's a couple of things that one needs to do in the background. And I do remember and again, I steal a few things from people that are, when they say something to me, I had a personal trainer one time, and I remember talking to them about being scared about giving a particular presentation. It was a new organization, I wasn't 100%, confident the materials. And he said something to me, that really struck me, he said, rather than thinking about possibly failure, think about the possibility of success. And when we shift our mindset of like, what are the opportunities if we are successful in this encounter in this conflict? or what have you? What are the opportunities, and that then builds the courage and the confidence to say, I might actually be successful. And I will tell you from personal experience, because asking for a raise, having a difficult conversation, having to tell your kids, they're going to be grounded or something like that all of this has this emotion. But what if you're successful, and I will tell you, I have been probably 75 to 80% successful I bet you people out there, if they went in with that mindset, will be less risk averse and willing to muster up the courage knowing they might actually be successful.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So again, if you need the courage, this is maybe listen to this episode a couple of times that say like, all right, I'm going in. I'm going in because people believe in you. I mean, as individuals, you wouldn't be on a team if someone didn't believe in you. Right. You're there for a reason.
Yeah. I mean, I was Yeah, I mean, this is, people just need to have a close knit network to so they can believe in themselves. I, I met with somebody yesterday, they were mentee of mine. And I could see this person amazingly talented. But there was this era of holding themselves back, their shoulders were caved in a little bit. And I just kept looking at that process that you've got all the right stuff you articulate, well, everything is done really, really well. They just didn't realize it themselves that they could already already start performing at the next higher level. So I would also say when you're trying to build that confidence, have that courage, just talking through with these things with trusted confidence, they may actually say you've got this, I've seen you perform this way in the past what's different now, talk to people don't do it alone.
So Deb, let's talk a little bit about developing people. And what what the lack of development of ourselves and others does to our career path and our organization's success. And then also, let's talk about, you know, the whole high performer definition of, you know, everybody wants to have quote, unquote, a players or high performers. But there's also some other perspective, I believe you bring on that. So let's talk a little bit about failing to develop people, what kind of impact can that have on me and my team.
So I appreciate that. I call this corporate destabilisation, I have also come up with a new terminology, leadership desert, because when you're a small and medium sized organization, you all grew up together for which everybody became a subject matter expert, everybody has their back, they rally around whenever there is an issue. And then the brakes go on and somebody goes out on disability. And when you have leaned on those subject matter experts, you may happen to be a flat organization, that's just the way you are. We don't have to have many layers, it is expensive. But when we fail to develop that next tier of people, because their heads down, they are your go to people, they are the ones that are cranking through things and doing the transactions. They are doing amazing work for what you keep them in a box. And then when you really need their knowledge. To me, they say can you step in and help us because this leader is going to be out for the next six weeks, then you've left that person at a loss. They don't know how to guide or lead teams develop these skills have the courage to say I need more resources more time or a deal with other organizations, you've done a disservice to the people. So not only are you at a loss for that leader that is no longer with you. But failure to start establishing some kind of succession planning, some cross training, you start to stabilize in the organization. One you might not be able to serve your customers. But then you start impacting the confidence of the people for which they felt wonderful when they were in their box but you ask them to come out of their box. Then they start losing their confidence not performing they start not showing up for work. And little by little, your customer is going to feel the pain. So now more than ever, even if it doesn't seem obvious, invest in the business invest in the people now, because when you least expect it, and don't throw the dice because planets line up when you least expect it, you're gonna need your people ready to step in and rally, should people move leave, etc. So, corporate destabilization, don't you be the poster child for that,
and then talking about the high performer component, because I know that, you know, there's in that development area, we need to be investing in everyone I like to use the analogy of, you know, if a Super Bowl winning team has 53 players, there's a lead, right, somebody's in that first spot. Somebody's in the 52nd spot. I know, Marcus Gardner, our president at Centennial talks about this a lot, that, you know, organizations, especially athletic teams, rank their talent, and are always investing in the lead the number one, number two, number three, number four, number five, but also number 5051 5253, and just varying ways to build into their strengths. But could you give us your perspective on the high performing conversation?
So as you get to know me, and your listeners get to know me, I always go against the status quo. And I asked the question, the hard question, why can't everybody be a high performer? Now, mind you, in your example, when it comes to ranking football people, they are already high performers, they are at the top of the game, but somebody has to be first. And somebody has to be last. But here's where the mindset shift is, is that you're measuring them all on the same ruler? Yes, maybe somebody can run faster than the next person than the next person, because you're only looking at the organization, one dimensionally. But might you look at all the talents and all the different skills you need on a team for which maybe that person is number 50, because they don't run as fast but because they become your star kicker. So that's how we need to look at the skills of the people that they can bring to an organization. Now, going back to my experience, I just disliked a lot. When HR on an annual basis says take your team and put them into the nine box, high performers here steady at ease in the middle. And the people you might start wanting to think about how do we exit them from the business? It's a way to put people in a box and it's so outdated. What we should be thinking is yes, we bring people to an organization, but do we bring them in with the mindset, okay, I'm going to get out of the gate, you're going to be the high performer, I'm going to put you into this job, but I'm only going to expect to be the study. And I need somebody to fill in this box. But I already know you're not going to be with me that long. Because I don't see much potential. We don't do that when we bring people into the organization. But why why? Why do we then expect people to put them in a box, I want leaders to flip the mindset a little bit and look at your entire team with the mindset that they all can be high performers. Now naturally, you're going to have those people that say, I'm going to do it, I'm going to take on the world, they're going to shine, they just have the stuff. And we need to continue to grow that because that may be your future leadership. But the middle people that your steady Eddie's you want them there. Sometimes we keep them there, because they're what's running the business. But as a leader, have you ever had time to ask them? What do you love about your job? What do you not like about your job? What would you prefer doing? And without asking these questions, we don't know what makes people tick. And you might find somebody says, I love this work. But I really love the training part. And then you say, Oh, my God, you know, this is the person I need to be training the next level people because if I don't start training all of this workforce, I'm growing at a rapid rate, I may not be ready for the next level of performance in the organization. So might you take that person, that subject matter expert, and have them become the trainer? And the next thing you know, you have assured your future? Because you know, your team is agile and ready. And that person then becomes a high performer. And it's the same thing for the person that's at the bottom? Did we forget about them? Did we just plug him into a role that needed to get done and never had a conversation? And ask them? What do you need to be successful? And sometimes you may find we have failed as organizations and it happens to onboard them or help them to understand the big picture. Maybe we didn't see the leadership that they were reporting to, you might find out that this person was never supported, given the tools to be successful and fill that gap and bring them into being a steady Eddy. And you will see that person's pride. They will shine through and wonder why did we never pay attention to them? If you get too big, people can fall through the crack. They leave the business you become destabilized. So I propose going with the mindset everybody can be a high performer and focus on what we can do to close the gaps in their skills so that you get highest performing team?
I love that. I love that. And Deb have you used any in your in the past? Is it all been one on one conversations? Have you used like I always call it voice of Team any type of sentiment or internal pulse technology to really like how else do you ask the questions of employees of what do you enjoy? What do you want to continue doing start doing change? Because it's, you know, how have you found the best the most effective way to ask employees those questions.
So it's interesting, you ask that because I find the same issue in leaders that have gotten to a point in their career where they feel stuck, and they actually don't know which way to go. And so this line of questioning helps them to gain clarity around what are they doing where they want to go? And so I often ask the thing, you know, what do you need to do? What do you need to do in order to do your job come to work every day, et cetera? And they'll just say, well, I need training and X, Y, and Z, or I need my equipment to operate as expected. But then you have to ask people, what do they really want to do? And they say, Well, I've been trying to get into that other organization, because I've been doing the same thing for the same time. And I know I could provide value and I just want to learn new things, to ask people what they want. And the last question I asked people is, well, what are you passionate about? Because you may be doing this now because you want to do it, or maybe a need to do it. But if you have the opportunity to pursue something you are passionate about? What would that be? And when you kind of when you have those distinctions about what I need to do and what I want to do versus what I'm passionate about, you start getting clear on where should I go? Or where can we leverage the talent. Now, if somebody can say, I only want to, I only need to do this, but can't say, but I really want to, I'm passionate about it, you're more than likely going to lose that employee or their energy, because you can only check one out of three. But if you can get somebody to say, well, I need this job, and I want to do this work, I think I'm valuable. It's not quite what I'm love, loving two out of three, they can sustain the roll for a couple years, but then eventually, they're going to get itchy again. They ultimately want to find people that are in something that they may need. They want to and they're passionate about. And that's one way to start having these conversations, to open it up and find out how can we elevate the people and give them what they need to be successful for themselves and for the business.
Great conversation, great conversation. Well, again, to our listeners, I want you to encourage you all, as you're hearing these great insights, to check out that of your podcast, the drop in CEO, how long have you been leading that podcast?
So February, it was three years we are 330 episodes into this journey. I love the conversation, not only with people and experts such as yourself, but also I have solo episodes for which I have a conversation direct with my audience, because I want to reach them, even if we're not in the same room. provide those insights but love, love, love, the creativity that comes with doing a podcast as well as meeting amazing people.
It is it's one of my brightest days of the week. Like I just love being on the microphone with great having great conversations. So Deb, how would you define the phrase unconventional leader? What is an unconventional leader to you?
So, in my mind, it's somebody that may be schooled in what are some key characteristics of good leadership, exhibiting those behaviors that should be you know, even just me showing up in a dress, blouse, and a suit jacket presents the persona of leadership. And that's what the books and that's what the coaches will tell you to do. That's a great starting point. But sometimes we get blinded by following here is the prescription with the things you need to be followed in order to be a successful leader. A leader at some point has to self reflect and say, what is the organization need? What do I need? What do I need to do differently in order to get the desired result? And I will tell you a quick story where I realized my unconventional leadership, I was in a rough spot in a particular leadership role we got together for our global annual meeting. And most people said in this next year, here's my strategy. And here are the three things I'm going to do to move the needle and everybody followed suit. And I was struggling because I was not getting the results. And I went to this global meeting from a reflect point of reflection. I said, What do I need to do differently as a leader? How do I need to show up for my team in order to get a different result and I had this aha moment that I was no longer the subject matter expert. I technically couldn't find the solutions. But my pursuit was really to unleash the potential of my people to remove the barriers, become a problem solver for my people, so that they could excel They get a different result. And so I did this unconventional presentation and leaving only a few minutes at the end. And with this new way of approaching leadership, then we will focus on X, Y, and Z. And the story goes on, I see and feel this every day I tell the story was that the leaders in the room. So that was very nice to hear. But you didn't spend enough time on the tactical things you were going to do. And I left that conversation deflated. But when I sat down with colleagues a little bit sollen, and we're having lunch, they said, We absolutely love what you said, we need more leaders like you to do things differently, otherwise, we're going to get the same result. So it's that courage to look inside and say, What do I need to do differently as a leader? And what do my people need as a leader and find the answers and enrich what you're already doing well, or change course. Because then you're not leading your people. So that's the unconventional leader is listening to what you need to do differently in order to get the desired outcome.
That's awesome. Well, Deb, thank you so much for joining us today. Would you share with our audience a little bit about your book?
Oh, yes, thank you, thank you for the opportunity. It was a passion project, the CEOs compass Your Guide to get back on track was written for the C suite leader when they are in a place where the environment changes, they're stuck, they're not getting the result. And I give them different compass points to consider what they should change in how they're running their business and how they lead in order to get back to true north. So I'm so grateful if you check it out, the CEOs, compass Your Guide to get back on track.
Wonderful. Well, Deb, thank you, again, for being in the studio with us today.
I am so grateful that we had this conversation was so easy to talk to you and you really, really pulled out from me some of the stories and topics I'm very passionate about, I believe a lot of leaders can take what they read in books. But I think there's great value in also listening to the experiences that both you have. And you've given me the opportunity to share with your audience. So thank you again, for a great opportunity in conversation, or Absolutely,
Devin, I thank all of the audience members that are gonna cross over those that are going to go subscribe and add your podcasts, maybe even listeners from yours that join us as we share this out in the world. And just everyone, please know that Deb and I both have the same desire, which is to serve you well to bring our knowledge and experiences and perspectives, right, because not everything you hear you're going to align with. It's great to have these perspectives. Deb I believe it's one of the reasons why you and I love podcasting so much in the work that we do.
And you've been a great host. You've made me feel quite comfortable here. So thank you again and keep going continue. All right,
everyone, we will look forward to connecting with you next week. Thank you for listening to the unconventional leadership podcast. We hope you gain valuable insights and inspiration from today's episode. We invite you to join us on this journey of exploration and discovery as we continue to uncover the unconventional approaches and strategies that are shaping the future of leadership. Stay tuned for our next episode. Don't forget to subscribe rate and review the unconventional leadership podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Remember, being an unconventional leader means embracing new ideas and strategies to drive growth and innovation. So keep pushing the boundaries and challenge the status quo. And we'll see you next time on the unconventional leadership podcast.
