Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.
Hello, everybody, we want to welcome you to the thoughtful counselor I am Dr. Michael Jones and I am so thankful to be here today with my guest, Dr. Derek Shepherd, have had a great opportunity know Dr. Shepherd for several years throughout his doctoral program. I look forward to being able to talk to him today about a topic I think is gonna be very interesting to many people. This time we will give you a little background on Dr. Shepherd ah, Derek Shepherd is an assistant professor at a University of Tennessee at Martin. He received his bachelor's degree from the University of Tennessee to Chattanooga, his master's degree from Tennessee Tech now, Tennessee Technological University, Dr. Counts education from university Tennessee in Knoxville. He raised her presents at state national and regional conferences as the Tennessee Counseling Association, the Southern Association of accounting education and supervision and American Counseling Association and has multiple peer reviewed journals published and author of a book chapter. His research interests include multiculturalism and counseling, social class awareness and skills related to counselor preparation and pedagogical practices in counselor education and supervision. So Dr. Shepherd, glad you're here today.
Thank you appreciate being here.
No problem whatsoever. Well, one things I used to do when I start the podcast off is always one of the first question I want to ask is, you just have a little bit about why you became a counselor that for me that's always interested in know that about all the people bring on.
Honestly, it was it was happening circumstance, honestly speaking, I'm I'm from a family that first generation and all this other stuff, right first generation didn't know what I was doing in undergrad. And I got my first degree in business administration marketing, with the hope and aspirations of becoming a advertising copywriter, which I know what it what it means now and what exactly that is. I'm one short one course short of having a minor in creative writing. Seriously, that serious? So I was like, Well, okay, I'll do that. But I got marketing, the state marketing is more sales, I guess, or something and just fiddling my way through the through life. And outside a lot of student loan debt after graduation. And I was like, You know what, I don't I just don't like this. So somehow, I found out about our own psychology, not really understanding what our psychology is. But I found out about it. And so I decided to apply to some IO psychology programs. Fire to me is that one in Oshkosh, Wisconsin never even heard of that city before. I just found it back in the day the library. So I found that I was like, Oh, I applied here. None of us have to me. I was like, okay, cool. And at the time, I was living and in Chattanooga, Tennessee, hanging with some folks that was older and they decided, hey, this university is offered minority fellowships. Like first of all, what's the minority fellowship? That's number one. So they explained that to me, I was like, okay, cool. So I applied to their MBA program, which meant I had to take the GMAT now. I didn't get in see the thing? Oh, I don't want to, well, what can I do with this IO psychology? And maybe I don't know where the NBA came in. But I was like, let me just try it. Why not? So I said, Okay, let me let me just apply to their insight program. Didn't know what that was about. But I applied they say yes, last week, but I still won't have my doctorate and I'll still not sure what that exactly was. I just noticed a hybrid of businesses high colleges for the most part. Definitely an understanding that to the level I do today. Okay, I'll I'll do that in, in the midst of all of that, I became a mentor, part time for this organization. And that changed my directory, total asset. You know, I like this one on one connection, I'm not sure what I can do with it, what I plan on doing with it. But I plan on taking the starfish approach versus mass approach. And so that's all Sandy, like, I have that one starfish, I throw him back into the ocean. So take that starfish approach. And so I got my degree. And I started working in fish and at this location, and I enjoyed it. Unfortunately, business went out of business. At which point I went to school for one year now, I've taught middle school for one year for special ed, behavioral kids that was isolated, I forgot the proper terminology right now. But I had them all in the room half a day for myself
learned a lot from that experience. And I didn't stay there for no more than a year because they were interested in me getting another Master's and I got my masters for free. So I'm already deep and do do debt for student loan debts. I was like, No, that ain't gonna happen. So I got this other job up back in Tennessee. And I really enjoyed working there. In terms of working at a as a friend of mine said at some times like you working at a key press and I was like, Yeah, let's look at prisons are really enjoyed it. And then something just caught me because I had a mentor and Master's program that said, you know, start talking about what does it mean to have a doctorate in What does his PhD need? Literally? What does it mean? When she and I sit for many hours? Sitting around drinking coffee, smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee we have the time. And the time, it's like well apply to the PhD program at Tennessee Knoxville twice, they said no, the first time clearly. Second time, they say yes. And I had a job in Knoxville at the time worked at the university and Swagelok and try to get my money, not degree free, hopefully again. So if you see a theme here, I'm rolling to the hawk and don't pay for school past my masters. I mean, past my bachelor's. So that's how the roundabout way I came into counseling into counseling, education.
I like that, I like that. And it's always, to me, it's always interesting how everybody has a different story of how they get to where they are today. And so that's how I like to go. I like where you put that. So our topic today is a little bit different. I would definitely say from some of the podcasts I've recorded to pass on, but I'm looking forward to talking to you about it. So the title of it is to all black folks with dreads for the cause. And so now we we've talked a little bit about this kind of prior to the kind of you know, here's this little bit tiny bit, but I'm kind of curious to know when this is a lyric from a song, you know, and so so tell me a little bit when you when you talk about are all black folks would dress for the cause. Give me a bit of understanding what you mean by that. And then what let's talk from there with the questions and everything.
Well, first of all, you have to ask, what is the cause? That's number one. Yeah. What is the cause? I'm not going to give you an answer. I'm going to say first of all start there was the calls. Because if you look at the calls, as a singular subject, which is to a certain degree, but there's disputes in our community, I guess you need to tell them I'm black. So this is under no, there's a dispute and what this came about was in a roundabout way, I was doing a focus group for an organization, kind of what I do, you know, in terms of investments I allowed to use for investments. So they said, Hey, you won't be part of a focus group. $250 amazon gift card. I'm like, I can give you an hour of my time for $250 That's a no brainer in my mind. So I did was I sit down and I was on Zoom. It was another African American male. That's also a doctor MD. He he made that known. And if you don't mean you know, like, I'm not big on hierarchical structure and titles and everything that just comes from our research interests who I am social class inside us like you know, Doctor blah, blah, blah. Okay, I guess I introduced myself of Jonestown, Dr. Derek Shepherd, you know how you like, okay. So what this institution was trying to look at was investing in the African American community through possibly more favorable term loan terms for home ownership, understand the the historical context of how African Americans have been marginalized in that particular sector. And they say, I guess they're saying we can do something about this. And so they were trying to do a focus with it inside, they put out some verbs, this may be some, what we're looking at, in terms of, you know, trying to advertise it. And so he saw it, and it specifically said, you know, marginalized communities in America. And so he decided that, you know, we were in America, this is one America, I pulled myself up from the Bootstrap. Nobody gave me nothing, essentially, that was his MO. I was like, oh, Lord Jesus Christ, like fit. Okay, so he don't know me. And so I was like, Hey, man, let me educate him a little bit. So my background is low, will opt for working class. My research interests is social class. So I understand I intertwine those in terms of money. A minority, you know, being black, being working class and what that means for me through a lens of hi navigate this world not understanding those social cues that may be part of her class or, or middle class. So outside this cat don't understand that I bought my first home through a program like this called, I don't know if he was born with a silver spoon or not. But it don't matter. You are marginalizing your own people, because you think everybody who that positive work ethic, pull themselves up by the bootstraps. We all had help. So I educated him. I gave him some stats and facts and figures in real time in terms of a recent company that the Department of Justice decided to have a hefty fine to because they were offering less than favorable interest rates for houses based on zip code, shall we say? And so he was he wasn't very pleased, based on his comments, but I don't care. So that gets back to your question of calls. What is, you know, aside, you got to look at calls for him. There's no calls calls. He basically said there's no such thing as discrimination in America. And he's never been discriminated against. Right? Oh, that's lovely. But is lifted that I'm sorry. So African American male. So what is the call, we need to start there? We're not a model.
And so, there are several things I'm hearing you say right now. So you know, you had this experience with this individual, you know, in talking about the cause, and so for him, there was not a cause, and therefore you you felt like there was a cause? So I guess I'm kind of curious. Do you feel like you're in 2024? Are we still in a place where we don't have an understanding of what this cause is? Or are we separated on that?
Oh, yeah, I will say so. I mean, this may be date myself, but that's fine. You remember back in the day, when Bill Cosby not for the stuff nowadays, he got in trouble with but way back when he was still very popular. He made the comment about stop buying your, your kids sneakers and invest in there. You remember that? Okay, you're nodding your head. Yeah.
Again, looking lands, look at his lands through a social class lands. So my family members didn't take cognizance of what he was saying. Why, you know, has he told us I believe, so again, what is the cause? I don't know.
So the so because being black is not a monolithic cause. Definitely, it's gonna look different depending on where you are, for lack of better term fall along this spectrum of blackness. But Is that Is that a fair statement?
I think that's a very fair statement. Yeah. No, culture is a monolith. I mean, that's there's there's just no culture fess up monolith. We all are based on individual experiences through various various identities.
So so what were you say have just from this is just from your experiences what thinking when it comes to what the cause has been? I guess if that did you've seen that you've been exposed to either personally or through other relationships and things that nature? What have been some of the calls that you've like have come up with whether you agree with them or not? And what do you feel like some of those causes have been
economic justice, social justice, economic justice is one or the African American community countability LGBTQ plus boasts rights within African American community. I mean, you can look at it is in terms of
way to defeat an enemy is to keep them divided.
So the more more causes that are out there,
not the more causes, the more divisions is within the division. Okay, the more division within the divisions he's gonna have, like, if you look at ACA, in the breakup of ACA, with Erica, and Aska, and I got somebody else on the table that may go away soon to maybe another five or 10 years, but we spoke about like, Nah, they didn't get their shit together, being ACA, oh, my, it's just vision they're in because there's a vision. People like stability, the human mind is very, you know, I was reading a little bit on neuroscience, and I'm not an expert. So I want that to be perfect, but the human mind is lazy. And so we like the human mind likes to categorize. So it makes it easy for human mind to categorize. But it also makes it easy for those that are aware, to be like, you know, there's a way to manipulate, manipulate, but to use this to your advantage. You can categorize something, you can stereotype something, or someone you can authorize them, instead of getting that individual, nor that individual. Does that make sense? We don't take a lot of time know each other. So many people, I don't know.
What would you say is like there's a motivation behind that? Because like, I definitely agree with you that you know, that it is easier to not invest in those individual things, but what we say as a call behind that.
This is human beings. And it's, I don't know, his his I literally don't know, that's something I haven't literally thought thought about. And I don't know, I mean, it's throughout time, you know, I'm not a historian, I'm not a theologian. You know, I look at the Bible and all this other stuff. And I'm like, Damn, we never got along. Okay, so I don't know. We're just we are being human beings, I guess.
How would you go about saying that? Look, no one. This is ideology that you were talking about here? How do you see that affecting counseling and counseling? In particular, when especially when we talk about black men not being a monolith? Without being division things that nature? How does how does that affect us as counselors in particular?
I will say so the pitting counselors, let's look at how it affects counselors, and how we treat clients. Okay, I'm good with that. I teach our multicultural course, at the University I met and everything and you know, it's asynchronous online. And my one of my things is to make sure I try to infuse that no culture as a monolith and getting to know that individual. So we said that this individual that I talked about that beginning listening in terms of he's a probably that did not probably definitely have more money than I do black man. And he's probably not for the Colts, whatever that is. But he's struggling mentally. He comes into the office and you try to talk to him about the reason you're struggling is because of the discrimination you're facing. That can be a reason for it, even though he may have told you so. And when he said that, it's like, I don't know what this discrimination thing is. I was like, Well, you just ruptured that relationship. that may personally have just walked out the door. Does that make sense?
No, it doesn't make sense. Because if you're proposing something to them that they don't believe in, then it's kind of hard to build rapport with somebody that way. And I'm definitely
not saying that there is not discrimination. I didn't a member of it from black and white. I said, well, it Asian and whatever. I mean, maybe it was called my color, maybe it was called, I don't know, they just don't like me. But who knows. But, you know, know that person first. And that's to the core of who we are. As counselors, what I feel, we need to have that relationship net with that client. Even though you, you, you look at the historical you look at everything that's going on in terms of the society, it's not just by no stretch of imagination, you still have to say, Okay, this is who this person is. Sometimes I can get lost in a week sometimes. And it's in when we train our future counselors.
I want it to me is interesting. And I know we don't really talk about this in counseling by No, this is talks. It's talked about, obviously, quite a bit among the black community, for example, you know, and we think colorism is one of the things that comes up quite a bit in counseling, no, no, a few people who do a lot of research and stuff in that area. But outside of colorism, in the black community are some things we don't really talk about that really, as for lack of a better term, define your blackness to a certain extent,
what are you talking about,
I'll throw a couple of things that I'm thinking about. And I'm gonna go kind of curious if if you've had these experiences before, or if maybe I'm way off topic here. You know, you don't know, for example, there are the Greek in the traditional African American, Greek attorneys and sorority things of that nature. And they all do a lot of great work. But sometimes it can be like a lack of breakdown, or, like a line drawn in the sand where there's a separation there, because, you know, you you're not a part of of that. So, that could be one way of defining blackness for some people. Another thing could be, you know, whether you went to a PWI for as, as a as a person, or you went to an HBCU, once again, very pro HBCU, but, but have not been the you So, but once again, that can be one of those lines of demarcation, okay? That, okay? That means that you may be perceived to be black or everything because of those certain things, and then also the relationships and stuff that you are, that you're in. So, you know, if someone whether it's a black male or a black female, and they end up marrying or dating outside of the race, you know, that's, that kind of messes up with the, for lack of a better turn over their black score. Good. And so it is interesting that that, that there are there are certain things that are sometimes our news, as I guess, markers, for lack of a better term of blackness. And so I'm kind of curious, like, what your thoughts are on that.
There are definitely markers 100%. And it was funny. I want to make sure I get this correct. I really do.
I read this dissertation recently about colorism and counselor education. And I did. I didn't read it through a scholar lens. But this quote here really speaks to was a poem or nursery rhyme that I've heard before. And I was like, I forgot about this. If you're black, stay black. Stay back, excuse me rounds to ground. If you're yellow, you're mellow. If you're white, you're alright. So if you're white, you're alright. So there's a the color as we talked about, yeah. Sigh What does it mean? The Greek
I had a co worker that was a former coworker Excuse me. That was he was African. So let's get this straight. He was African. Cool guy, real that guy. And I like talking to people. Like let me understand not you're the expert, but I want to understand your point of view. What does All this means that he and I had some conversation, it's like, Well, is it true that some boats from Africa will say that African Americans aren't true Africans? Yes, I had conversation with someone recently as of yesterday about that. Their son is in a military, he talks. I don't know proper English or whatever. And he's saying his son, he's black, or African American, whatever, right. And he was saying his son was getting lack of better word, you know, getting talked about how you ain't talking to black. Now, this gentleman, he's working on his doctorate, too. And his wife has a bachelor's, at least a bachelor's without an AP Psych. You know, his son is in the military. It's like, when you ain't talking, like I guess from the other people that's in the military. This bull hack, I guess, it's like, you're not talking like You're not dressed in black think a call. So why do we do it? That we ain't own ones, by the way. So let's make that point very, very clear in this podcast, and I hope that is that does not get edited out? If you do we'll have a conversation. Once Yes, we are not the only ones. Ah, I, I was I've been fortunate enough in my life to work with all different folks in various capacities, you know, in terms of racial, ethnic, etc. And, and always take the approach of curiosity, not trying to say your this verbose site, what does it mean for you to be as it's and how they intertwine? Just tell me and of course, during those conversations, a more system, his looks, holistic approach comes back. And things are talked about in terms of you ever had some students and former life that were of a particular from a particular region in Asia, Asia, sorry, particular region in Asia, and how their particular country and region in Asia, I'm trying to make it as good as possible, wasn't exactly looked at, favorably by other countries and regions. In that shot, they totally as I were hearing, if you're from over there, they you know, from this country, they consider this like, Oh, really psyche? Yeah. And that was their perspective. That's how they looked at it. I have not done research on it. I don't know. But if that's how they feel, that they had a complaints because of where they were from versus other agents, it goes to the overall question of why, why do we continuously try to find ways to separate ourselves into five reasons that we shouldn't like a person? Still, you know, and yeah, I mean, I Pollyanna, I guess, in terms of, can we, you know, let me know the person first. You know, like you Michael, you know, or I remember the first time I met you, you know that you know not? You may see me at a conference very briefly. Very, very people know, me, it's like him before he's go, he didn't does his thing. He's, he's going back to his hotel room, watching TV working. But you know, you use it, you know, here it is, you know, I ain't been in communication. He said, Hey, if you ever need to talk about navigating, let me know. You're standing against the wall. It was at CSIS in Birmingham, if I'm recalling correctly, ses is in Birmingham, standing against a pillar. This slide my first year in the doctorial program, already had a rough experience, cause I don't know nothing about this world and use it that that hey, you know, how are you doing? Because I was drowning out in the wild stolen. And there are other African Americans there. You know, it's like a meet and greet kind of, you know, free it was free food. That's why I was there. So as I get free food, I'm going on a budget. And as I you know, Algis a wallflower in the room, I wasn't that extroverted person that's out there. But you took the time say hey, here it is, hey, you know. So not saying others have not done that. But I will say that if we were all the same, everybody I would have reached out to everybody else. Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, it doesn't make sense. And I think it is, it can be very easy to get caught up in certain. We're I think we're all multifaceted in different things. And we have different parts of ourselves are important to the different times, you know, so much sometimes sometimes we get so caught up in those aspects of us, that it gets us in a situation where we don't, we don't end up reaching out, we don't end up creating community. And then we don't, and we just, we simply don't bring other people in to be a part of, for lack of better term, whatever the cause is. And that, to me, that becomes very problematic, because it's like, how do you move forward? How do you get away from some of the division? If you don't really know the other person? You're talking to you? So like, I know you for a long time, and I'm pretty sure if we sit down more than five minutes, we could find something we don't agree on. But, but it's not necessarily about whether or not we agree on something or nice about do we provide a space for community for each other, and not stepping into that space? Where it's like, okay, well, I can spend time with Dr. Shepherd here, because he meets the certain qualifications of blackness, if that makes any sense. First. I just want to spend time with him and get to know you know, just because
Exactly, I mean, and for me, what I like about this profession at its core, is sometimes people forget about it. It's about the relationship. I guess let me back up. Like, it was interesting, like sales and sales, hated it. But there was one aspect of sales I enjoyed the relationship building. I wasn't about that final number. I was about learning who you are in building that relate relationship. It was this gentleman when I was in believe this or not, I'm settling Bill South mobility syllables in a kiosk at Walmart. During college, and a little bit after college. In this older gentleman. Why? You know, use dirt well, he has some dirty jokes, but he was hilarious. I mean, he came back for like six months by what is his cell phone now remember, this is early, you know, for 100 minutes a calls you like 19 bucks. type of service. So Not today, not today. So like a team, you know, 100 100 minutes, my team builds right now you're talking about Pittsburgh cities. So what is this? What is that outside? Well, this is what it is what it does and everything? I do I need one? I don't know. Let's talk about it. Because I never really Hale why you guys spend as much money you you're at this counter when Walmart used to have a little bakery and sit down and sit there and they used to gather like old folks how they Hotdogs for lunch and the biscuits for breakfast. All kinds of little cool. So what a he just came seems like it you know, kind of baffling from yours. Hey, why he's like, Well, you never pressured me to buy iPhone. And you said, if I do get it, I told you you get you get the cheapest one, you pay that bill and you monitor your minutes and this is how you do it. He bought the phone for me. Was that a best salesman? Probably not. But I always had my customers best interests at heart. And so for meals, almost seeming kind of natural for the counseling process and going into counseling.
So I know I'm just kind of thinking about this off the top my head here. So this kind of thing like the example you had a about your interactions with with a customer and we get in a bind that phone and things from you. How do we transfer that type of experience into the counseling room when I you know, they the client walks in, I get their name, their intake paperwork, I just get a little bit of information about them, we're doing the intake, how do I start that process with them so that I can can really actually understand them at that personal level that we really want to build that relationship with them even though there's gonna be some differences there and and a cutting is more. This is more of a universal thing. I'm kind of several times away from the topic a little bit but I want to help bring it back in a second. But you're talking about a lot about relationships or how do we you you go about that no building those less your people especially when they are different from you and may have different values Billy's just a little bit different everything
I'm not the judge number one touches, I literally keep it right there to watch him. But when it comes to that, I'm like to when it comes to being in that room with that client, I'm not the judge. That's something hard to do, because we kind of naturally do it. Unfortunately, you know what I mean? We're just just naturally, you know, naturally judge.
And I take the, when people are a nice circle, inner circle, if I can, he's, he's really he's, he's very knowledgeable about a lot of stuff, in his a lot of knowledge about a little bit stuff and turn it around research interests. But you know, we've had conversations like, how did you go about this? I don't spend a lot of time on social media read. And when I am on the internet, I'm not on the tick tock, or whatever, you know, you'll probably find me on CNBC. So I stay curious. So I don't judge I don't know anything. And not knowing everything I stay curious about just life. Just here's life. And Ashley. This is one of the podcasts I told you about. He has little, I'm not sure you've subscribed, you really need to subscribe to the podcast and his Saturday newsletter said, and William copper. I don't know he has this little saying it's somebody from years ago, William copper and said knowledge is proud that he has learned so much. Wisdom is humble that he knows not more. And like, I don't know who that guy William copper is I looked him up. I briefly looked at it. I was like, yeah, so I stay curious. I know some stuff. And I'm happy. I know some stuff. But I'm wise enough to know, I don't know everything. And so when you sit down with that con, you may know techniques, you may know, theories, you may know, racial identity development, but you don't know do.
So maybe be a little bit more specific. So that's, that speaks specifically to looking at Black clients for a second, you know, now, I'm African American, male, yours? Well, I would definitely say You know, this from the from, from, from my understanding of you, it's like we had some some similar upbringings and things that nature, which I would have enjoyed that part. But you know, when you as a, as a black male clinician, specifically, you are going to have people who come into the room who no one wants to be in not knowing that being black is a monolith. And it's not it's not a monolith. And so there's, there's, there's a wide range of people who can come in there from that population. Is there any particular way that you try to gauge where people are to be able to engage? Because like, it's good, I'd have to take that because what I'm thinking about is okay, so if, if we're looking at blackness specific, and it can be so broad range, I mean, obviously, there's not a scale or scale we can use right like that. But what like, what, what do you do to try to measure that or to figure out where is this person? On this range of blackness? And also, you know, yeah, yeah. How do you do that? Probably, it's probably easiest, most avoid mass like question.
I don't I don't try to figure out where they are. I let them kill me where they are. I just listened. I take a risk. This entire podcast is a risk, but be real. And I will ask for clarifications, like okay, well, what's going on this, this is what you're saying? And I have that relationship there. And I want to make sure they understand I'm not judging you. This is where you're I just need to know so I can help you better I need to make sure I hear understand what you're saying. So it's not like I'm trying to judge by let them I let them tell me, you know, it was I just you know, sometimes it's pretty obvious. I've had, you know, Have you any blank? Or blank? Me? I've had people tell me, it's like, okay, like goo. Fie. I'm not sure what that mean. But okay, cool. Cuz I've never been the one I guess to your, the most jury, you're gonna find on me as a Marine. in a, in a, in a watch, you know and how great the great orange one said, you know they love me now because I have this, this his he's getting discriminated against cars and he had the T shirts he's selling and in those tennis shoes and all this other stuff like. So I'm not saying that's what black folks won't. But that's the impression that unfortunately, not everyone, but some people clearly have about our culture that this is how you connect. And this is the model, even some within our culture may believe that. Not everyone. Remember that? So you have no the individual, but some maybe like, you know, and it's been mentioned, like, Why didn't I've never owned a pair of Jordans ever? Younger couldn't afford them. Can't afford them. I can't afford them now. But I'm like, I prefer to put my money elsewhere in terms of something more productive for me and my family than buying a pair of Jordans. Now there's a culture around that. There's an entire industry in terms of investments or, you know, collectibles. And so I'm like, okay, cool. But that's not what speaks to me. What speaks to me is comic books. So I will, I'm not going to spend $200 won't come up, but I will buy my current books for entertainment and enjoyment. I'm not going to buy a pair of shoes, because for me shoes are utility. And that's how I was raised in terms of working class where I came from, it wasn't a luxury, it was utility, so that has imprinted upon me to this day where best shoes, clothes, those are utilities, cars, you know, that's utility, that's something that is a purpose behind other than to make a statement that says who I am. That that's not what it's about. That's just me, though. I mean, so Oh, no. Good question.
Sounds like you tell my social class a little bit. Yeah, that's
just that's just you know, for me, it's utilities these are things are these things are just utilities, you know, my clothes on my back. They, they're their utilities, they're not to say, you know, they they do represent who I am when you look at me. But you can make an assumption of what is actually monetarily behind what you see in that assumption, baby, well
let me make sure I'm understanding picking up what you're putting down here. You know, you said that because of what certain individuals may wear you know, things that you you call utilities that can be perceptions connected to the individual because of the way they dress or make sure I'm not misquoting you there.
Oh, no, no, yeah, that's that's exactly that's right there there's something called cultural capital in you have to have based on social class dress act a certain way to fit in his terms this that x if you look at social class through a lens of Pierre Bourdieu like there are certain things that kind of fit within the mold do I do some of it without it out for example, my lawn in my yard that's I take care of it. Don't spend a ton of money but for me that's my self care. So I don't want my lawn to look good. Everybody else lawn for the most part in my neighborhood looks good. Versus if I were to go to the other quote unquote other side of the tracks my loan would stick out because it will look good while everybody else loan does and so for me in my economic social class of neighborhood in terms of you look at it's like he's been in the mold of what we want. However, the lawn is the essential college littlest part of my self care. Love it, I can spend hours out there and just enjoying it and getting relief. If you live in, you know, rural America, there are certain social class things that people may say you have a new f150 or whatever, right. And that being said, you know, actually, the pickup truck line help transcend it from rural America to urban America. I don't know when that happened but it has happened and it has transcended into African American urban in terms of like having not the needle truck but like the 50 6070 $80,000 pickup trucks of having all this insight you know so commercial out there we you know this guy drives up into Toyota Tundra black guy sits down, you know, with his friends like oh, it's a nice truck shot. I've arrived like it was like $80,000 truck and for me he is displaying his social class and what it means for him through a pickup truck and having an $80,000 nice pickup truck. For me though. I remember my granddad his pickup truck were at eight I'm not sure you remember they had stick sales on the shaft is dead in the ground. Oh,
yeah. You did a fall on the floor of the House on the stairwell. Yeah, yes, I remember Yes. Lately utility
probably paid more than $1,000 for and so that's why we will pick up truck. Because of my background, I met Lance. And him having his input of growing up in rural America. Ilan grew up in Birmingham urban, he had an input on me in terms of his background would be a rural American that so that's that's the status you fit in versus nowadays. You know, the Tesla you know, when I go to rural parts of where I live, you don't see a lot of Tesla's but if I were to go to urban parts of where I live the state I live in there are a ton of Tesla's cars that's it. You know, of course there's also you know, the availability of charging stations all this other stuff, but you still don't even see a lot of hybrids I look at stuff like that and look for stuff like that you can see a lot of hybrids say a lot of gasoline versus urban and so yeah, you're right I am saying that you you can judge a book by its cover based on what you perceive will be their social class but if you've ever read The Millionaire Next Door book that may open your ass
so whatever your experience has been, when you kind of think about since you get we social class it's kind of on my mind right now. Whatever your experience has been know when we when we talk about are all black folks but dress for the calls you know once again this this this this wide variety of blackness that is there. And you know, we talked a little bit about there being like certain things that kind of come up to to divide how have you seen social class and if you if you have seen it we use his way as as a way to to divide people if you've seen that and we're not going to I mean to divide people people looking at as a as a marker of for lack of a better term.
Or you trying to talk you're asking a very broad question there. Are you talking still about the particular racial group African Americans in terms of social class okay, I didn't want to make sure about that
don't know talk a little bit more I got my thoughts and I tried to entrap dinos stretch imagination, I think I know what you're asking I'm not sure
Well, I mean, when when no one is when we talk about this this topic of how social class and I know a lot of the stuff I've learned from about social classes come from you and Dr. Jones and Dr. Cook and and from from a theory of yarn and understanding it from from that perspective. But from I guess from Mike's from from from my reading I've done from it and also reading some of the research and things like that it seems like that there can be instances where if my social class does not match up with your social class the way and the way I view it just sometimes we can we end up I'll use the example you use earlier but the one guy who had never seen discrimination was whatsoever in from his from his perspective All right. I'm assuming y'all came from different social classes I'm that that may be a wrong assumption might be right assumption.
I did that may I have no idea what his background was? I know what his background was at the time, cause we had to disclose kind of like, yeah, you know, stuff. So
but Oh, I'm just wondering, sometimes I've just when we think about social class from that perspective it, can it be used as one of those markers again, where it's like, well, you're unless you were like a project, unless you've gone through the struggle, then then then you don't really understand like, do you necessarily have to go through a struggle to understand those type of things?
I think what you're asking is, when you say Mr. Hirsh, we talked about briefly in terms of ways to differentiate each other, made to look at each other differently based on what you think a person needs to look like, be like EQ. So now you're asking in terms of that being specifically with social class and African Americans? Okay. Well, no, no, that's the easy cop out out these answers. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah, yes. All groups will find ways to differentiate each other, for whatever reason, in terms of is to eat better in Iceland, or NASA, or to have a leg up for whatever reason. And then it's a capitalistic society versus more collective society. So we're always going to have those ways to differentiate ourselves into and when you say markers, I'm saying, maybe not discriminate, but to look at people differently. If you want to use the word discriminate, that's okay, too. In terms of meaning.
Yes, I will say yes. And I had, again, I had a mentor my masters. I don't know where people came from and etc. But this just remind me an interesting story. People say you, you just start talking sometimes. And so this is one of those times. So I was on a fellowship, and I got a little money every month little stipend. It's all very tight on money. And so you know, my mentor, and some other folks, we were walking out one day, right angles out the spring break, I just sat take a semester off in South the spring break out, walk in, and you know, we're all black. And you know, we're all black, or whatever it is, like, you know, so they're saying so which so what would you do for spring break, Derek? And I say, Well, I went home to Birmingham, you know, my mom, my grandma house in the middle somewhere. So I help her clean it. And then we went to the scrap yard and sold it. You know, we stuffed the bottle in a barrel with some aluminum foil, but gas do let us weird down because they waited down for the other metal, the copper. That's the scrap metal copper. So you know that they made it heavy. It's like Allah, I'll go and go, like through with it. And so that gave us extra money on top of them with the copper would have bought us. And so for me, that's a true story. For me. I'm just like Boo doo doo doo doo. And I just stopped. It was just looking at me. And my mentor again, she she really helped me love her Dr. Gloria Griffith. If you look at Darren, do you need a job? Is it no good? Not knowing the implications of what I was saying? I just kept going. I was like, oh, no, no, let me explain to you like remotely were found some scrap metal and you know, she needed somebody to help her clean it. I did when my granddad and her when they were burned out was alive. So she found some metal, need some extra money, help her clean it. And that's what we did. I just told you the story. But it was surprising that if I told that same conversation back home with some folks they would have taken in terms of Oh, cool, they let you way down to Cabo with Samar. From Illumina for which you spoke to get rid of it, because it weighs it down and gives them more value based on weight. It's like oh, you got you did good with the system. That was that one. I was like yeah, so it just it was just different. So it was like that, that sense of higher education but that was my mentor had my best interests at heart so I got wouldn't get you a job if you need a job. So you went out started. So it wasn't taken in the wrong way by them. It was taken more of concern, but I can see in terms of well now speak may look at me if I mean scentless rap Alright, let's grab that I haven't did it in years, but I remember selling copper. Remember, you know, since my go up my grandma's neighbor house that's abandoned and steal the copper out. For me like you're doing it survivals you tell if T but that's that neighborhood, you can do that in where I live now in my neighborhood calls people call the cops and they'll shoot you. So, in this is a lot of rifles in my neighborhood, just FYI. So is to me, it's a matter of Yes. answer your question. Long story short, yes, there is differentiation based on social class and African American community. In Yes, social class is not really fully understood, in my point of view, in others, in terms of the counseling realm, and what it means. Because in one hand in that story, I was not necessarily looked down upon because I didn't feel that way. But I was looked differently. But the other hand, if I were to go somewhere, with people didn't understand what I was actually doing making more money by gaming the system, I would have been elevated. Gotcha. So does that answer your question? Oh,
it does. And I appreciate I appreciate that story. Because I think that they give a better picture of kind of, you know, what you're talking about social bias, I mean, that that really kind of put it really in, make a much more clear picture there. When you're when you're in one setting. And one perspective, people are like, oh, yeah, you did good versus other perspective, like, oh, man, why are you telling yourself this way. And so it was exact same scenario. But depending on once again, social class, how you're brought up all these different things like that, you're gonna look at these things differently. And it's like, and nothing is good that we know that we know those type of things. And we're going to be able to work with with clients from any any type of background, I know, it's like, oh, you can say, especially with what, what black clients are, we need to be able to understand where they come from, we need to maybe understand their story in order for us to work with them. So start starting the whole thing off by No, that's not do a quiz on what shows you know what to do a quiz on what movies, you know, this, like you said saw listening from the get go, and that's going to give you a better picture where this person has been some of the things they've been through because you're gonna hear from their own words, not just from your own personal perception or your substance that you may
work with the county prison and all those cases inner city black, or rural white, it was very interesting, either in either black or rural, white, interesting dynamic. And I will always say, you know, so meeting for the first time and got this information, so I so what's your story? Literally, I was asked, What do you mean, everybody out of story, I just want to hear your story. Maybe you want to share. And
I think that's an I think that's a as I'm thinking about this, the podcast, I think that's a domestic that's a really good place was kind of kind of kind of wrap up right here, just thinking about like, I think that should be really what our focus is as as clinicians is like we we seek to understand people's story first before we try to understand some of those other the other aspects of individuals, because we can make a lot of assumptions or we can go down the wrong trail significantly, for a long time. Because we're basing everything off of assumptions or my experience versus let me hear what this person has to say first, and then to understand what they had to say, now a better direction of where I'm going to go with them and to be able to have no other other parts the story of pickup from because I've got the original story, I found that I'm biased. I'm not trying to judge him on it. I just want to know, I just wanna know what their background is. And so now I know what to bring up. I'll go about because they will kind of fill in the blanks for me because we I've actually started the whole process all on listen to what their story is.
I agree with you. I'm now with it.
But there I really appreciate you being on here with me today. This has been fun and I just kind of being able to just kind of just have to kind of have an open conversation with you about this and appreciate you taking the time to be with us today. And we'd love to have you back on your guests sometime in the future. I
mean, okay, more than welcome, Michael, I appreciate you inviting me.
Thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoy the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept, Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. To learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept that Palo Alto you.edu forward slash concepts. As always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe
