Busting Math Myths with UDL: Making Math Accessible for All

3:03PM Oct 17, 2024

Speakers:

Tim Villegas

Keywords:

inclusive education

math myths

universal design

instructional coach

special education

math accessibility

student engagement

math identity

UDL framework

math strategies

inclusive classrooms

math barriers

student needs

math instruction

math equity

Hello, inclusionists. My name is Tim Villegas with the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education, and you are listening to or watching, think inclusive, our podcast that brings you conversations with people who are doing the work of inclusion in the real world. Are you a math person. I am not a math person. I'm not ashamed to say that I'm not a math person. Why do we feel like it's okay to say that you're not a math person? Do we feel the same way if I were to say I'm not a reading person. I don't I don't read, or I don't know how to read. You're about to hear a fascinating discussion with my guests this week, Jenna Rufo and Ron martiello. They are the co authors of a book called conquering math myths with universal design, and so we have a number of my favorite topics and people Jenna Rufo, who's been on the podcast before, is the founder and CEO of Empower ed school solutions, and Ron is an instructional coach in the state of Pennsylvania. In this conversation, you're going to hear how UDL and inclusive classrooms are closely related. Now, before we get into my conversation with Jenna and Ron, I want to talk to you about our sponsor for this season, who we are so excited about, we want to make sure that you check out IXL now, IXL is a personalized online learning and teaching solution that helps educators improve achievement for their students, empower teachers, track progress and a lot more. This one platform is for kindergarten through 12th grade and helps teachers accomplish what would normally require dozens of other tools. IXL gives educators meaningful insights that can drive real progress, and the research bears this out. Studies in nearly all 50 states show that schools that use IXL outperform other schools on state tests. So if you're interested in learning more about IXL and about their research behind it, go to ixl.com/inclusive that's ixl.com/inclusive again. Thank you to IXL. We really appreciate your sponsorship. Okay, when we come back, my conversation with Jenna Rufo and Ron martiello, see you on the other side. You

Jenna Rufo and Ron martiello, welcome to the think inclusive Podcast. I'm so excited that you're here and we're going to talk about math myths and UDL, but first I'd like to start off with some storytelling. You start off in your book talking about a math story. And so I'm going to share one of mine. And I was thinking, I'm like, do I have a math story? And I went to a private Christian school, K through eight. Not that that really has anything to do with it, except I, I remember using Saxon Math. I don't know if you remember, if y'all had that growing up, or it was part of the public school curriculum where you were, but Saxon Math and they were like the numbers of the grade level. So it's like sex and math five, or sex and math six, and then that would correspond with the grade level, and I would always do the fact problems, you know, and they would my teacher would say, Okay, I want you to do page 75 and I want you to do one through 50 or whatever. And then I realized one day that the answers were in the back of the book. I'm not sure if it was all of them or only the even ones or only the odd ones, but maybe the teachers thought we wouldn't figure it out, or they were just okay with us copying the answers. I'm guilty. I'm totally the person who copied the answers from the back of the book onto my worksheet, because I'm like, why am I going to do all this work when half the answers are here?

I mean, everybody now, Tim complains about using AI for the answers you just had the back of the book, right, right?

Exactly. No internet back then.

Yeah. Here. This was our AI math definitely

was. Is not my favorite subject. I think we're going to talk a little bit about that, about, like, what it means to have that identity as not a math person and stuff like that. But I'm wondering, Ron, would you start us off? What's a math story that comes to your mind? So

in the book, I write about my Catholic school upbringing in the Northeast Philadelphia, where, you know, like, turn to page, whatever, do problems, whatever. And that was the daily practice. And I was good. I mean, I was, I can go through those algorithms and, like, I can get answers, no problem. I loved the math. Fact games like the Knockout Game, I was, I was king of the Knockout Game, although I had some rivals in my class, and I still keep in touch with some of those rivals today, but we would get, you know, back in the day, we had the Smurfs on Saturday morning TV. I'm showing my age, and the Smurf stickers were very, very popular. And every time I won knockout, I put one of those Smurf stickers right on my tie. And I make sure, like every Smurf that I collected throughout the week was stuck, was stuck on my tie. I was so proud of these and being the winner of knockout on a regular basis. As I went into middle school, though, it didn't matter, because math had kind of passed me by, and the algorithms got tougher, and I had to think differently about math, but yet, my classmates chugged along in a different section while I was kind of left behind. So got to high school, started finding love for math again. Took trigonometry. I'm like, Okay, I'm doing pretty well. Thought I'd go into college as a math major. And then all of a sudden, I took the entries exam, and I needed college algebra. So it was like, there goes math again. It like, left me behind again. And it wasn't until finally, like I started teaching and started understanding, you know, when I started teaching math really, what was math really about? Was it really about page 76 and all those numbers one through 10? Was it about the stickers that I won for knockout? Or was it really like the thinking and the reasoning and the productive work that I was doing. So I found love in math. Again,

unlike Ron, my earliest math memories were not fond memories. I think I have a lot of math baggage. My first math memory I was in third grade, and I remember that I had to stay in from recess because I did not finish my workbook page. I still, however many years later, remember this workbook page, which were bundles of sticks. We were supposed to know that a big bundle of sticks was 100 and a little or bundle of sticks was 10, and then one stick was one. I missed that memo somehow. So I was counting those individual sticks another classmate of mine, who also had to stay in from recess, she kind of looked over at me and said, you know, those are 10s and hundreds, right? And I thought, Oh, now this makes sense. And I quickly did it, and then kind of slunk off into the recess yard so no one would see. You know that I was held back because of math. So I think that that math experience pretty much shaped my future with the subject. I was on a trajectory where I could have taken AP math classes if I wanted, but I chose not to, similar to Ron mill. When I became a teacher, I was working at the middle school level, and I was responsible to support a math intervention program that happened outside of the school day. And it was at that point that I thought, you know, I actually can do math, and I can show other people how to do math, and I really enjoy trying to figure out ways to make it accessible for kids who had struggled with math. So that was sort of my lens, and my interest in working with Ron to write this book was on how we make math more accessible for learners and also for teachers who find themselves as, quote, not a math person, and then you're in the position of actually having to teach it.

Yes, that is very relatable being a classroom teacher for a long time and not feeling like a math person myself. It really wasn't until I was in the classroom that I had to teach myself math. I better know this before I'm able to actually provide instruction for my students as a special education teacher, teaching in a segregated classroom, the expectations for me to teach math were really low. So it wasn't even that there were expectations for my students, but the expectations of what I could deliver for my students were like, Oh yeah, that's fine. Just go through the workbook.

Time is really right,

right? So

get me started.

Yeah, well, we can get started. I do want to get into why you wrote the book, and also like what the connection is between universal design for learning and why you've chosen to frame busting these math myths. With EDL. So Jenna, I'm gonna throw that to you. Why is that connection important?

Yeah, so Ron and I have a history. We had worked together in a district for over 10 years. We worked together as administrators and various roles. And Ron, couple years ago, reached out and he said, You know, I've been thinking about writing this book. You've done a few of these. And I said, Well, you want to do one together? And he said, Yes, and here we are. Ron has a very strong instructional background in math. I have a very strong Special Education UDL type of background. And I think what was so great about our work together was that we were really able to complement each other in different ways and to kind of approach it from both lenses of standards based standards of mathematical practice, versus how to make it more accessible. And in our initial conversations when we were talking about writing the book, one of the things that came up a lot is, you know, there's lots of information, lots of resources out there on science of reading, on how to teach reading effectively and how to differentiate, and there really isn't that same information for math. So we wanted to work together to develop a book that would provide teachers with some pretty concrete strategies of here's how you can make math accessible and debunk those myths that math is only for the select few, or those people who have this innate ability. Because that's really not the case. So I think that reasoning behind making the book was really to figure out, how can we show that there are ways that math can be approachable and accessible for all learners?

Yeah, that's a great point. What you you talk about that there's so much there's so many resources for for reading. And I was just at a an academy that the Maryland State Department of Education was putting on it. It was through, if I say spadig, does that? Does? Do? You know what that means, state development personnel grant ad, I didn't want to throw that out there without explaining it. Through some federal money that was given to Maryland, the focus was on building up and equipping educators for math instruction and embedded social emotional learning. So that was kind of the focus of the grant. There was some really great discussion going on about how for you to say, I'm not good at math is much more acceptable than to say, Well, I'm not good at reading. You're right. It's like, I don't know how to read, or I don't read, or whatever. That's just, that's a far more you're like, Hmm, let me think about that for a minute. But with the math thing, it's like, Oh, I'm not good at math. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, we get it. We get it. So why? Like, I wonder. Why is it that we're okay with people saying, I'm not I'm not good at math, but we kind of aren't okay with people saying, well, I'm not really good at reading.

That's a question that has been coming around more and more in the circles that I've traveled in my career. I've done a lot of elementary we like to kind of gravitate toward the ELA part. We love reading, and even like science, like, hey, we'll do these little hands on experiments, we'll hatch butterfly eggs, and we'll do all these great things. And social studies is great because you got holidays and history and all that great stuff. Math, you know? It goes back to the experiences that we had when we were in school, and some of those experiences were not very popular, and they shaped a little bit of a fear in us. I mean, I can remember the quiz grades going up on the tack board, like the push pin board, and everybody's quizzes were hung on the wall, even the kiddos who didn't do well, kids who did really well. And of course, if you were all the way to the right, like you're really proud of that paper, if you were all the way to the left, you wanted to tear it down because you didn't want anybody knowing that. The other thing is, you were in isolation. I mean, if I look to the left, or I look to the right, or if I even tried to share, like, a strategy or an idea with another student, I mean, it was like, We're cheating all of a sudden, I had a great experience up until about fifth grade. I mean, doing my math facts and having my stickers. As soon as their stickers went away and my class left and I went in another section, like, I better, like, all of a sudden, things kind of got real. So we've been some of the lucky ones to understand, like, oh, because we've been educators, we kind of go back to the roots of the math that we're able to kind of break that cycle.

I'd like to get back to the like. Why is UDL in particular, an antidote to all of those kind of like math myths?

Well, Ron May. You can start out by talking about our myth of answer getting and then I can sort of jump in from there,

the kiddos who tend to get that answer quickly and move our lessons along, tend to be validated as that math person in the class. And so what ends up happening is, you know, those three top kids who are in the class and always raising their hand, and the principal comes in, does my observation, and it's like, Oh, Johnny and Sally, and, you know, they're easy to pick and keep the class rolling. But what ends up happening is we leave a lot of those other kids behind and answering, those kids who are getting the answers quickly, like they're doing a lot of mental math quickly, and that's okay. That should be validated. But we also want to validate the process, the process of doing math, the productive struggle, the discourse, being able to kind of to think and do those mental exercises, like individually, and then kind of share those ideas out that answer getting myth. If we just keep validating all these kids who are getting the right answers, who move our curriculum along and help us keep on pace, then we're missing an opportunity for kiddos to show their thinking, to be part to participating in the mental exercise of math and being able to invest in this process with their classroom community, and when we develop that environment where we can support that reasoning, even the mistakes, let's celebrate those mistakes like you gave it a great try. This is where perseverance comes from. You made your mistake, but you found another way. Those are the things that should be really celebrated in math, as we're trying to teach young students, because ultimately, we don't want math to be a gatekeeper subject, and it's open for all the answer getters. But you know what? Just like me, there comes a time where, like, you can't just do all that stuff in your working memory. You really need to know how to reason, how to persevere, how to make sense of math. As far as the connection to UDL Jenna, we found so many intersections between teaching the math and being able to be responsive to students. Yeah,

absolutely. And the reason I brought up that Miss of answer getting is because, when we're thinking of our students, who are very good with their facts, quick Fact Fluency, they get those answers right away, and we sort of define our success in math based on that narrow population. We are missing a huge group of students. So the way that UDL, Universal Design for Learning, really supports that need, is we abandon this idea that there is a typical or average or normal student, and if we just teach to the middle to that normal, average, typical student, then we'll get most kids. So instead of looking at it from that way, and I say this when I'm doing trainings on UDL as well, I say, don't think about those students in the middle or those students who are your quick answer headers, you need to think about the extremes. So we think about the student in your class who has the most need, and then you think about the student in your class who needs the most challenge. And if we can think and plan intentionally with entry points for those two students, then everybody else in between is going to be able to access that lesson more readily. So that's really the approach, really thinking about different access points for students to be able to take in the information, to express or show us what they know, and then to engage with the content. I

really like this line, UDL is about anticipating barriers and then providing multiple pathways to get to the goal. And I love that, because it is like what you said, Jenna, it's not about teaching to the middle, but you're really thinking through if I were thinking about designing a lesson for my particular class, I know the students in my class, I know the learners, and I'm anticipating the barriers that particular learners may have when Accessing this particular standard. But if I know that certain students are my answer getters are the ones that are going to get this really quickly. How am I going to be able to provide a pathway for the learner that maybe isn't going to get that answer as quickly? Right? We know

when it comes to math, there are going to be kids in our class who aren't fluent with their facts. We know that there are going to be kids who have gaps because they were online two years because of covid, and so we really have to plan around that and think about not holding students back because I haven't mastered my facts. So I think we also talk in the book about this idea, this myth of pre. Requisite skills that you can't possibly move on to something unless you master, you know, these initial things. And I think that's been our excuse for years to keep students with disabilities out of the classroom. And I don't think that learning is that linear. So I think that we have to look at, yes, you might have this barrier, but just because you don't know your facts yet doesn't mean you're not going to know them. Also, doesn't mean that we keep you out of learning this higher level content, because while you're learning the facts, there are ways that we can accommodate so that you still have exposure to that content.

Yeah, if I could plus that too, there's a big movement coming out of the mathematics community that talks about on ramping students so proactively. If we know there are students in need of a very essential prior to core instruction, prior to that lesson 25 that's coming up, we could pre teach those prerequisite skills to make sure they're ready for core instruction, rather than the students being two steps behind. So proactively, if we know these students are in need of an essential skill to access that grade level instruction, we could be pre teaching that proactively, making sure that they can engage.

Yeah, great. Great point. Jenna, while you were talking, I just keep thinking. I know that there are people listening and watching and going like, that's exactly the reason why particular students are excluded from the general education setting, because they, quote, unquote, can't keep up. They don't know all their facts. How are they going to learn this particular math skill if they don't have these prerequisite skills. So I'm really glad that you're dismantling those myths. Yeah.

And I think the other thing Tim, that sort of jogs my memory and a discussion that you and I have probably had before is a lot of times those students who are kept out of math class because of their disability, because they're below grade level, we decide for them that they would be more appropriate learning functional skills like how to tell time and how to count change when you know, meanwhile, we don't go to the grocery store with a bag of change. We've got our phones in front of us for the clocks all the time. So I think we have to really reconsider kind of these narrow pathways that we're putting students in and say, you know, what, if we provided some more supports, if we looked at this from more of that lens of UDL and looking at, you know, student who has the most need, needs the most challenge, then we could find entry points for those students, and we wouldn't be relegating them to these separate programs or separate classrooms to work on things that really might not even be functional, which is why we say in the first place they have to go there

in the book, you have a number of examples and ways that teachers can embed or use UDL, the VDL framework, to inform certain aspects of instruction. So, for example, having some sort of choice board, or having students think about what is difficult or what is challenging about a particular standard or skill. Do you have any examples that you could share with our listeners to preview what is in the book and how the book could be useful to help math instruction?

Yeah. So can I share a recent example? I have to share a story that I did a teacher I was working with recently, and we were talking about rounding three digit numbers. And so we sat down and we talked about what the goals of that were, and trying to anticipate what the barriers would be. And so lots of times we there's this, this roller coaster Hill method, where you're like, you know, if you're you have the 500 and the 600 and if 575 575 lands, here you go down and you round up to 600 the teacher that I was talking with made a very interesting discovery. Said, I have some kids who have trouble with the rounding up all of these number lines are left to right. What if we offered a possibility for a student to choose a number line that went north and south, where the 500 was down here and the 600 is up here, and then I offer the vertical number line, and when I say, round up students who may be having who want to go up, can do that rather than up being to the right. So that's just, that's just the productive type of conversation that can happen when you're collaborating with teachers, and teachers who are boots on the ground is proactively see those things down. Can they still use the. Hill method. Sure they could still use the hill method. Can they use the left to right? Open number line? Sure they could use left and right, no open number line. But if they really think that students would benefit, students can choose to do the vertical number line.

Yeah, I think that's a great example, Ron. And I think one of the things that we've been trying to point out in our work and through the book as well is, you know, using a variety of strategies. And sometimes, I think that the very real pressure on teachers to cover all of the standards sometimes results in us almost becoming page turners with the resource that we've been provided. So what we try to encourage and what we're advocating for in the book is, yes, you have that resource, but it is a resource, and it's that resource isn't always the best way to meet the needs of all of your students. So instead of maybe doing a workbook page full of perimeter problems where we're kind of getting out our rulers. If you have a tiled floor, let's put some tape on the tiles and actually walk around and do it. So really thinking differently. And I think it's more bringing the art back into teaching that we've lost a little bit along the way, of how we can make this meaningful for everybody. And when we think about those things, like Ron mentioned, we think about even just something as easy as changing the way that we're showing this number line up and down instead of left to right. While that for some kids is really necessary and important, it's useful for everybody. So the strategies that we use to reach our learners who have more needs, or our learners who are even higher level, they're really effective for everybody.

Jenna and Ron, both of you collaborated on this, on this book, and I know you talked a little bit about it at the beginning, but you know, So Ron, you kind of you're coming from an instructional general education background. And Jenna come from, you know, specially designed instruction that you know that's kind of in your wheelhouse. How did you all work together to put this book together?

Okay, can I jump in on this one? Jenna, go for it all. Right. So the book, I had an idea for a math book, because, as you know, as I learned more about how math has been put together, and even with with the Common Core, with all the elements of it, it was built to be more inclusive. And as we you know, as I began training in UDL, I saw these intersections. And so that's when I kind of like talked to Jenna about the book. And the way that we kind of started working is like Jenna would say, Okay, well, you give the chapter a start with the math stuff, and then I'm going to help you to solidify those connections. And so then Jenna would kind of waiver one, and then Jenna would take it from

there, yeah, and I think for me too. So the book, the product, is great, but I feel like I really grew in my knowledge as well, just throughout the process. And I think I don't want to speak for Ron, but I feel like he probably did as well. You know Ron, you met you answered something earlier, and you were talking about a barrier to learning. And I was like, Oh, I have an influence on him,

but I approach that every time I sit down with a teacher. Now, yeah,

I think all the time of things that I learned from working with you on the books. So I know that when I work with teachers now, I talk a lot more about focus and coherence. So focus being what we are studying more deeply, and then coherence, how topics are related from one to the next. And that was not something that I gave a lot of thought to before we started working on the book and having those conversations about how to make math more accessible. And you know, I think that's really important when we're talking about our kids with disabilities, because we have some students who, because of the nature of their disability, they may not be getting every single point of that math curriculum, and that's okay. I would much rather have that student be exposed and receive access and be part of that class and do as much as they can, than be put in another room and not even have the chance. And I think when we look at things like using focus and coherence and the standards of mathematical practice, we can really hone in on here are the most essential skills here, and this is what we want to make sure that no matter what, we are hitting these major standards, and that Ron and I were kind of sidebar a little bit earlier, we were talking about additional standards, or supportive standards, and how those sort of set the table, but really making sure. Sure that one of my colleagues, Kate small, who's not with us today, but she always describes it as it's like meal planning. So just like in meals, some parts of that meal, some calories are more important than others. In standards, some of those standards are more important than others. So I feel like just I really grew a lot through this process in terms of working with Ron, looking at it from a different lens, more of those standards of Beth. And then I'd like to think that I gave him some pointers on the UDL and inclusive practices piece,

definitely. And I love it. You talk about that focus and coherence, that's the design, that's the art that you talk about, that's and I think that's one thing that helps, helps teachers when they know their the content that they're teaching, and they understand the system that math is built on, with coherence and focus. We didn't even talk about rigor with its conceptual understanding and the procedural and then the application, like, there's room in there for a lot of access and ways kids can kind of to give that get those entry points into math, but if you understand those pieces, it's a lot easier to design for learners who are later in their learning or early in their Learning. So

yeah, and I think in our last chapter, we actually talk about for students who have more significant disabilities, how we pick out those key standards and what that could look like. So definitely something that we worked into that hopefully is helpful for our teachers and families that are reading the book. I

think that's really important because, you know, we've talked a little bit about this before, but, you know, especially in math, the argument in, you know, in IEP meetings and in in planning, you know, where students are going to be, you know, placed in, in in different classrooms is, well, there's no way that they could access this particular standard, or there's no way they could keep up in this particular class, especially once you get into the middle and the high school ages. And so I think that's it's really important that this book already has that baked into it right, that you both as authors, that was important, important enough for that to be assumed, that all students belong. I wanted to highlight one of the chapters in your book, and I have it right here. Chapter Eight, the all children but myth creating systems of equity and excellence. And something that you bring up in the book is that it's not we're sacrificing equity for excellence and vice versa. Can one of you kind of unpack that for us?

Yeah. So I think when we when I go places, and they tell me we're implementing universal design for learning, and then I find out that there are separate classrooms and places where kids go. That's that doesn't make sense to me, right? So if you're implementing universal design, we are talking about all students, and that's really the lens that we're trying to approach it from. So you know, if you're doing UDL, but you still have separate classrooms. You're not really doing UDL. So UDL is looking at everyone holistically, and this idea of, well, the other kids will suffer, or they will drag down the class. First of all, you know, there is no no research that shows that that is the case, but put the research aside. I think that sometimes people have a problem seeing how this could work, because they are looking at the system as it currently is, rather than what it could be. So yes, as we continue to take a narrow approach to mathematics instruction, and if we continue to, you know, really focus on those answer getters and one way of accessing the information. Then those people are probably right. It's probably not going to be successful. We have to shift. And when we make that shift, when we make the shift towards supporting our students who have the most needs, and then at the other end of the spectrum, as I mentioned earlier, the kids who need the most challenge, we are benefiting everyone. So it really is a change in instructional practice and the way that we're addressing it. And when you make that change, and you make that shift, then we don't have to sacrifice that excellence for equity, because. Because everybody is getting what they need.

Ron as someone who comes from an instructional or general education background, right, and as someone who is coaching teachers and helping people how to UDL works within their system, what has been effective to help teachers change their mindset that all children really do belong in general education spaces and classrooms.

Sometimes it's a matter of defining what success in math looks like. Success in math traditionally looks like, you know, students who are, you know, again, I'll go to the height to the extreme of the isolates, like, Who do calculus, who are headed that way. Math is for everybody. Math is for everybody. Math is for people who are going to and I think about math in a way, like when they come out of our school system, like, what, what do we expect of our students? As far what math is, whether they, you know, they are going to be doctors and lawyers, or whether they are going to be, you know, helping and doing some type of service job, or if they're going to go in the military. Like, I want to know how we can build math up and for everyone, because math is something that we all need. And so when I frame this out for teachers, I'm always like, what is the end goal here? Because a lot of times we can get caught in the mud of the year to year, day to day, when we should be kind of looking up and out, when we're looking at the child and saying, Okay, this is where they are right now. Can we build this out and scaffold this out so that this student can continue on a pathway, so they can continue to have, you know, keep their hopes and dreams in sight along the horizon. So it's not just about this quiz or this test or this grade, it's about developing this student as a mathematician. And again, doesn't matter what their hopes and dreams are, they all have them, but math is the accelerator, not necessarily the great gatekeeper.

Anything to add? Jenna,

yeah, I think Ron, I love that you said that what success looks like in math is going to be maybe different for different students. And for me, it just makes me think about when we approach our students who have disabilities, a lot of times, we make assumptions about what they are capable of, or perceptions of what we think they are going to need later in life. So you know, what could this student possibly get out of being in pre calculus? Well, I was in pre calculus. I don't use that in my life. So I think that sometimes we hold our students with disabilities to a higher standard than the standard that we hold other students to, in terms of they have to prove to us that they are worthy of learning this curriculum when, as Ron mentioned, it's for everybody and what that student chooses to do or not do with math later in their life is not really our concern. That's something that they will figure out on their own. And I think as educators and we have to really keep those options and avenues open for them. Anything

you'd like to plug websites we you know, we have the book. We'll make sure to put that link in the show notes. And while we Ron, why don't we go with you first and then, and then, Jenna,

oh gosh, you could find me on LinkedIn, that's where I do most of my social media posts, and be happy to connect with you there.

And my website is in Howard school.org, dot org. So that's Empower E, M, P, O, W, E, R, E, d.org, and that's where I have information on training and books and other supports

fantastic and the book is called conquering math myths with universal design and an inclusive instructional approach for grades K through eight. All right. Oh, it's mystery question time. I really do this to amuse myself.

We're not amusing enough to talk to on a Rutland No,

no, no, no. It's though you're very amusing. But I started this last last season, and I just, it's just, it's just really fun to end like this. So thank you for in indulging with me. Okay, here we go. The question is, What is something you love that is vintage? Let's see. Let's put that up to the thing, what is something that you love that is vintage? Vintage is a relative word, by the way. I'll go first. I love vinyl records. So I grew up my my parents had a record player. We had we listened to, like, a lot of Keith green, which is, like a Christian singer, piano player. And I played piano too. So I was, like, really into that. And we listened to a lot of classical music, a lot of like, you know, church stuff or whatever. And I didn't really think about records as, like, very interesting, you know, because it was just some it was something that was always around. And then, you know, when CDs came out, you know, I would like spend all my money on CDs. And then, of course, you know, CDs went away. And now we stream everything but a few years ago, my wife gave me a record player for anniversary, and I started collecting Vinyl, and I got some old records from my father in law, and I was just like, there's something really nice about having an analog way of of listening to music. And so I will, I've had my record player downstairs, and I will just, especially when everyone's like out of the house, and I'll just crank it up, you know, as as loud as it goes. And there's just something about that analog sound that I really like. So that is something that I love, that is vintage.

You have anything yet. I have something go ahead. So one of my passions growing up. And before I thought I was going to be a teacher, I wanted to be a comic book artist. And I have a vast comic book collection, collection, probably two big, long boxes of comics from mostly from the 80s and 90s. In my generation, I do have a couple from, like the bronze era the 70s. Have one that's in pretty good shape and worth a bit of money. But the my comic book collection is the thing I love that is vintage, because the digital comics are just different. They hit differently. They're a little more multimedia, even the newer comics, or the way that the paper that they're printed on, but like when you open up an old comic book and you smell the news printed paper and it just it feels different. And there's a lot of classic stories that I'm seeing in the new movies now that I can go back to and say this is the issue that came from. So

amazing. Great. Yeah, great example. All right. Jenna, okay,

so I think it would be a piece of clothing which is definitely vintage at this point. And it is vintage because it is a Villanova lacrosse sweatshirt from when I was in high school. Now here's what's funny about that. Is I didn't go to Villanova, and I don't play lacrosse. My sister, I think, went to a lacrosse camp there once, and somehow I stole it from her, and I wear this sweatshirt constantly, so much so that my sister sees me walking around in it, and she's like, why do you still have this sweatshirt? It's so old. My husband jokes about it. He said it's the least favorite thing that I have, that I wear, because it's just a ratty old sweatshirt. But I love it, and it's very comfortable, and it's vintage. It was funny. I was wearing something completely different the other day, and my two girls, one of them said, Mom, that's a very y 2k outfit. So apparently, you know that? Oh, wow, they're vintage, vintage. So I think the middle Novo cross.

Oh my gosh. I know. I know. We watched the matrix the other other night, and I would look to my wife, I'm like, this came out over 20 years ago, like, Oh my gosh. What? What in the world? What happened? Well, thank you. Thank you for participating in the mystery question. Ron martiello, Jenna Rufo, thank you so much for being on the think collusive podcast.

Thank you, Tim, thank you. Tim,

All right, welcome back. It's time for three for me and two for you. It's easily becoming one of my favorite parts of putting this podcast together. Okay, number one, I love that Jenna and Ron wrote this book with the assumption that students don't have to keep up to be included in general education classrooms. There is this miscon. Inception, especially in math, that learners with disabilities cannot and should not be in general education classrooms because they cannot keep up with the curriculum. It's like as soon as a learner has this label, then the school team is like, well, they must be educated somewhere else, because the somewhere else is this magical place, and somehow they'll be able to be caught up when everyone's working at their own pace in this one particular spot. But if everyone's working at their own pace in this one particular classroom and everyone else is moving on, how are they going to have the opportunity to catch up that needs to be removed from the argument and from this conversation. And so what I really appreciate about Jenna and Ron's book is that their assumption is that all learners belong in general education, which is something that at mcie, we fully, fully endorse that idea. Okay. Number two, I love this quote from Jenna, if you're implementing UDL but still have separate classrooms, you're not really doing UDL. Now, not every school in the United States is implementing universal design for learning, but a lot of them are. And so if you're listening to this conversation and you're going wait a minute, we implement UDL and we have that specialized Autism Program, or that specialized Behavior Support Program, or that program for students with intellectual disabilities. I want you to really think, am I implementing universal design for learning? Okay, number three, math is for everyone, I think it's really important for us to start believing that now it doesn't mean that everyone's going to be a math genius, just like not everyone is going to read two or three grades above their reading level. Everyone can do math and using Universal Design for Learning, we can make sure that we can provide the conditions so that everyone can be successful in math. Okay, now time for two for you. Number one, what is your math story? I love that. Jenna and Ron start off their book with math stories. After listening to this episode, what is the math story that comes to your mind? And we're going to ask this on social media, so make sure you look out for that number two, make sure to check out Jenna rufos website, empowered school, dot O, R G, to learn more about her services, and she runs a great blog. There to you lots of great ideas, and make sure to sign up for her newsletter. Also find Ron martiello on LinkedIn. We're going to put his LinkedIn page on our show notes. I'd love it for him to get like, 1000 requests on LinkedIn to connect, so make sure you do that. He is a fantastic resource. Am so thankful that he and Jenna put their heads together to make their book conquering math myths with universal design. All right, that's going to do it for this episode of Think inclusive time for the credits. Think inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed and mastered by me Tim Villegas, and is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, Original Music by miles. Kredit, additional music from melody. Thank you to our sponsor, IXL. Learn more at ixl.com/inclusive and if you haven't already, it would make my heart so happy if you would rate think inclusive on Spotify or Apple podcasts. And if you really want to get on my good side, write a review on Apple podcasts, so that everyone can know what you think of the podcast and hopefully convince more people to listen. Speaking of Apple podcast reviews, we did get a recent one, so I'm gonna give a shout out to them. Hold on a second. I'm gonna find it okay. This is from KT, new nine, the new season opener, featuring Tim doing a deep dive on the persistent issues with segregated schooling spaces, is phenomenal, as are many other episodes. One of my fave education pods at the moment. Thank you so much. KT new nine. NEW. Really appreciate you taking the time to write a review so that could be you write a review on Apple podcasts, and I will give you a shout out. We'd love to know that people listen. Thanks for your time and attention, and remember inclusion always works. Think I hit all the things from mcie or.