Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions, and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories all to create an Impact Uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabbit fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Becky, what's happening?
Happy New Year, my friend. How are you?
Oh my gosh. Do you remember the text that I sent you right after I got off the phone meeting this amazing human?
Yes, I mean, it was, it was probably point four seconds after you hit the off button on the Zoom. And what an incredible opportunity to take an Impact Uprising Founding Member who is doing so much to pour empathy, civility, justice, kindness into the world and spotlight her as the first episode of 2025 y'all, we hope you're feeling the hope. We hope you're feeling the possibility and the power of joy, connectivity and kindness. So settle in today, because we've got Dr. Payal Beri on the podcast today, You know her, her bio says that she's a global empathy speaker, founder, psychologist and creator and founder of RK Empathy, which we're going to dive into. But when we first met her, she said, y'all, I'm just a quirky nerd. And we were like, We have found our people, and I have on my LinkedIn profile, Jon, I know you've seen this, that I am an empathy guardian, and I want to protect every opportunity that we can to connect with each other in kindness, listening, creating spaces of belonging. And Dr. Beri has been doing this for 18 plus years. Her work's been truly at the intersection of empathy and social impact. So you all are in for a treat today. Just a little bit of background on Payal. She is committed to empowering people, leaders and communities to realize that we have more in common as humans than otherwise led to believe by those who benefit from our divide. She has spoken about the power of empathy and transformational impact in tons of organizations like you know, little known names like NASA and Google and lots of wonderful non profit organizations, among so many others, her work is really about championing us and empowering us our organizations to lean into cultivating an empathy based approach that grows your impact exponentially with your community, whilst spreading positivity and prosperity. She says that empowering a world where empathy and accountability triumph the walls of division, that is her goal, and my goodness, are we blessed to have you on this podcast? Come on in here. Founding Impact Uprising member, we are so glad you're here. Dr. Beri.
Oh my goodness, thank you so much. It's so lovely to be here. I just probably could spend the whole day chatting with you guys. So I
Forever.
Forever.
Our first day long episode, let's go.
Marathon.
The filibuster of all podcasts,
I'm here for it.
Well, you're no stranger to podcasting. You've got your own podcast, and I love that you do because you're spreaded. Spreading these messages of love, of kindness, of these are not just words we talk about in kindergarten, y'all. These are transcendent opportunities for us to connect and grow into our full vibrancy. But before we dive into this, and believe me, I'm going to be taking a lot of notes from you Payal. We want to, like, get to know you. We want to know about little Payal growing up and her heart for social justice. How did you get into this work?
Oh, my goodness, you know, I think that for any of us, right? It's not coincidence. It's nothing like that. It's like the little pieces in our life, like just navigate us on that path. And it was no different for me. I had a very interesting life, childhood. You know, we moved around a lot, so before the age of 10, I'd already lived in, I don't even know, at like 18 different places, but you know, about four different continents, you know, across like eight different countries. And we hopped around a lot. And, no, my father was not in the military. He was actually a corporate chef, so, you know, but we yeah, and so, you know, I grew up in the Middle East, and call myself a third culture kid, so Indian by ethnicity, grew up in Egypt by Iraq. And then when we moved to America, my welcome to America was Queens, New York, and my second day of class. So it was in second grade, and my mom had walked me the first day, just for me to know the path. And it was literally just at the end of the, you know, our road. And the second day, or third day, I was, like, walking by myself, and I'm on the sidewalk, and I'm walking and a woman in the building, apartment building, like screams out, telling me to get the f off the sidewalk, and I'm just like, I don't understand what's happening. And that was my welcome to America, right? But it was. I spent second grade in Queens, New York, Tampa, Florida, Edison Jersey, and I spent third grade in Melbourne, Australia. And then fourth grade onwards was back in the US. And so having moved around to so many different countries and cities, and having to just pick up and go and settle in and understand everything like, of course, like kids are kids, no matter where you go, but it really taught me how to connect and how to relate to people. Because you're in Tampa, Florida, you're in the south, and that is a different experience than when I was in Australia, and I experienced everything from really hard bullying based off of racism as well as deep compassion. And so it was, I would say, the earliest indicator for me, of just learning how people operate and how to connect and why, you know, even though everyone's ultimately looking for the same things of joy and happiness and wanting to feel belonged and all this, but the way it manifests really just changes based off of the cultural values of like, the dynamic there, and that obviously led me into this curious space. I remember we were like, in fifth grade, or fourth grade, and my mom asked me, you know, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I don't know, like, what fourth grader would say this, but I was like, I would love to be at a mental hospital, and I just want to climb into the sewer system and just stay up there and wait for all the nurses and doctors to go away so that I can actually see what would this person be like if they were just left by themselves and weren't expected to be something for, you know, whoever's there, and just who are they? Like, as human like, who says that?
Quirky nerd, like, who has so much empathy in her heart, that's who.Yeah, I would say that.
And so that naturally led me through, you know, my career in clinical therapy, and I did home based counseling in New York City, and that was also my first experience with, you know, going into neighborhoods that I had never experienced before, and seeing some of my clients. And just like seeing their stories firsthand, you know, and it's like I come from such a different narrative and world, and now I'm experiencing someone else's narrative and world, and we're in the same space, same time, same everything, and so that just really again, opened up my eyes more of you know how I may be living in this world through one narrative, but it's not the only reality. And so how can we accept my reality and how can I accept their reality? And it doesn't mean that one negates the other. They both coexist.
I mean, holy cow, have we ever had a background story like that B? I mean, we've talked to hundreds of people on this podcast, but I think just like the experiences that you've been witness to, the community that you've built that's so diverse and so varied from such a young age, has given you a different lens to this. So I'm so excited for this conversation to talk about empathy, to talk about the power of accountability and how, like you say, it could triumph the walls of division like what a beautiful place to start this year, in a country that's really still very divided, that's just in the States. So I would, I'm curious. I mean, you touched on your clinical therapy background, your organizational psychologist background, how does that those experiences really inform the work that you're doing now, in empathy, like, take us into that world and how it's kind of informing the work that you're doing today?
Yeah, you know, I always thought about my work as, so, prior to even clinical I was actually a film major, and I was a dancer, choreographer, and I thought I was going to be in that space, or just a naturally creative mind, and went into clinical therapy. Because, you know, I will be honest, I think that when people think about careers in psychology. We're not as well informed about all the different ways you can have a career in psychology, and so a lot of times we go into clinical therapy, because we think that is what you do, which I definitely was like, this was an incredible experience, but my brain has always been a very macro thinker. And so even though one on ones were great, like, I always was like, it's not enough. Like, I want more. I want to make a bigger impact. Like, how do I do that? I think the one on work is incredible and absolutely necessary, but my brain just works a little differently. And so as I was in that space, I, you know, went into Organizational Psychology, started working corporate. And I'll be honest, I, you know, worked in corporate for about 10 years or so, building global programs and all this stuff and but, you know, I mentioned this to Jon before, is like, I always say, like taking a creative choreographer and a clinical therapist and putting them in a corporate environment is like putting a really thick wool sweater on a naked body, it is the most uncomfortable thing
So itchy.
So itchy, but what I will say is that I'm grateful for that experience, because it actually taught me how can I talk to business leaders and help them care about the things that matter. And so, you know, as a clinical therapist and psychologist, I understand psychology. I understand human behavior. What the org psychology stuff did was help me understand how to now make this relevant, and how to make people care who don't necessarily know how to care about something that is so abstract for them. And so taking all of this, you know, when I stepped out into building my own business, into RK Empathy, their focus really became is that everyone is coming into things from their perception, their roles, and so it is hard to relate and understand something that you're just seeing on media, that you're just reading on articles, depending on which magazine, which newspaper, which outlets that you're reading from the community that you're spending time in. So whatever that is, is informing the way that you see the world. And so if you've never stepped into a, you know, low income area, if you've never, for example, you know, here, like an urban city girl here, never been to a farmland area and grown up and seen what, what life is like in rural America. It is as much as you try to understand it. It's really hard. So my goal really became on, how do we bring things to life, for people to experience it, and to people to go through the motions of it, so they can actually be like, Oh, I get it right. And so what I always say is that the misconception of empathy is that, and I get this a lot, where people will say, you know, well, I'm not a mother, so I don't it's too hard for me to empathize. And it's like, well, that's not what empathy is, you know? It's, it's not about necessarily having the exact same circumstance or having gone through the experience yourself. That's not actually humanly possible. What is, is that you have to look at the undertone of what's happening emotionally here. So, you know, if, for example, Becky, like, you know, let's say you're a new mom, and you someone puts one more thing on your plate and you're ready to rip your hair out. You're like, I cannot, right?
Oh, that was me yesterday. Keep going.Not the new mom part, but still. Point made.
Right? So what I'm looking for is, what is the underlying emotional response Becky is having, you know? Is she frustrated? Is she just overwhelmed? Is she feeling underwater here? Have I ever felt those things? I have I felt underwater. I felt like, if someone does one more thing, I'm just gonna scream. So I connect to that emotional response, and I can be there from that place. Have I ever experienced grief, disappointment, and it may not be to the level of grief, right? And that's the other piece. Is recognizing that just because you handle emotions in a different way, it doesn't make it better or worse. It's just being relevant to it and so or being relative. And so I look at it as the misconception of really helping people understand that empathy is about understanding the emotional response and seeing that, what would life look like if every time you try to get ahead, you're pushed down to the floor? And so if we can help people see that, and they've been through that, then we can actually have dialog.
I mean, where do I even begin to respond to that Payal? You're just you're pulling up so much in me, and granted, I'm an Enneagram two, so I'm high feeler anyway. But the thing that I love about what you're saying and what your entire ethos is is this expression of curiosity and of openness and of understanding that all of us are not benefited by staying in our echo chambers or in the vacuums, and while we gravitate toward people who we value align with, it's very important for us to hear the perspectives of other people, because we don't know, because we haven't experienced everything, because we haven't felt it in the way someone else has felt it because of lived experience, because of psychosocial issues, because of whatever else is going on in our life. So I just, I love this conversation. I thank you for breaking it down. And if this is your first time even exploring empathy, thank you for coming into this conversation. But empathy is just like to define it very easily is that you can relate to someone else's feelings and diving into that. And so I want to ask you a really specific question about, like, emotional intelligence, because I feel like I grew up with IQ is the thing that you measure, and it is the definition of your intelligence, and now we know so much more about what emotional intelligence can awaken in self awareness and belonging and all of these other things. So I want you to talk to our audience, who are all these incredible, heartwired individuals, whether you work in nonprofit social enterprise or whether you're just a fan of doing good. How do you see emotional intelligence as a tool for fostering both the accountability and empathy in organizations?
Yeah, that's such a great question. You know, emotional intelligence, and again, with that, you know, it's a piece of it doesn't mean that you're not going to have hard moments. It doesn't mean that you're not going to have challenges, difficult, you know, crisis, or you're going to not like someone you know, or have have that kind of tension in a meeting, like those things will still come up. It's about how you handle it, right? It's about how you create trust. It's about how you create that space for people to be able to open up. And I think what you touched on earlier, about curiosity, is what does that? I'll give an example, actually, just from yesterday. This happened. I work in this co-sharing space that's meant for mission driven founders. It's awesome space. And I was sitting here and I was introduced to some introduced to someone who, you know, we're having conversation about just social impact and and politics, and we have somewhat different perspectives on what's happening in the country and the world, and just where we think about things from. What was really wonderful about that conversation was that even though him and I had different perspectives on the same issue, there were no voices being raised. There were a lot more questions being asked. And what we actually did was that, when he was actually sharing something that I had no clue about, instead of wanting to knee jerk, react and say something in response to it, I simply listened and I asked questions. I could feel myself getting a little uncomfortable, because, again, right, your body is reacting to unknown threat, and even though it and it just means that it's unfamiliar, that's that's what's happening internally. So I'm aware of the fact that my body is doing this, so I'm able to, in the moment, stop myself from being impulsively reacting to something to soothe myself, and instead, I am pausing myself to say, okay, I recognize that I'm feeling uncomfortable in my body, so let me double down on this and understand him instead. So I went to that place of asking questions. You know, this is something that I actually am not familiar with. Can you explain more about this? You know, I love to learn where you found this, like, can you share the article with me? What is what is it about this that you know you are feeling so deeply connected to? So it was also where I stopped myself from asking questions from well, why do you believe this? Well, why is that important, right? So even recognizing the word because the when we use the word, why? Or if we even if I had said to him, like, you know, well, you think this way. But how do you think it makes other people feel right? Like me using the word you in that sense, it immediately sends up these walls and creates a space of, I have to now defend myself, but when I ask questions from a place out so how, what you know, walk me through this? It creates curiosity. It creates interest. The other person is now like, Oh, they're actually interested in me. They're not just trying to corner me into something, right? So there's. The difference of what happens is you go into conversations, you go into meetings, you go into decision making with a place of genuine interest and curiosity and showing the person that, hey, we can figure this out, because our goal and mission is the same thing. We all want a safer community. We all want good education, we all want better health care, but how we approach it, we clearly have different perspectives. But if I shut him down, then I shut him down from actually having a good conversation. And maybe, maybe if we, if we could have that good conversation, we might actually find some commonality there. So that's where then that accountability shows up, because I'm now role modeling how I want to be also spoken to. And so actually in that conversation, there were moments where I would say something and he would have a well, you know, this, this on the other side, right? So for every story I had, he had a counter story. So I paused there as well. And I said, okay, and can they both coexist? And so, you know, give a example of that story was we were talking about just, you know, the whole defund the police, like messaging in the PR of it, right? And I was in, you know, as mentioned, like with that, it's, there's, there's a truth in reality that Black Americans are scared when a cop stops them. And he immediately was like, Well, I know cops that are scared to stop Black Americans because, and even if they're doing something wrong, because they're afraid of getting videoed and racial profiling everything. So I paused him there, and I said, Okay, so can both coexist? And he's like, Well, yeah, of course. I'm like, okay, great. So it's not actually a story of tit for tat. It's not a well, they had this, and so we have this. It's what we're seeing here is the fact that we have two communities that are equally hurting, that are equally wounded, that are equally have a lot of mistrust. So the root of this is the fact that we need to find a place for these communities to find trust with each other. So what would that look like? So let's forget about going into the one upping each other in stories and situations, and let's get to the root of that. So that's where then we were like, Okay, what would that look like? And so that is what emotional intelligence can do in an organization, in meetings when you're having difficult conversations.
Holy heck.
I know.
This is revolutionary.
I want to respond to all of that.
I mean, y'all, I feel like we need this conversation on lots of levels, relationally, even in like our family units and our closest community, to have more productive discussions when we're coming at things from different angles. But I think of like the change makers listening to this that you're trying to translate an experience or a problem that a lot of your supporters are never gonna you know, have to face themselves, like us, dialing in and understanding how to have these kind of conversations, where we can slide into feeling, having a commonality of emotion, to understand another perspective is so powerful and so missing in so much of today's discourse.
It's okay to be uncomfortable. We have just become a culture of and maybe it's, it's, you know, millennials reacting to Baby Boomers. But now it's like, everything needs to be soothed. Everything needs to be like your feelings matter, like it's okay, it's okay, you know? And it's like, yeah, your feelings matter, including growth only happens when you're uncomfortable.
That's it. And it's like these conversations are going to be uncomfortable, these experiences are going to be uncomfortable. Let's put that on the side. But guess what? They can also be because two things can to your point can be correct. They can also help us grow. They can also widen our purview and understanding. They can also give us a greater sense of connectivity with other people. And I think even just the way that you sort of broke down that example show that your word choice matters, the way that you show up matters the way that your body is positioned, and I feel all of that as someone with one of my highest core values is fairness and justice. But I also have ADHD with the undercurrent of impulsivity. I get very triggered when things are unjust, and my impulsivity and my high emotions get triggered, and I want to react, but the reality is, if we're reacting, we are not fully tuned in and present. If we're reacting, we're preparing our rebuttal, and it just feels like we need a different language of connectivity right now, and empathy is such the great like anthropological experience, I feel like, I mean, We Are For Good the podcast, the experience has been the most eye opening anthropological experience of my life, to just sit with humans and hear their story and feel changed by them. We just have to know in this new year, in this new world and this new everything that we have the choice to move differently through it. And I just think you're giving such great tips about it. So thank you for letting me get into my podium.
I love it. Let's keep going. You know, with that, the other you touched on something really, really important is that fact of like, that impulsive, you know, response and the reaction. I think that's where we are today, because, because, you know, I I talk about this, and I'm actually working on a white paper that will, you know, I just finished my dissertation this year, so I'll work on a book later. But, like, yeah, so, like, I need a little bit bit of a break from research right now. But you know, one of the things I'm working on is just really helping people see that and understanding themselves, like, what is the intent and motivation behind your impact? Is it being led with fear or being led with empathy? And the reason why that's so important to understand and distill is because even within the nonprofit world, right, there's a lot of scarcity mindset. There's a lot of, you know, not enough mindset. And so when, when we're operating from that place which is tapping into our primal emotional response, right, of the fear of fight or flight, of, you know, crisis mode. So we're responding from a place of we're making impact, we're doing things, but we're being motivated by fear. So what are if I was to use it and compare it to, like, medical terms, right? What are the long term side effects of leading with fear, and what are the long term side effects of leading with empathy. And if we were to do a side by side comparison of that and look at, you know, whether it's organizations, whether it's communities that are operating from a place of empathy, and what that does to a community, it may be a little bit slower in the way that you know change happens, but how does that actually as just our bodies are healing. How do we heal communities that way, versus if we look at the world and the state that we're in today, this is a side effect and a long term impact of fear led, you know, impact. So when we're able to take and have more consciousness about how we're responding, right, and that reaction and everything that we're doing, what we're able to do is that once we have a good hold on, okay, it's this instinct that's acting up. It's this that's acting up, that's when we can actually elevate ourselves to like the higher emotional responses that we we are capable of getting to, but we have to be open to working through them.
Oh my gosh, some vulnerable, scary stuff that I'm here for. Just for the record.
I know you know what I kind of compare it to, like going through like, like a like, at a one of those carnival fun houses and all the funny mirrors, right? And it's like, and you're like, oh, these are all the different versions of me, like going through the mirrors.
My gosh, I just think like, you're you are tangibly expressing the values in a new lens for me over here, because we talk about play the long game, and that it dials down to like, how are we actually living out our values, like in the how, not just placards on the wall, but like in how we show up and we care about the long game of what that leads to, and also everyone matters. Like, I mean, this conversation is very much core to how we see world changing really happen. So I want to talk about cultivating empathy specifically within our organizations. I mean, what is an empathy based approach look like in practice. And you know, what are some tent poles that you'd guide us to?
Yeah. So, you know, I always think of sort of a framework. I call it reframing perspectives. And it's compassion for self, empathy for others, accountability for both. And so what I always say is that in order to actually have empathy for others, first of all, it's not about you. So don't make it about you. It doesn't involve you.
Oh my gosh, there's a TED talk right there.
So to be able to actually activate empathy in its purest form, we need to first understand and have compassion for ourselves. And what I mean by that is not just self care, and it's not just, you know, oh, like, these are my strengths and these are my weaknesses, like great, good I'm glad you know that piece, but it's also recognizing and having an understanding of what is the narrative that you're living in, and so being able to take leaders through that path. Of like, again, right? Like, it's just self awareness. It's unconscious bias. It's really understanding that, how did I come to this narrative that I am through the experiences? How do I actually sit with the uncomfortable parts of myself as well and be okay with that? Be okay with the fact that, yeah, I grew up with this, and that shaped this perspective me, and I recognize that that is not you know, that is a version, you know, or that is something that I am uncomfortable with. I can feel the uncomfort thing that's happening in my body. So when we work in organizations, it's helping first leaders to understand their nervous system. It's helping leaders to actually understand the power of just getting a hold on their reality of their you know, of the world that they live in, the language that they use, and breaking all of those pieces down. Because once we have that piece, then when we go into the space of empathy, and you're in a meeting, or you're about to come up with an initiative that you're like, how do we make this initiative so that we're more inclusive in the way that we approach different markets? Right? We look at that from a place where, then we're not taking things as a personal attack, right? If someone, if someone, has a difference of opinion from me, I'm now not going to go into a place of, oh, well, you know, I've never experienced that, so I don't know if that's real, right? We're not dismissing them, right? We get curious. And when we're in that state, that's when we're able to actively listen, when we're able to give feedback and receive feedback, right? Being we're able to put ourselves in circumstances that are just where we learning from there, and I think that that is the biggest key piece, is curiosity. The other piece is that helping leaders also recognize and differentiate empathy. So there's actually three types of empathy that exist, cognitive, emotional and compassionate, and so knowing when and how to tap into each one of those types of empathy in what type of scenarios and circumstances can also elevate the way then that you are engaging your teams, you're engaging your employees, and the way you're connecting to your clients and the relationships that you're building, because it's more genuine when you are really even aware of how you're navigating through that. From there, you're able to now actually take ownership, because you've created a space of psychological safety, you created a space of trust, and so now, because you have internal confidence, even with the insecure parts of yourself, you can claim it. You're able to then understand someone else's experience without making it about yourself, without feeling like it's a personal attack on you or your values. You know, a lot of times what happens is that when we don't do that initial work, we immediately go into a place where we take on experiences as if it's like our deep core identity. But if we can actually like, separate that that allows us to be in a place where we can, we can actually like, have healthy communication, conversation that allows us then to be in a space of like, okay, so where do we take ownership, right? So who takes ownership over this initiative? Who takes ownership over even the consequences that happen? How did I play a role in this? Instead of feeling that, oh my gosh, we made a mistake, and now, if I say anything like, the shame that shows up, the ego that shows up, like those things will still show up, but now we can actually say like, yeah, you know what? I own it like I did make a mistake here, or even my my inability to my the fact that I didn't take action is still a form of action, right? Inaction is action. And so when we can be in that space of accountability, it's really being like, Okay, so in this project, what went wrong if I recognize that if I'm a leader, I'm looking at things not just from a place of, well, you made that mistake and you did that wrong. I'm looking at it from place of what was operationally or systematically happening in the organization that I could have helped with to maybe the process was broken down somewhere that would have helped my team to be able to move the needle further. So what is my ownership as a leader in this, and what is the team's ownership in the actual tasks and work that they're doing? So it's bringing all of this together, which then creates more effective processes, productivity, trust and collaboration.
I mean, I think people came for the empathy, but what they're gonna get in this. And I don't want to be too dramatic, but I guess I am, because that's my way. Yes, I think what you were talking about, Payal, is culture shifting. I think it's human centered. I think it is baked in equity. And I think this is such a storied moment in time where I really think this should be the great practice of the sector. I think it can change and lift so much. And I want to talk about something that you're doing that's like, super operational tactical, that I think is brilliant. Tell us about these pop up gatherings, like these empathy pop up gatherings. What do those look like? And how are you getting people together?
Yeah, so, you know, before I do go there, I want to share just one quick story. When we're talking about even just empathy and the nonprofit sector, you know, I think that there is an empathy overload, right in the sense where, that's why people are in that, you know, that space. But I will say that I think that there's also when you have empathy paired with scarcity, it creates, you know, lack of boundaries. It creates guilt. It creates, you know, that space of overwhelm or shame because I'm not doing enough. I should be doing more. You know, if I, if I care about wanting to make a little bit more money, I should feel ashamed for that, because money should not be tied to the good work. But I look at this as you're doing incredible work, you should be valued for that. And it also, you know, why? Again, back to the whole coexistence piece. Doing good work doesn't mean that you can't also take care of your own livelihood, you know, and they can co exist. And I think that that's also just an important piece. And the second part of that empathy in our work that we do, you know, just talking specifically about a A, it's on a nonprofit, but Starbucks, for example. And so Starbucks, you know, they started coming into the South Side of Chicago, and they were, they put their first Starbucks in a place and in the south side of Chicago, in a neighborhood, and it was doing really badly. And the reason and and they were first going to pull it, but then someone on their team actually said, maybe we need to actually go into the neighborhood and actually understand the community, right? So you're in the south side of Chicago, you're in a neighborhood that is, you know, very ethnic, and they have their specific pastries, they have their specific things that they do. So Starbucks was irrelevant to them, because they don't have anything at Starbucks that they would actually eat or that they enjoy. So what did Starbucks do? They switched out their pastries and their food for the food of the local community that is now one of the top performing Starbucks in the world. And the reason why because they use an empathy approach marketing, right? They in focus meetings and and use empathy to inform the way then that they sell their products. So now to answer your actual your question about the pop ups. So couple things, you know, the the thing that I actually started this year was the RK change maker intimate dinner experiences. And these change maker dinner experiences have been I, you know, host them in Chicago, in DC, in New York, and, you know, hosting them all across and what it is is bringing together about eight change makers at any given time. And these eight change makers, when they come here, the rules are that you're not allowed to talk about work, you're not allowed to talk about what you do, and you're not allowed to talk about your title or anything related to that. And you can imagine, people who care about social impact are like dying to talk about this. So I, you know, in one of them, I joked, and I said I should have a buzzer on the side where anyone says something, I just put a buzzer, yeah. But the point of this experience is that it's bringing people together so that we get to know the human behind the work. And so our entire conversation throughout this is that I started with navigating who you are thinking about memories from childhood. Like, think about a time when you know a childhood that puts a big smile on your face, and it was really pivotal to everything you know that you believe in. Or, what is a grandparent that you feel such deep like connection to and you want to carry their legacy on? Like, what is that legacy that you want to carry on about your grandparent, things like that, and we kind of like inch towards it. And what's so beautiful about those moments is that by the time we get to talking about what each person does for work, it's not till dessert or even after that. And I go around the room and I'll ask, you know everyone so what do you think, Jon does, you know? And everyone will say what they what they think Jon does, and then Jon will say it. Some people are way off, and some people are like, really on it. And the what's so beautiful about that moment is that they've only met Jon for two and a half hours, and now after Jon says what he does, they're like, oh my god. That makes so much sense for you, like that, of course. He would do that. It's like they've known Jon their entire life. And when it comes around, what's also really interesting is that, because we've been so immersed into just developing connection and relationship, when we get to Jon saying what he does, more than likely he's gonna forget what he does. He like, wait, what do I do again? Like, oh, yeah, that's right. Because you're not connecting from an elevator pitch. We're not being on. We're literally just talking and connecting based off of like personal human being, like and showing how we're all connected. And what's so beautiful about that is I had a dinner experience that I hosted, and at the table I had a Pakistani civil rights lawyer who's a refugee. I had a Jewish woman, I had a Black American, I had a very, you know, a white Christian, all sitting at this table. They didn't initially, I mean, obviously, with ethnicities you can tell, but like, overall, you couldn't really tell where they stood politically, you couldn't tell where they, you know, stood in terms of their work, but people were connecting with each other based off of this commonality of just the good of their experiences of, oh, my God, you grew up there, so did I, you know, and talking about that part. And so what happened was, by the time that they actually shared who they are, what work they do. It didn't matter if someone was a Republican or Democrat. It didn't matter if someone was a civil rights lawyer, and you had a Muslim and a Jewish woman sitting right next to each other, and they were sharing so much with each other. It, it didn't matter. And if we had started it with this is who I am, and this is what I do. It would have just, it would have refrained that conversation so much more.
Yeah, it would have.
Yeah. So the change maker dinners are a place to kind of cultivate natural community. But from that, you know, I think the pop ups that you're also alluding to are things that it's still in the works, and it's still something that's going to be launching a little bit down the road, but starting with micro pop ups, and what it is is taking a social issue that we have in our world and having people actually experience it by walking through so think of it as escape room meets cultural IKEA. The only way out is to go through the whole thing.
Cultural IKEA.
It's a maze and you have to go through it. But if we were to take a specific social issue like homelessness or, you know, even prison reform, right? So imagine walking through this experience, and the first room is where you're set up to experience what it's like to be set up to fail the system. So you're already from the beginning, you know you have to go through a series of games or experiences in that first room that has set you up to there's no way out besides ending up in prison. And so the second room then is you're actually experiencing what it's like to be in prison, and you're hearing the voices, you're hearing the screaming, you're smelling things, all of it. Then the third room, which is the most pivotal room, is you're then experiencing what it's like to try to get out of the system, but everything is stacked against you. And so then, after going through this experience, and what I will say that, you know, a lot of pop ups and immersives, they you go through an experience, but then you're left to process it on your own. And what happens is, it's heavy. You don't have the tools on how to process this or understand it. So you walk out, you're like, whoa. That was so amazing. Oh my gosh, let's go get some pizza. And so that fourth room is where I'm partnering with nonprofits. I'm partnering with philanthropic foundations, I'm partnering with, you know, cities and universities, and essentially it's having people come into this fourth room where we now sit around, and you're met with someone who's actually lived the life you've just experienced, and has a conversation, shares with you. This is my story. Shares the story. And then from there, it's having, you know, the partnered organizations that we're partnering with, they come out and now walk you through a journey map, meeting you where you're at, if you're just kind of getting woken up to this concepts, ideas, you know you're starting to recognize as CSI and Brooklyn Nine, nine aren't exactly factual. And you're like, Okay, so this is the reality of it. So what can be that one micro thing that could change? What is that one micro behavior that could shift right and helping you, meet you where you're at with this. So my goal with this is, you know, for nonprofits to actually bring us in and have your donors go through this experience, so then they understand why. It's not just about writing a check, but actually getting immersed into why your organization needs to exist. It's partnering with universities so that future decision makers who are going to become lawyers, psychologists, policy workers, they're going through this experience, and at the end, they're actually writing a treatment plan. They're writing a policy. They're they're thinking about, you know, if I was a judge, how would I now, like, you know, navigate this based off of what I just experienced? So we're shifting the way people think we're shifting and trying to break stereotypes and stigma, and we're shifting, hopefully, the way people ultimately, start to get educated about policy and the way they vote.
Positively obsessed with this concept, and count us in as your number one rabid fans on bringing this to life, truly, I think you planted a lot of seeds here, of just like, what's possible when we put it into practice. We don't just like talk about it, but how do we create these moments of collision that for good, just this conversation has been amazing. My friend and I want to ask you about story as we start to wind down, because we believe in stories that really shape our experience, you've brought us back into a lot of them on your journey so far, would you take us to a moment of philanthropy that sticks out to you? Like, when have you seen generosity and you're like, man, that just pinged you in a certain way that has stuck with you over the years?
So I'll actually share a story that happened to me and this has led me in the way then I think about helping and supporting other social impact change makers in the work that they're doing. So when I moved to, I moved to Chicago in 2016 and I moved there with a job and everything, and four months later, you know, I was out of a job. It was a horrible, bad fit, and they relocated me everything. But, you know, new city, don't know anyone, nothing. So could have very easily flipped out, but did I was like, All right, well, got nothing to lose. Let's see what I can make happen here. I met a woman who's a nonprofit founder for you know, 20 plus years highly, highly respected, really, has created an incredible legacy. I met her in December of 2016 and she was speaking on at some women in tech thing. I'd never known her. She was walking off stage. I dart for her, and I connect with her, and immediately go up to him like I just meeting you. I loved everything you said. I connect with it, because the group that you're supporting is the group that I used to work with when I was a therapist. Can I have lunch with you? Well, that lunch that I had with her in January, and I remember it was January 11, January 11, 2017 because it was on my birthday. So when we had lunch, it was a three hour lunch. After that, we geeked out every quarter and just nerded out on just existential topics, on social justice, all this stuff. Fast forward to 2019 when I was actually leaving my last corporate job, and I was filling out this entire vision to her, and it was telling her what I want, and I was leaving corporate, she said to me that the number one reason that people end up going back into corporate is because of health care, and I actually have multiple autoimmune issues. So she knew how important health insurance was for me. So she said, Payal, I believe in this vision so much, and I believe in you so much. I want you to make this come true. I don't want you going back to corporate. I'm going to cover your health insurance through my organization so you can actually fulfill this. And so for four years, she covered my health insurance just so that I would have some form of stability, so that I would actually do the work that I promised, that I was going to fulfill. And at that moment, it was how can I not believe in myself if I have someone of this like to me, she's more than an angel on Earth. She's a mentor, she's a second mother, she's a friend, she's she's just so much, and I'm not a unique story for like this. She's done things like that for other people, but for me, it was what set me on this path.
Okay, normally I would have you name this person so we could honor them, but I want to respect the anonymity here, but I just want to point out what I love so much about that story is that she used this empathy based approach with you to drive you toward building this empathy movement that is oh so beautiful, and that is the power I believe, in the practice of empathy. It's not to drive home your points. It's about seeing the beauty and the quirky, nerdy differences in every single one of us, celebrating where we are getting more understanding and openness to it, and wow, look what happens when you can double down into it. I think you're such a beautiful success story of that. And we honor your angel mentor, wherever she is, and thank her for that. Payal you listen to the podcast before you know we're going to end with a one good thing. How are you going to bring it all home and wrap a bow around this? What's your one good thing?
Just be curious and just be, you know, be patient with yourself. Be kind to yourself. Be patient with others. Recognize that when people are talking, and even if they're speaking with a lot of intensity, it's coming from a place of just not being heard, not being seen, you know, a woundedness when we approach each other. The best way that we can approach each other and when we, especially if we are on, you know, opposite sides of each other is, don't come at it within with antagonizing. Don't antagonize, right? Come at it with genuine curiosity and interest and care, when we antagonize the other person, when we immediately, even if you think that the leader of the other person's community is just garbage or this and that, right? And you want to say those things, you're immediately shutting down any place of like, of connection
Common ground. That's it.
So you because what you're doing is, then you're insulting them, because people have started to take on the identity of that if you're insulting this leader, you're insulting me, because I believe in that, and now I'm going to be shamed. So approach it with just be mindful of the words that you're using and how you're connecting.
I mean, what wisdom to round out this episode, my friend, you've brought so much to the table. Thank you for your openness, your vulnerability in this conversation. Just the years that you've spent pouring into this and coming to us with such an actionable way that we can, you know better, lean into empathy this year in our work and our families and just our everyday conversations. How can folks connect with you Payal? I mean, you're on Instagram. I know you're on LinkedIn. You're sharing all of this wisdom. What's the best way for people to reach out to you and follow you online?
Yeah, absolutely. So of course, yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. That's probably the where I'm the most active. And obviously you can connect with me on my website with RKempathy.com, and tune into my podcast that's released, releasing January 15. It's called Reframing Perspectives with Payal Beri. So tune into that, and can't wait to, you know, have more of this dialog. And can't wait to have you guys on on the episodes.
Thank you for the invitation.
So honored.
So honored. I just, I just think about little dreamy Payal, like 10 years old, thinking she wants to, you know, look through the HVAC system at someone. And I think that you have moved
In a non creepy way, shockingly enough.
Totally non creepy way,
Non voyeuristic, not stalker.
But, you set this table, almost literally and metaphorically for us to just allow people to come in as their true selves, and you've done it with curiosity, with joy, kindness. I really believe this is such a big disruptor for this year. I hope this is spoken to you community. Let's actively listen. Let's have an openness to 2025 for ourselves and for others. We can be the ripple of empathy that this world needs, and we do need you in it, so please go check out Payal. I want to give one more plug for her Instagram, which is fantastic. And please listen to the podcast. And happy late birthday or early birthday later this week, my friend.
