The Washington Post had an article titled, Why can't we hate men? A huffington post editor said her new year's resolution was kill all men. You can buy T shirts that say things like so many men so little ammunition. There are books coming out with titled like the end of men, and no good men, and even our men necessary
hi friends welcome back to another episode of ideas have consequences the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. If this is your first time listening, we are so happy that you are joining us for a quick summary of what to expect. On this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be God's hands and feet to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of permission. And today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. And just as an FYI, before we jump into this episode, unfortunately, my dad's got Alan's mic had some issues this week, so we had to use a backup audio file for him. So please give us grace as we have a slightly different sound this week. Thanks again for joining us, and I hope you enjoyed today's discussion.
Welcome again to another episode of ideas have consequences. It's the podcast at the disciple nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen. I'm the president the DNA and I'm joined today by Darrow Miller and Luke Allen and our very special guest today. And I emphasize the word very is Nancy Pearcey. Nancy, it's great to have you back on again. Thanks for joining us.
Well, thank you for inviting me. I always enjoy talking to you guys. Oh,
well. It's mutual. Yeah. This Nancy second stand to be on our podcasts. And so we're thrilled to have you back, Nancy, for those who missed the first episode that where we interviewed Nancy, about her book, Love thy body. I'm just going to give a quick introduction, Nancy, you can certainly add more as you as you wish. But again, Nancy is considered to be America's preeminent evangelical Protestant, female intellectual and I agree with that. She has been a visiting scholar at Biola University's Torrey honors Institute, which was a huge blessing to my daughter. And she's currently a professor of apologetics and scholar in residence at Houston Baptist University. Nancy was a friend of DeRose at the library fellowship in Switzerland many years ago
when we were young. Nancy is still young, but I've aged.
So both Darrow and Nancy know each other from from that time and Lubri studying under Francis Schaeffer, and Nancy has her master's degree from covenant Theological Seminary and has studied worked on our postgraduate work from the Institute of Christian studies in Toronto. Anyways, Nancy, you I think, you know, I've mentioned the last time we talked to you just how much you've impacted each one of us in our ministry, we consider you this isn't the best word but it's, it's you know, it's it fits in some ways, are you a guru, you're our guru. You're our worldview guru. I, especially for me, I just I have just been so helped by your books. Especially for me, the one that I just love is finding truth five principles for unmasking, unmasking, atheism, secularism and other gods substitute, which was kind of a follow up to your your best selling book, total truth. And so for those who aren't familiar with Nancy, she's, she's probably the clearest thinking, most articulate thinker out there on the issues of biblical worldview, cultural matters, and, you know, the ashes and uncanny ability to kind of hold them up side by side and compare and contrast and, and also just to really get back to the roots of these ideas, what what are the roots, where did they come from, and explain that in a really clear and, you know, just it's kind of a non academic yet non academic way. So, Nancy, we want to talk to you about your new book. That's, it's, I believe it's out is it out? No, no, it's
out June 27.
June 27.
We're actually yeah, we're actually going to release this podcast on that week. So it's, we can just say it's coming out this week.
Okay. Yeah. And Amazon christianbook.com. Any a place that you prefer to buy your books?
Yeah, the title of the new book is a toxic the toxic war on masculinity, how Christianity reconciles the sexes. As? And would you say it's a follow up to your previous book, Love thy body? Or how do you relate? It seems to me we're writing on worldview and ideas, and now you're writing on issues of sex and gender, you know, a bit more of late here, which is so important. So,
yes, yes, well, actually, to my great surprise, it turns out that my current book on masculinity is more controversial than my book love my body, which surprised me because love my body covers things like homosexuality and transgenderism. And the hookup culture, I thought that would be my most controversial book. But in in Christian circles, at least, this book has proved to be more controversial. There's my, my young female students, in a sense, I teach now at Houston Christian University, I get to bounce my ideas off my students, and the female students almost all identify as feminists. And if you say anything good about men, then they get triggered. And they say, Well, if I say men are strong, they say, Well, women are strong, too. Well, yes, they are. And on the other hand, by the men, the male students do feel as if feminism has kind of made it a created a hostile environment for men, one of my students, when I when I announced that, that I was writing a book on masculinity, he said, what masculinity, it's been beaten out of us. So that's the response I've been getting. And you might have noticed, for International Women's Day, this was not too long ago. So this is not in the book, because it's more recent. But there was a survey done in Britain, where 55% of men said that, and this is the quote, society has gone so far in promoting women's rights, that it is now discriminating against men. 55% of men agreed with that statement. So whether you agree or not, that's a lot of men who do feel like they are being disenfranchised today that they're being denigrated and demeaned. And so that was part of why I wanted to write this book is to address you know, Where's this coming from? I loved what you said, Scott, when you said, when you said I like to trace ideas to where they came from. That's exactly what this book is about. Where did the idea of toxic masculinity even come from? We were going to be able to respond better if we look at where it came from and how it developed.
Let me let's jump in. Nancy, and you were an almost surprised when Scott linked the two books in our minds, and why? That's the question, why did you write these two books on love your body and toxic masculinity? Because in my point, from my point of view, they're dealing with similar subjects? Why Yeah,
well, certainly, certainly one reason that I wanted to add our masculinity is that it has become so socially acceptable to attack men to express hostility. I read an article in the Washington Post. In other words, these are not fringe, not fringe publications, The Washington Post had an article titled, Why can't we hate men? And you know, really, you can just say that publicly. A huffington post editor said her new year's resolution was kill all men. You can buy T shirts that say things like so many men, so little ammunition. There are books coming out with titles like the end of men, and no good men, and even men necessary. So Oh, and even men are joining in this, this surprised to be even more, but you probably saw this with like director of Avatar came out saying testosterone is a toxin. Do you remember that it was so several months ago now. But the director of Avatar the movie said, testosterone is a toxin. And another famous person was the best selling science fiction writer, Hugh Howey. Who said, testosterone is the problem, women should be in charge of everything. And other male authors said, talking about healthy masculinity is like talking about healthy cancer. really can. This is where we are now where it is acceptable to attack men like that. It's time for us to make a response. It's time to look at you know, the actual data. And that was the second reason I wrote the book is that When you look at the data coming out of the social sciences, it's not it's, it's not really that bad. In fact, it's very positive, especially of Christian men. If you'd like, Would you like me to go that direction now?
Yeah, I thought those studies were so interesting. That just you never hear them. But reading through them and your book was the first time I had they make sense. Obviously, God's design for how we should live is the one that actually comports and works in reality, but you just don't hear the studies. So, so you highlighted those really nicely for us.
Yes, and that was really the final trigger to write the book because I thought shoot people, people do not know this, even Christians don't. Well, and let me preface that too, by saying that, when we talk about public attacks on men, the most common target is Christian men. Because if, if men have any notion of authority, or to use a biblical term headship in the home, it is set, they are said to be obviously oppressive. Tie radical patriarchs. I, it was very easy. It was a just go online and find examples. I found plenty of examples like this, I'll just read you a few of them. Conservative Protestant gender ideology can clearly lead to abuse, both physical and emotional. And another one said, It's no secret that abuse is prevalent in conservative churches that embrace headship theory, or another one. The theology of male headship feeds the rape culture, that we see permeating American Christianity today. So exhibit a of toxic masculinity is Christian men. And that's why it was so surprising when I actually began to read the sociological literature's psych psychologists and sociologists who were doing the studies, they found the exact opposite. They found that, in fact, Christian men who are committed, you know, authentic, attend church regularly test out as the most loving and engaged husbands. And by the way, they, they do survey the wives separately, which is important. The wives themselves say that they test out as the happiest in terms of being happy with their husbands expressions of love and affection. They are the most engaged fathers in terms of the time they spend both both in shared activities like church, youth group, or sports. And in discipline, like setting bedtime or setting limits on screen time. They are actually the least likely to divorce less, less likely than secular men. And they are the least they have the lowest grades of domestic violence of any group in America. This was Dening. Nobody knows this, nobody knows that even a job.
It goes so counter to the cultural narrative, doesn't it? Yeah, completely,
completely. I mean, I had to go digging for this. You know, that's why I'm writing the book. Because I had to dig for it. And I had to look at the academic literature. I know, I had to go through academic journals and find this material. And, you know, there's about a dozen, I would say, different sociologists who are all working on this issue because it here's what's happened. You know, they looked at these these charges as these accusations against Christian men, and they said, okay, so where's the data? Where's your evidence? And it turns out, there's there isn't any evidence that Christian men are worse. The evidence actually goes the other direction. Let me let me give you one quote, I love giving you a specific quote that you could kind of hang your hat on. This was a my go to sociologists. The one I liked the most is Brad Wilcox. He's considered one of the top marriage sociologists in the nation. He often gets published in places like the New York Times and The Washington Post. And he teaches at UVA, the University of Virginia. He started the Institute for Family Studies there. At any rate, he was he was quoted in the New York Times. This was Valentine's Day. And so for Valentine's Day, they got an article from a progressive writer who said, Oh, progressive marriages are much happier. You know, we should all be progressive. And so Brad Wilcox will response and here's what he said. Yes, yes, progressive marriages are happier than the average. But let me show you my evangelical marriages. It to J curve, you know, it goes it goes way up. In terms of spouses being happy in evangelical couples, oh, by the way, Brad Wilcox himself was Catholic. So in a sense he does, he doesn't have a dog in this fight. He wasn't setting out to prove that evangelicals are, you know, are better. But here's, here's what he said in that article. He said, it turns out that the happiest of all wives in America are religious conservatives, but at least 73% of wives who hold conservative gender ideology, values, values, and attend religious services regularly with their husbands have high quality marriages, that the happiest of all wives in America are religious conservatives who attend church regularly with their husbands. Now, nobody knows this. If this gets published in the New York Times, which I thought was amazing that they would cover this, they would actually allow him to say that.
Yes, that's pretty stunning. Wow.
There's so many ways to go here, Nancy, I mean, I can pick up on what you just said. There are two things that I picked up earlier that we could go back to. I'll pick up what with what you just said. You mentioned in the church that in the book, The controversy among Christians, so the response to the book, and then you went to your students at Houston Christian University, and it sounds like both men and women, young Christians responded in a similar way. But my guess is if the women that were talked about in this article, you just read conservative Christian women read your book, they would probably be thrilled by what you said.
Yeah, it was it was fun reading Brad Wilcox, because, you know, he, he's outside of sort of the the evangelical ghetto, so to speak. And so he was addressing non Christians who said, Well, wait a minute, actually, I had a friend who said this as a secular friend, who said, Wait a minute, maybe this is self selection. Maybe it's good guys go to church. Which raises actually another question, well, why would church be attractive to the good guys? But Brad Wilcox actually sort of unpacks it for his secular readers, he said, Don't actually going to church has a positive benefit. Let me explain this to you. It's kind of funny watching him. And he says, going to church actually exposes men to messages that say, the family was created by God. It's not some kind of an evolutionary accident. It's not just a social construct. A church tells them that they're accountable to before God for how they treat their family, their their wives and children. Church Church gives men the opportunity to interact with other men, who also care about their family and can encourage them and support them, like you know, peer support, in terms of caring about their family and their marriages. Here's how I'll give you another quote. He says the church is one of the few institutions in the United States, where men encounter other men who are interested in talking about fatherhood and marriage and interested in practicing what they hear preached. You don't find it at work. You don't find it at the sports stadium. You don't find it in the local tavern. But in church, what you will find is a message and an ethos that is family focused and gives men the motivation to attend to their families. And he ends up by again, addressing secular academics, you know, these are his peers, the secular academics, and he says to them, you, you academics, you need to cast aside your prejudices about religious conservatives and evangelicals in particular, you need to be open to the idea that actually theologically conservative Protestant, family men, that's his phrase, are consistently the most active and expressive fathers and the most emotionally engaged husbands. So the bottom line is that Christianity now we have empirical evidence now, Christianity has the power to overcome toxic behavior in and we should be bold about bringing it into the public square as a solution to the charge of toxic masculinity.
Let me respond to that point. Nancy It seems to me that secularism or atheism, produces pagan sexuality, which is considered normal in the world today. I read an article this weekend that the United Nations is there's some academics at the United Nations who are writing a paper to begin to legitimize PDF philia. To make it we've known for years, it's the next thing coming. And now there's academic publications around legitimizing PTFE, really making it normal. So atheism and secularism tends to produce in my mind pagan sexuality. And it is Judeo Christian theism that produces a deviant sexuality to watch normal today. And that is what we need to be holding up. So when I read, you know, in your book you were talking about the good man, and the virtuous man, you were giving labels, says something that need to be labeled more commonly. Because our culture's are shaped by the words that we use. And we think of toxic masculinity, we think of sexism. These are the matriarchy, patriarchy is all negative, this is all negative. And you've analyzed this profoundly. And how do we begin to change the language within the church culture, and within Christian institutions, to use the language of deviant sexuality to make virtuous masculinity and the good man, the language of the day?
Yeah, I found that I had to start my book with a particular study that that kind of disarmed the critics, you know, my students would go home and tell their their spouses or their parents that we were going through a book, I taught a class on my book when it was in manuscript form. And, and when they talk to people outside, the response was always whose side? Is she on? The first response? Invariably, whose side is she on? You know, is she a male bashing feminist? You know, she, she's some reactionary, you know, who's defending men. And, and so it turned out that I had a really good study that kind of disarmed the critics and helped them to see you don't have you don't have to be either for or against masculine energy wholesale, because there are different definitions of masculinity. There was a sociologist named Michael Kimmel, who's written some really good books on the history of men, by the way. And he has, he's so well known that he travels all around the world speaking on topics of masculinity. And he devised a very clever experiment where he would ask young men two questions. First, she'd say, what is a good man? You know, if you're at a funeral, and in the eulogy, they say he was a good man who was a good man. Yeah. What, what does that mean? And all around the world, you know, from Australia, to Switzerland to Ecuador, whatever. Men had no trouble answering that. Honor, duty, sacrifice, do the right thing. Stand up for the little guy. I kind of like their own, stand up for the little guy. Be generous, be responsible, be a provider be a protector. They had no difficulty with this. And so the Michael Kimmel, the sociologists would say to them, Well, how do you know that? Where'd you get that? And they would say, well, it's just in the air we breathe. And especially in Judeo Christian, you know, in Western cultures, they would say it's part of our Judeo Christian heritage. And then he would follow up, he would say, Okay, fine. What does it mean? If I say to you, man up, be a real man. And they, the young man would say, oh, no, no, that's completely different. Yeah. And I'm going to read their exact words because I want you to hear what they what they said. They said, that means be tough, strong. Never show weakness when at all cost. Suck it up, play through pain, be competitive, get rich get laid. So in other words, these are the traits that most of us do associate with the word toxic
masculinity right?
but we also think of toxic masculinity as normal. But it's not. What you know. So I've traveled around the world everywhere I've gone, I've seen what you know, is hypersexuality, toxic masculinity and cultures all over the world, it is the norm. And it's even within the church.
Yes, yes.
That's not denying all the research you've done?
Oh, well, actually, some of the research I did was international. And I was really encouraged by that research as well. Because the research showed that, again, that evangelical Christianity has an impact on that toxic masculinity wherever it appears. So I had three, I had three different studies, one was just was just Colombia, it was just a smaller study. But it was by a sociologist who started out as a Marxist. You know, assuming that religion would be, you know, the open the opium of the people. But what she found was that when a man in that in that Hispanic culture with his machismo, yes, concept of masculinity, well, that man becomes a Christian, an evangelical Christian, he stops drinking, stops gambling, she stops going to prostitutes, gets a job, and supports his family. And she says it's a complete a complete turnaround in his values. He says, she says, this is her name is Elizabeth Brusco. And she's written a book, in which she says that Christianity turns machismo on his head, and turns men's hearts to the families, so to speak. And then there was a much larger study done by a sociologist at the University of London, her name was Bernice Martin. And she went across Asia and Africa as well. And she said everywhere Christianity goes, it changes men. She calls it she calls it the gender, the gender paradox, because she said it's paradoxical to Westerners, because Westerners think that Christianity transmitted into oppressive patriarchy. But in fact, in reality, everywhere I go, she said, you know, across the non western cultures, Christianity actually turns men into loving, engaged husbands and fathers, especially in terms of this, the more traditional male vices, quote, unquote, like drinking and adultery, and so on. And then the third one is she's I think she was really smart and was, I think, a fairly liberal Christian. So and then the third study was by a New York Times columnist, now, you wouldn't expect a New York Times columnist, to be friendly to Christianity at all. But it's in a best selling book called Half the Sky, half the sky. And it's, it's some, I think, Chinese proverb about women holding up half the sky. And he acknowledges that we're a Christian missionaries go, that's where men change. Men start caring about their families. Men start pouring their money, you're taking the money, instead of spending it on entertainment and Alcohol and Drugs and prostitutes. They bring their money home, to their families, their families, standard of living goes up the whole family benefits. And he says, especially he's the one who actually said, especially in Africa, alcoholism and adultery are great causes of suffering for women for wives. And, and I actually have a I actually met a young man from South Africa who, who told me Oh, yeah, absolutely. In South Africa, if you if a man is not having sex with many women, he's considered less of a man. He must be he must commit adultery. Yeah, always less than a man.
But I love I love Nancy, how you you mentioned are the study mentioned Christian missionaries bringing the message with the Bible, and how it had a profound change on men, but also on society, of course, on families and society. That's discipling nations. That's why we're the disciple nations Alliance. We, we want to see those kind of powerful biblical ideas penetrating into cultures.
Yeah, yes. In fact, one, I think, one of those sociologists said, you know, if you want a real women's movement, it's not the secular women's movement. It's not even the liberal Christian, liberal Christian movement. It's the evangelical Christian movement that has actually helped women helped the SLUB woman more than any other movement out there. And she says I realize this is paradoxical to many Westerners, but it's the fact that these quote unquote, backward, unsophisticated Christians are the ones who are actually helping women the most
powerful, Luke, yeah, yeah, I
just I sense a conflict here, though, Nancy, because on one hand, you're saying how, you know, Christianity has helped so many families, so many children, because the men are, you know, actually being virtuous, strong man. But then, on the other hand, you said, this is the most amongst Christian circles, this has been one of the most controversial that you've that you've written, why are these Christians having this push back to your book?
Right. So we've all heard that Christians divorce at the same level as everyone else, you know, the rest of society. When I looked up that that stat, I was told that this statistic is one of the most widely used statistics by Christian leaders. I guess they're trying to motivate us, it turns out, it's false. But the only way we know that is because the researchers went back to the data. And they separated out the truly committed authentic Christian evangelical family men, the ones who attend church regularly, and the nominal Christian men. In America, in particular, there are a lot of nominal Christian men. My students didn't even know what that word meant. So I have to explain. Nominal comes from the Latin word, NOM means name. So it means in name only. So these are Christian. These are people who claim the label of evangelical and Christian, and they hang around the fringes of the Christian world enough to pick up terms like headship and submission, but not enough to get the biblical meaning of those terms. And so they, the statistics on these men is actually quite shocking. They are the least loving husbands, their wives report the lowest level of happiness in their marriage, they are the least engage with their children, they are more likely to divorce even more likely than secular men. And they have the highest rates of domestic violence of any group in America higher than secular men.
Most researchers are lumping them together with Evangelicals because they both say we're Christians. It's interesting. Yeah,
this I think is this is you've hit on the issue between your statement and what I've observed, as I've traveled for 40 years around the world. And that is seldom do we make the distinction between the professing Christian, the evangelical Christian, and those who proclaim to be Christians. And I think if you do that, I am reflecting. I've been with pastors with churches with church, Christians all over the world and with women, Christian women are professed Christian women. And I don't hear what you're describing, because I think what you're describing is what should become normal as the Gospel goes out, and so it's this difference between the words you just use Nancy, I don't know, nominal, Christians and convicted Christians. I think that's the difference between those two groups is radical.
Yes, go ahead. Yeah. I wanted to kind of go a little bit of a different direction.
Can we finish that point that I like to finish that point? Because I think that's so important. Yeah, so these nominal Christian men are men who, you know, in a survey, you know, when a sociologist goes out and does a survey, they might check the Baptist box, right, because of their family and their cultural background. Right, but they don't have a real, a genuine conviction. And I always thought that, well, you and I probably hang out mostly with very committed Christian men. So I thought nominals were a fairly small group. But at least according to one study, I read No, they are not small, not in America, because America has had more of a cultural Christianity than many other nations do. And so we actually have, it's about the same size committed Christian men and nominal Christian men are about the same size. So if you meet someone who identifies as an evangelical Christian, you have a 5050 chance that he really is just a nominal and Brad Wilcox associate We'll just I mentioned earlier, who's done the most work on this topic, wrote an article for Christianity today, in which he said, the most violent husbands in America with the word V, italicized, the most violent husbands in America are evangelical Protestant men who attend church rarely, if at all. So I don't want to leave this topic without saying, This is what the church is up against that we do have men who hang around the fringes of the Christian world who identify as Christians, but who are actually taking terms like headship and infusing them with a secular definition of entitlement and power and control, and dominance and so on. And so, in a, in a sense, I think, Scott, you were saying this, when we, when we put these two groups together, we we get very skewed statistics. And that's the, you know, the nominals are essentially ruined, ruining the reputation of all evangelical Christians. Yeah, the church is up against.
I would like to just say to the DNA listening audience here, get Nancy's book, but also write to us. And if you're from wherever you're from, write to us and let us know your observation about this part of the conversation. What are you witnessing among Christians in your setting? Where where are you from? And what are you what are you see, that would be very helpful, I think, for both Nancy and I, as we engage in this subject.
And that book is the toxic war on masculinity. And so yeah, I want to encourage people to get Nancy, I love intellectual history, I want to go back to where these ideas came from. Let me just put my cards on the table a little bit, I have a real heart for especially young men in our culture, right now, I am brokenhearted about the state of young men. Because, you know, so many that I know, personally, they grew up in fatherless homes. Because of the skyrocketing divorce rates from the 1970s. Forward, they've not had examples in the home of what it means to be a man. They don't know. And then the culture, when from and this is the part that I'd like to probe with you a little bit of wind from being you know, this kind of the feminist movement, which is, you know, whatever a man can do, a woman could do equally well or better, to having a positively or I should say, positive or hostile view of man like that, that seems more recent, just this really, you know, that you are going with going back to your earlier quotes about, you know, gotta kill men, or whatever it is. This seems kind of new. And I, anyways, I'm just thinking about the young man, I know growing up in a culture that has that message. And I'm also angry very often that in evangelical circles, like, like our evangelical universities, that narrative is taken such hold that that seems, seemed to dominate the minds of our young Christian people. But where did that where does that come from Nancy? And you know, as you trace these ideas back, this strong kind of really strong hatred, I guess, towards men or masculinity.
Yeah, it goes a lot further back than most people realize. And that was another reason I wanted to write this book is to help people trust it, trace it back. I'm glad you like intellectual history, because I am absolutely convinced, you know, Darrow, this was one of the reasons that shaper was so influential that he said, you have, you have to understand where ideas come from, you know, the whole history of Western intellectual, intellectual thought and culture.
Right? We we believe ideas have consequences. But we're also very interested in where they come from to so
like, well, the earlier ideas have consequences for today. So you start to see that right. Now, you start to see the rhetoric change. After the industrial revolution, we have to go that far back because in colonial times, most economic work was done in the home. You know, it was done in the family on the family farm or in the family industry. The father worked alongside his wife and children. He was training his children in adult skills. And so her house
was above the shop, the carpentry shop or the little grocery store. Their house was upstairs. The shop was downstairs.
Yes, yes, yes. When I was a child we live in Germany and it was still that way. It was fun to see is very much still family industries once you got outside of the big city. Yeah, so what that means is that the the script for masculinity focused a lot more On caretaking, you know you're working with your wife, you need to be gentle with her, you're working with your kids, you need to be patient with them. And so that in the colonial era that the model for manhood focus a lot on caretaking. In fact, fathers were encouraged to be not only fathers of their families, but fathers of the community, that was a phrase often used, we were supposed to bring your father and your father and characteristics into your relationship with the community. And of course, men also had the more traditional masculine virtues, because they were making their way in a wilderness, that they had to have courage and resilience and strength, because there were always new new fields to plow, new businesses to build new cities to build, and so on.
And you had to bring your virtue into the workplace, exactly about a moral element into the whole history of business and manufacturing.
Exactly, well, as long as it was located in around the home, even on a farm. So sometimes it's outbuildings in and around the home, it was very much integrated, you know, integrated with the family integrated with your with your understanding of Christianity, like you say, with a moral vision. And this all began to change at the industrial revolution when work was taken out of the home. Of course, men had to follow their work out of the home, into factories and offices. And for the first time, they were not working with people that they loved, and had a moral bond with. Instead, they were working as individuals in competition with other men. And this is when you begin to see the little language change. And people didn't like the change that they were seeing in men. They said men are becoming self interested, aggressive, assertive, greedy, acquisitive. The language describing men begins to turn negative for the first time. Because people didn't like the fact that men were changing as because it will no longer be embedded within a family throughout the day. And even the concept of fatherhood changed, because you know, men have gone all day you mentioned Scott, Father fatherless families, well, you actually start to see the concern, even back then, because boys were effectively fatherless most of the week. It will home on the weekends.
That's so interesting, Nancy, that so much of this comes to that industrial revolution, and just that shift in moving men out of the home and into a workplace where they're separated from their families. That's fascinating
that change occurred because there's a cultural shift effected what was happening, you went from the family, the industry, the shoemaker, the, the carpenter, to now you started creating factories. And the culture shifted that allowed that depersonalization, the industrial Pete depersonalization, that took place in the modern industrial nature and in the family. So there was a cultural shift to
precisely when work was taken out of the home and large factories were created in large banks and large industries and academia and government. This entire public realm developed, and many people began to say, well, the public realm should be run by scientific principles. Yes, by which they meant value free. Yes, that was a term of the day. It must be value free, you know, you, you can have your values, but don't bring them into the public realm. leave those behind in the in the private realm, which is what we're here today. Yeah.
That's your favorite two famous two story, history
virtue free in the family, as well as in the public square.
Well, I started with that not not at the beginning at the beginning. Great. Okay. Yeah. Right. The the public realm was was supposed to be value free, but people did not want to give up values, you know, things like altruism and self sacrifice and love and affection and religious piety. So if they didn't belong in the public realm, where would they be developed in the private realm? And who would be responsible for them? Well, women because women were the ones left in the private realm. And so for the first time ever, in human history, women was said to be morally and spiritually superior to men. I want people to realize how, what a big change this was because today we still have this double standard. And we tend to think, you know, it went back forever. No, it started in the 19th century. I just read a survey. Yes. Today in an article that said women are more pure, and women are more, more more, what did they say? Spiritually sensitive? I think it's a term they used. I thought, Well, where did that come from? Realize, in the ancient world all the way back to the ancient Romans and Greeks. Men were thought to be more virtuous. The insight into right and wrong was seen as a Rational Insight. And men were thought to be more rational. Therefore, men were more moral. They were stronger morally. In fact, the word virtue. Do you know, what's the Latin root of the word virtue is? The IR? The IR is Latin for man. Oh, wow.
It's so interesting. Yeah. Cuz it's, it's exactly. Intellectual History. And it's exactly the opposite. today. I'm thinking the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, you know, and here's actually the somewhat virtuous man that he was, you know, he had to be cast as a beast. And the women that were accusing him had to be cast as the virtuous victims. They couldn't lie, you know, believe all women, you know, so it's exactly like you're saying women have to be believed they don't ever lie. You know. That was such a weird thing. What since when do women not lie? Right.
Exactly. I'm saying goodbye. But this needs to continue this discussion. I mean, you can continue it now. But we need to do it again, Nancy. This is excellent. discussion. Thanks, Gerald. Yep.
Sorry that you have to leave Darrow.
By No, I wish he could stay. And it was it's you're really making our day, Nancy, especially arrows. But yeah, we could wrap this up here pretty soon, Nancy, although I'm just really loving the conversation.
Let me finish the point about virtue I think. The IR means man in Latin, so that the word virtue actually historically had overtones of manly strength and honor. And the double standard of period for the first time in the 19th century, for the first time in human history, women was said to be more moral and more spiritual than men. And of course, that created a lot of tension between men and women, which is what you noted a minute ago, Scott, when you said, well look at the Cavanaugh hearings, look at the conflict, where men are where men are presumed to be, you know, more naturally prone to sin advice, especially. Especially in areas like sex, right. And women are presumed to be more virtuous, well, that has that has a history. It was it came out of the 19th century. And we, we have to recognize where it came from, if we're going to deal with it, effectively.
So this tectonic shift that happened in the industrial revolution, didn't hurt women, it hurt children or hurt men. Because these were new roles that we'd never lived in before in history. And yet, now I'm just thinking about it. Like, how do we get back to this? It seems like the world has shifted, and it can't exactly go back. Like, I know, you have the chapter and bringing the bringing the man back to the family. And you were talking about how men should get back in the home and start working from home more. I see that as a possibility. But just with a modern, you know, work atmosphere that seems difficult to bring this back in a way. Do you think that's possible?
Um, well, the New York Times, of all places just had a really interesting article. So it's not in my book, because it just came out. It was on how during the pandemic, many fathers found themselves becoming much closer to their children, and they don't want to give that up. Wonderful. What a great what a great article, fathers. During the pandemic, many of them of course, worked from home or at least part time from home. And many of them found that they really enjoyed their kids, they enjoyed having deeper relationships. Another survey that is in my book on toxic the toxic war on masculinity. It was 65% of men said that after the pandemic ended, they did not want to go back to work full time. They wanted to have more time, more time at home. And so you're right, I have a whole chapter. You can't talk about these things without having some solutions. So I do have a whole chapter on ways that men can maybe and women can can bring more flexibility and into the workplace. There certainly can be a lot more than there is today. And Millennials are demanding and millennials in particular want a more balanced life and they should have the cultural mandate Genesis one. Both men and women were given the the cultural mandate Be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth. It's not only women who are fruitful and multiply and only men who subdue the earth. You know, both men and women want you to want to be involved in both. And some of the surveys of millennials said that they would much prefer to be able to work part time and have more time at home. You know, both spouses could work part time. And both spouses could have more time at home, either so that there's a better balance. So in in, in the toxic one masculinity i It's mostly anecdotal, of course, because there's not general principle yet. But I give examples, like maybe one of my favorite is one of my graduate students. During the pandemic, her husband, who's an IT worker, came home, and worked from home. And, and because he was present, he was able to be more involved with the homeschooling. He started being the one to make lunch every day, he started taking his kids to sports. And the time that he used to use commuting to work. In the morning, he started spending praying with his wife. And because he was picking up so much family responsibilities, his wife was able to do more work she, she's an opera singer, I had a student who was an opera singer. And she started a voice studio. And so the whole family benefited from their greater income. And so I interviewed the husband, and he said, I am never going back to a cubicle. Our life is so much more balanced now. And I, for the book, I interviewed a lot of fathers who said things like that, who said they started home based businesses, they started a home based consulting, or they started working two days a week from home, whatever they left, they left early, three days a week to to coach their son's soccer or basketball team. Oh, and by the way, that that, that student said, his boss accused him of coasting, he said, but it did not really put me back professionally. And as my sons grew up, they said, We want to be a father like you, which is a lot better than any workplace accolade.
Wow, that's really powerful. And so you know, I thought a lot about this, actually. And I think this industrial revolution and the impact that it had on so many things, but especially emptying out the house, right? Because you were you were correct to say prior to that, you know, the household was the center of the family of industry of so many things, right? It was an economic engine, you know, it was the center. But then after the Industrial Revolution house was really emptied, if all of its tasks, not just work where you had men going off to the office to work or whatever. But even education follow that industrial model, the kids now are going to a public school, they're not being educated at home, they're being educated out elsewhere. So the home is being emptied, and even food right, we don't even eat at home anymore, we go out to eat. And so somebody said to me, and it was very helpful. They said, You know, like you said, Look, we can't go back, right? There's not really a going back to the pre industrial revolution, nor in many ways would we want to, but we can, if we think about the house, well, we can recover some of those things that have been deliberately emptied out. Even simple things like, Well, I think education is a key one, can we educate the kids at home? Secondly, just food, can we make some more food and eat some meals together at home? So there's small things you can do to recover? I think that and so anyways, Nancy, well appreciate you bringing that up. So
yes, well, you know, women faces more than men do typically, because, you know, they often have the primary responsibility for young children. And so women in particular, have have asked for, for decades, you know, how can I work from home? How can I bring in an income while I'm while I'm home with my kids. I used to be a part of it. When I was lived in Washington, DC, I was part of a women's a mother's group, it was called mothers at home mothers. In DC, there's so much pressure for women, for professional women to stay in their profession and not take a day off, you know, when they have kids. And so they need these kinds of support groups. But the most common question we got was, how can I make money from home? You know, how can I continue to keep up my, my professional skills, and of course, I did that myself, I homeschool my kids. And I worked part time and I wrote books, and you guys can see on the camera. I have my stacks of books behind me. And I did all that from home, for the most part while raising my kids. So I have personally this has been a big part of my life. How do I integrate work and family better? And so really what we're seeing is fathers are now starting to say well, you know, I kind of got the short end of the stick. I don't want to necessarily be out of the house all day, every day either. I want closer relationships with my kids. And like I said, the pandemic helped men realize what they were what they were missing. So
if I could just jump in and see if it provides the context for what you can develop that virtuous man, but that you're talking about it, you know, because you're, you're now responsible in a direct way, you know, so I think it's just a practical place to develop that right?
Yes, yes. The long term solution to toxic behavior in men is better fathers, you know, better father son relationships. Yes. I mean, you know, raising raising our boys better. Yes, yes. Because the sociologists who came up with that good man versus real man distinction, said that most of them most boys learn the real man, which is the more toxic version from their fathers, you know, from other men. So, I have a have a chat, first two chapters and follow the other one. The first one says, Well, why is it that fatherhood is so denigrated today? We all know that fathers are mocked and ridiculed in the media. Rich Dad is always a dimwit.
It's so interesting. I've heard Johnstone street, I think he did a little study on TV programs, popular TV programs from The Brady Bunch. And the way that Mr. Brady is portrayed in that family up to the present, you know, and it's just, it's just a dramatic shift in how fathers are portrayed, you know, in the common culture, that we're all familiar with that. So
some Father Knows Best the Father knows least,
exactly, yes, exactly. But even
that has a history, people, people don't know where it came from. It came from the Industrial Revolution as well. Because when fathers were no longer in the home all day, for the first time, they were no longer deeply involved with their children, they didn't know what was going on with their kids. They didn't know what their kids were dealing with, what their kids were, you know, the day to day issues that the kids will have problems with their siblings, or problems with school or whatever. And already in the 19th century, you see, you see articles and books appearing that say, you know, men are no longer involved with a Kizito. They're disconnected. They're irrelevant. There was actually novel, Britain in the 19th century, where a child characteristic is, is made to say, I can't figure out what what God invented fathers for. And so already in the 19th century, people began to say, fathers had become irrelevant and no longer deeply embedded in their families. So that's where the notion came up. That's how it developed, that fathers are irrelevant and incompetent in the home. And so again, the solution is getting fathers back into the home more involved with their children. Again, there's a psychologist, I quote, who says, We're not going to have, we're not going to have a better class of men until we have a better class of fathers, fathers who don't want out on the job. You realize that here in America, with 4040 42% of children grow up without even knowing their natural fathers, their biological fathers. That's the highest level highest level of single parenthood in the world,
in the world. Recently in the world. Yeah, exactly. Ya know, it's it's just heartbreaking. And it affects different communities, the African American community is more affected than, than most you know. So it's hard. It's just heartbreaking. And it's, it's the problem. It's the root problem. And yet, you know, we're looking for, you know, we're trying to blame other things for this root problem that,
right, like I do say that in my in my book that churches really need to have serious substantial ministries, to men, and to fatherless boys.
Yes, exactly. Yeah,
we got to Father substitutes can can have a big impact on fatherless boys. So that should be one of our primary ministries, and then men's men's group should be more than just, you know, an occasional barbecue. It should be serious, deep teaching and, and connection with other men, friendships with other men.
If your book is going to help men in that same way, they can read it and discuss this, Nancy, I'm looking forward to that. So it goes beyond just Yeah, eating smoked meats, which I love that you're actually having some great discussions about, what does it mean to be a virtuous man? So that's, I wanted to touch on. Do you mind Luke? And then I'll let you go or do you want to go? Go for it? Yeah, I want to touch base back with your students. Again, you said it's the most controversial book and that strikes me. Because what it says to me is that the cultural narratives these really bad ideas on the culture have just come right into the, you know, into the most conservative kind of Orthodox evangelical schools. And are you Young people are thinking in kind of the same way. And there's also the paradox of the fact that when you go out to validate the idea that the Bible what the Bible teaches, you know, people that take the Bible seriously. They have the strongest families, those people aren't evangelical Christians. They're secular scholars, you know. So anyways, I, how do we deal with that problem? We it seems like we we, we I'm talking as the church is the evangelical church, or just being carried along by these narratives. And Luke, do you agree with that, from your experience? Because liquid to a Christian university?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, a lot of these stats I had never heard in my life.
Exactly, exactly.
So I think one of the most shocking things I found out was that people, most people in America today do not even treat evangelical as a theological position. They treat it as a political
grades. Yes.
And, and that happened in my classes. No, I understand that in the general culture. But when I use the word evangelical in my classroom at a Christian college, I had students go, yeah, they would clutch their pearls, so to speak, and say, you know, if I'd never heard I've never heard the word Evangelical, used in anything but a negative sentence. And I thought, No way, really. So
it's just because of Donald Trump, do you think it just isn't real? It? Yeah. Okay.
That's a that is a lot of it. That was kind of a turning point. But um, but, you know, I think that Christians, Christians should be involved politically. The trouble is, they don't always be a Christian worldview with them into politics. And therefore their Christian or their Christian engagement with politics sometimes is very superficial. And that's part of the problem. In my book, I actually had to say, since the term evangelical has been so politicized, I have to clarify that I'm using it in its theological sense. And I use the definition there's a David begged David Bebbington, he's a church historian in Britain, and most people now, most scholars use his definition of evangelical, what Schaffer used to call Bible believing you actually believe the Bible?
And maybe you actually go to church, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Like, like, so it is sad that even I've seen even Christian books that have given into the politicization of the term. And so they use the word evangelical to mean, you know, the Religious Right. And, and, in the studies that I talked about, they were not using it in that sense, they were not using it in a political sense. They were using it in the sense of people who have hold certain theological views, and people who hold those theological views, again, test out, you know, is the most loving fathers than most engaged husbands, the lowest level of divorce and the lowest level of domestic violence of any group in America,
to somehow be top of the mind for for our young Christians. That's, that's not even in their mind, it needs to be top of the mind the way our credit, the big problem that I see in the culture right now is our Christians are just reacting against negative stereotypes of people in the culture, half of them, it's just all this reaction, as opposed to going, No, that's really a false narrative. This biblical truth is real. And when you live it out, it has positive impacts in my life, and in my family, and in your life and your family. And I'm not apologetic about that, you know, I mean, it seems to me somehow we have to get to that point. So yeah, I cut you I cut you off. Yeah.
Well, yeah, that was pretty much my question. Right? There is, you know, these, the biblical, the Bible believing man, obviously has a lot of healthy effects on his family, on society, on his children. So so on, so forth. And, and yet, when I look at my society, especially with my peers, my heart is just torn apart, because all these young men have no idea what it means to be a man where, you know, to find purpose in life, they're just wandering around, like, you know, and it's so sad, and weird that it opens up a huge opportunity for the church to step in and tell these men, you know, give the give them a vision. So how can the church present a better vision for men inside the church and outside the church? Because there's such a need there? And we have the solution and the answer.
I did have one section of the book that I thought was quite interesting. It's by a non Christian historian, and he says, your view of God shape your view of masculinity. polytheism polytheism is the worship of many gods and so that would be the Greek gods with Zeus on Mount Olympus or the Norse gods and he said the exact words he says the gods drank, they went, they fought, they trumpeted the power. Still a polytheistic culture tended to elevate the military virtues, you know, to be a man was to be a warrior. And then he said, monotheism focuses on a single god who's transcendent to the universe. And if some monotheistic religions treat the God that God is utterly transcendent, and unapproachable, like like Islam, for example, in Islam, one author writes, God does not condescend to have a personal relationship with mere mortals. So this is a very transcendent separate God. That leads to a view of masculinity, that focus focuses on authority and power. Judas, Judaism is monotheistic, but it adds to that, that God is in covenant relationship with his people. And so he wants to be known. What is that verse? Let us know, let us press on to know the Lord. I think it's in Hosea. So Jude isn't taught that men should not just be authority figures, but they should be loving fathers. And then I remember this is all by non Christian historian, then he says, Jesus came up from within Judaism. And he said, Jesus complexified the whole thing, because Jesus actually promoted virtues that were typically more feminine without denying the more masculine virtues. He, he balanced it with things like gentleness, and sovereign leadership. Right? I am, I am among you as one who serves. So
yeah, that was completely upside down a radical and you're right in the world that existed. And exactly.
So here's his word. And here's what he says. This this secular historian, he says, what was new about Christianity is that gentleness, love and compassion, were masculine virtues. So that was so fascinating, because, you know, sometimes it's by compare and contrast that we appreciate more what we've got. So by comparing, we can see what Christianity brings to the table, that it encourages men to develop their whole personalities, both sides, both the sort of traditionally masculine virtues, and what have been stereotypically feminine virtues as well. The in the concept of servant leadership. So Christianity really does have an answer to the problem of toxic behavior in.
Yes. Just think, Nancy, that's such a great place to kind of maybe begin to wrap up here, because I love that picture, this picture of, of what it means to be a man by looking at Jesus Himself. And because he, he is, you know, he defines it for us, and he's our ultimate model. So I want to thank you, Nancy, for writing your book, The toxic war on masculinity. It sounds incredible. I can't wait to read it myself. I know Luke has dived in and DeRose already read it. But I can't wait. I can't wait to read it. And I want to encourage everyone who's listening to, to buy this book. And so if you're in a Men's Ministry, or men's group at church, get this book, and read it and discuss it together, and press on to recover in our culture, this idea of godly virtuous manhood. Nancy, any final thoughts from you before we wrap up?
Just I do want to thank Darrow, he did read it in manuscript form, and had excellent feedback. And he helped me to articulate better women's strengths, too. Because the book is mostly about men, I sometimes get people asking about, you know, why don't you address women more? And so I do to some degree. And here's why, because men are the sheer biology right? Biologically, men are bigger, faster, stronger. This was a new word for me. They have more fast twitch muscles, which means they can react more quickly. And so typically, like with the transgender issues today with transgender people wanting to participate in female sports, the emphasis is all on how men are stronger. And, Darrell is very good about saying well women have their own strengths, willingness to strength to you know, the ability to raise children is a strength, not a weakness. The ability to have Be willing to drop out with with an infant, an infant needs 24 hour a day care. You have to be willing to drop everything you're doing no matter what and attend to its needs. You don't say you don't scold it, you don't say, wait, wait a minute, you know, you attend to its distress, you know, at that moment, it requires incredible, incredible amounts of sensitivity to nonverbal cues, which most of us, you know, are not that good at, because babies don't talk yet. In crazy, incredible amount of patience, and willingness to train and educate and raise a child do well was very good about making sure that I put a few passages in there on women's strength. It's not just that men are stronger physically, but women are stronger in their own ways, as well. So we need to use the word strength for both kinds of strength. And I thought that was very helpful. And DeRose book on women was very helpful for for me when I was writing the toxic war and masculinity.
That's nurturing nations. Yeah, there is book on women. Well, I'm so honestly, that's wonderful to hear that you and Darrow have the ability to collaborate and to strengthen each other's work on this project. I know that'll mean a lot to him when he hears this. And so and by the way, Luke informs me that you're quoted Dara few times in the book. So that's very generous of you. Thank you, Nancy.
Oh, multiple times. I quoted him multiple times. I should have said that. I should have said that earlier. We can because yeah, yeah, he
really appreciates you sending him the manuscript, and him being able to read through it. So
Oh, and he had the best responses to I mean, you know, you send it out to other expert reviewers. And, you know, some some don't send you very much feedback. He was very genuine, generous with his feedback. And the one part of the book we didn't get to is because nominal men have the highest rate of domestic violence. I do have to have two chapters on domestic violence. And I quote Darrell there too. Yeah, he had some really good. You know, he's, he's out. He's out in nations that still have a lot of domestic violence, more so than in the West. And so he had some really good quotes in those in those chapters as well. Yes, I didn't mean to I'm not to start with that. So thank you for bringing it up.
No, no, no, we're just we're just honored. It's an honor it really so and I know Darrow feels that way. So thanks for thanks for sharing that. Yeah. You guys are a good complement to each other. And it's kind of ironic. You have Darrow championing women and now Nancy, the woman championing men so Nancy, best of luck with this book. May God really bless it and just continue to bless your ministry. Thanks for your friendship, and thank you all for listening to another episode of ideas have consequences, and disciple nations.
Thank you so much for listening to this interview with Nancy Pearcey, like we mentioned at the beginning of this show her new book The toxic war on masculinity, how Christianity reconciles the sexes comes out today, June 27. So if you're listening to the show and want to grab your copy, just head over to wherever books are sold and grab yours. If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Pearcey and her other books, we would highly recommend you go back and listen to episode 25 of this podcast titled biblical sexuality and the LGBTQIA plus revolution with Nancy Pearcey. During that discussion, we focus on her last and extremely important and relevant book, Love thy body answering the hard questions about life and sexuality. As always easiest way to take a deep dive into these episodes and learn more about all of the resources that we mentioned during our discussions. You can just head over to our episode landing pages, which you'll see links down in the description. On that page, we have included more information about the toxic war on masculinity and our free online training course The Grand Design rediscovering male and female as Imago Dei. In this time of gender confusion, this course will ground any believer in their God given identity and their role in his kingdom. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube or on our website, which is disciple nations.org. Thanks again for listening and I hope you're able to join us here next Tuesday on ideas have consequences for a fascinating discussion with Dr. Brian fikkert, the author of when helping hurts and becoming whole. That episode again will be out next Tuesday here on ideas have consequences.
