Ed O'Malley (he him; on ancestral Muhheconneok Land)
Keywords:
sleep
hrv
pcp
night
ferritin
data
work
ring
people
studies
question
iron
dark
increase
brain
asleep
measure
interesting
movement
shift
Hello everybody waiting for trickle down entry thing nice to see everybody again. As you know, this is the doctor edge show. I'm here basically just to introduce my dear friend. We're so fortunate to have him and his extraordinary skill set. I've learned so much from him over the last. What is it been? Two years maybe?
I'm almost four. We started early 21. Yeah, yeah.
It's so much fun that time you stopped time in my mind. Exactly. I have a lot to talk about this this time around because I finally get um, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche in conjunction with and pressured me to get the aura ring. So I'm fully on board with this and I asked her to do some recaps on it. Yeah, there we go.
Oh, good. Denise has moved to Boulder brings up mines.
Yeah, it's the technology with this thing is just absolutely amazing. So cool. questions come in. And I'm just gonna turn it over to you my friend and I will definitely be here taking notes as I always do. Sounds
good. Sounds great. And I will share my screen as I always do, because I have prepared a few few things to talk about. On this 13th of February. So we will get to the ring. And that's probably the next last thing but a couple of questions came in and you know, we were talking about sometimes these questions come in on topics that we've already covered, maybe a couple of times, and so we're working on a way to actually be able to search the older stuff to be able to pull these up. And so Francois, I don't like that. I just see you French Why are you here? Everybody see French well on the screen? Yes, is he's here I'm referring you to ask the sleep doctor number 12. And that was back in 2021. In which I have a bunch of slides on it and I actually riff on it a bit. Okay, so you can go back just for some more background on it. But you know, generally, your questions were around well you've been able to add some iron. And that's helped, but not enough to really, really relieve the symptoms. Is there a way to increase our iron in the brain? And then another question, is there a way to increase dopamine in the brain? Because that seems to play a role as well. Dopamine is more of an exogenous treatment for you. I mean, the medications that they basically do increase dopamine, but it's they're not all specific for increasing dopamine. So that's part of it, but if you actually get the iron into the brain, yes, there are ways to increase iron in the brain. So even though your iron in the blood is normal, the ferritin is the carrier of iron. into the brain. Okay. And for whatever reason, that gets off is sometimes anemia, sometimes low iron, but it could be any number of reasons. And even if your iron is normal, ferritin normal, the numbers need to be high. enough in order to affect the symptoms of restless legs, periodically movements, all that motor movement stuff. So that would be my first course is to continue with your iron supplementation. And remember, this is not diagnosis and treatment. These are just open suggestions for you. To explore with your PCP. But really, if you want to just look up the data on ferritin, restless legs and periodic limb movements, you'll find that you've really got a bump the ferritin levels way above what's considered within the normal range much higher. And so the best way to do that is with additional slow release iron, you know, over the counter stuff. And again, talk to your PCP. If you start getting symptoms and symptoms before the levels go up. You might have to follow another route and symptoms like constipation, that kind of thing. But if you're tolerating it, well keep bumping it until the symptoms seem to improve. Okay. Any follow up question on that Francoise, since you're here
Yeah, there you go.
Yes, hello. So thank you for answering this question. Yeah, as you said, the ferritin levels might be normal. But in the brain, the amounts may be too low. So I'm wondering how really, can we effectively increase a brain higher and so is it again through supplementation or
do you what you're trying to do know both the what's considered normal ferritin and higher levels? of protein or in the bloodstream? They're in your blood, they are measurable when you do regular blood panel. Okay, so you can see what that is. And if it's even if it's normal, if it's not, if it's lower than 50, maybe sometimes even 60. Then you can bump that by sort of overloading your body with iron. So again, even though the iron levels are normal, if you keep increasing them the brain, the system finally says, Oh, looks like there's so much iron we better make more ferritin and when it finally starts making more ferritin then it'll eventually come back into balance. But you need to get your eye in really high to make that happen. And then once that happens, it usually will stay up there you can kind of back off the arm a little bit, but you everything is done through the peripheral nervous system and then it gets into the peripheral physiology, then it gets into the brain, guys, thank you.
And is that correct that dopamine needs iron or ferritin to be able to be Yeah,
yeah, it needs iron to function better. So it may not be that you need more dopamine, you may just need better iron in the brain and the central nervous system. Okay, they're all
sorry, they're all magnesium. I'm also taking magnesium because I read the it's also factual.
Yeah, magnesium is helpful in general for muscle release muscle relaxation, as well as it's important for sleep as well. So if you're low on that, you want to make sure you're supplementing that like you. You already said you were select fine, but that's not enough. You really need to mess with the iron and the ferritin. Okay, okay.
Okay, thank you so much. All right. You're
welcome. Good luck with that. Erica, were you gonna say something? I think
I have a question for you. So at what point in these developing sleep disorders is it indicated to actually go to your PCP? I mean, how much of this can you auto diagnose? So like if somebody is reading this and they go, geez, I think I got restless leg. So they go ahead and just try the slow release Iran before they see their PCP or should they piece the work panel, the blood panel? No,
I you know, I always would do it through the PCP because you don't know what increasing iron is in the rest of your system which your PCP knows. So there may be some contraindication for it. So you don't really want to do it on your own. You want to make sure your PCP is on board, that he's going to be the one or she's going to be the one to order the blood panel anyway. So you know, I mean, you know, off the record, if you wanted to try a little slow release iron, it's probably not going to hurt anything. But you know, I wouldn't say do it unless you're pretty sure you're healthy otherwise, and you have no other issues where that might present a problem.
So if the person themselves is suffering from RLS, and it's really not affecting them, but it's affecting their sleep partner. So then it's just a matter of like, know how important it is for marital harmony. To deal with this. I mean, at what point at what time what point is, the person who's afflicted with this man is pretty self evident in terms of when they would seek professional care.
Well, well, well, here's the thing. So restless leg syndrome is a daytime disorder. And it doesn't necessarily affect sleep, except that it can make it difficult to fall asleep because there's a circadian component to it. It's worse in the evening, and so you start getting restless and you gotta lay down, you're like, maybe I need to do a couple laps before I can relax. We recommend like hot baths, you know, release the muscles, increase the circulation, and sometimes that's enough to get you your legs to quiet down in order for you to fall asleep. But the second part of that is 80% of people with restless legs. Then also have periodic limb movements, which are periodic leg twitches during the night and that is what disturbs the bed partner. And that's what gives you like, you know, black and blue ribs from all that. Stop doing that. So, yes, marital harmony is definitely up near the top of the list. So go back to your PCP and figure out what you can do. Why are you been smiling a lot there too. And I guess there are a few people who this is relevant for and yeah, whether it's you or the part the bed partner. I, you know, I confess that I had some black and blue ribs myself. I'm like, Oh, I better read up on this. Oh, I see. So yeah, you know, I've got some pretty high levels of iron right. Now and let's Life's good. Cool. Hey, how many restored? All right. And again, I'm the as the sleep doctor, doctor number 12. That recording I speak a lot about and have some other you know, medications. If nothing is working down the road. Okay. Oh, yeah. And port to your question, right. You had a long one there. You know, because these h2 blockers, you know, the stuff we take to treat heartburn, they can mess with iron and they can mess with your dopamine you know, they're messing with everything. A good nutritionist will find ways this is all whether it's gut flora, whether it's you know, spicy foods of good nutritionist will get you through this really holistically with some supplements and some things designed specifically for this that aren't these real, you know, Sledgehammer kinds of meds for the body. Okay, so that's part two. All right. Good. Off to a rolling start here. Now this is really Oh, Angie just went into dark retreat. Look at that. These back again, okay. Yeah, I know you wanted to talk about this, but I figured I just see what I could find. And you may already you already know this stuff here was up on the screen. I don't know if you're on your
monitor. Cheers work. I actually sent his his paper to some of my neuroscientists friends, including a pretty big deal guy at Harvard. And they were as polite as they possibly could be about the so called science behind it. So anyway, I am in no position. I don't remember I read the paper. I don't remember enough of my college biochemistry and all that sort of thing. But anyway, I'm curious what your impression was of that paper or his work and how that relates to you understanding?
Well, you know, I mean, it's it's what was the term we use biologically plausible about weather you know, there's not a lot of data to really suggest this is exactly what's happening. But certainly melatonin goes up in the dark. We know that and whether or not these follow you know, they're, you know, more about the visions and they're, you know, lucid dreaming. All of these things begin happening down the road, whether they happen in this order, and in this particular formulation from Chia is it's questionable, but I think the general notion is that you go into deeper all these products are related to each other melatonin to a dependent lien related to DMT all this they come from the same and and serotonin. So the breakdown of serotonin leads to all of these different molecules, either further break down to or build up so they're all possible and they certainly underlie psychedelics and vision experiences and so forth. So, again, biologically plausible, whether it's disorder or not another story. Cool. I did one more piece. There is some good data on using a darkness, not really necessarily dark retreats, but like seven day dark periods for bipolar disorder. And what they found is it definitely knocks down the manic symptoms. So much so that the protocol they've developed to treat bipolar you know, of course, they're gonna do medications because they're easier, right? Why change behavior or lifestyle when you can just pop a pill, but you're a lot of people who with bipolar who just have a hell of a time even with the medications, getting the right balance and they still slip into a you know, mania or depression and it's up and down. But if you extend the dark periods of each individual night, you will then maintain gain seen with this week long treatment of bipolar disorder such that either the medications work completely now or you don't even need medications to maintain a non bipolar mental status. So there really is a lot that's interesting. With with dark and sleep effects, but there isn't a lot of data beyond you know, there's nothing on sleep stages and that kind of thing. There are suggestions that sleep improves, and I'm sure you can speak to that at least off the cuff personally. Yeah, for
sure. I mean, a couple things along these lines. I'm actually meeting with a gala Thursday from Germany, who's apparently one of the lead kind of darkness therapy practitioners and both in the Czech Republic where it's really big, and also in Germany, doctors therapy, it's a pretty big deal. And so I don't really know much of anything about it. So, next time around, I'll be able to share something from a conversation with her because some people listening probably heard me say I'm in conversation with a bunch of scientists from a bunch of different institutions. Probably going to initiate a battery of different types of studies. Because dark practice is a is a multi valent practice. You can do it all the way from entry level darkness, therapy stuff, kind of what you're what you're talking about here to exploring aspects related to yoga nidra and three levels. Then you've got the whole really fascinating and untapped. I shouldn't say it's totally untapped by the work of Paul said filled, who I think I mentioned to you. And he's worked primarily with flotation tanks. Not about overt kind of dark retreat in the way that I understand it or get to know it. So in a certain way, it's kind of the wild frontier there's this is one reason the scientists are so interested because there's so much that can be explored here. That is completely untapped. And so stay tuned on some of the stuff it's it's going to be kind of interesting what happens over the next months and years.
One other interesting finding I'd come across and when they did, you know, animal studies, they do rats and mice and they, you know, they can force them into these long periods of darkness, so dark and light and so forth. And what's interesting is, right, they're nocturnal creatures. So when you put them in light, they are awake and alert and active. And when you put them in sorry, the opposite when you put them in light. They're sleeping. So now they're sleeping extended periods when they're in light. And when when they're in dark. They're up and about and when you extend the dark periods, they become almost like bipolar for them, because they're reversed. So it's pretty interesting. It may not be the light per se, but it's the absence of light at least for us that has that impact. And for for the critters it has more to do with their rest week activity cycles that it seems to play with. So really interesting stuff there too.
Okay, Meyers got something to say Oh,
go Myra before I pop on the ring stuff, which we'll have to Yeah.
Well, that people would night shift like nurses and I would that effect also. That kind of cycle I have my youngest daughter was in a nice ship and all this stuff and she's having all this symptoms. And he began with very bad sleep in his in the other day, she went into a psychosis really, it did sound a lot like some of us when after a good meditation but but I I think that I was always concerned. So the question I guess is, will people with night shifts that do not adjust with and they maybe if they have some sort of imbalance would that be more triggered or more prepends to this kind of behavior? Absolutely.
Absolutely. You know, night shift in itself, no one really adjusts people adapt as best they can. But we're just not designed to work at night. We're just not. And so you know, what kinds of disorders go up with night shift and nurses especially because you know, the doctors just go on call every so often but but nurses work whole shifts, three, four days running of those late working through the night, and the body is just not designed. So all the rhythms get out of whack. And it's not like we have just one circadian rhythm, but we have multiple rhythms in the body, and they're all linked to that one master light dark cycle. And so when we mess with that, people who work night shifts never fully sleep all of their hours, they never fully catch up number one and number two, it's that shift from being on night, then today than on night and then today, that they never quite catch up and their rhythm never quite catches up. And so their internal rhythms never quite catch up. So they're not really restoring Well, their hormones. Well, things aren't being broken. down as well as they should and eliminated. So they're carrying constant inflammation. And, you know, they're just higher levels of all kinds of disorders. If you already start with something, it is almost guaranteed to get worse. So the only people who really should be working night shifts of people who don't have any mood disorders or major disorders of any sort, and who are the night people and the final pieces, and they're shorter sleepers than the rest of the population. They're the only ones who do reasonably well at night, but as a whole, everyone suffers. Yeah, quite well.
I have another question for you. Yeah.
Let me just say to myRA, she should go to her doctor with these complaints and get a doctor's note. So she doesn't have to do that shift. And she should be able to be put on the day shift and fight for it. You know? Okay, sorry. Nuff said. That's a big sorry, Andrew. Yeah, so
you know, the other thing that's not talked about all that much, maybe you can say a little bit about this is the documentation. The data around sleep deprivation is exhaustively proven right? I mean, all the deleterious effects of not having enough sleep. Well, what about the other end? I mean, I know one guy, when he goes into his doctor, he goes in for like, 10 days at a pop. And he was brave enough to share he goes yeah, basically spent 16 hours a day in bed. Now, it was easy sleeping all that time. I kind of doubt it, but that does beg the question at what point does too much sleep you know, you get the kind of restore out but on another level I know there is when you pass a certain criteria. It can start to backfire. And it's actually deleterious. It's damaging. Yeah.
Yeah, I this is why I love doing these things. So I just I can talk sleep forever, right. Like you could talk during yoga forever. Yes,
it sounds good. Walk the Talk right then. Yeah.
You do have to get some sleep. Okay. That being said, when Tom Weir was at the NIH, he did these studies looking at the you know, melatonin rhythms when people kept him in bed, kept. They were all instrumented so we could look at actual EEG sleep, and he kept him in bed for 14 hours. And oh, I should say yeah, in dead in in the darkness for 14 hours. And what happened was, it took them somewhere between 10 days and two weeks to stop oversleeping now, these are normal everyday people, no complaints, you know, they're like I'm sleeping. Fine. I'm sleeping eight hours a night, blah, blah, blah. They come in to the sleep lab, they're forced to stay in bed. They at first for those first 10 days to two weeks, sleep more nine hours, nine and a half hours, eight and a half 910 hours. And then after two weeks or so they start coming down to about eight and a half. No one went under eight. They're all sleeping more than eight. So even though we can be in bed for eight hours, we're not sleeping 100% Sleep efficiency so only sleeping. Usually you know, as we get older, it drops to about 85% efficiency, kids sleep 95% efficiency, so somewhere in that range everybody else is. So you're not really getting your eight hours every night you're actually getting less now. So when somebody says hey, you're stuck in bed for two weeks, what are you going to do? You're going to sleep so you will make up some sleep at first. Then it'll come down to whatever your asleep need is, and that'll probably be a little exacerbated by the fact that your activity level is significantly reduced right on dark retreat, you're not doing nearly as much and in the daytime as you normally would be. So you're probably not quite needing even as much okay, so you're going to sleep more but you're not going to see more continually beyond a week or two. When they look at population studies, and they look at all sleep and all mortality, what they find is there is a U shaped curve that people who sleep too little have have greater mortality and people who sleep too much greater mortality. But there's always a caveat on the group that sleeps too much. Because most of them the reason they're sleeping too much is probably because they have a sleep disorder that's untreated. Because you're looking at a population you're not looking at people who are treated. So if they have AP near their sleeping too much that's not treated if you have mood disorders that aren't being treated a lot of reasons why people oversleep or sleep too long. So I question once you've met your sleep need and you've made up the amount of sleep you can possibly make up and it really you're not going to make up month's worth. You may wait make up the last couple of weeks last month maybe at most, if you're an extended period, that you're allowed to sleep, but you're not going to get much beyond what you typically need. So it'd be interesting this guy should wear a ring in there you know or next time you go in. You'll let us know Yeah, let's
do well I'm gonna go in next week so I'll be able to chart Oh yes, whatever
day but I
get I get the Weekend Review so I can pop out and see what kind of data Yeah, that'd be kind of interesting. Actually. Good point this.
Yeah. Make sure you bring your charger. All
thank you for reminding me
both for the watch. And the thing you're not gonna see it. Turn off the face and all that so you don't see anything but I don't think you put it on. Yeah. Good point. Cool. All right. Yeah, I went to Australia and I left one of my chargers home man I know about leaving your charger at home because I wanted to see the jetlag effects and all you know, I'm collecting data left and right. And anyway, thanks all right. Dark retreat. Interesting stuff. So speaking of the ring, so I actually tried to get up to date on it. And so this this was published in the New York Times the wire cutter you know, at the end of 2023 so they calling it 2024. And the New York Times says the best thing is to rain. The best sleep tracker without question. And you know, it's it's really across the board. It's really they keep improving it now I've seen them they really made some huge increases especially Gen three generation three rings, which is anyone who buys one now and that's what you get. I found out I went back and checked I've had mine for five years now. So I've gone through every generation up until now and it has significantly improved my Are you still have you ever been intuity Do you have a Gen three now? Pretty good. And you've How are you finding Are you finding it recordings?
I yeah, I really love it. I mean, I look forward and I actually now before there was a level of anxiety as to what the numbers are going to be. But now I feel like he's just a helper like you know, take the deeper breath or use the breath and the sleep it is very, very accurate and I like the stress level or to relax or engaged. I love that Yeah. Yeah,
I should. Uh, you know, I was gonna actually I didn't think to take a screenshot or two of the hook the new measures of the we get the sweep up here I can maybe put it up on screen for just a second. I'll do yesterday's. Yeah, cuz it's got a full day pretty much. Yeah. So they have this new stress measure. You can see it up here in the top graph there and they have four levels of whether you're stressed up to top, whether you're engaged, the second one down, whether you're relaxed, and you're when when you're restored. There's my morning meditation, nice restoration, but it's a great measure to to really keep track of you know, I can you come home from one of those days and we want to do is put your feet up, you know and have a cocktail or something. Then look stress levels and they're probably been pretty high. Yeah,
you know what, that's the most eating after five or 530 or having even a half a beer is enough to affect the cycle of my body. So it's like a fight. Happy late dinner. That's the night that I know that is not a good rest.
Yeah, and I agree. The late eating is generally generally a big deal. Yeah. Oh, I see. Very sad his diet and they sent me a new one. Yes, good. They are they were pretty good company. You know they as long as you've had them within a reasonable time, they will they replaced my gen one once and my gen two I think twice. My Gen three has been doing pretty good for this whole time though. Anyway, they're they're pretty good trackers. And this is the latest data from a paper in 2021. In which they compared and PSG somebody was getting a sleep study and wearing the ring at the same time. And this is the concurrence, which is pretty close, you know, pretty close, most places. will miss have maybe some deep sleep here but you can see it was sustained here. They got that block the rooms were pretty well right on rooms right on rooms right on. And and what you know what the literature will say is that some of the other devices like The walk will be really good at one stage, but not necessarily all the stages. So they just don't have as many metrics that as the ring is measuring themselves,
and you might want to find npsd For some people they might not know Oh, I'm
sorry, that's an old nocturnal poly some no gram. That is an in lab sleep study. Okay, so they're all instrumented. They've got EEG recording and that's really the best recording that's what sleep staging and sleep recording was created with actually recording the EEG and then measuring those depths of sleep. And again, if it's back on, you know, I presented some data on that in a couple of places, but essentially, the different stages of sleep are recorded. 32nd Page by 32nd Page of the entire seven or eight hour night. So each page is looked at scored and added up. And so generally what people do is they drop from the Wake state up here, down into light sleep first. Generally we don't hang out in light sleep, we drop into deeper sleep in the early part of the night. And then that whole first part of the night, we're spending more time in deep sleep, and that will come out or we might have a brief awakening and two, we might have a brief REM sleep period. He has a very brief REM sleep period, then in a wake up because our brains are close to waking right when we're cognate eating during a dream. Our brains are really active and we can easily awaken and then drop back into sleep and here get a little deep sleep but you can see it is much less deep sleep for the rest of the night. Most of its in the first part of the night. And then REM sleep periods increased during the second half of the night. You know, not always um, this is real, live data. In this case, their RAM didn't necessarily increase but you can see there's less deep sleep as the night progresses. More of the last half of the night will be in REM sleep than deep sleep. Those are the major features of a histogram and sleep study and what the ring gives you in the ring gives you a pretty much similar histogram to let you know what stages are in. Actually a pretty one, two. Very easy to tell. Any other comments questions about the ring? Yeah, I
have a question. Since I've, you know, I just got my three weeks ago. I'm still it's amazing how much data this thing spits out. I mean for this little guy to crank out this much data and spit it out in a graph this quick. It's amazing. So I'm still trying to get my beat on it but I don't seem to be doing too well. Here you can look at mine. My sleep efficiency. My restfulness I never seem to get restfulness at a score that seems to be satisfactory to this machine. And so it's starting to piss me off a little bit, right.
Well, so So we managed to put you on full screen. So go to look at your so if you scroll down a little bit, there should be a restful measure. Yes. Or a movement measure.
restfulness Yes, vessel I talked about restfulness contributors now. No,
no, go to your go to your histogram. Go back to the sleep thing. Okay. Yeah, to the actual histogram. Okay. Okay. And then right below the histogram, there's movement. Movement. Yeah. Okay. So the movement there will tell you so that's not bad. That's not terrible. The root movement I'm seeing there on screen. Okay. But it looks like you were up three times. And they do. They do correlate with the white blocks. So that's what I mean by it's a prettier display of the histogram because you can see those thickness, those thick, etc, thick down here. There's a red period, there's wait periods and white and the light blue and dark blue so you can see all that. Yeah. So very nicely showing, you know the different periods that you're in, and it usually correlates with movement. So now, you guys both in the same bed. You have a bed partner. Yeah. So there's gonna be movement. That's not you. Oh, there's gonna be movement that result of the other person that shows up in yours. Hey, my sleep is always worse when my wife's up here when she's doing some traveling. Psychiatry, so during the week, sleeping like a baby on the weekends. Yeah, we're talking blankets and you know, turning red lights on and
well could also be my puppy. It could also be Tashi, right i mean could that actually be be registering on this
Joshy in bed? My damn dog. I knew absolutely. Yeah, it could be the dog playing the dog. Dog.
You know what is amazing to me is is when I do my own auto analysis, I always do that before I look at the graph, just to see like, Okay, well you know, I had a lot of dreams. Let's see if this coordinates. It's pretty impressive. I mean, it's like whoa. So I have to say I one reason I've been reluctant to get as like, I can't be this accurate, but I'm very pleasantly surprised. You think I'm doing an advertisement for this? No,
I know. That's what people would like them to. But I'm saying you know, in fact, one of the lamas who came who wasn't there when we were at Chase Yeah, but he runs like Mencia up in British Columbia there and he came down for one of the ones on five elements or whatever and you know nice guy we it's a he said, he said Yeah, yeah, rubbish. He has been all over me to get one I finally decided I'm going to order when I got the information. I ordered one. And he said and it wasn't watchband I'm happy got to work when he was trying to get the ring. So
you got whooped. What are the things that are worth looking at for false positives or false negatives? What are the things in this again, sorry for people who don't have this I'm kind of dominating the airwaves here because I'm kind of excited about this thing. Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche basically, has told me I mean, in the sweetest sense he put enough peer pressure on me. He was what's happening me you know, like showing me all this stuff and I just felt so much pressure I had to break down and buy it. Anyway, what other what other things to be aware of because that little comment about the movement thing that's, that's really helpful. Anything else where you can get false positives or false negatives, that's worth knowing about?
Um, if there's too much movement, you can have gaps in your recording. Okay. So that's one thing. There's a 24 hour heart rate rhythm, which also can give you information about, you know, what's going on during your day. To remember where that is. It's under your because you can see where so there's a 24 hour heart rate thing. Yeah. And then it'll give you your restorative times and all that and that's a pretty good one. But you can see where they have dotted lines. I don't know if you can see my dotted lines. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, that's where I didn't catch data. Yours. Yeah, yeah. Nice. You did some serious meditation or serious runs.
And how, how's my HRV
way, the way I can see my things? Yeah, fair to middlin fair to middlin fair to middlin Let me show you some HRV. HRV is bigger than your Yeah, exactly. People are going geez, sorry. No, these guys are way to go. Well, so the HRV here's the thing. HRV changes with age and decreases with age. Okay, all for all of us. But what you need to do is you really got to have this thing for a good month and see what your average HRV is. And you know, a month of reasonable activity and not no no illness. Okay? And then you want to see if you change something like, I mean, if you're getting pretty good sleep and all that your HRV then you just want to notice when it goes down because something's up when it goes down. Okay, so you want to you know, maybe you're overdoing it, maybe you're not giving yourself enough recovery time. Maybe you're starting to cut your sheep or you're asleep a little short. Maybe you are having a glass of wine or two with dinner, you've gone out to a conference, you know those kinds of things. They'll decrease your HRV so you want to know what it is for you. So the absolute numbers aren't really helpful here. You want to know what they are for you.
Yeah, comparatively. Sure. That makes sense. Yeah. Oh,
yeah. And in fact, you know, like on my several devices, my wife would give me one HRV my Fitbit gives me different HRV and my ring gives me another HRV but again, they usually vary together. So if one's going up and usually the other ones go up to you and if the absolute numbers are are lower or different,
so how how accurate cuz then I seem to get regularly spanked with my efficiency and my restfulness you know that that one doesn't, it's almost always read.
Your gratefulness? Yeah, well, you know, wife, dog, food, alcohol. You got a few things to sort through. Yeah,
I mean, no alcohol dog. Yeah.
We'll see what happens when you're, you know, when you're away or to me, yeah, exactly. You have nobody around when you have to retreat? that'll be I mean, probably the first night or two in the retreat will be closer to what you would be like when you were alone. And then you have the retreat effects. So or to say.
Thank you super helpful. So anybody else who doesn't have one? It's like Big yawn here. But
yeah, well, you know, I think they these illustrate a higher point, which is they're useful for helping us monitor our health. They really are. So you know, you even the Fitbit, anything that you were single device would be enough, because they're all relatively good. And what you want to look for relative changes. What did I just do that just, you know, you know, tanked my sleep, too. What did I do that increased my body temperature overnight, or whatever device is doing for you? Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Excellent.
Thank you. Very helpful. Very helpful.
Yeah, so So Barry asked about that same thing you know, is HRV from his from the ring app is low. And it's like double on the iPhone health app. Why the difference? As long as those ranges stay the same, then those are just the way they're measuring it on you. And I'm not certain what the actual what the watch is. When you measure HRV there are several different values that are used to calculate it. And so the absolute difference may be just due to what they're measuring as a reflection of HRV. So, so don't get too much, you know, again, check it out over time. When you're doing well. You're feeling good, you're doing your exercise, you know, several times a week, you're doing your walks, you're eating well, and you've done that for three or four weeks, whatever that HRV is and you're sleeping well of course, that way your HRV should be and then you look for changes.
I keep thinking when I look at my now that, that you know I get these readiness scores, like you know, 77 and 85. I keep thinking they but those are a little bit greased so that they don't make their customers feel bad, you know? So you get you get really Dec accurate diagnosis says you sleep like crap, you're resting you're gonna you're gonna die in a year. Right?
Well, they have time ways of saying it, you know, like, they just introduced this new thing called resilience, right? Yeah, well, my resilience was strong, but down a bit. That's what they said. Yeah, the next day was only solid. You can go up a little, you know. So they're, they're trying to nicely say, hey, you know, you screwed up, you know, improve it. So, Francois, let's see yours. Get
mine solid. Yeah, okay,
good. Good. But this again, dip down into solid there so, but that look, you had a 79% efficiencies so that that's consistent. Yeah.
started dropping since I came on and started listening to you.
You probably that stress marker went way up to you like oh my god, I mean, you know, my health is suffering.
Honestly, it's short. It's amazing that this tiny little thing, you know, for those of you don't have the pulses, little red light and you see other lights and you know, it's like, like aliens have taken over your hand. The data accumulation is remarkable, actually, I'm super impressed. Yeah,
yeah, no, it's the easiest one to use out of all of them because all you got to do is wear a ring and yeah, cool. So Francoise in chat says, I noticed that my average nighttime heart rate goes up by about 10 When I drink alcohol, but my wife does not. I wonder what that means. Well, you're probably a cheap date, and she's not. You know, it probably but I would I would do is I'd look at your HRV because I'll bet that goes down. And HRV isn't directly related to heart rate. But the fact that your heart rate goes up, it means it's not lowering as much as it should. And so your night like if you had the rain, your night would say, you know, less efficient, you wouldn't probably be hitting the salad resilience, you'd be lower than that, you know, that kind of thing. Because you're you're you're asleep took a hit in a sense by having the alcohol that night. And you could try you could experiment, have it with dinner and not have any more you know, until three or four hours when you go to sleep. Have you have a nightcap, guaranteed it's going to lower your values of everything, including asleep. So and you know these things people can now prove themselves, you know, like actually do it and compare. And you know, there's a difference between harbored values for males and females as well. You know, size makes a difference in terms of lung size lung capacity, breath capacity, you know, so there, there are different gender factors that are biologically driven.
Before I forget, Tim, put something in the chat column that maybe I should get one if in fact you do want to get one ad don't again, we're not we're not pushing it but don't you? Couldn't they refer something to you and you get some kind of like, credit or discount or thing it doesn't so no,
no, no, no. Did you know they're not that nice. I wasn't for users, they do have you can send somebody like like they love you when you when you recruit someone else. So they have little lakes links you can send to somebody and they'll save 40 bucks, you know, yeah,
share your referral link with friends and family. They'll be on their way to better sleep with $50 off. Oh, yeah. they get the discount.
Oh get the discount you don't get the discount now. Yeah, you're done multi stop activities. That's
even better. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, no, I you know, I yeah, I do I send them out to friends and family who want to get it you know, but yeah, I just you know, this is my experience working with all the various illuminators like, share, link. If anybody wants to link the, you know, my, I don't know, where's my email? It's out there somewhere. Right, Alyssa? You can email me and I'll send you a link. No, nobody left less. We
think it's very, you're
very happy that Barry consented to
less we think it's like, you know, the next best thing since EGS. It tells me that my cycle is going to start in the next five days. So it's not like 100% accurate
Not yet anyway.
I didn't realize so androgynous This is actually kind of
you know, what's amazing is that when sleep scores score, sleep right as accurately as possible, and then you compare like 20 year scores across labs across times. The best anyone's ever been able to get with 85% agreement. Yes, and generally it's 75 to 80. The rain is up to 79. So I rest my case, that's why I recommend it. Yeah, of course. Yeah. All right. Um, I think I had one or two more thing. Let me just see if we're about almost we have a little bit of time story. see that you guys faces Oh. What is that? Oh, yes, sleep regularity. I did one I brought this up last time. This is the latest data, the latest big, like Earth Shaking data that we're gonna see in the sleep world for a while. And so I'm gonna probably I'm gonna harp on this for a bit because it's a big deal. So what they found was and let's look at this. So what they found was they looked at a population of 61,000 people in England in a health care plan because they all have the same health care, right. And they, they gave them all and actigraph. Basically, you know, this has an active graph in it too, but it's just moved with and active graphs have correlated relatively well not even quite as good as this with EG sleep studies. But for the most part, people will use them when they wanted to record sleep over long periods. of time before they were anything like trackers. And what they found was they gave it to him for a week. A bunch of people for a week. And I think they I forget how many time points they had. So out of 61,000 people they all did it for about a week and they looked at the data and what they found that striking was that sleep regularity, which I'll define in a minute, was a greater predictor of all types of mortality. Anything that contributed to early death. Sleep regularity was a better predictor of it than sleep duration. So we know we've known forever now that the longer you sleep, the better you are, except the people who go and sleep too long. But in generally as your long you're sleeping close to seven, eight hours, you're going to have pretty good health. If you drop below six, your mortality goes up and all kinds of diseases go up. Well, they found that if they looked at sleep regularity, and directly compared it with sleep duration, that sleep regularity was a better predictor. And if you look at the people getting less sleep here, look at this curve. It drops precipitously more and lower faster. If you're asleep, regularity is off. What is sleep regularity? It's keeping you a bed and wake times within an hour on most days. So that means you're going to bed within the same hour, you know, nine to 10 every night and you're getting up at six to seven every morning. Okay? And give or take you're pretty close to you asleep need, you know, roughly six to seven hours no less than six hours. Because that knocks you out of sleep regularity anyway. So it may be an easier protocol 10 to implement than trying to increase overall sleep. And so you may get more bang for your buck. If you know for whatever reason, your lifestyle requires you to only get seven hours a night and you feel like he could use more because like on occasion, you'll sleep in on the weekends or on vacations. Well rather than sleeping in if you keep to that regular schedule over a long period of time, you'll probably do better health wise than if you keep shifting and trying to make up a couple of hours of sleep here and there. So it's a pretty powerful study now. The caveats are a couple things. One is when they looked at just cardiovascular related mortality, sleep duration was still just as important. Okay, so clearly you want to be meeting your sleep need, but when you know you're getting pretty close to asleep need better to keep it fairly regular than going for and really, you know, sleeping in for a couple of weekends. That's not what we're talking about messing with your sleep regularity. It's on a regular basis, like the shift worker you know, that's, that speaks to shift work in a lot of ways because you're gonna have really low sleep regularity numbers because you're asleep is shifting from night to day and that transition time so you're sleeping all over the place. So your numbers are going to be terrible. The second caveat is that although this was done with a bunch of, you know, white middle aged middle income British folks, it didn't cover all different ethnicities. But there have been other studies that have been hinting at this across all all ethnicities, whether they were done in Africa or whether they were done in South America or not. So it seems that most of the data no matter what population, no matter what age, we're looking at, all pointed the same regularity being really important. Okay, so I just wanted to really put that out there because you're going to be hearing more about it. You can say you heard it here first. But more importantly, you fixed your sleep first, and started getting more regular All right. Any more questions or anyone in see any other questions in the chat box? Let's see. Okay, Pauline, take care
I don't
all right. No hands raised. Okay. I guess we're there. What do you say Angeles, we have another anything around the
thanks so super interesting stuff. Really helped me with my investment here with the aura ring kind of cool. It's really feedback is amazing, right? I mean, it's like when I when I did that thing with you, in person that was so interesting to watch to get that kind of immediate, man. Yeah. compelling. So exploring your big thanks always learned so much when you're on so super appreciate. Bye, everybody. We'll see you on Thursday book study group. And you know what's happening around town. We got the dream sharing thing on Saturday as well. So big thanks. Doctor. I'd really appreciate it was
all right. Yeah. Happy low. So right here of the Woodrow happy Tibetan New Year everybody. Yeah, I see Dilek day. All right. You know, by recording stopped
