The Women Of Ill Repute with your hosts Wendy Mesley and Maureen Holloway.
Question for you Wendy had you not become a journalist, and I know this is so unthinkable, but had you not, what else would you have become? Or would like to be, there's still time.
Well, I still would like to be but when I was a kid, I actually thought I could be like an artist. I could be a singer, only people have pointed that I have no talent. And then I thought, well, I could be a painter and I have no talent there either. So then a little bit more realistic I think I would like like, I find the brain really interesting. So I'd like to be like a brand scientist without going to university part.
Oh my god.
You know, like paying attention and studying and-
Yeah. I'm really glad you became a journalist.
Yeah. Well, that's why I'm a journalist very short attention span so-
I want to be a neuroscientist but I don't want to go to school.
What about you?
I always thought I would like to be an actor. I was an actor. I was a kid actor. And growing up, I thought, this is all I wanted to be. But then, you know, I'm too bossy. I probably make a better director, but I also like security. So I do something a little more structured, but I love being around performers, and I love spectacle. And so I think I would like to have been Melissa Bubb Clarke.
Yeah so Melissa Bubb Clark, I think she has like a dream job. I mean, she's really she's a big deal in the industry, but she might not be super famous. But she's among you know, other people. But she Melissa Bubb Clark, she's Senior Vice President of music and live events and Maple Leaf sports and entertainment, she programs produces and promotes all those live events at Toronto Scotiabank arena, which is like one of the big, big, huge venues in North America.
Does that not sound like a fun big job? I mean, you get to decide whether Madonna is coming to play, which he is, by the way, or Bruce Springsteen and she also sits on the board of the Canadian Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences. They are behind the Junos. So she's plugged in, as they say.
So she's gonna be on the podcast. Do you think we can get tickets? I wouldn't mind she could probably help us well she's probably heard that. I wouldn't mind to Ricky Gervais. Like he used to be really funny. I'm not sure he's that funny anymore, but yeah, who would you want to see?
Well, I've I, who would I want to see up? I don't know Sam Smith. He's coming up as well. I'd have to look at the list. But you know what, I used to work in this industry and people like the radio, people were always asking for tickets. And, you know, even when I could get them and nobody can anymore, I didn't want to get them and you get tired. Wrestling. I'd like to see the wrestling. I'm all about the wrestling.
Okay, well, I won't be asking for wrestling ticket. Well, any tickets, now, I'll behave. Yeah. So there's a lot of challenges in the job like, like, what do you do when you have when Madonna is coming? You know, you've got the whole concert, you've got the whole thing booked way in advance, and then the Maple Leafs make it to the Stanley Cup playoffs and they want to take over the arena, then what do you do?
You don't have to worry about that. Like maybe once every 20 years, but you know, there's a challenge there for sure. If I can't be Melissa Bubb Clark, I think the next best person would be Melissa Bubb Clark, and she's joining us today, Melissa. Good morning.
Hey, hello.
Hey, hi. How are you?
We're not going to ask you for tickets.
So can we get we're not supposed to ask you. We're not supposed to ask about tickets. So yeah-
If you would like to go to wrestling I can hook you up.
Tell us what you do. Like tell us take us through what you actually do.
Okay, so I work with an incredibly talented team at Maple Leaf Sports And Entertainment. So off the top, you gave me that very generous introduction. And I am not responsible for for some of those things, but I work with really talented people who are so I get to oversee the live entertainment department. And what that means is our group is responsible for everything that comes into our venues that are not one of the teams, not Toronto Maple Leafs, Raptors, Argos or TFC.
So Madonna?
Madonna, could be Disney On Ice, could be wrestling. So we have a programming team and they would work hand in hand with the industry. So promoters, and their job is to really make sure our venues are as full and as busy as possible and you mentioned off the top if the Leafs are in a Stanley Cup run. So what that looks like is that programming team would have to work with the leagues. And again the promoters and it's really I always liken it to a game of Tetris. It is if you think your calendar and your social life is insane. They took the calendar of the busiest Arena in Canada, and they would work with everyone to slot it in, when is the team going to be away? When are they going to play at home? What dates are available for shows? So that is a that is an incredible feat in itself.
So do you like fight with a with the sports guys? Because they really want the leafs people to like do well and go in the playoffs? And you're going that will really screw up my concerts schedule?
Is there any tension?
No, we so we would work in advance. And Tricia Sullivan who is, you know, has been doing this for quite a while and oversees the programming team, she would have great relationships with them. And yeah, there definitely is a little bit of back and forth as we try and figure out what the schedule looks like. But anytime we would schedule an artist to come in in a playoff period, we communicate that and there are certain parameters that we would put in place, you know, whether it be compensation, what other window could we move them to. So it's an ongoing discussion, for sure. But I mean, man, oh, man over the past few years, our well, obviously, I mean, I sort of joke that if there's one time, that is not sexy, to be the senior vice president music and live events, it's during a pandemic. But since then everyone is on the road, we knew this would happen, you know, everyone was writing and creating and have gone on the road. So scheduling in itself is quite formidable. Then there's the production team and the production team, really, they work hand in hand with the tours to bring it all to life, the stage, the lights, the chair, sets, etc. So all of a sort of bricks and mortar of operations of bringing that show to life. And then finally, as part of my portfolio, we are Live Nation Canada's national sponsorship agency. So we would work with RBC and American Express and Rogers and Labatt and the likes to bring programs to life.
Live Performance has now we know that with this sort of motion, we don't want to hit the demise of the recording industry. But yeah, I'll say that sure. That live performance is how artists make their money now now more than ever, and so the shows have become bigger and more lavish, with maybe the exception of Ed Sheeran, who blows everybody away all by himself. But do you find that, and this is a really big question, Melissa, but do you find that live performance has become more or less important given you can see so much yourself online?
I mean, I think we really, that was really underscore during the pandemic. So we pivoted like everybody else and we did bespoke content and online shows and digital and it was great. And in some ways, you know, that's a bit more equitable and accessible for someone who might live in Sioux Sainte Marie and can't get to Toronto for Madonna. But I think what we really learned, which we kind of knew all along, truly, is that people want to be together, like our tickets, sales are out the roof. You know, we come and probably why I've been in the industry for so long. Like, I truly walk through the aisles and it might be, it might be an artist that I personally don't listen to at home. But when I come to the arena and people like mums and kids are their, you know, best friends or their couples or their whatever it is, and they're there in it, it truly is never lost on me. So I really believe that. We've just learned more than ever that that live experience. There's honestly it feels a bit future proof in a world where not much feels future proof. The live experience of doing something you love together especially music it feels a little bit future proof. I'm not knocking wood.
So expensive, though. I mean I'm sorry to throw cold water on the on the whole idea because it does it sounds so great and I'm not a big concert person but my husband is, my daughter is but it's it's really expensive. So it's it's got to be if you've got no money, it's got to be something that you save up for forever. Or you got to have a lot of money. It's it's really tough. Like how do you how do you get around that? How do you speak to people people?
I mean, I feel so you're right. And for the AAA artists and when they come through, you know, the production of these events like they are they're expensive, they're expensive by all the crew that's behind the scenes you know, there's there's makeup there's wardrobe, there's production, there's there's all sorts of stuff, but I guess what I would say is, you know, again for the AAA artists, for sure, but live music is actually quite accessible throughout the city throughout the country. You just might be seeing a local artist at a local venue. So for sure you know the big artists that comes to Scotiabank arena although you know when you look at a scale ticket price there are accessible prices you might not be in the front row.
The wrestling for example, sorry. Yeah Maureen we're going to go, right?
Yeah, we just got to get a good photo op. No, not to dismiss wrestling at all, because it has a huge following, but you know, I'm gonna, I'm old enough to tell you the first concert I saw was Elton John, in Montreal at the forum, and I paid for my ticket, which I think was maybe less than $20 out of my allowance. And it wasn't the most phenomenally elaborate show that you this is the one where, you know, the piano rises out in the top half a whole bit. And I that's probably going back to my original point was that concerts were more accessible because artists made money off selling records. And now it all has to come down to this. So is that the case? Or I mean, or does the venue get blamed?
I mean, always, I think that, you know, ticket prices have evolved, obviously, with the times and inflation and everything else. But I do think, you know, when I look at the sports side of the business, it's interesting to me, because my husband and my son went to the Super Bowl this year, I mean, super privileged, amazing, incredible and it was really expensive. And it's funny that no one talks about that in the same way that they do artists. And it's really, I do think that there's this perception, and I actually think Amanda Marshall touched on it on your last podcast, where that should be free, or that should be more reasonably priced than anything else. But when you look at athletes and sports, like what people pay for games, you're playing like at games like Beyonce, or Madonna. When was last time Madonna was on tour? She's got five decades of music. Yeah, you, we are going to pay quite dearly for that. You know, she's not she doesn't have at home games, or sorry, 40 home games, but she's, you know, she's on the road every few years at best. And yeah, you do end up paying for that. But you know, again, to accessibility, yeah, so you're probably looking at maybe lesser known artists in some respects. So some major, you know, popular artists keep their ticket prices lower and that's a whole other conversation. But I guess the issue when you get into that is that often people scoop up those tickets, and they resell them for what the market can bear. And then, you know, Joe Smith is actually making the margin on that ticket, not the artist who should be compensated for their art.
So do you go, do you go and hang out and like wink and make faces at Madonna? Or like, do you is there someone in the wrestlers, whatever? Is there someone in particular-
Do you meet any of the performers, do you drop by and say, hey, I'm Melissa.
Sometimes. I mean, I would say since the pandemic, you know, back of house and everything is is is probably a little bit more locked down than it was before for for obvious reasons and security, like you know, and even people's access to digital you they don't want someone coming in and sneaking in a video but you know, certainly over the course of my career, I've had some some great introductions. And sometimes it's just you know, when you're about like, I was walking not long ago, we had Post Malone and I was walking to do something and he just kind of went you know, walking by I mean the friendliest guys.
Hey, Post.
That's cool.
It is cool. It is cool. What about when other silly and I've always wondered how this works like so some George Clooney, all come to town and they want to see Kiss. And they will get in touch with your office. I mean, is that is that how that works? Because, you know, you see celebrities pop up all the time and you go geez, did they get their tickets through Ticketmaster like me?
Yeah, we have an incredible group in our ticketing team that would absolutely work with you know, those types of requests and make sure that they're if we can take care of them that they are and you know, depending on what their security needs are and be able to facilitate that.
Arranging the Kiss Cam, you need to kiss cam for George and Amal.
Yeah and then sometimes it would go directly through the artist and we would just hear you know, through the promoter or the manager that so and so is coming tonight and you know, you can kind of tell when you see maybe some detail walking around or certain areas are locked down or yeah.
What about riders? Are there other still crazy riders like I know-
Like the green jellybeans?
No those were the brown smarties.
Our production team, definitely are event coordinators who have an incredibly long day, you know, they will be on the loading dock at four or five in the morning to welcome the tour and then sort of work on on the ground, make sure that they have everything that they need, they would definitely see some of that stuff. Still, you know, artists are can be particular about the environment they want or the temperature they need for their voice or, you know, they only want to drink or eat a certain thing and it is fun and it can be funny, but I certainly respect it because being on the road is no joke. Like, it's quite grueling. And I know that sounds like they get paid a ton of money, and they have fame and fortune and obviously they've chosen that life and that's incredible. But I do have a respect for it being so close to it, that being on the road and arriving at an arena and a different city, you know, after a long, either bus ride or you know, plane ride, or whatever it is. So I feel like having some of those comforts of home, or whatever it is that makes you feel at ease. I can certainly see why that would be helpful.
Just to clarify, so in case you haven't heard, it's an old story, I believe it's was a Van Halen rider in their contract that they wanted a bowl of smart m&ms, because the American and they didn't want any of the brown ones in, they wanted all the brown ones taken out. And that sort of became a legendary apocryphal story about how demanding they were, but what in fact, it was and Melissa is nodding her head, was it was put on there to make sure that they are reading the contract. And because there were other writers that were more important. So that's what that was the reason behind that.
So well excuse Van Halen for that for that reason. But I agree with you and listen, like if I were on the road all the time and I like certain kinds of wafers or whatever, I'd want those wafers with a special kind of water and a certain temperature in my room, which when you publish it, and it sounds like a brown smarty. It sounds ridiculous, but it's, but it's not really. So tell us what's your most ridiculous example?
That being said.
We've had an artist that would request like an all white room meaning like all the all the decor needed to be like creamy white.
I had a boss like that once.
You know, or I would say the funny thing about the riders is that they've evolved. So you know, 25 years ago, you might see some things in there that are like, now I honestly feel like it's more healthy food, access to a gym, quiet, you know, a quiet room somewhere, somewhere to host friends and family. So I do think that it's maybe become a little less bananas, and now a little bit more conducive to sustaining that lifestyle.
Do artists still travel by bus? Is that still the sort of the romantic notion? Or did or does the tour come in and the artists fly in or?
It depends on the artist for sure and you know what their routing would be. A lot of times, you're right, it is it would be the crew that are on the bus once in a while, you'll get an artist that comes in. But it's often and you know, it's funny, when we have shows in the winter, you know, you will hear, you know, my team will be running around like crazy because the tour is late because they've hit crazy weather or like it is really quite interesting the the mechanics and operations of touring our big vast country that experiences all seasons. One of the funny things that I would have learned when I stepped into this particular role five years ago that I just wouldn't have never given some thought to is how much weight the roof can bear at the arena. So these tours have come in and you know, as we said off the top, they've really evolved in some of them. Some of them are very stripped down and some of them are a mash up of Broadway's Circ Du Soleil. Like they're real, intricate events with massive loads that come in and lots of trucks and there's a certain time in the winter, depending on the weight of everything that needs to hang from the roof, that we could only we can only bear so much, or we need to look to route around because if snow falls and adds additional weight on the roof, that our capacity for the tour goes down. It's funny things like that, that I think you know, while our counterparts in Florida don't have to worry about that.
No they don't have to deal with that. Wow.
The Women Of Ill Repute.
I don't know very much about sports. And I don't know very much about concerts and stuff either. So I was reading about MLSE and all the names that came back like the Harold Ballard's and the John baskets and the and the story of the lease and the you know, the compromise and the Maple Leaf building and the history of the maple. Well, we can talk about Maple is after if you don't want to, but it's fascinating because it's such an all boys world that you entered. And I know that Maureen hates it when we get into sort of stereotypical feminist narratives but, but it is kind of an old boys world and now it's it's changing and your young woman is it's kind of, it's kind of cool, especially when you look at the history of MLSE It was all like sort of old gnarly boys.
Old white guys.
Yeah, I mean, MLSE is such a storied, you know, organization, we kind of joked that it's the most public private company, you know, it's yeah, it's got such an incredible history. And yet, certainly, I mean, sports and live entertainment historically have been very male dominated. I can't speak for the recording side of it. I know my peers in it, but I've always been in the live music sector, and it is very male dominated. I would suggest yeah, that is certainly starting to change. When I look back when I started 25 years ago, and I think of my journey, I started as a receptionist and then I got a job as the marketing assistant. And I didn't really think outside of those opportunities and you know, it's, we talk a ton, everyone talks a ton about representation. And I can really identify with that, because I didn't, I wasn't sad or upset. I just didn't really think jobs like outside of those types of roles were available to me. And then the more I was in it, and I was like, oh, well, maybe I'll do that and maybe I'll move into that. But yeah, I would say for both sports and entertainment, thankfully, we're getting to a point where you see more women in it. You know, from a live entertainment perspective. It's a grueling schedule, I'm out a lot of nights and weekends. That doesn't work for many people, if you're a single parent, or if you've got kids, you know, it's definitely a choice you make.
Well, now you've got all these titles like your senior VP at MLSE. So it's like very, it's like a big, huge job. So good for you.
Thank you. I appreciate that. I feel incredibly lucky. I feel very grateful to my younger self, who when I told my parents that I was going to take a job as a as a receptionist at a new startup concert promoter. And listen, that's totally respectable gig. I had just graduated from university and they were like, pretty sure that's the direction you want to go in. And I just was like, yeah, I think I can make something of it. I think it's gonna be fine.
And you couldn't sing either.
Like, honestly i have zero talent, like, I can't sing, I can't hold a note. I can't play an instrument. So I sort of always joked that the way I got into it was I could figure out the business side of it a little bit.
What is your what is your, uh, your degree in?
Oh, geez, I went to Carleton University and-
So did I.
Did you?
Yes.
Nice. Go Ravens. And I, I took a degree in mass communication and sociology.
Wow. Well, I just I started in journalism switched to film studies.
Well, that's relevant to what you ended up doing.
Yeah. Well, I guess it is. But it's funny that the reason why I asked you this is my old oldest son who's 30 now, he went to Western and he took he was at Ivy business school. But what he really wanted to do was work for MLSE, he's a sports fanatic. And he actually did have a couple of interviews, but the the entry level jobs were, he couldn't afford to take them. And, and I think, you know, he's, he's very successful now. But it was his dream. And the fact that you came out of school and took a job as a receptionist, and I can see your parents going, really, but it worked out for you. And maybe that's something that a lot of people who want these big dream jobs have need to realize, is you really do have to work your way up. It's not going to be handed to you.
I mean, I'm sure I you know, you both have such incredible careers. Like, yeah, I think that's true for most of us is, you know, you step in with humility, you work your butt off, that's what I tell, I have a 17 year old and a 14 year old, and our 17 year old is just wrapping up grade 11. So she's starting to think about, you know, what post secondary could look like and it's funny, because when they were younger, they didn't really know or care what I did. Now, they're a little bit older, and they, they have some appreciation, and they want to go to shows. And every once in a while, I'll get a text from my daughter, like so and so wants to know what you at school. And I, you know, I kind of laugh a little bit, I will give all the credit in the world when I was in my fourth year of university, and to write my thesis. And I started doing a project on women's studies in Africa. And my professor, Professor Mainone, I think he's since passed on. But I started writing my thesis. And I thought, you know, I actually want to write my thesis on the Tragically Hip.
Real, real, real pivot.
I was pivoting long before pivoting was a thing. And yeah, I don't know, one night I was just and this is maybe the beauty of youth. I didn't really overthink things sometimes in the way that I do now. But I thought, you know, my favorite band, and they were really, really popular in Canada. They weren't as popular outside of Canada. What did you know, the sociology, what did what did Canadian and Canadian Ness have to do with all that? But I went to my professor, and I said, listen, I'm thinking of doing this and he was like, absolutely, that's what you should do, you should go for it. And I honestly think without that, I don't know that I would have found this because I started doing information interviews within the industry and talking to certain people. And it was so funny, because so many of the people that I had reached out to they were a bit I don't know if jaded is the right word, but they were very, you know, they were generous with their time, but they were also like, this isn't all fun and games, you know, like it's really hard to do this and this isn't all fun and games. And I kind of thought again In my, whatever, 21 year old self, I was like, what a downer?
Well, it's amazing how brave we are when we are briefly perhaps when we're teenagers or 21. Because one of my first jobs was answering the frickin phone at CHUM and you walked in you said, I got an album, will you play my album? The guy is like, well, you showed up, you're in person, you're 12, but I'll play your album because you showed up. So I think it is all, you know, and I got paid, I don't know. $4 an hour for answering the phone and it was a joke. But it led to one thing that led to another thing that led to another thing. And I think-
Answering the phone people, unite!
Yeah, exactly. No, my first job was with as a receptionist, as well, but it wasn't a construction company. So it didn't help me.
Yeah, you got to start somewhere. So so now I read that you, you what are you you're one of the most powerful women in 2021.
Way less powerful today.
But now you're a woman of ill repute. So this is sort of how we got that woman of influence women of ill repute. It's kind of the same, same thing. So yeah.
I just want to ask you, I'm going to tell you first of all, you mentioned the Tragically Hip. That was my I saw the last show at at Scotiabank before they went to Kingston for and it was. And it was a I bought the tickets as a gift for my husband. And so most money I've ever spent on tickets, because they were really good and it was the best show. And I started crying in the parking lot and just cried all the way through and I've seen other shows since then, but that is one of the most intimate experiences you can have in a venue that size is going to ask you, what's you what's your favorite? Or are name one of your top five shows.
So it's funny that you say that, honestly, mine would be and I've had the privilege of seeing, like, literally hundreds, if not maybe into the 1000s of shows over the last 25 years. But the one that sticks out is I was fortunate enough to see the Tragically in Kingston. So for that very last show.
Oh, you saw, I just got goosebumps you saw the show after that. Yeah.
And you know, the things I remember is the venue was a million degrees. And we were so to your point about intimacy, we were you know, 13, 14,000 people together, maybe a little less in Kingston, but we were together and people were laughing and crying and singing. And I couldn't believe that Gore Downey was mustering his courage and energy and the entire band actually, to do this sort of live love letter to Canada. And I remember being in that moment thinking, this is history. It's so special. And I will remember this forever. So I would say that would be I've again, I've had the privilege of seeing some incredible stuff, but that would be definitely at the top of the list.
Okay, choked up.
You know, I felt that I felt not not as I didn't have as much of a history but my daughter and I went to see Stevie Nicks last night.
Oh, wow. Yeah.
Oh, I love her. That's very old time. I'm glad your daughter was was into it.
Everybody loves Stevie.
Yeah, she's she's she loves she's, she's she loves all the cool kids stuff. But she loves Fleetwood Mac for sure. And at the end, Stevie sang Landslide.
Oh.
And she had photos of Christine McVie up the whole time.
Wow.
And I just like I started weeping because she was so incredible and vulnerable. And, you know, she does that night after night and she still managed to make you feel that, you know, she's sort of doing that for the first time. And when you find when you see an artist who's able to do that, like it's just lightning in a bottle.
I introduced Fleetwood Mac at Maple Leaf Gardens.
Wow.
I came out, it was as long time ago and I just came out and was like hi everybody I'm Maureen I'm from CKFM. And here's Fleetwood Mac and then there's 50 minutes goes by before they out.
I remember those days when we would go to the radio stations and we would ask the very popular DJs and broadcasters to come out.
But I wanted the band to start as soon as I said Fleetwood Mac but I had to sort of trot off the stage and everybody started grumbling.
Well did a little warm up.
Each to his own or her own .Melissa you're an absolute joy to talk to thank you so much for taking us backstage as it were.
So I don't get to ask her about why is everybody still obsessed with the Maple Leafs.
The sports side I think we've established that's the sports.
Yeah so she can say whatever she wants right because she said these she's the entertainment girl.
yeah go least go that generational like it is so it's it's insane to me where you know, you travel you go on people or at Leafs jersey.
Yeah. Well, it, it unites us in our in our constant heartbreak.
It unites us and you know, you again, you think of as you know, Canadians, that's a long winter that we go through. And yeah, it really brings people together and seeing generations to come into it and it was great when the Raptors came online and you know, I don't know, I think all that stuff makes Toronto, pretty badass to have, you know, a really legendary NHL team and an NBA team and all the shows that we get to bring here. Our city certainly punches above our weight with regards to all of that.
Oh, you're so positivel. You're so optimistic. It's lovely. And yeah, you got a lot of syllables in your in your title, which is great and it's been lovely talking to Melissa. And the wrestling, two tickets we'll be in touch.
Yes. Thank you, Melissa. And we won't bug you for tickets.
Can I quickly tell you one thing? Thanks
Of course.
I just wanted to say that. Wendy, this is kind of funny. So last summer, we have since bought a place in Prince Edward County.
Oh.
And we were my husband and I our kids were at camp and we went out. We were staying at the Royal Hotel in Picton.
I live in Picton.
You do? Oh, okay got it. So I I went we went across the street to what's it called, Rust and Co. and we an extra drink, and we were feeling a little and then I looked over and I saw you and I said to my husband. I was like that's Wendy Mesley.
Oh, you shouldv'e said hello.
My brother has such a crush on you.
My dad thinks you're hot.
And your and your brothers not like 100 because I was like so offended when everyone said oh, my dad thinks I'm like your dad.
No, no it was my brother anyway, we had this like celebrity sighting and picked it and we were so excited. And Maureen, of course, I heard your voice on the radio for a million years. This is a real privilege for me. So thank you so much.
Well, it's just been lovely to have you and say hi to everyone say hi to Brendan Shanahan. I used to work for yeah, yeah.
She's your old boss?
No, she's not at Universal. She's gone on the board at Karis as well so.
She's the chair of that board.
She's the chair of the board, yeah. Yeah, you remind me quite a bit of her. Or she reminds me of you. And I mean that it was a huge compliment.
I'll take that as a compliment.
All right. Great to talk to you.
Great to talk to you yeah. Thank you so much.
Bye now.
Thank you both.
Maureen did you notice I snuck in one question about women.
Yeah. It's good. Just to clarify, and I'm preaching to the choir, because you know what I mean, it's not that I don't like to ask women about the work life balance. No, I don't like to ask. Because I just think it's something that you would not ask a man. And yes, she's got two young children. This is Melissa has two young children and a big job, but nobody says to a man. Wow, you have two kids in a big job how do you manage?
How do you do it?
And I mean, the truth is, there it is a bigger challenge for women. Because no matter what, we're still the ones that do or care most about housework. And we're still with young children more responsible for their upbringing. You can't get away from that. It's a biological imperative.
Yeah.
So it's valid question. I just it
No, no, I know, I'm sort of kidding. And sort of not because, I mean, Melissa is a little bit younger than than I am then than we are. And yet she still felt the pressure of being, you know, having her kids we were the nanny in the in the in the playground.
Yeah or taking taking being criticized for having help.
Yeah so it's still a thing, which is why we still would at least is why I think I still talk about it, but I agree with you. We're not like for me, I used to do speeches until Murray Hannon who was on the podcast 1000 years ago, when we first started.
Only last year.
Oh was it? It goes quickly. And she pointed out exactly what you're saying is so ridiculous. Like how many times do I get asked to speak about work life balance and men's conferences like never.
Never.
Yeah, they beat drums or something. I don't know what they do.
She is a she's a lovely accomplished woman who has a really interesting job and I I'm I'm happy for her because I was gonna ask her what do you want to do next but what else would you want to do?
Be a singer.
Women Of Ill Repute was written and produced by Maureen Holloway and Wendy Mesley. With the help from the team at the Sound Off Media Company and producer Jet Belgraver.
