advocates of clemency for Sarah Gonzalez McLennan are taking the next step in their efforts. Gonzales McLennan is serving at least 25 years in prison for the murder of Lauren's man how sasco But her advocates want the public to understand that in their estimation, she was the victim of sex trafficking. To learn more, I talked to two folks who are involved in these efforts. So welcome to the Kansas reflector podcast. My name is Clay wire stone. I'm the opinion editor at the reflector, and I am joined by a retired journalist Dave Ranney. Hi, Dave, and Michelle McCormack the executive director of the Kansas Coalition Against Sexual and Domestic Violence. Welcome to shelf.
Thank you. Thanks for having us.
So let's start off with the biggest picture question we can. Dave And Michelle, you've been offering support on this, you've, you've given a couple of presentations here within the last couple of weeks about Sarah Gonzalez McGlinn. And her appeal for clemency. That's with Governor Laura Kelly now. So what are you? What message are you bringing to folks? What are you What are you trying to bring home right now?
Well, the message was that need to make clear from the beginning that Sarah did kill Harold Hal sasco in January of 2014. That's never been in dispute flowing. Sort of, but it's never been resolved. Why? Okay. And so she was found guilty of first degree murder, sentenced to 150. And which was later reduced to hard 25. But over the years, it has become clear that there was a lot of sexual abuse, rape going on in the in the household. And that is that's the explainer in all this is like, Well, why? You know, we may as well say it, she almost cut his head off. It was very brutal. She had ground up his sleeping pills, put them in his beer, he passed out, and she cut his throat. And then after that she wrote freedom on the wall behind him with his blood. And that's, that's grotesque. It's very sorted. I apologize. But the question is not whether she killed out sasco The question is why. And you know, we would argue to the Gup, we are asking the governor to see her as a sex trafficked young woman East. We are saying that Al sasco sex trafficked Sarah for his own purposes. Sex trafficking is not limited to pimps and prostitutes and seedy motel rooms. He basically was sex trafficking to her for himself. And, you know, we can go into all that. But we are. We're just asking Governor Kelly to recognize what was going on to see that she's already served 10 years, we, as advocates are saying that 10 years is long enough. And there, there are lots of issues here, that really should be resolved or addressed, I guess, politically.
Michelle, you're you're someone who professionally works with survivors of sexual and domestic violence, when you hear even like the the minute or so summary that that day was just giving. What does that bring to your mind? How, you know, how do you, you know, how do you categorize that based on on all the experience that you've had and work that you've done? Yeah,
absolutely. I think that, you know, I understand how this might be complicated for folks, because I, you know, I don't want to deny the fact that there are other folks, house family, for example, who may identify as victims as well, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't dispute that. But I think you know, what, what really strikes me is that at the time this happened for Sarah, I don't think that we were talking enough nearly enough in criminal courts or in our society about the impact of the kind of exploitation she was experiencing not only at the end and some of Mr. sasco. But also, you know, it's been disclosed in the public presentations, that she is somebody who I would describe as likely having complex trauma. She experienced victimization and childhood had some, you know, another victimization as a teenager, which created these vulnerabilities. And I think what, you know, didn't get the chance to see the light of day in her criminal court procedures was how that those vulnerabilities were, were exploited by Mr. sasco. And it contributes to not only the vulnerabilities and the the untreated trauma that Sarah experienced in childhood. But also when you add on top of that, then the very cool ways he continued to be abusive to her to limit her options to to emotionally and psychologically convinced her that her worth in this world was what her body could provide to him. And the toll of that, that it took on her mental health and how that contributes to ultimately what she did to him.
So let me ask Michelle, a question.
To reporters.
Do you think, sir, is case? So this trial was in 2015? The crime was in 2014. About a year later she was tried? Do you think this case would be tried the same and 2024?
I would hope that and in there's a particular reason why I think that I'd have to go back and double check the date on it. But we did in Kansas, it through some of the legislative efforts to address human trafficking in general, but also obviously inclusive of things. They're experienced, like debt bondage, and also sexual exploitation. You know, it's now that that victimization can now be legally used as an affirmative defense. And I don't believe that that was available to Sarah at the time. Now, I, we still, I think, have some work to do to improve those laws in order to truly address the reliefs that might be needed for someone who is experiencing victimization, like Sarah did. But I certainly think that if Sarah had a defense attorney who had that tool available to them, and a competent defense attorney who understood trauma, who had access to the science, we have now about how the neurobiology of trauma happens Brain Body impacted by trauma, I think that focus on a jury or a judge couldn't be compelled to see, to see this in a different way. So it's more complex than it was allowed to ever be understood. And I hope that there would be a different path for that now.
And also, though, just to be absolutely clear about this, the kinds of things in this trial we're talking about, obviously, the murder is an extreme and violent thing. But the things that how sasco did to Sarah Gonzalez, these are not like necessarily super unusual things to see in the domestic violence world.
Not at all, not at all, you know, the tactics that he use, fit into all the categories that we train when I provide professional training to law enforcement and prosecutors and advocates and healthcare providers and any person who will ever listen. You know, we talked about the you know, the tactics that are used in sexual violence, domestic violence in the emotional control tactics, the way somebody is identified as vulnerable, how someone will, you know, groom them, isolate them from supports, using you know, emotional belittling tactics to try to chip away their self worth like that. The just, you know, the the experiences that Sara describes, in her own words match the experiences of hundreds and hundreds of Kansans that I've worked with in 25 years, I have been an advocate.
Let me let me make a point that a common concern I guess, is, you know, she's just making this up, you know, this can't be and of course, she's in prison. She wants out so she's gonna make up all this these stories. Why should I believe her? Well, let me tell you, her story. If you're going to make it up, your story is going to change over time and your story is going to change in reaction to different facts or arguments that come up. Sarah's stories never changed. I mean, from day one One, Sara has been evaluated by two forensic psychologists, both of whom reach the same conclusion that she's no longer a risk to society. And her story doesn't change with either one of them. And these are professionals who are very accustomed to detecting whether someone is telling you the truth or making stuff up. And so there's that. And then what Michelle has touched on it, there's so much of it as a textbook case. But then the other thing is that we had a conversation long ago as advocates. And I am shocked by what went on in that house. And I'm surrounded by advocates that are like old age. We see this every day. I mean, this is, this is what, to the lay public, we would doubt. Oh, that can't be you know, she would just leave, she could do this. She could do that. They see it all the time. And I that's one of the things that's struck me in all this is like, I thought I knew, but I hate me. And I know not compared to these guys. They see it all the time.
of the presentations that you pulled together you did in Lawrence and pika, I believe. What were some of the kind of the new pieces or the the extra information that you were wanting to share with folks?
Well, I've made the point and filing for clemency. I mean, I'm a I'm a reporter. And reporters do worry about overkill and a story. And I thought that we had done enough in the clemency packet and I was worried about putting in too much. So we filed for clemency. And then after that, in going through the files came to two realizations. One is and I should back up and say we have the evidentiary files. After Sarah's appeal, her attorney said, Sarah, I have these evidentiary files, they don't belong to me, they belong to you. I'll do whatever you want with. And I said, Sarah, I want those evidentiary files. Okay, so in those files, it just so happens that a day or two before the murder a mother a single mother of two teenage girls, high school aged girls, goes to see their high school counselor in Lawrence, and says, I need your help. In in filing a no contact order, because how sasco will not quit grooming my daughter's. And I've I've seen the interview. And they're she's pissed. I mean, she's really pissed. This guy is driving a wedge between her and her daughters. And he will not stop and she's talked to him. She's talked to them, he will not stop. He's given them money behind her back. He's meeting with them behind their back, taking them to dinner behind their back her back. And I guess the straw that broke the camel's back is he tells him he's gonna buy them a car. And of course, they're telling mom, I don't have to do what you say. And you know, like, he's gonna buy us a car. And verse mom is trying to develop, well, to get your car, you have to do this, you have to do that. And sasco say, well, I'll buy you a car. So it's that kind of stuff that is going on? Well, sesco still living at this time. And then a day or two later. Don't hold me to the calendar. But a day or two later. His body you know, he's missing. And you know, he's missing for a day I think and then they finally break in the house a day later. And then they discovered Well, after the body is discovered course it's always it's on TV and all this stuff. So the mother comes down and tells detectives just what I told you. And she's very upset. So the next day because now it's dominating the news, and the girls come down and talk to place and they say exactly the same thing. I mean, mom is not making Get up. And the girls are very upset. And I mean, it's very dramatic. But they say that you know how sasco told them, they don't listen to their mom, they come live with him, he'll give him money he'll pay for, you know, they can always work with CCS don't have to worry about money. I'll take care of you, blah, blah, blah. And so the girl is also in parting with the place. It's like, do you have anything else to say? And they said, Well, you know, he told us that we moved in with him, there would be one rule. Now keep in mind, this is a 52 year old man talking to high school, sophomore, juniors, okay, somewhere in there. The one rule is that my drugs are your drug will be your drugs, and your drugs will be my drugs. So there's that, which I think establishes that he was a groomer. And that basically use the time he was using the tactics on them that he had used on Sarah. And then the other one was, I happen to be in the Shawnee County Courthouse once in way back. And I just typed on. I just typed in hell sasco And the courthouse computer. And I find out that he's been married four times to three different women in a span of seven years. And so in putting the putting the files away, cataloging them, there's no interview with the ex wives. I mean, well, how can that be, especially when the police know that there's a sexual element to all this, you know, nobody had called the ex wives. So one thing leads to another and we arranged for a private investigator to locate the ex wives. And it's a woman and she did. And the ex wives all agree that he was addicted to porn. He was addicted to sex. And he was attracted to underage girls. So there and they all blamed their divorces on his infidelity ways that he just he just couldn't control himself. And, you know, so those two elements, I think, are new to the presentations that we did, that we do that to peek at Lawrence.
In the shell hearing the story about the you know, the the the other girls, is that is that pattern situation, something that you also see. Yeah,
absolutely. I think that, you know, it strikes me when I hear Dave recount that like one of course, you know, the point is not just to disparage how and make folks think like, well, I guess he got what he deserved, because of course, the best case scenario would have been that there would have been intervention prior to that. Right. But I do think that it validates what they're experienced. It establishes that he was using really predatory behaviors, not just with Sarah. And, and so, you know, I think that it's important to understand that bothers me the most, I think, is that none of this information was considered in any of the criminal processes. It wasn't even considered in the early media coverage, right? It was the part that got sensationalized, which, of course, was her her acts of violence, which I, to an extent, understand that that Shocking, isn't normal. And folks go, but surely there could have been some other option. And I think that when I hear the story about the the teenage girls, and how exasperated that mom was, I think like folks who do not understand sometimes how powerful the tactics he was using are and how limited sometimes your options are, in order to respond and to get assistance. And, and I think like we have built this entire kind of process, to expect to the people who are victimized and most vulnerable to have the most responsibility to save themselves. And I think what the heck are we doing? And why don't we build much better processes to take a look at the folks who are causing harm and intervene with them and put the responsibility on making change onto the right person?
That's an excellent Boy, and that gets to my boy earlier about their political issues here. I mean, that's a, that's a political issue that needs to be addressed.
So they just going kind of going back a little bit. I think one of the questions folks might have it, especially seeing that you've been a really dogged advocate, in this case, is how did you come across Sarah Gonzalez McLennan, Allah, what's what's, what's your background with with her?
Well, I was a volunteer at the women's prison for 14 years before COVID. So I can't remember when you have to do the math, but I was there 14 years before COVID, once a week. And Sarah was in my group. And it was an inmate run group called stopping reaching out from within it's a Stop Violence Program. And sir, showed up. And she'd been there. Three or four months, I'm guessing. And, but she came to the group and sat down. And it was like, Oh, my God, she was so I'm guessing she was 19 or 20. But she was so young, she looked like she was 15. And you kind of have to understand the vibe of prison. But all the women knew that she was young, in the group. I mean, all the way within the group. They knew she was young, and there was this, they were protecting her. Because they know, I mean, the inmate, you know, like Michelle was saying, we see this all the time. Well, when you go to a women's prison, all the inmates know, I mean, a woman's prison is ground zero for trauma and domestic violence and sexual abuse. And all the women know. So anyway, I was struck by Sarah. And you know, she's so young, she's very quiet or shy. And I tell people that you rolled your eyes at this, but I tell people that Sarah was a wave. And because my experience at TCF was that this is not the women's first rodeo, you have to work baby mitts. They all have they took them took most of the inmates took them a long time to get there. And I call them, you know, a hardened survivor's. Sarah doesn't have a criminal record. She's in prison, she she doesn't have a long list of previous offenses. And she's not hardened. I mean, she's, she's not hardened at all. And so anyway, I'd be, I'd be started following her case. Because it's in the newspaper. I mean, I'm not sneaking around or anything. It's in the newspaper. And when she came up for the appeal, you know, we talked about this one thing, and, but to get to your point, now, I'm retired and still doing this, and I'm no longer at the prison, because COVID kind of rearranged our lives. But to answer your question, I'm a reporter, a newspaper reporter, that's my that's my person. And this is a good story. And a good reporter will not walk away from a good story. And so that's really why, you know, a lot of people ask that question. We know what is going on here. And it's like, Hey, man, that's a good story. And no, I'm not walking away from this. And you would mock up, you wouldn't walk away from a story like this, either.
So, if you, you have the audience's show up and to peek in warrants. You have people who listen to this podcast, if they if they see the information you've pulled together. What are you asking people to do? What are you wanting folks to do at this point?
Yeah, at this point, we, I mean, we have a state described earlier, the clemency applications already been submitted. It's with the governor and our staff and and we've, we've met with them and and they have asked us really good questions they've had they've It feels to us I think the group of folks who's met with them and had engagements with their staff that they're taking. They're considering it with seriousness that it is it's not just being dismissed out of hand as an unrealistic possibility. I mean, obviously, we're guarded in our hope, because there is no requirement for the governor to grant clemency. But they've asked for some additional steps to to be put in place some follow up questions that we've answered and other things that have been accomplished. And so now we're just sort of waiting to see if there's going to be a determination. And so, you know, it was important to us and the group of supporters that, that the general public, if they have thoughts and feelings about this, we want them to know that it is with the governor and to express their support for the clemency application. And so we've encouraged folks who are attending the presentations and in in our interviews that if they feel so compelled to please email, the governor's constituency services, folks or call that line, and, and, you know, let her know, let her staff know that there is public support for this that and it wasn't just to generate support, I think we wanted to be able to answer some of the questions for the public who might want to know like, well, what what would be the the risk and the impact on public safety, if clemency were to be granted? And so we wanted to answer those questions. And that folks feel satisfied with the answers we're able to provide. And they are they do think that there's a there's been an injustice here that they expressed that to the governor?
Oh, Bill, they got it, whatever it is, that it's been the reasons for optimism, the reasons for pessimism. I think we're all familiar with, why didn't she just leave argument. And there's still a lot of work to do on getting people to understand that women in this situations can leave that if they if they could leave. They wish they would. But that's, that's pretty much. I did want. I did want to make a point that I wanted, Michelle to respond to. And we were in a meeting. We were talking Well, we back up, people need to understand that the the root allegation here is that how that Mr. sasco was raping took her in, got her confidence, made her beholden. It got her indebted to him through chat, a nose job, and then he said, You're gonna have to pay for it. And then he basically said, You owe me a lot of money. And and then it turns into, it turns sexual, he uses coercion, to begin having sex with her, and it's not consensual sex, while in Kansas, non consensual sex is rape. So he begins to rape her. Now. I just posed the question in this meeting, I said, you know, it just really troubles me that a guy who knows that this woman has been raped, Ken is dealing with all those issues, that he would rape her on top of that. And and the response was, yeah,
absolutely. Like,
it was like, Dave, what planet are you go? And yeah,
it you know, I can get that that's maybe hard to believe, although I think what I actually said to Dave like, well, isn't it nice that you've lived in a world where that isn't a reality? That's a nice privilege. Because in my experience, that him learning of her rape when she was a teenager, while she was he learned about while she was employed at CCS, that, to me actually indicates, he probably saw that I'm speculating, of course, that as a green light, that she was a candidate, if you will, that she would the trauma of experiencing that would create opportunity for him to exploit her further. In boy, we see that I mean, when you study the behaviors of perpetrators of sex offenses, that is classic sort of like you know, they're looking for the single mom who's overwhelmed and so that you know, and then offer to come in and be a knight in shining armor and then that gives access to the children and or, you know, there are so many examples right like As they they the youth pastor who creates a relationship with the impoverished family and like, like and take you on the camping trip, and then people go, Oh my gosh, I can't believe, you know, how do they get access in order to harm that person? Well, they're looking for vulnerabilities folks who are perpetrating like this. And that's what I believe happened is that Sarah comes to work for him, he is aware, and he picks up on that vulnerability, and then that becomes sort of his opening, in order to further exploit.
Sarah went to work at CCS when she was 14, almost 15, she was there for almost a year, roughly a year. She's 16. And she is raped by a friend of a friend. And he burns her with a cigarette with his cigarette. And then she goes to work. And here are these fresh burn marks on her arm that are, you know, kind of glaring. And that's when how Mr. sasco is like, let's go on here, they finds out. She had been raped her parents were going through a very ugly divorce. And, you know, she's, you know, changing school, there's just a lot of things that make her very vulnerable. And Sarah will tell you that he didn't pay much attention to her when, you know, she started there, and her mom, you know, would bring her to and from work and he would see the parent dynamic and, you know, left her alone, but just as soon as he saw that, cigarette burns, found out she'd been re find out, there's a divorce going on, find out that, you know, Sarah's estranged from her parents. Boom, sir, will tell you, he became very friendly.
So I think one of the takeaways here as as we wrap up, is just, it's I mean, this is a case that's pressing, we're talking about it now. But Michelle, we were chatting about this before we began taping, there's an awful lot of work to be done. Beyond this.
Yeah, I think there are some larger sort of issues that we get concerned about, I think there's some larger kind of justice focused issues that I like to connect the dots for, for people and and some of that includes, you know, the, the way the procedures are set up in the criminal court system, could be looked at, I think, to to better account for, you know, how could we possibly have given Sarah, her due process in this without fully understanding all of these dynamics? Had all of this stuff been allowed to be considered and they still convicted? Her? I don't think we'd be here, I think the injustice is, is that that wasn't the the root cause of her of the behavior that she has she was responsible for, weren't allowed to be considered, though in order as mitigating factors. And I think that needs to change. We
should point out real quick that during the trial, before the trial started, the judge ruled, the prosecutor had filed a motion and the judge had favored the motion, that the sex and the drugs in the house were not to be discussed. Because the argument being that house Aska was dead and couldn't defend himself in court, and you have a right to face your accuser. That's one of the pillars in our judicial system. And so now, during the trial, the psychologist will got up and said that well, you know, there was a sexual relationship. But it wasn't rape. And there was no there was drug use. Well, remember when I told you about the the girls saying that he had one rule, their drugs would be hit? Well, Sara will tell you that she had all the marijuana and all the dog because she wanted you know, at 17 You know, here's this 50 year old guy given a 17 year old girl open access. And you know, she's vulnerable and see self medicating.
So, you know, I think the the other issue that I think is is just still some work to do on is that I think that You know, in Kansas in particular, right folks would resonate with like, understanding we have a standard ground law, that there are self defense protections that if you're in defense of yourself or others and you cause harm, that that's understandable. Those you know, release are those opportunities in our in our system don't often get granted in the same way to victims and survivors of domestic and sexual violence. And I think that's because frequently when a victim or survivor responds in a way that is fighting back and or, you know, causing this level of harm that Sarah did, it does not happen in the acute moment of danger. If they, you know, frequently that's really not understanding like how when you're experiencing that kind of victimization, how, you know, you don't get to choose between fight flight and freeze. And frequently, victims report experiencing freeze more than anything. And so when they do when they're at their most desperate when they're at they're sort of where they do not see any other options and they perpetrate. They fight back, it often is at a time that does when you're not a part of all of this seem like Well, yeah, that was manipulative. That was premeditated. You know, that was you had other options sort of thing. But I think that really doesn't take into account all the dynamics that goes into victimization, and that we need to further define what self defense looks like when it comes to sexual and domestic violence.
Well, Michelle, Dave, thank you so much for coming in today. I really appreciate it.
