And you're listening to the think inclusive podcast. Recording
from my office in beautiful Marietta, Georgia, you are listening to the think inclusive podcast episode 14. Today we have Emily and Kyle from the accessible style podcast, which if you're going to listen to any other podcasts related to inclusion and disability, this is the one. They keep it real about issues within the disability community. We talked about how and why they started the accessible stall. Also, we have a very interesting conversation about inclusive versus isolated special education schools and classrooms. After the podcast, please stop by our brand new think inclusive store. Think inclusive.us/shop Where podcast listeners can take 30% off their order with promo code pod 30. So without further ado, here is the interview. So today on the think conclusive podcast, I have Emily Le TAO and Kyle catch. Dorian, did I say that correct? Yes, you did. Oh, this is fantastic. Okay, so Emily and Kyle are the CO hosts of the accessible stall podcast. Emily is a passionate disability rights activist, public speaker, writer and digital communications consultant. All of her work is driven by our firm belief that if we want the world to be accessible to people with all types of disabilities, we must make ideas and concepts readily disability accessible to the world. Kyle does not identify as an activist, but he is dedicated to bringing about greater understanding of the disability experience. And he also works in the field of communications. Welcome, Emily. And Kyle.
Thank you for having you.
So Emily, and I have worked together before, on stuff with thinking cluesive. And it's been a while since I've actually talked with you, Emily. So I'm really happy to catch up. And Kyle, I don't know, other than listening to the accessible stall. So I did, I did do a little homework. And I did listen to a couple of episodes. And so I want to talk, you know more about that. But since Kyle, I don't really know, your background, maybe maybe you could tell me and the the listeners of think inclusive, kind of who you are, and what you know, why you were drawn to the accessible stall as, as, you know, as a way of talking about disability.
Well, I got my start in disability in the same way that I guess a lot of activists I know did by landing an internship in Washington DC, it seems to be a rite of passage for a lot of us. And from there, I just I was lucky enough to land the job. And from there, it's snowballed into something outside of disability. But because of the contacts I made during my time in DC, it's sort of just stayed sort of like a professional hobby, I guess. And what, what started the accessible so our friends were tired of hearing Emily and I argue all the time. And we had this idea to make a podcast for quite some time. And what finally pushed us over the edge was this was this article about Whole Foods pulling pre peeled oranges off of their shelves. And we thought we had so many feelings about it. We were like we have to do this project right now. And we did and that night, we recorded like three episodes. And then over the next month, we worked out a plan to put them out. And that was the birth of the accessible soul. Fantastic.
So, Emily, the the kind of the impetus for this podcast. I guess, why don't you just tell me a little bit about why. You know, Whole Foods pulling pre peeled oranges off their shelves. Why is that a big deal.
So, it caused an interesting debate within the disability community. And there was discussion from environmentalists about how pre peeled oranges that are then put in plastic packaging are extremely wasteful. But on the other side, that is a matter of access for the disability community. People who may not have dexterity to peel and orange people who may not have the ability to do eating orange. And I suppose the way nature intended it to be eaten, find that a prefilled, Orange is making a healthy food more accessible to them. And so environmentalist and disability activist really butt heads over this issue. And so Kyle and I, rather than coming to a very decisive conclusion on the issue, wanting to explore it from all angles, and really have an in depth conversation about the conflicting needs to, in this case, save the earth and also ensure that disabled people have access to healthy foods. So when we realized that something as small as a prefilled, orange could lead to an issue as big as the Earth versus eating, we decided that it was time to get down to business and have a conversation about it and record it so that hopefully, other people would weigh in. And that was, indeed what happened. That was when we started engaging in a larger dialogue around disability issues.
So I understand you've recorded about how many episodes so far?
I think we're on number 36 now. Okay.
And so, and that's been in a relatively short time, is that correct?
Yeah, I mean, just over a year, we celebrated our one year podcast bursary on April 18. And we've been steamrolling ahead.
That's great. You've already been thinking, please have podcasts. I mean, we're, you know, this is episode 14. So. So that's great. I love it. Well, okay, so the the podcasts that I listened to you. Were the one about you getting your hearing aids, Emily.
Okay, so a more recent one. Yeah, I haven't
listened to them. And then the the ones that I've listened to, are the most recent are some of the most recent ones, including, and this is the one that I found. particularly compelling was the sheltered workshops versus the the sweatshops. Yeah, very good conversation. And I was I
think, my favorite Yeah. Yes,
yes. It and I think it's a good reflection of the relationship that both of you have, and the respect that both of you have in disagreeing with each other. And then coming to like what you said, Emily, and not coming to a conclusion like, well, I guess we solve that problem. But more like, like, it's still kind of open for debate. This is what I'm thinking. And this is what you're thinking, I know that other people have thoughts about this. So. So it's a, it was a very refreshing conversation.
I don't think that we are actually ever going to really solve problems. And in fact, I would say we do a good job of creating more of them sometimes and stirring up a little bit of controversy. But disability is so nuanced and complex, that there's really no right or wrong answer and a lot of cases. And so it's important to us not to have a firm stance on anything that can't be discussed. You know, if you're gonna have a stance on something, you have to be able to pick it apart, talk about it, discuss why you feel that way. And so that's what we try to do we try to poke holes in each other's logic and then come out with a stronger perspective on the other side.
Yes, I believe that that's, I think that's a good way to look at a lot of complex issues. So something that we tried to discuss on the on this podcast is issues related to inclusive education. So there's kind of the the broader idea of inclusion, the big I inclusion, and then we do get down into the weeds a little bit about inclusive education. And so since I had both of you on here, I wanted to pose a question to you and maybe we could have a just a mini conversation. Because Because inclusive education is one of those very nuanced issues that a lot of people have very strong feelings about. So I don't know who wants to go first. But let me let me ask this question. So what would be your impression Both Emily and Kyle have the idea of the self contained special education classroom. So just to be clear, that's a classroom that is designed, and really only for students that have a particular disability or type of disability, but it's really only for students with disabilities.
So you're talking to two people whose education was pretty much diametrically opposed to one another. I went to a mainstream school, mainstream public school, throughout my education and Kyle actually went to a school specifically for disabled people. So certainly we we have some interesting perspectives on that. For me, I feel that I benefited strongly from being placed in a mainstream school. And interestingly enough, my parents were posed with the option of sending me to the exact same school that Kyle went to. And they chose not to, because they felt that sending me to a mainstream school would be both practical in terms of being close to my house, and also ensuring that I had a solid educational foundations. So I think I benefited from it. Largely because I wasn't put in a self contained classroom, I was very much included in everything that was going on. Granted, I think my situation might have been slightly unique in that I did not have an individualized education program, I actually have had meetings for Section 504. So I basically had a section 504 plan, which is to say that my needs were largely physical rather than academic. So I think that made it a little bit easier in most cases, for teachers not to sort of look at me as extra work. And I really hate to say that, but I do think that sometimes teachers perceive inclusion classrooms versus self contained classrooms as more work because they have to gear their their lessons towards students of all different learning abilities, even though I think that's the job of the teacher. So I'm very much against self contained classrooms, because I feel that being included, was exactly what helped me to thrive. But I also think that's not to say that, you know, just because Kyle was basically in a self contained school, if you will, that he's not thriving right now. So it's an interesting conversation to have, but I'm, I'm firmly at the mindset that we need to have inclusive classrooms. And I'm, I pretty much know what Kyle's gonna say, but I want to hear what
you know, I went to the exact kind of school that you described him, and I really, I did not like it. In retrospect, you know, I've been going to that school since I was four years old. So when I was four years old, I needed the services they offer, and I needed the PT, I needed the OT and quite frankly, I was already a smart kid out of nursery school. So education took a backseat to my physical requirements. And my parents at the time thought that best but not really, because I actually also went to a nursery school for people with disabilities. And although I grew up in an environment where everyone was inclusive by nature, and although I had an IEP with a ton of accommodations I did not need as I got older, what ended up happening was that it stunted my social growth, you know? And that's something that it's it's very unfortunate for me to say and I suppose if it turned out okay, but when I got older, I realized just how much of the quote unquote real world I was missing out on and when I left to go to college, I stepped out of my bubble even though I was a commuter in college. It was just the floor fell out from under me and I was immediately put on academic probation because I was used to an environment where, quite frankly, the work a lot of it got done for you. And I had to like go through this whole process to get off of it. So I liked him. I liked him in theory and obviously, if your disability is if you have medical needs in you know that conflict with your ability to receive an edge occasion in some form or another, then you know, they're great. But if you're like me or myself, where you know, your needs are nearly purely physical, then I'm not really a big fan of them. And I wish I had gone to a mainstream school because I mean, my school was so small that we couldn't get things done. Other schools had like IPMI, like AP classes. And there were plenty of students in my school that could benefit from them, but our school just had too small of a student body, you know, for things like that. And so, right out of the gate, we were sort of at a disadvantage.
Hey, Kyle, I have a counterpoint for you. Of course I do. So you said that, you know, people whose needs medically prevent them from receiving a certain type of education, or I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm just trying to think of what you said. But I'm thinking isn't the goal of inclusion to ensure that even if someone has medical needs, that they can still be incorporated into a mainstream classroom as much as possible? So argue that it should be the role of a school to maybe you've got a counterpoint, maybe that's what you meant? And you just send it in a way that?
No, no, that is what I think but but, but my school, I think, was at the risk of saying it's a little too inclusive. I think that if they zeroed in on students that had, you know, a certain set of needs, that they're that those students could have excelled. But because that school had so many students with so many different disabilities at so many ability levels, you sort of had to play by I don't want to call it the lowest common denominator, denominator, but it was sort of like that, where you had to, like, average out everyone's ability. And, you know, education needs and go from there. I think that if they they took a more narrow approach, not that I'm saying that, like, school should be less inclusive, of course not. But I think a more specialized education, in terms of balancing education with medical needs in that school in particular, would have benefited the students who needed it most. Because I'm not going to say that I received a subpar education from there, I didn't. And in fact, I received some education that quite frankly, I think people in mainstream schools aren't taught, like, for example, we're not taught how to write a resume and do a job interview, which I think is very practical. But at the same time, we missed out on like I said, things like AP classes or honors classes, and, you know, things like that. So it was sort of a give and take, and I don't think there was a great answer for it. But personally, I wish I had gone to a mainstream school, in retrospect.
Interesting. So let me let me kind of talk about special education, kind of as it is now, because there's, there's a, there's this continuum of services, right a continuum of support that special education is supposed to provide for all students in the way that Ida is set up. In this continuum of support. The idea is, and how it's supposed to work is if you have students that that can access their education, in what we call the least restrictive environment, right? You have students that are able to access their education in a general education classroom with minimal supports, and some with small group supports. So you have you have your your students in general education with accommodations. And then you have students who receive specialized instruction, which means that they're still working on general education standards. They're just, it's being presented in a different way. Or maybe using a separate curriculum, but still hitting the same standard. So you're kind of that's the specialized instruction, right? In maybe a smaller group, but maybe they only receive that for math or language arts. And then you will also have co teaching support, so you have an extra teacher in that classroom, that is there to help with that specialized instruction, specialized strategies on how to have that student be included. And then you go further into the restrictive environment, you know, continuum, where you have small group classes, you know, for students with a particular you know, different districts do a different way. So you have some districts have autism only classrooms or For students that have a label of an intellectual disability, and sometimes they even split up the classrooms and the severity of the intellectual disability, and then you have, you know, other types of classrooms that I, you know that, that I don't even know about soy, and then the more restrictive and more restrictive and more restrictive. So here's my question. Is that if Ida is really do it, like if it really, if it's, if we're providing services, the way that the law was in, you know, written? It, do you think that potentially is a good model? And if it's not, then what are your thoughts on? On maybe how it should be? Does that make sense?
Yeah, I think so. And it's something that I struggle with a lot, because I think that sometimes inclusion, as a concept, if it's not done well can actually risk education quality for everyone. Because it's, you know, maybe focusing, in two months, I'm teaching in a way to accommodate some people and not other people. And so, I think inclusion in and of itself can be really, really complex. And so I, in some cases, understand the need to have more, and I hate the word isolated, but isolated, learning environments for people with specific types of disabilities to ensure that they thrive. But I also think that there needs to be some kind of happy medium, where disabled people are not cut off from mainstream interaction, and, you know, have that ability to interact with peers of all different abilities. And so, you know, I find it, I don't think that as it stands, that the law if it's truly being followed in all school districts, as it should be to the letter is doing the best he could to ensure that everyone has what is it free, appropriate public education? Is that it?
You got it?
Yeah, I took a couple of courses on this. A while back, so this is jogging my memory, certainly on a lot. You know, I think a free appropriate public education looks a little bit different for everyone, depending on their needs. And that's not just disability related, that, you know, person related, everyone is unique. And so I don't think that right now, the law as it stands and the way that people are following it is the best option. But, you know, I think it's, it's better than nothing. But I think that we need to be working on restructuring how we think about how best to include everyone while also meeting everyone's needs. I don't know if I just talked myself into circles, or if I made any sense, but
what about your thoughts? Kyle?
I'm actually going to keep out a little bit. There's not a single word of what Emily said that I would disagree with in that. One. Yeah, it's definitely tough, though. The balance between you know, where do you draw the line between somebody's needs and regarding in in regards to disability and needs in regards to their education? I think, you know, if, like Moe said, if the world was falling to the, to the letter AI, which, you know, I doubt it is in many cases. I still don't know if it's an ideal scenario. But quite frankly, I don't know enough about special education to develop my own sort of model for it. So I guess we have to work with what we have now. Right, and learn how to implement it better at least. Yeah,
yeah. Something I thought that was really interesting. This happened a couple of weeks ago. And I'm totally dating the podcast because I'm referencing something that happened in the news, so I apologize. But, but I think Betsy DeVos, who's the education secretary said something about that students or families shouldn't have to su school districts to get the education for their child with the disability that that they need. And so I thought that was an interesting soundbite because I, in principle agree with that. Right?
Yeah, they probably be the only thing I've ever heard that woman say that I would agree with. Yeah,
yes. But because I know that her interpretation of school choice and options, don't necessarily, you know, we're not on the same page there. I did, I do think it's an interesting point, because because that is what ends up happening is that families, because of because they are fighting for their child, and what they, they feel like their needs are for their education, end up having to sue districts in order to get their child included, or get their child a, you know, interpreter, an ASL interpreter for their classroom or, you know, special audio visual devices for the classroom or technology for the classroom, that they feel like, you know, that is, that is FAPE for their kid. And so, it, you know, this is something I constantly think about, because not only is it my job, that because I work, you know, for a school district, and I and it's constantly on my mind, but because I've been, you know, I've been I put myself into this world where I am in this constant dichotomy of, well, what is inclusion? What does inclusive education mean, in the system that we have? You know, because I don't have a magic wand, I can't, you know, waive all self contained classrooms away. But yet, when I do talk to some advocates, they're like, how can you be okay with self contained classrooms, and being a teacher as as a teacher that taught in a self contained classroom for many years, I do see the benefit for some students. And I think that having this conversation is is really important. Because when, when I'm when I was kind of struggling with this idea of inclusive education, and what you know, what should education look like for all students and for students with disabilities? I kind of felt alone, because I had these kind of conflicting thoughts, but I didn't hear anybody on the advocacy side, echoing my thoughts, it was all self contained. Classrooms are are bad, they're evil, you know, you should really reconsider your job, Tim, stuff like that?
Well, it's so tough, because I actually just published recently, I guess, again, here we go dating the podcast. But one of the jobs I have is as editor in chief of a blog for an organization called Rooted in Rights. And we just published a piece by a great autistic writer, exploring why homeschooling for the disability community should be an option, but it should not have to be the only option. And so we were. So as we were going back and forth on the the piece, the theme that emerged was that homeschooling is a great option. But it shouldn't be a last resort because your public school would not accommodate a student with a disability properly. And so I think that there are so many different and valuable forms of education. But often, the law becomes a fallback and not something that's actually followed. And so when we do have to sue for our basic right to an education, it ends up becoming exhausting to fight for inclusion, especially when the term inclusion is used loosely, and it's not even really being done well. And so then, that's when you do start to see the merits of a self contained classroom or an environment specifically for people with disabilities, that knows how to work with people with disabilities and, you know, meet their needs. So is it is a, an issue that I Understand the conflict around because when the options you're presented with are not always very good options, you know, then what what are you supposed to do? You know, are you just supposed to say, well, even this effort and inclusion is terrible, at least they're there, including me. So I should be grateful and deal with it. I mean, I don't think so.
Yeah, I, I agree. I agree. And, and so. So, I guess how I how I wrap my brain around this. And you tell me, because I guess I definitely want to hear in both of your feedback on this is, is really striving for inclusion in your own context. So whatever inclusion means for you, or your family, in your context, whether that is, like, you know, Kyle's experience in a school for only, you know, special education students, or in a mainstream or an inclusive classroom. You know, what about? What about my context? Can I make inclusive for for myself and my family? And I don't know. That's, that's just kind of my, my own thinking on that. Because I've talked to too many people who are like, Well, I would not choose inclusion, for my for my child, or I would not choose inclusion for myself, like, I want to be in a I want to be in an environment where there's people like me, you know. So, anyways, I think I think that that's a really important conversation to have. I'm really glad that you were able to, to weigh in on that.
Just as a corollary, I don't think there's anything wrong with an environment full of quote, people like me. I just think that in my particular case, there were a lot of times where one's medical needs superseded the rest of our educational needs. I mean, because I didn't need them. As much as whichever student in question I felt, I don't want to say shortchanged, but pretty much shortchanged. But I don't think that that's their fault, that that's the fault of the way that the classes are structured. I think that that's just the way the particular school handled it. I do absolutely see the merits of an inclusive classroom versus have a class versus a classroom full of students like me. I think that it's so tough, because there are pros and cons of each. And I. It's, it's just so hard to wrap your head around it. Because I don't really know if there's a right answer, but I don't think that it's as easy as, you know, self contained classroom, bad inclusion. Good. I there's there's a huge gray area that I think that taking and you know, I think either absolute is is sort of like ignoring the larger issue. Yeah,
yeah, for sure. You're
also making me think about how I almost had the, the opposite of your experience to in that I was around a bunch of people without disabilities for the school year. And then at the same time that you, Kyle, were exiting that bubble for the summer, I was entering that bubble, because I went to for for many, many years, a summer camp, specifically for kids with disabilities. And that, to me, on the one hand, is like the least inclusion you can possibly get if you're talking about it from a conceptual standpoint, because it's like, let's just send all the disabled kids off to this camp. But on the other side, it was some of the most inclusion I ever felt, because for those few weeks, every summer, there was no explaining myself, there was no feeling like I needed to keep up with non disabled children who maybe didn't quite get the concept of inclusion. So in a way that was inclusion in a different context. For me, that was my opportunity to just sort of have things geared towards me entirely 110% all the time. And I know Kyle went to that camp too, and I'm not sure if he likes me quite as much as I did, but that's I think
Well, I think though, if I, if I had gone to a mainstream school like you, and my summer was my only exposure to disability, I would have liked it a lot more. The reasons I didn't like it were purely personal and personality based. But the only the only way that I can relate it to this specific conversation is I spent nine months with people with disabilities. And not that I wasn't one myself, but I just sort of wanted to get away from the environment of, of so many, so many, you know, this was already my life. And so when I went to that camp, and not only did I still have to be around people with disabilities, and I couldn't be like, by myself, making the sound like I don't want to be around them. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it was not only that, but also it was just the same people I was just in school with. And it was like, Oh, my God, can I have my summer? Without any of you? You know? So that's where it was a bit more personal. But
rue? Yeah, like, very limited places for all of us to go. So the same people who went to Kyle's school went to the camp with me. So for me, this was like a new and strange experience every summer. For Kyle, it was just like, Oh, you mean, you're all following me to the same place?
The same? Yeah, that's really what it was, it was not me at all.
I think that's fair, for sure. Point to a larger issue of a lack of inclusive spaces at all the fact that, you know, we always say don't think, monetize us by saying that every person with a disability knows each other. But the reality really do. We totally do. There are not enough spaces for us, you know, in any form of inclusive environment that gives us the space to, to thrive and be ourselves and, you know, in whatever capacity that may be, whether it's educational or recreational, it seems like we're still being lumped together and society hasn't quite figured out what to do with us. And sometimes, it can be a good thing. Like, for me, summer camp was a good thing, seeing other people like me, you know, but on the other hand, after a while, I even got sick of it. And that was just for a few weeks at a time when I was like, But why can't a regular summer camp just include me in their activities? Why do I need to go to a special summer camp? So I think I've seen the pros and cons fluctuate throughout my life, basically, is what it comes down to. So I don't think I can ever have a definitive answer on inclusion because it means different things to me at different times.
Yeah. Yeah. That's, I like that perspective. Well, we're, we are just about at a time, so I wanted to, where is it? I want to talk about kind of where people can find the assess the accessible stall. And kind of maybe, if you have an idea of what is next I saw you had a big announcement on Facebook. That was exciting. I want to share that. But yeah, so what's next for the the accessible stall?
Oh, my God, spoiler alert. We don't quite know yet. Because our fantastic news was that we just were the recipients for the July. Disabilities grant from the awesome foundation. This was something that we had applied for once before, and we didn't get but that didn't deter us. And we applied again in this month. We got it. And we just got the news. I think, what two days ago, Emily? And yeah, yes, so the next big thing for for anyone who listens to us, it will just be awesome episodes. But for us, we're gonna make a game plan and see what's next just like, just like everyone else, I suppose.
And we just opened a joint bank account. That's true. Yeah,
we were basically married now. You can find this on on Facebook at the accessible store and on Twitter at accessible stalls. And I think most importantly, be accessible. style.com Yeah. And we're available on we're available on all major podcasting platforms. Just search the accessible stall and we're the one that looks like a bathroom sign you can't miss us.
Well, I just want to thank both of you for being on here having an awesome conversation. Qian, I'm gonna look forward to listening to more accessible stole. And I hope to catch up with both of you soon.
Yeah, thank you for having us. This is a lot of fun. It's really covered. Yeah.
That's why it deserves its own episode.
That's, that's why we're here. Oh, you just go ahead and run with it. It's fine with me. That is our show. We would like to thank Emily and Kyle from the accessible stall for joining us. Make sure you check out their website, the accessible stall.com And you can find them on Facebook and Twitter. Follow thing conclusive on the web at thing conclusive.us as well as Twitter, Facebook, Google Plus, and now Instagram. Today's show was produced by myself, talking into USB headphones, a zoom h1, handy recorder, MacBook Pro GarageBand and a Skype account. You can also subscribe to the inclusive podcast via the iTunes Music Store, Google Play Stitcher, or podomatic.com, the largest community of independent podcasters on the planet from Marietta, Georgia. Please join us again on the think music podcast. Thanks for your time and attention.
