Episode 19: UMBC Gerontology w/ Dr. John Schumacher, Dr. Rob Millar, Dr. Sarah Holmes, Min-Hyung Park, Jenn Haddock, & Rachel McPherson

6:19PM May 23, 2022

Speakers:

Dr. Ian Anson

Dr. John Schumacher

Min-Hyung Park

Rachel McPherson

Jenn Haddock

Dr. Sarah Holmes

Dr. Rob Millar

Keywords:

gerontology

umbc

program

research

students

faculty

opportunity

question

aging

people

discipline

older adults

schumacher

faculty members

dissertation

specifically

hear

min

contribute

projects

Hello and welcome to Retrieving the Social Sciences, a production of the Center for Social Science Scholarship. I'm your host, Ian Anson, Associate Professor of Political Science here at UMBC. On today's show, as always, we'll be hearing from UMBC faculty, students, visiting speakers, and community partners about the social science research they've been performing in recent times. Qualitative, quantitative, applied, empirical, normative. On Retrieving the Social Sciences, we bring the best of UMBC's social science community to you.

On most episodes of Retrieving the Social Sciences, we might hear from one or maybe two guests about some of their awesome social science research. But today, in the spirit of bringing more voices into the conversation, I'm excited to bring you not one, not two, but three different interview segments featuring six great social scientists. Why so much content in this very special episode you might ask? Well, today we're bringing you a comprehensive overview of the UMBC Doctoral Program in Gerontology, a program which is jointly offered with the University of Maryland Baltimore. The program offers an interdisciplinary and integrative perspective on the process of human aging and the experiences of growing old. To unpack what that means, today I have the pleasure of first speaking with Dr. John Schumacher, Associate Professor at UMBC and a co director of the Doctoral Program in Gerontology. In our interview, Dr. Schumacher explains what gerontology is, what UMBC's program is all about, and some of the exciting things happening on campus. Next, I speak with three current PhD students in the gerontology program, Min-Hyung Park, Rachel McPherson, and Jenn Haddock, about their exciting research. And finally, I talk about gerontology with two recent graduates from the program. Dr. Sara Holmes is an Assistant Professor of Organizational Systems and Adult Health at the University of Maryland School of Nursing. And Dr. Roberto Millar is a Policy Analyst Advanced at the Hilltop Institute, where he provides policy and analytical support for projects related to Medicare and Medicaid beneficiaries. As you can already tell, we have lots to talk about in this episode. So let's jump right in with my recent conversation with Dr. John Schumacher of UMBC Gerontology.

I'm really pleased to be able to sit down right now with Dr. John Schumacher of UMBC's Gerontology program. And Dr. Schumacher, I wanted to first of all ask you, in the broadest sense, what is gerontology? I'm sure that we have a few listeners out there who aren't really familiar with this field, given that it's not really the quintessential social science discipline that we might think of when we're thinking of a field like sociology, or political science, or anthropology and the like. What is gerontology?

Yeah, absolutely. So, so gerontology is really the study of people in later life, right. So it focuses on using an interdisciplinary approach that includes sociology, psychology, biology, public policy, social work. I mean, we're really looking at kind of life and people. So in the program here is that interdisciplinary, social science doctoral degree. So that's what this gerontology program is. And it's really kind of focusing on again, older adults in all facets of life. It's a joint program with the University of Maryland, Baltimore, and the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. So that's something unique about it. And gerontology really kind of focuses on, at least our version, focuses on things like the life course that is, how do people's experiences earlier in life impact later in life? We look at things like intergenerational relations. So how do people from different generations interact? That could be grandparents and grandchildren. And we also really focus on interdisciplinarity, right. So these issues of aging and older adulthood, aren't really, can't really be solved by one discipline. So we really try to integrate work from multiple fields to really address these issues in society.

Wow, that's really fascinating to be able to talk a bit about the ways in which gerontology spans these various disciplines, both within the social sciences and beyond the social sciences. That's, I think, an aspect of this program that, you know, I wasn't really clear on before we started talking about it. You know, we bring in insights from the li, the life sciences, for example. And I find that to be a very fascinating aspect of the gerontology program, both here and gerontology as a discipline. On that note, I really wanted to ask you to tell us a little bit more about this program at UMBC in detail. What are some of the strengths of the program, perhaps, and tell us a little bit about sort of where this program started and where it's going in the future.

Sure, sure. Let me, let me just tell you a little bit of the history of the program. It goes back to 2001. So we're one of the oldest and most experienced gerontology programs in the nation. We have over 45 graduates who work in range of settings from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services to AARP, some work in traditional university settings. So that's a little of our history. We have incoming classes of between three and five students, we have about 20 students who are in the program at any one time. So it's a fairly high-touch program. You know, what's unique and strong about our program is that it is a joint program between two universities. So this really kind of brings the faculty and resources of two universities together to, you know, address this issue of, of gerontology and older adults, right. So students take classes on both campuses, they have access to faculty on both campuses, and over 50 faculty are affiliated faculty members across the two campuses. And they all contribute to this educational mission. So you're asking about the kind of strengths of the program. And I'd say, you know, again, we're strong and interdisciplinary training. And so again, you can't really do gerontology without being collaborative, working together. I mean, again, I invite listeners to kind of think about older adults in their lives. So they may be, I mean, they are older, they're, they're people in society, right? They are out there. They're banking, shopping, they're working out, they have mobility needs, they have transportation needs. And some of those needs are a bit different, but we really need to, again, work as an interdisciplinary way to kind of focus on the variety of issues. And I know, we've talked to some of our students who kind of drill down into some of those issues. But again, we're unique, in that we're highly interdisciplinary and collaborative, as a program.

Wow, over 50 faculty affiliates! That's a really incredible testament to the breadth of this program. It's also really cool that we've got this partnership that you mentioned between UMB and UMBC. That really gives us the ability to be more conversant in more fields and to sort of really pinpoint the ways in which these disciplines can collaborate on the subject of gerontology. So Dr. Schumacher, tell us a little bit more about what's going on right now, in the UMBC Gerontology program. Are there any big projects that you are working on, big initiatives?

Yeah, absolutely, there's a there's kind of three exciting things that are going on right now I can talk about. So one is in fall 2022, we've added a fully online master's program, so that it's a Master of Science in Gerontology for people who would be, who would benefit from master's level training as a career transition, or they want to advance their career. And these credits are, would also count toward a PhD if a student wants to go for a PhD, but it's currently designed as a fully online, synchronous master's program. So that's number one. Number two, we're looking at international opportunities for students. Aging is a global phenomenon. There's actually a term called "super aging societies" that the United Nations has designated and that refers to societies that have over 20% of their population over the age of 65. So currently, we're not there, but we'll be there in 2030. But places like Japan and Germany have already been there, they're already super aging, they're already over 20%. So that we're trying to build that international opportunity, we just signed an agreement with the University of Costa Rica. So we'll be sending two students and faculty a year to Costa Rica, to spend six months, to Costa Rica and spend six months to a year. And it's an exchange program. So we'll also be hosting their students and faculty in Baltimore, um, to really kind of get some exchange about these international issues about aging. So we're excited about that Costa Rica opportunity. Third program I want to highlight is our Future Educators Academy. That's down at the University of Maryland, Baltimore. This is an opportunity for graduate teaching assistants to be paired with a faculty member, and to really learn about course design and delivery. So it's a great opportunity for students who may want to teach their own classes. And it's a systematic kind of training opportunity. So that's a neat opportunity for students. They get a full assistantship along with that. So that, again, we're ranging from research to teaching in this area of gerontology.

Wow, I'm really grateful to be able to hear about all these really exciting initiatives that are happening in the program. Especially I might add, given this insight that we're entering into this super aging society that you mentioned. I mean, that's a really sort of important idea that, you know, those those listeners who may not know much about gerontology, I mean, if you haven't thought about it yet, I mean, this is something we need to think about very soon in the future of America. And speaking of the future, I wanted to ask a little bit about your view of the future of the gerontology program at UMBC. What's next for this program?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And even when you talk about the future, I mean, I encourage, again, listeners to kind of look in the news, right. So you're gonna see issues that have to do with aging, right. So whether it's social security, Medicare, issues about dementia, I mean, I think dementia is a nice example to think about that there's so many facets that as a society we need to grapple with. So you talked about somebody who may have early dementia. There's the diagnostic procedures, like how do we screen? How do we test? How do we train our providers to work with people with dementia? We need to think about caregiving issues. You need to think about transportation issues, financial issues. So again, gerontologists can kind of take different angles, and also bring people together to kind of study these issues on that societal level. You know, public policy is a big issue with that. So how do we what type of policy that relates to Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security, those policy decisions. You know, gerontology just really touches all of these different domains. So, you know, as we look toward the future, as are, and we're accelerating rapidly, in, in our society. We were at about one out of every 10 people were older about 20, 20 years ago. By 2030, about two out of every 10 people, or almost 25, 20% of people will be over the age of 65. So again, we've seen this rapid transition, and as a society we need to respond. Gerontology is hopefully contributing to that response in a, in a innovative way.

Dr. John Schumacher, thank you again, so much for taking the time to talk to us today. Before I let you go, I have just one more question that I often ask of anybody who has any contact with students, and that is, do you have any advice for those students who are hoping to go pro in the social sciences in the near future?

Yeah, absolutely. Great question. My response is you follow your curiosity? What interests you? You don't have to have it all figured out, but you need to have a desire and a commitment to learn more deeply. So as you get into a doctoral program, or apply to a doctoral program, well, I really encourage people to talk to the faculty members, explore their interests. All of our faculty members are accessible to them. So again, reach out look for that fit. Because a Ph D program is going to help you to to turn your curious nature into a researchable question. And that is, you know, how might we collect data that's gonna contribute to generalizable knowledge or contribute to a solution? So again, follow your curiosity, reach out and talk to faculty members, and look for that synergy for whatever program you're going to and, and you'll be successful. So again, take that curiosity and run with it.

Excellent words of advice, and something that we can all take to heart a little bit. Thank you again, so much for your time.

Great, great to be here, and thanks for your work, great program.

You know, I really enjoyed getting to hear about the UMBC Gerontology program from Dr. Schumacher. But to better understand exactly what kinds of research are being conducted in the program, it's even better to hear from some of the program's advanced PhD students. Let's get right into my recent conversation with Min-Hyung Park, Rachel McPherson, and Jenn Haddock.

All right, so I want to get started here talking a little bit about sort of the topics of research that you have been pursuing in your time in the Ph. D. program at UMBC. So I want to start maybe let's start with Min, just for the sake of, of choosing somebody to go first. Tell us a little bit about your ongoing research projects. And what's the topic that you're focusing on in the program?

Hi I'm Min-Hyung Park. I'm currently, my central focus area in my research is immigrant families and their caregivers in the United States.

Immigrant families in the United States. Well, that's a fantastic topic, and certainly a very, very topical one, indeed. How about you, Rachel, tell us a little bit about your ongoing research project.

All right. I'm Rachel McPherson, and I'm particularly looking at quality of staff resident care interactions among nursing home residents with dementia.

Well, we really can already see that there is just an incredible diversity in the kinds of topics that are being studied in this program. How about you, Jen, tell us a little bit about your research as well.

Yeah, so I'm currently looking at a women's health issue. It's specifically looking at racial disparities in osteoporosis screening and treatment, and how neighborhood environment and implicit racial bias affect those things.

Wow. All right, listeners, you heard it here first. I mean, these are three incredibly salient research topics, obviously important things for us to know about as a society and as social scientists. This is really cool research that you all are doing. And, you know, I wanted to follow up this sort of introductory question with some more detail about your projects. And specifically, I want to know a bit about the backstory of your project. So I want to know about kind of how you came to study these topics, and what kind of the story was there that led you to do this really intensive, you know, PhD-level research on the topics that you chose. So Jenn, why don't you start us off with that question.

Yeah, so kind of a roundabout way that I got to this topic area is, I had some work during undergrad with UnidosUS. They're a central advocacy group for Hispanic and Latinos living in the United States. And they also look a lot at, like structural racism, and how that creates barriers in different areas of life, such as health, access to jobs and other things. And when thinking about the aging process, and what affects longevity, there's not enough research in health equity for certain diseases, like osteoporosis. So I felt like I wanted to fill that gap.

A gap indeed, and something that I'm so grateful that you have felt called to study. Rachel, how about you?

For me, um, prior to being in grad school, I worked in a memory care unit of an assisted living facility. So this is kind of a unit that's specifically for older adults with dementia or cognitive impairment. And when I was there, I really got to observe a lot of the care provision for the older adult residents, and look at a lot of the dynamics between the staff and the residents. So that's really what kick-started my research interest in looking at the quality of the staff-resident care interactions. This is really like an indicator of quality of care, and it contributes to quality of life. So it's an important thing to look at. So that's kind of the backstory for me.

Yeah, that's so cool to consider that you're able to take this, you know, personal backstory, and some things that have really motivated you to try to, you know, get to the bottom of some, some big questions in the discipline. And you got to bring those two together to create some really interesting dissertation projects. Min, how about you.

I had a master's degree in family studies. I studied in South Korea, and then I emigrated. Naturally, I got into immigration here. And it is because I studied family gerontology in my master's program. So I just feel like that I need to fill the gap, the intersectional challenges among immigrant families here, regarding older adults. That's why I, why I choose my research.

Wow, you can really see how these personal ties and backstories are contributing to all three of your really interesting research projects. I want to know a little bit more also about UMBC Gerontology and how this program specifically was of interest to you as somebody trying to do PhD research in the discipline.

I think, you know, nationwide Gerontology PhD program, it's really, it's really rare. And the unique thing in this program between UMBC and UMB is that doing the program. So, there are many faculty members from various fields in medicine, nursing, sociology, psychology. So, the unique point is that students in gerontology program, this UMB and UMBC, we can meet faculty members we want in various fields. And uniquely, this program has three tracts. Obviously, a technology and socio cultural neutral track. Which other gerontology PhD program doesn't have that much. Is a really unique point.

I would echo what Min is saying. And I would also just add that just as Min is saying, there is a wide range of faculty with diverse backgrounds and research interest. And I would say that the majority of students in our program don't come necessarily from gerontology backgrounds, like Jenn and I both have a bachelor's in psychology. So because of this wide range of faculty in these different areas, we're able to find how our background fits with current gerontology research. So I think that is one of the pros of the program.

What you both said got me thinking about how a lot of times in science, we're siloed into our individual fields. And that's one great thing about the gerontology program and that structure that Min and Rachel mentioned, since we do have the ability to interact with faculty from so many different backgrounds, not only do we have the ability to pursue something that's very unique to our own interest in research, but we also, as gerontologists, are kind of this go-between person, whether it's a go-between between biomedical research and social science research. Those are sometimes the things that are needed when we're thinking about how to make improvements in health and overall well being. Because one thing that works for one person doesn't work in all areas, or it's not understandable by the wider public. And so I think that's one great thing about this program is that it prepares you to talk to many different stakeholders.

Wow, it is so cool to know from these great insights, just that this program seems to really resonate, I think with the whole point of this podcast, right. The Retrieving the Social Sciences podcast is all about kind of breaking down the silos, the kind of barriers that exist between the social science disciplines, at least, you know, in this program, or, you know, across the country. And it's really rewarding to think about how gerontology as a discipline, it's kind of has that that mission sort of built into it, right. Because just study aging populations you kind of need to incorporate these insights. And it's so cool to think that the UMBC program is especially sort of adept at accomplishing this task. So I also want to talk a little bit about the current status of your research projects. Rachel, why don't you start us off and tell us a little bit about where you're at in the project, and what's what's next for the for the study.

Right, so I'm looking at the quality of staff-patient care interactions, as I talked about. To date, I've looked at a few different things with this, I published an article about gender differences in the quality of care interactions. And I've also done a few presentations and projects on the relationship between quality of care interactions and resistance to care, resident factors like race, and gender, and even facility factors as well, such as facility racial composition. So I'm finishing my dissertation on this topic, which is specifically looking at the intersection of race and gender differences in care interactions. And then also doing an SEM a structural equation modeling, to look at what resident facility factors are related to the quality of care interactions.

Wow, those are some really cool research methods. And I'm really excited to think that you're applying them so effectively to answer your research question. And, you know, I wish you the best as you continue to get closer to having this this finished product for publication. Min, how about you? How are things going?

Currently, mainly, I have two projects. Using the Health and Retirement Study which is nationally representative of big data, I looked at the relationship between national origin discrimination, and just psychological well being impact. And whether it's moderated by neighborhood environment, neighborhood causes in neighborhood disorder. So the results was quite interesting. Except for African Americans, if older adults experienced national origin discrimination, their level of life satisfaction was decreased it, but it's not., there's not that big impact on African Americans. I assume that it's because, unfortunately, black Americans, they are kind of accustomed to racial discrimination. So yeah, with this research, I'm going to have a journal article authored. And for my dissertation, also using HRS data, I will look at the relationship between caregiving for older adults and it's psychological impact on immigrant families.

Well, Min, best of luck to you as you continue to work on this project, and, you know, get the dissertation ready. And of course, also as you submit this to an academic journal. I'm well and familiar with just how, you know, stressful it can be to get that research out there into a journal for the very first time. So best wishes as you continue to work on it. Jen, how about you tell us a little bit about your project.

Yeah, so this upcoming summer, I'll be piloting a survey measure that I developed as my final aim of my dissertation. It's looking at the differences in how providers are providing treatment and looking at implicit racial bias using a assumption method. This kind of the survey measure can help fill what's called like a practical knowledge gap in research. I don't know if you're familiar with the different types of knowledge gaps in research, but this one is specifically related to how professional behaviors or practices can deviate sometimes from what the current research is, or what clinician guidelines say. And those things aren't very frequently covered by a classical intervention study. And so by looking at this with a survey, hopefully we can figure out what the gaps are that are maybe contributing to disparities in care, in just one area.

Three incredibly interesting projects, all well on their way to becoming extremely successful contributions to the discipline. Thanks to all three of you for participating in this little roundtable. We're so excited to hear so much about the great research you're doing and really sincerely, I wish you all the best in the future, as you as you work towards completing the PhD.

After they graduate from UMBC's Gerontology program, it seems like all three of our panelists are headed for some really cool careers in the field. To that end, let's hear from a couple of recent graduates as they showcase how UMBC Gerontology helped them get to where they are today.

All right. I'm delighted to have today Rob Millar and Sarah Holmes to talk a little bit about their experience in the UMBC Gerontology program, and a little bit about some of the things that they're working on right now. So first of all, I want to thank both of you for being here, and my first question to you, maybe we can start with Sarah, is to think a little bit about how UMBC Gerontology prepared you for the kinds of work that you're doing today.

Thank you so much for having me, I'm happy to be here. When I think back about how the Gerontology program prepared me for the work I'm doing today. What stands out to me most is really the people. I feel very fortunate that I was introduced to my current mentors, who I continue to collaborate with today. And because of them, my time in the Gerontology program was, provided a kind of supportive community that I lean on today in my current work. And so now as a professor, I try to cultivate an environment with my students and my colleagues that mimics many of the qualities and experiences that I had as a graduate student. And it's really centered around mentorship. And that's what was modeled for me in the Gerontology program.

Mentorship really can make all the difference, can't it, especially in the rigors of a Ph. D program, which can, as we know, be sometimes pretty difficult to handle. So I'm really grateful for that insight. And I wanted to ask Rob, also a little bit about this. So sort of what's what's the deal here with UMBC Gerontology in its ability to prepare you for the work that you're doing.

Yeah, absolutely, and thanks for having me in. So Gerontology doctoral program, I absolutely agree with Sarah, I think the mentorship and the relationships that that I was able to develop while in the program absolutely prepared me for where I am now. I too work for the University System of Marylan, so I've stayed in house. I continue to work with faculty now in a different, entirely different capacity, working at an Institute, that's part of the university. In addition to that I really do like, and this will apply to gerontology broadly, how we have the opportunity to look at aging, to look at gerontology from a multidisciplinary perspective. As a policy analyst, now I have the opportunity or the privilege to work with stakeholders across the gamut. So with politicians that are actually making the laws at the state level, to practitioners, to researchers from other institutions. And so I think the Gerontology program absolutely prepared me for this kind of, this kind of environment where I'm able to be the aging expert, per se, and be able to translate from different disciplines and keep those important conversations going.

Fantastic insights. And, you know, I think that's one theme that's really emerged in my conversations with gerontology graduate students and faculty in this program is this wide range, right, of the the sorts of types of things that one is able to accomplish in this very interdisciplinary program. And I think we're seeing that also kind of in comparing the roles and the the sort of current approaches that you're taking in your, your various sort of employment opportunities here. One is sort of Sarah and the sort of more basic sciences and rather than the sort of the more applied department, right, we can see that there's really a lot that can be done with this program, but I want to get a little bit more into specifics now and think about maybe some of the specific kind of tools or methods or other aspects of your training that proved maybe to be particularly useful in some of the work that you're doing today. So, Rob, if you wouldn't mind continuing your your comments.

Yeah, absolutely. And this actually ties really nicely with my previous observation about the interdisciplinary nature of the program. By by nature, we are trained to look at issues and problems through a mixed-methods approach, where we use both qualitative as well as quantitative methodology to address complex research questions. And I think this absolutely prepared me for the kind of work that I'm doing now where, yes, we're looking at quantitative data in terms of the number of people in different services and different programs, but also looking at the actual people, the actual humans that are behind these programs and, and being able to engage them and in any, any analysis that we're doing in order to inform the types of services that they receive. So the mixed-method approach that, that the program has students use, I think is really valuable, and really just prepared me for what I'm doing now.

Sarah, would you agree that this mixed-methods approach is something that is a hallmark of your own research and in your field?

Absolutely. As a faculty member now and a researcher, I've really relied on my experiences in the program which exposed me to all different types of research, from quantitative, qualitative, interventio research, secondary data. Having these experiences really helped pave the way for my ability to ask the kinds of complex questions that I'd always want to be able to tackle in my career, and it really requires a diverse methodological toolkit.

Yeah, I think that's really something that I've heard over and over again, in my conversations with the gerontologists in this program is just how sort of answering the specific questions that seems to require is just a really, really creative, I think, application of a variety of tools. And I'm really glad to hear that both of you are able to use some of those tools in your own work today. I want to ask another question a little bit about the UMBC program, sort of beyond the mentorship aspect. Are there any things that you would think are sort of unique about this program? I've actually learned in recent conversations that this is actually a fairly rare thing, actually to have a gerontology-specific Ph. D. program. So I guess within the relatively small population of these programs nationwide around the world, what is it about the UMBC program specifically that, you know, attracted you to the program and that you think is remarkable?

Yeah, I think it speaks to one of the points Rob just brought up, which is the interdisciplinary nature of the program. The Gerontology program integrates course content across disciplines and offers opportunities for students to work with interdisciplinary faculty. And in my experience, gerontological research really demands an interdisciplinary approach. And so in my own research, it's been enhanced by collaborations across nursing, social work, public health, pharmacy. And so I have an intentional focus on working across the disciplinary boundaries. And this is really what gerontologists do well. And it was facilitated through the Gerontology program here.

Yes, and I absolutely agree with with Sarah. And in terms of thinking about what makes the UMBC program so just what made it so great for me personally, as someone who is from Maryland, I was familiar with, with the perks of living in this area in general. I think we have the benefit of just being surrounded by all types of opportunities. I mean, we have CMS, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid, just down the street in Baltimore. We have, of course, DC, just a few minutes away, we have NIH, and so we have all these different Institutes that are, you know, nationally-recognized, just, you know, around the corner from the university. And so what the program does is it makes those opportunities really available for students. So we have symposia that allows students to interact with different professionals that are actually in the field working hands-on. And so that's really what what makes this program stand out for me.

I think that's a really great point at just the notion that we are so perfectly situated in this region to have access to a lot of really incredible opportunities. And, to that point, I wanted to ask you one follow up question. I know that this is a question that I asked many of the interviewees that I have on the program and that is to maybe address some of the listeners that we might have here that are hoping to maybe go pro in the social sciences one day as you both have. What's some advice that you might have for some of those students who are looking to eventually take these sort of budding research skills and take them to the next level? Sarah?

Yeah, I would say it's important as a new graduate to be open to any opportunities, try out anything that you're remotely interested in. There's endless number of career possibilities for gerontologists today in our skills in areas of expertise that are of high value for a number of different industries. And so my advice would be to connect with people who work in all different types of jobs in gerontology and outside of gerontology. Whether you think you may be interested in that type of work or not, it's really helpful to gain other people's perspectives about what they like and don't like about their careers, you may be surprised what you find out. And then I would also say, connect with alumni from the program We'ree great resources as new students are making the transition from the student to a professional pro life. And it's important to have a community of people who you can ask questions and really seek advice from.

Wnderful advice. And certainly, we'll be making sure to include your bios in the show notes so that any interested students might be able to give both of you a ring at some point. Rob, do you have any additional thoughts?

Oh, yeah, I absolutely agree with Sarah, I think having this small-knit program has, you know, the advantages of having this program are enormous. I mean, we're able to stay in touch with other, with other graduates of the program, we're able to let each other know career opportunities. So I would really encourage students as they're working their way through the program, to connect with other students, to connect with, with faculty. We mentioned just the broad, just the number of different schools that are part of this interdisciplinary program. So really making sure that you reach out, that you're aware of these opportunities that are out there to to connect and learn about what you can do with your skills and how others can help you move forward with that. And to that point, I also want to highlight I mean, as gerontologists, you mentioned, it's pretty rare. Ironically, it's a, it's a young discipline. So making sure that you're really aware of all the benefits that come with being a gerontologist, all the different skills that you have, that others might not know about. And so making sure that you're able to communicate those well, let others know, hey, as a gerontologist, this is, this is what I do., this is what I know. I'm able to apply these skills and answer these complex questions that maybe other disciplines that are much more focused and do one single methodology, one single approach might not have the skills to do so. Yeah, that's really encourage students as they're going out into the profession to really acknowledge and embrace the skills that they that they've gained, that they can contribute.

Rob Millar, Sara Holmes, thank you so much for agreeing to take the time to talk with us today. I think we learned a lot about the Gerontology program and about the great work that you're doing now that you've graduated.

Dear listeners, I hope that today's episode helped you learn something about UMBC Gerontology. I know I did. And I hope like me that you gain an increased appreciation for the incredible work being done here and around the country to better understand the aging process. Until next time, keep questioning. Retrieving the Social Sciences is a production of the UMBC Center for Social Science Scholarship. Our director is Dr. Christine Mallinson, our Associate Director is Dr. Felipe Filomeno. And our production intern is Jefferson Rivas. Our theme music was composed and recorded by D'Juan Moreland. Find out more about CS3 at socialscience.umbc.edu and make sure to follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, where you can find full video recordings of recent UMBC events. Until next time, keep questioning.