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Michelle Flores Vryn and Adrienne Longnecker v1

Julie Confer55min

Jonathan McCoy

00:01

You need more than just technology to make a lasting change in this world. And that's why neon one offers a nonprofit platform that's designed to grow with you providing software and resources that help nonprofit professionals make their connections that matter. connections with their peers, connections with their supporters, and connections with their mission. Learn how neon one makes it easy to design amazing generosity experiences by visiting neon one.com/vr for good.

Jonathan McCoy

00:31

Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky. And this is the We Are For Good podcast.

Becky Endicott

00:36

Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

Jonathan McCoy

00:45

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact

Becky Endicott

00:53

uprising. So welcome to the good community, where Nonprofit Professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

Jonathan McCoy

01:04

So let's get started. Becky, we're smiling so big today.

Becky Endicott

01:09

My favorite days are when powerful, strong women come into our house, they inspire they challenge and they uplift and today I hope everybody is holding on to your rear ends because we're about to talk retention, leadership development and asking a question of is there a should there be a natural pathway from Chief Development Officer to CEO and we have brought in two powerhouses to talk about this with you and it is my great privilege to introduce Adrienne longenecker CFRE and Michelle Flores Ren CFRE to the podcast. I'm going to break them down individually and I'm gonna start with Adrienne Adrienne serves as the executive director at Colorado River Alliance, where she's driving strategic grows partnership development, she oversees this incredible, talented and dedicated staff team. Thank you, Adrian for putting that into your bio that warms my heart. And she's also inspired creativity, connections and commitment and 1000s of colleagues, donors, peers and community leaders with really incredible organizations like Thinkery Children's Museum, Austin Pets Alive in the Central Texas food bank. And I just have to say this one little nugget about her because I love it so much. But she was a professional modern dancer training and performing from coast to coast. And I think that is so cool. She's a proud mom to son and two dogs. And we're just delighted. She's here and Michelle. Just a delight. And one of these awesome disruptors that's in the field right now, I hope you all are following both of these women on LinkedIn. But Michelle serves as a chief development officer on the one star team, she has spent 15 years in the social change space, and communications and fundraising, whoop, whoop. And she leads all the communications and development team. She also serves on boards for mission capital and the Association of Fundraising Professionals global you might know it as AFP, and she's regularly presenting a marketing strategy and nonprofit innovation. But here's the thing, guys, these two incredible women understand about developing leaders, they want to help you progress in a career that aligns with you. We've been talking about how do you prioritize that self growth, create a plan of intention with your professional development plan and get in the right lane. And today we're gonna dive into it. So thank you, ladies for joining us. Welcome to the podcast.

Michelle Flores Vryn

03:27

Thank you for having us.

Adrienne Longnecker

03:29

Yeah, very excited to be here. Thank you.

Becky Endicott

03:31

Well, before we get started, just very quickly, we want to get to know both of you want to know your stories and how you got to this work. So Michelle, I'm gonna start with you this time and just give us a little background on Michelle. Yeah, so

Michelle Flores Vryn

03:43

I always like to start with things that are not on my LinkedIn profile. Because there's actually a lot on my profile, I bolted out pretty well. But one thing that you may not see on there is really how I made my way to nonprofits. I was originally in a Ph. D program and thought I was going to stay in academia, like become a professor, you know, I really still love the university environment. It's such a warm learning and future growth oriented place, which I really love. But in my PhD program, which was in cultural anthropology, I realized once I had enough Master's credits that some of the most impactful work that I wanted to do, which at the time was in conservation was not really happening in academia. It was happening through Surprise, surprise nonprofits. And it's so fitting for Adrian to be here who also has a conservation background, but I was really, I think, surprised and overwhelmed by all of the amazing impact and day to day change that nonprofits are pushing and once you kind of like, uncover that, like you turn over that stone and you see like, Wow, there's so much stuff happening. It's really exciting and I think I've just really maintain that excitement about our sector. And that's what keeps me here.

Becky Endicott

05:06

Okay, you are in cultural anthropology, I understand immediately why community is so important to you as well. So, love that background. What about you, Adrian?

Adrienne Longnecker

05:16

Well, thanks for asking, because I haven't thought about this in a while. But when I first started working in nonprofits, it was because I was, as you mentioned, Becky, a professional dancer. So I was dancing and spending a lot of time rehearsing and teaching, and then also found my way into representing the organization with which I was dancing at events and helping them write grants. And so I guess that was my very first understanding that there was a profession of fundraising and that there were specific ways in which fundraising happened. And so I thought, well, that's interesting. And then I continued on my path of dance, and then moved into the for profit sector for some time and worked in marketing, and kind of like Michelle's background in marketing and communication. And then I realized that what drew me to dance, and what drew me to my professional work, and marketing was about creating experiences about providing or creating experiences that people would not otherwise have. Das wasn't a really effective way to do that for a lot of people. So I again, it's like, well, how can I have a meaningful impact and help provide experience or change in people's lives. And that's when I got my first official, professional, full time job in a nonprofit. And that was at the Central Texas food bank. It was an incredibly meaningful opportunity, because as a dancer, I had sometimes struggled with food insecurity, had wondered, how am I going to make ends meet? How am I going to get food for myself, but for a lot of reasons of privilege, when I was ready to leave that sector and get a quote, unquote, real job, and have enough money coming in to feed myself, it was easy for me. But I realized that that's not the case for many, many, many people. So having the opportunity to work at the food bank, it really was a personal passion of mine. And then again, kind of like Michelle through that I realized I uncovered that turned over that rock and uncovered that there's this huge sector where there is a lot of meaningful change and exciting, exciting work happening. Oh, I

Becky Endicott

07:28

like you to humans.

Jonathan McCoy

07:32

Still my way I was just like, I'm just like hurting this conversation. Because I don't know if y'all intentionally did this. But I'm like, in the way you just story told you showed us what you value in life. And I feel like as we think about alignment, and we think about going deep into the passion areas, we want to lift, yes, it's dancing on one level. But when you said experience, I'm like, there's like deeper things that you want to like pour your life into that are value level. And I just think coming alive in those is something we're really talking about this year, specifically on the podcast. And so I want to start our conversation, thinking about finding alignment, think about progressing our career in a path aligned with that Northstar. And so I want to kick off by asking you all, tell us about the moment where right right now we're in in the sector, and how listeners can help find alignment in their own professional life and work?

Michelle Flores Vryn

08:19

Absolutely. That is a huge and big question. I'm glad you're asking it. I think it's multifaceted. I'll just grab onto one angle. One thing that's really happening I feel in our sector right now is we're having the spaces to rethink things that we were comfortable with at one point. And now, due to these spaces of rethinking, we're asking deep questions of like, Does this really make sense? Is this really the KPI I want to measure? Am I really leveraging the right points here? And you know, for someone who's been in the sector for about 15 years, I personally can say, I've never seen so many rethinking spaces as we have today.

Becky Endicott

09:07

Same. Yep.

Michelle Flores Vryn

09:08

I do think there's like a flip side of this, though, is it's also producing a lot of discomfort, right? I think that instability, people would prefer stability, obviously. But you know, change doesn't have to be bad if they change when leverage correctly can really lead us to somewhere that's way more productive for everyone. So that's what I really see in the sector. And I just have to kind of give a kudos and shout out here to the community center fundraising movement, which I think is a big part of these rethinking spaces. They've really pushed us to ask deep, tough questions that may not have immediately accessible answers, but that's okay. I think moving into asking the questions is the right space to be in.

Jonathan McCoy

09:57

As we think about our own personal code, As for what we want to do in life, we have to like be willing to like ask those questions and sit with them and know that it's not going to be an immediate answer all the time, either.

Adrienne Longnecker

10:08

Michelle has a perspective that I highly value, which is why I create time in my life to spend one on one with Michelle so that I can test some of my beliefs. Are they truly a sign of the times am I staying current with what's happening, I have this held belief, and I don't know that it's still relevant given this very iterative rethinking time that we're in. And I'll just say how appreciative I am that we have found this time, and we are rethinking and asking questions, and that podcasts like this exist, that acknowledge being in the nonprofit sector is hard work. I think 1520 years ago, when I was interviewing people to work in the nonprofit sector, many of them had a romanticized opinion or perspective of what it might be like that it was all passion work, and that it was going to fill them with joy and happiness every day, and it's still a job. There's still challenges, and it can be really hard. And so I appreciate your podcast for lifting up the fact that it's not always easy, but there are things we can do to stay aligned with our North Star, which I think in general helps with the flow.

Becky Endicott

11:24

I think that's such great tone setting for this conversation. And I will just confess here, you know, I spent 20 years in the sector. And a lot of those years, I felt like I was just kind of coasting, we're doing the same things over and over again. And as a creative type. I know, everyone on this podcast conversation would agree. You know, there, there wasn't a lot of innovation. And what we were saying there was no challenge. And, and I'm here for the challenge, I think the question of how we live and work how we feel. And this work needs to be in complete alignment with our values. And so I want to I want to take this conversation into the practical about, we're talking about how do you get in that right role? How do you value align, and you all pose this brilliant question to us, which we love so much, which is, how do you move from that CTO role into that CEO role? And I think the reason that this was so intriguing to me, because the question that you asked that was really profound is, is there a natural pathway for this? And how are we getting there? Or people leaving the organization to take another CEO role at another organization? Or are you creating an intentional pathway for your people to rise into so Adrienne, I'd love to start with you and, and just say, talk to us and create some space to talk about the lessons you've learned in your careers? What do you feel like served you well, with your professional development that's helped, like, guide these principles of understanding that you have from leader to CEO.

Adrienne Longnecker

12:58

There's well talk about multifaceted, as Michelle mentioned earlier, that so many things have come to my mind as I've been preparing for this conversation. And so I'm going to do my best to hone in on three practical as you mentioned, that key idea so one being that for me personally, at from a professional development standpoint, I pretty quickly realized that I as much as as much energy as I spent investing in my subject matter expertise of fundraising, I wanted to spend as much time developing my leadership and at one point, maybe 20 years ago, 15 years ago, it was talked about as like influence without authority, that Leadership isn't just management. And so I spent a lot of time investing in qualities of leadership, recognizing those in myself and Adrian Sargeant, I attended an AFP related leadership conference in which Adrian Sargeant talked about systems thinking. And that was a huge moment in my life where I realized such an affinity for that concept that it bolstered my confidence. And I for one of the first times was like, Oh, I do have innate skills that would make me a great leader. So that was one thing. And of course, I'll give a shout out for AFP, where Michelle and I have both served at the local level and now at the global level. And I firmly believe, yeah, well, and as fundraisers for me serving at the chapter level and at the global level is as part of what fills my bucket. And that's so important, right, as you mentioned to be aligned to continue following our Northstar I had to find ways to fill my bucket so for me, it was about servant leadership and giving back to my field. And specifically at the chapter level, it provided opportunities for leadership development, really practical leadership opportunities around consensus building. One of the best things I learned about being a leader through my AFP chapter service was its, I learned how to come in and acknowledge the past, while still talking about a better future, a couple of times I stubbed my toe by coming in and be like, Oh, God, we've done it like this for so long. And oh, why have we done that realizing later that the five people that spent three years of their life creating that pass, were now in the room and I had unintentionally offended them. And in a way that, you know, it's a different from being a positive disrupter. Right. So local, the professional association leadership, investing in leadership development and finding someone who really speaks to your innate skills. And then lastly, I'd say it's just hard work, right? It's about resilience and will. And for me, that resilience and will comes from relationships. And so as soon as possible, if you don't already, you know, find your whatever it might be your text string, your regular book club, the place where you can, maybe your podcast, but for me, it's a place where I can share it interact with the people who will really tell me if I'm off base, or if I'm aligned with where I want to be, you know, that internal and external landscape alignment, finding the people who will let you know, you may feel that way on the inside. But on the outside, here's what you're putting out, here's what you're putting forward. So that's the other practicum that I think is so important. It's that relationship with people who can help you align your internal landscape with your external, oh, you're poking

Jonathan McCoy

16:49

the bear of our values over here. I mean, everything you know, it really is everything. And I think we are blessed to be in a position today that there's a lot of ways to have community which are illuminating, too. And so many people have felt so closest to have not been able to, like physically be in the same room. But that hasn't stopped us from able to find our people, which is so encouraging, I think from wherever you're at. So, Michelle, I want to give y'all both space to kind of talk a little bit about your journey, just to give some context of what is that Leadership Progression look like. Because in talking about a lot about alignment this year, there's people in the journey that listen to this podcast that are young professionals, because we hear from them, and they have aspirations to move on. And then there's some people that you know, want to figure out how to progress in their leadership journey, too. So if you want to kind of give context of what it looks like actually functionally moving through, I think that would give good guideposts for the next part of our combo.

Michelle Flores Vryn

17:40

Yeah, absolutely. And I think we've touched on top of that is, you know, being in values alignment with what's most meaningful to you. And a lot of that is being able to tune into your own self and realize, like what lights you up, like, what excites you, and you know, this is a little bit of a movie, or it's a lot a bit of a moving target, because you know, what excites you at 25 may not be the same thing that excites you at 35. And that's okay. That's normal, like a while ago, and Adrian was speaking about systems thinking, I was like, Oh, my gosh, I love system thinking so much. I think that some of it is really being attuned with like, what gives you debts far, and we all have that, like whether you're listening to a podcast, or watching a movie, or even lyrics to a song like, there are like these clues that if you tune into them, you can learn more about yourself. And so my number one recommendation for people is to really think about what are the things that move you in that way. And one good thing about working in development and nonprofits in general, is that you get to do a lot of things, right, like you put your hands on a lot of different areas. And while I think that that can lead to overwork, and a lot of essences, it's also a way to leverage learning experiences where you can quickly realize, do I like doing this thing? Or do I not like doing this thing? For example, in my earlier years, I was tasked with, you know, a lot of like special event coordination and stuff. And for me, personally, I quickly realized, like, that's not something that I really love. But it's so interesting in comparison, because I have met people that I'm sure you have to that they really love special events, like they're all about special events. They'd like them planning the details, and I'm like, good for you.

Becky Endicott

19:38

I'm so glad you're here because I have that deficit.

Michelle Flores Vryn

19:41

So glad you love it. Yes. So really, I think that there's so much value in the comparative experience and you know, it can be it can be frustrating, I think especially when you're younger and lower on the totem pole, so to speak. You do get thrown a lot of stuff but you make the most out of it and figure out what lights you up. So good.

Becky Endicott

20:04

Okay, those are such good answers. And when you're talking about events and doing all the things a nonprofit join, you know, what I'm thinking about is that event that we had at that very large house, when we showed up to the house that had just been bet, it had just been finished. And we show up to our event, which starts in an hour, and the house is not finished. And there's scaffolding everywhere. And there's paint, and here we all are in our lbds. Well, not John, John doesn't have a little black dress, but but everybody else dressed up. And I'm like, calling table saws, like hiding them on the outside. This is real life. But I think your point is well taken, Michelle, that God bless the people that are in that lane, because the sum of all the parts is going to help make the Mission move forward. And if that is your dream, and you want to be in the events, let's keep you in there, and let's have you rise to your fullest potential. But I am very curious about this fundraiser to CEO role. And Adrian, I want to talk to you about it because you've lived this experience. Can you talk to us maybe about some of your unique experiences or inspirational stories of how you transition from that fundraiser seat to the CEO chair?

Adrienne Longnecker

21:15

I would love to and my intention is to end on an inspirational you're wise. But let me let me put some truths out there that that are. So one truth is that, right? In most nonprofit bylaws, it is the board of directors that selects the CEO or this Yes, Executive Director, which means no matter how much the current CEO has developed, a leadership pipeline has cultivated that CTO to take that next step, it will be the board's decision. And therefore, if that CEO is leaving, in any type of way that might not believe the board feeling great, the board is probably not going to bless that decision. And in fact, so often, I see that a board of directors thinks it is their most important role to hire, fire and evaluate the CEO. So they are going to go through an exhaustive search, even if the CEO has said, we have the right person. They're right here. They've been working with us for years, they know the mission, they know the finances, they know the programs, they know all our major donors, you know them, there's trust, here, we've got that person, the board's still going to be like, you know, we got to do our due diligence, we're going to do a big search. So I would just put that out there. And I would also put that out there by saying anyone who's hearing this, who is on a board of directors who may be in that position, at some point, challenge the thinking, challenge the thinking that you need to do an exhaustive search, be creative in providing opportunity for an internal candidate that the executive director or CEO has identified and who has put time and energy into cultivating, give them a chance. That's that. So that's one thing.

Jonathan McCoy

23:08

Thank you for saying that. Because don't I mean, one of the most common things that there's no path and people feel like they have to jump ship. And so you're speaking to this, and you're calling it out, and I'm here for this discussion. Thank you so much.

Becky Endicott

23:21

And I also want to add on, we had a great conversation with Tara Abraham's, who's the board chair of she's the first and Mona sin Ha, who's Board Chair of women moving millions. And they say, having this really integrated bond with your board chair and with your board as CEO and making sure that that's an equitable relationship is key to getting that transition. Right. And the way that Mona and Tara have both mentioned it is I don't have the power. I look to my IDI I look for my EDD guide me, I don't ever come in there with an agenda I want to be led because I'm passionate about this work. And that is the right mindset. And those are the board members. We want to get into our seats in our organization. So okay, we had we had to emote with that. But keep going Adrian,

Adrienne Longnecker

24:09

I'm so happy to hear that those examples exist. Like that's the inspiration right there is that those those types of board leaders do exist. So that's really exciting. And I'm happy to hear. So along my journey, I went to a session at an AFP icon, international conference that was all about transitioning from Chief Development Officer to Chief Executive Officer and it was led by two cisgender white women. And I remember the summary of the presentation was you're likely going to have to go to a different organization, you're going to probably get paid less. And you're probably going to have to move to a smaller organization where you're going to have to wear a whole bunch of different hats in order to get that inspirationally a CEO

Becky Endicott

24:59

said no Never, like

Adrienne Longnecker

25:04

I was so bummed to hear all of that. And for one reason or another that has played out to be my reality, which is fascinating. But also from that I reflected on the idea that what I was witnessing in my particular community was that, in general, white cisgender, men were being given opportunities to prove themselves by moving from a program or a different role into or fundraising into CEOs, they were given a chance to prove themselves, whereas typically women and people of color had to prove themselves before they were given opportunities. And I got really frustrated by that, too. So that's why I just want to say, again, that I'm hearing stories more and more that these are not the norms. And this is not true, and that there are opportunities. And those opportunities are created by the executive directors and the boards for there to be internal candidates who are cultivated and given opportunities within their organization to move forward. Here's the other thing I did, which I think might be helpful for people as they're going along this path is, if you are within an organization that will be going through leadership transition, and you believe you are the right person, your executive believes you are the right person to take that next step. But then you're not given that opportunity. Ask a lot of questions, go to the decision makers and ask why. So that, you know, you can have that opportunity to reflect and then even you know, you can sort of size up their responses, are they just giving the responses that are sort of based on their own limiting and longterm beliefs about how things work? Or, you know, is there something and it's probably an A and a both a? And is there something you can take from that lesson about how you either present yourself or spoke about finances or your relationships with the program team, something that you could work on and cultivate in your next job? Okay, lastly, I had one other point that I wanted to, it's probably pretty obvious. But for me here in Austin, as a single mom, I wasn't going to go to another city. I'm here, I'm committed to my son and his life here in Austin. So that was limiting my opportunities in some ways. If if you have the opportunity to move to different cities, that I would recommend seeking out large national organizations. I mean, Michelle can speak to this because she's worked for international organizations, and but I've been always, it's fun to watch people who have land within a mission area that's really important to them. And that organization in and of itself has ladders and leadership opportunity just because of the size of the organization. You know, I've worked for mostly regional or local organizations and that ladder for leadership just it's not as prevalent perhaps, or as rich as organizations and people who can then move to different areas, but stay within one group.

Michelle Flores Vryn

28:03

Oh, yeah, that's so good. So I think for me, I want to take just a step back and talk a little bit about why this topic is so important to me, as someone very active in the sector, and the nonprofit sector, not just the development field. As I mentioned, I really get excited about systems thinking like that's just who I am. I'm a very, like large scale thinker. And opportunities to affect change and a large scale really excite me. And I see two problems happening, which potentially have the same solution. And we've hinted around this in conversation. The first one is we all know, there's this large exodus of fundraisers and their roles. This is not a new problem. But the current plans based writing about this decade, I swear by see one more article like basically with the same headline, I'm just gonna cry because we haven't fixed the issue. But we know it is an issue. So the fundraiser turnover is one. And the second one is, we definitely have this lack of great leaders to step into these roles. And our friends of the building movement project have done great research around this and 2019, they reported that about half of the current CEOs in nonprofit roles are either going to move from their position or thinking about it, you know, it was going to happen soon. And so if we know that 50% of current CEOs are leaving, and fundraisers are leaving for a variety of reasons, but one being that there is no direct path to where are they want to go, right. And so I'm thinking as a systems thinker, could there be a solution here that if we cultivated more intentionality around kids Considering great chief development officers as CEOs, could this fix two problems? And maybe the answer is no, you know, maybe it's not a great fit. But for me, I think my goal in this conversation is to open the conversation up for us to have dialogue around it. And I really believe that a lot of this intentional pathway has not been formed yet. Because most fundraisers are women. First of all, I think that there hasn't really been a provocation or reason or nobody's leaving pushing this idea. But when we think about the roles, the specific roles that Chief Development Officers play, there's a lot of overlap and the skills that they gain, that you would need to take those skills to a CEO role. So true. So true, right, like and I think like, when you lay it out, everyone's like, Yes, like this makes it so I'm just trying to connect the dots here that I think are very obvious, right? Like CEOs have to have a high level of financial acumen they have to know the numbers, they have to know, the programmatic need on all sides of the house, which can be a challenge, right? Because so many programs within a nonprofit, that can be very different. But not only do you have to know what those program areas need, you have to build relationships with those program heads to make sure that you have a rapport built with him. So you're already doing that CDO. One obvious thing too, is you're really interfacing with the board a lot you're reporting out to the board, you realize like the dynamics of a board, what questions are they going to ask you in a board meeting like you, you're just, I think really queued up in a lot of ways to transfer those skills over. And so, you know, I just want us to think more about why is there not an intentional pathway and should there be one?

Jonathan McCoy

32:02

Hey, friends, do you want or need a plan to reach your fundraising goals this year? Or maybe you're looking for a playbook for how to show up with more confidence as nonprofit leader?

Becky Endicott

32:10

Take your skills competence and impact through the roof and 2023 Join us Inside we are for goods professional development experience and community and We Are For Good PRO. So inside

Jonathan McCoy

32:21

you'll find workshops and live coaching events with Becky and myself and you'll even see some of your favorite past podcast yes to

Becky Endicott

32:29

get activated today at we are for good.com backslash learn.

Becky Endicott

32:43

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Becky Endicott

33:28

Okay, I gotta throw another log on that fire. Michelle, because I agree with you, I think you are absolutely on to something. I mean, are your CTOs invited to your board meeting? Are you giving them access to your board members is the CEO, you know, taking your CTO along on some of these calls where other members I would say it needs to be beyond the CTO that needs to come to the board, the board needs to know our staff. But the other thing I want to just address as a little bit of the elephant in the room have, you got to pay these people. You want people to stay, you want them to rise you want them to achieve we have a massive pay disparity in nonprofit that is leading us to have such terrible retention. We've talked to people in tech on this podcast who say, Look, we're trying to give nonprofit, the tech but it's so difficult when your turnover rate in your organizations is like a rotating door. And we just have to keep retraining and retraining. And I feel that and so I just want all the nonprofit professionals out there to understand. We have your back. We know what you're going through. We've been there. And we've got to create the systems that lead to greater retention, which is something I want to talk about. And Michelle, I want to pitch this to you first is I want to talk about retention, like how can we combine what we're doing to amplify our culture to also keep these employees retained and staying within our missions. We're looking at this study so from nonprofit HR, and it has this alarming trend that I don't think anybody's going to be shocked about, it revealed that 45% of responding nonprofit employees indicated that they're going to seek new or different employment. By 2025, almost half of us are going to be looking for a new job in the next, you know, year and a half. So, Michelle, talk to us a little bit about your thoughts about how leaders can invest in the talent they already have to prevent this from happening. And then, like, How does culture play into that? I'd love your thoughts.

Michelle Flores Vryn

35:31

Yeah. So I would say, you know, the number one thing I feel like we're not talking about that we could be doing is investing time in laying out KPIs to gauge fundraising success, that are not just in old dollars raised. And that takes time, right, like, I have to have some science background, like, I understand that you have to really spend some time thinking about like the metrics, and, you know, what are you trying to accomplish, but we can do this. And I think, you know, with the tech platforms we have whether whatever CRM you have, but you, you can begin to survey donors survey internally, and really gauge different kinds of KPIs. I want us to spend more time thinking about what really matters the most, for us to measure. And, you know, for me, I think we often lose time to ask these questions, because we're so talking about like, chat, GPT and AI. Like, I get it, but like, we really got to like focus on cultural things. And for me, I think the KPI measurement is a cultural thing, because it's very indicative of your mindset, like your mindset of what you think is the most important. And that's a very capitalistic way of thinking, right? Like, the most money you have, that is how successful you are, like that is infinite growth. It's like what we're trying to do. And it's like, what is it? Like, you know, like, let's, let's get creative, and really think about other things we can gauge. It takes time. But I feel like that is the base layer of lasagna that needs to be laid down first, you know, AI and stuff on top of that,

Jonathan McCoy

37:09

not because Italian she's loving this analogy. Yeah,

Becky Endicott

37:12

every time Italian analogies always will land. Let me just

Jonathan McCoy

37:15

hop in there to to just affirm what you were saying. Because I did have the privilege, I guess, of working for a boss that saw some of those metrics that it's like, doing some of the action showing up going out consistently doing some of the things is also just as meriting you can't control the results always. And so you have to be in that dichotomy. But I will say, I think we sacrifice our long game possibilities, because we're so focused on hitting these KPIs that focus on this annual like at December 31. Everything resets. It's just kind of exhausting of a place paradigm to be in, when nothing in the world works like that, you know, so thank you for, for lifting that, because I think that is a very tangible thing that leaders can talk about. So Adrienne, I want you to answer that too.

Adrienne Longnecker

38:00

I'm so pumped up doesn't Michelle get this woman? Yes. One of the words she used Michelle, about just putting this conversation forward, we have this mass exodus of CEOs, which I've been hearing about for a long time. So the CEOs really do need to go ahead and get on out of the way in some cases. And then this a turn of CDOs. And you said we just need to be considering considering if CDOs are the right path and the right person to become the executives. I like that word choice, because considering that does fall to those people who are decision makers, which is often the board. So there are great, as you know, like great professional development opportunities that AFP is providing round leadership. I think individual fundraisers are doing a lot to invest in their own leadership. But it's the other people that are part of the formula that need to be creating this. Yeah, this obvious answer. Again, Michelle, which you mentioned about how many of the skills that fundraisers currently have relationship, financial acumen, understanding the programs and the program evaluation, the relationship with the board, it's an obvious obvious connection. Also, fundraisers know how to tell the story of the impact of contributions tell the story of the impact of the mission. And let's face it, the best executives are spending 50 to 65% of their time fundraising. Yeah. So I just wanted to like really add, as you said, analog to that fire of what Michelle was saying, I love it. So building a culture of retention. As a chief development officer, again, Michelle's just nailed it. It's like we need to redefine growth, I think of growth is sort of that, you know, it's like that Lotus that's just kind of always unfolding. It's not so linear. It's not such a straight line upwards in the diagonal. So KPIs that focus on retention. engagement. Long time ago, I worked for a really successful development team and we evaluated our activity level, not just our closes, right, it's like, how many conversations are we having? And so again, I think so many development professionals are leaving the field because of the unrealistic expectations. So let's redefine those expectations focus on KPIs that are around retention, engagement relationship. So building a culture of retention as an executive now, like, it's kind of a fun new way to think about it, much of it translates like, what are our KPIs for the whole organization? How are we valuing relationships within our own team, within our program partners, and then of course, within the communities in which we interact and serve. So that's redefining KPIs redefining growth, and I just heard from a board member, if you're not growing, you're dying, Oh, geez. Stay in the same as the same as die. And I'm like, Okay, there's something so linear about that thought, but I got to embrace it. I got to work with it. And so I got to redefine growth, right? Like, what does it mean to grow? I've also found that building a culture of retention for this particular organization that I'm so fortunate to lead is about connecting our very small staff with opportunities to be involved in key decisions for the organization. So we're going through a strategic planning process, 30 year old organization, but first very official, comprehensive strategic planning process. And I was sitting at my desk one day, writing the email to the to board members that are involved in the selection of the consultant. And I was like, why am I the only staff member, and I popped out of my desk, went to our program director, and I was like, Katie, I think you should be a part of picking the consultant, I think you should be a part of all of the strategic planning process from this very beginning moment, not just part of the surveys and part of the conversations. And she kind of lit up look, I'm getting a little emotional just thinking about it. But I was like, dang, that was a good idea I had. So we also went through a whole conversation about hybrid work and days in the office. And it was a little laborious at one point. But a couple of days later, I got an email from one of the teams, I was like, Hey, I was just talking to a friend who works for a large tech company, and I realized how fortunate I am to be a part of the decisions that are going to impact my daily life at work. So thanks. Okay, do you

Becky Endicott

42:37

remember from the 90s, the Be Like Mike campaign, be like Adrian's Pete, please be like Adrian, we keep saying, look at your table, who's not at the table, pull them in, if you have privilege, pull somebody up to the table, if it's already full, give up your seat. If this is not the right table, create another table. And these are the things that are going to help move us forward. And I want to give everybody listening, just a little mom hug here and say, if you are working in this mindset of building a retention culture, which I think is brilliant, it's such a brilliant strategy. This isn't this isn't a heavy haul for us, we get retention, we fundamentally more than any other sector, understand what retention is, we need to take those principles that we're applying to our donors, and we need to apply them to our people. And I cannot imagine the compounding effect. And I'm not just talking about you know, attrition. I'm not talking about people staying in the job. But we're talking about people feeling seen, being loyal feeling that they have that they matter that there is worth in what they're delivering, there are so many outputs to this kind of thinking. And that again, is only going to compound and give abundance to your organization. So I am here for all of this. Ladies, you have got me fired up. And you know how much we love story. We believe it is the great catalyst of how people connect, remember each other and build empathy. You both have had these storied careers and nonprofit and I just want to ask you and I'll start with you, Michelle. First, what's a story about philanthropy that has stayed with you? It doesn't have to be one within your organization. It could be one growing up but whatever it is big or small, we would love to hear yours.

Michelle Flores Vryn

44:28

Yeah. So why it is fairly recent. And it starts out you know, the Little Debbie Downer tone, but I promise I'll bring us back up. You know, I think that being in any career for a long time, or like I've been doing this for over 10 years, frontline fundraiser, you begin like to you know, things begin to fall apart. There's cracks, you're like, oh, like is this really what I want to do for a long time? Like, why am I even doing this? But I recently had a philanthropy experience. Through my role she taught an officer at one store are. And unfortunately, in our statewide service area, we had to open up a fund for the Uvalde school shooting that happened last year, which I'm sure we all remember. And I think even when we think about that accident incident that we all are just devastated recalling a memory of it, as am I. And for me, it was personally impactful, because that's the community that I come from, I grew up in, you validate with elementary school there as well. So being asked to, or having the opportunity, rather, I think, to use the skill set that you have to raise funds for community that really needed your help. Probably the worst time they have ever been in was a unique position for me. And I think one thing I could say this now, I mean, at the time, you know, you always obviously have to process a lot of the things that you're feeling See, dealing with, but now, you know, it's almost almost been a year, I can really say that, it really reminded me of the power of philanthropy. And it was a unique role to where, you know, I got to work with Fortune five companies, but also the smaller individual donors, people who just wanted to give you what they could give you out of their paycheck. And, you know, they would tell me, like, when I pay, if there's one, it's like, I'm gonna send you more money. And it really what allowed, I think, this breadth or expanding view of like, the power of philanthropy, and I think you know, that like, intellectually, but it reminded me like, seriously, that every act of generosity matters. And in this Yes, being a facilitator of that is a sacred space to be in.

Jonathan McCoy

46:54

Wow. Thank you for sharing that.

Becky Endicott

46:58

I mean, I still have a very hard time just hearing the word Uvalde, and not having an emotional reaction. So thank you for sharing. So personally, Michelle, Adrian, what about you,

Adrienne Longnecker

47:08

I'm so glad you shared that story. Michelle, she had talked with me a little bit about it at one point and had couched it in when the time is right, I'm gonna share that more widely. I don't know when that will be. And so I wondered if this might be a moment. And so it's such a beautiful story because of your connection to that community. And because it illustrates, what I associate, Michelle's legacy as being is that every gift matters, every gift, every amount, you've really raised that point here in Austin, and I see raising it at the global level. And it's no longer a new idea. But it because of your work. I think everybody is really on board and gets that. So I have thought so long and hard about this question because I have so many amazing just experiences with philanthropy. And with people giving their time and their talent as well as their treasure. And I guess I'll just tell a story of my mom. Because in addition to being in Austin, committed to raising my son here, my elderly, but still very active, Bob lives right around the corner from me. So I'm that sandwich generation where I'm kind of keeping an eye on on, on to folks. And so my mom's a big part of my life and has been for a long time. And in she's like a natural born fundraiser, my gosh, that woman will ask anybody for anything at any time. And it's because she's so passionate. And not only does she like, gracefully request funds, but then she works directly with people every day to help them you know, get food or rent payments or electricity payments. And so she tells these stories, and she was telling a story just about a person that she had been talking with and had met with a donor and a donor had provided just the right amount of money, then my mom was able to talk to this person and say, Don't worry, you know, like your electricity is covered for the next month. You know, and, and the person thanked my mom. And my mom did such a good job of reminding me as she's telling me this story that it's like we as fundraisers often like we get that magic from kind of both ends where we're getting to hear the stories of the impact of giving and the impact of a person being philanthropic and how much that opens their heart. And then we often get to see and be a part of the impact story and being a part of communities that are uplifted. And then in turn those communities become philanthropic and they want to give back or give to others. And so again, I think of this kind of Lotus unfolding in that so often we as fundraisers I just had that amazing opportunity to be in the middle. And I think no one embodies that more than my mom and these stories of her being in the midst of in the midst of these amazing moments that she's where she's just a conduit to that goodness, to. We are conduit or goodness conduit. Right? We are good. I

Jonathan McCoy

50:21

mean, I just feel impact uprising is what we call it. But I think that both your stories are like, gutting me of just like, This is what it's all about. And this why it's worth kind of dealing with a lot of the crap we talked about today to get there, you know, because it is really sacred work at the core. And together, we can like make this a better, more equitable place, it's going to take a lot of conversations like you have led us into today. So I'm just thank you feeling the gratitude of this moment. And I'm really excited that I get to ask you each for one good thing, just a piece of advice to kind of close out and round out this conversation today. Michelle, I'm gonna start with you. What's your one good thing?

Michelle Flores Vryn

50:57

Yeah. So my thing is a quote that I recently came upon, but I want to just steal it upon others, I think it's relevant for our times. And it's an Albert Einstein quote, and it says, you cannot use an old map to explore a new world. And I feel like we are very much in like this new world and new worlds are exciting. So you know, let's create some new maps together.

Becky Endicott

51:20

Well, good luck following that, Adrienne.

Adrienne Longnecker

51:26

Exactly. Michelle's incredible write a quote that's so meaningful. By one good thing has been some old 90s music, oh, girl from my heart and called my Book of Love. And so much of our work is about love. So I just I encourage everyone to listen to some book of love. Wow,

Becky Endicott

51:49

that's amazing. And actually, that's not one I know. Well, so I'm gonna go check it out. I really just want to thank you both from the bottom of our hearts for this very honest, impactful, but also empathy based conversation. It's not lost on me, that we kind of closed out this conversation with you all talking about things that are very personal to you, Michelle, your story about Uvalde. Adrienne, your story of this ripple that your mother has cast in this work is personal, it is deeply meaningful we are, we need to remind ourselves often that while it is incredibly challenging, the rich rewards that we are privileged to get to see and to connect is such a gift. So I know our community is going to want to connect with you guys. Michelle, thank you, you've already been in the community, Adrian, love that you're here. Now we've saved the softest cushion for you Come on into our house. But how can people connect with you? Where are you on socials? And yeah, let's find ways that people can go further with you.

Adrienne Longnecker

52:49

I'll start that time. Yeah, because Michelle is again, a mentor and a coach to me and reminds me that I need to be more active on social media. So I have a LinkedIn presence. I have a Facebook presence and an Instagram presence. And I intend to the 2023 will be my year of re engaging with my social platforms as as inspired by Michelle. But thank you all so much for letting me be a part of this. I really, really enjoyed it. This has given me a big lift for my day. And again, I encourage everybody to check out a little book of love because as fundraisers you're all writing.

Becky Endicott

53:25

Okay, Michelle, how can everybody connect with you? And before you start, we gotta give a shout out to Evan Wildstein, who connected us to Michelle, who is also one of our servant leader like Oracle's in the community. So thank you, Evan, as well. Michelle, how can people connect with you?

Michelle Flores Vryn

53:41

Okay, I love defining Evan doesn't work. Well, I agree with that label. And Evan and I both share a love for LinkedIn. So the easy way to connect with me is on LinkedIn. I'm very active on there and happy to chat more about all things nonprofits.

Becky Endicott

53:55

You women are absolutely incredible. Thank you for your work in the sector. Please go find Adrian Michelle, go deeper. Friends, we are rooting for you. Let's get an alignment on our career. And let's build each other up and retain each other. This is our future and we want to be we want it to be a world that we want to live and work in. Thank you for reminding us of that.

Julie Confer

54:18

Hey, friends, thanks so much for being here. Did you know we create a landing page for each podcast episode with helpful links, freebies and even shareable graphics. Be sure to check it out at the link in this episode's description. You probably hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community. It's free. And you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. You can sign up today at we are for good.com backslash Hello. One more thing If you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and your support helps more people find our community. Thanks friends. I'm our producer Julie confer and our theme song is Sunray by Remy Borsboom

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