Hello, my wonderful Claire rebel. This is Megan here and I have an important announcement for you, which I'm going to be sharing before we dive into today's episode. So at the time of this recording, we're about two weeks away before I close the doors for my sustainable visibility incubator. And if it's your first time hearing about it, this is my six month signature mentorship programme, which are only open once a year. And in essence, what it is, is for introverted, highly sensitive and empathic leaders who are ready to become sustainably visible in order to expand their reach, grow their business and make a deeper impact on their terms. So if you've been looking for a place to really discover why certain strategies haven't been quite working for you, and it's not because you haven't followed them to the tee, it's actually understanding what responses it's bringing up in you and therefore reflecting in your audience. So if you want to really find that approach, which actually adapts and evolves with you, because it honours the intersections of your identity and centralises, your need for safety, then this is the place for you. So if you're interested in learning more about that you can go to megaphone.com for slash apply, which are also popped into the show notes for you as well. And on the invitation page, aka the sales page, you may just find a very familiar name in the testimonials as well. Hint Hint, today's guest. But anyhow, honestly, this is the programme that I birthed into existence. Because when visibility strategies kept saying you just got to keep putting yourself out there, put yourself out there, put yourself out there. I it took me quite some time to actually acknowledge the reason why that felt so unsafe for me not uncomfortable, but unsafe is because I had to acknowledge the privilege that some folks have that I simply don't have access to because of various parts of my identity. Because being visible without a protection plan can actually make you feel extremely vulnerable. And it can actually be an unsafe place for you to be. So that's why I wanted this programme to be in existence. Because yes, we honour the strategies. First and foremost, we all want to safety. And this is the kind of space that I wanted to create for those of us out there who are underestimated, underrepresented, and really have something important to share with the world that they need to share it from a place of consent and agency. In other words, from their temps. So if that's you my lovely, I would love to see your application come through. Again, you can go to make exam.com forward slash apply. And if you're listening to this episode be on the third time of the ninth of September 2022. That same link will take you to the waitlist for the next iteration of this as well. But if you're hearing this, when doors are still open, and you feel cool to learn more about it, please do. So again, make it stand up comm forward slash apply. That will be in the show notes for you should you want to check it out. But thank you so much for listening to important announcement. And now we can get back to the episode. You're listening to the quiet rebels podcast, the place to be to explore what it means to run an online business when you don't always align with the status quo. I'm your host Mai-kee Tsang, the sustainable visibility mentor, certified trauma sensitive leadership coach and podcast guesting strategy trainer. And I'm here to remind you that contrary to what we're taught to believe, you don't always have to be the loudest person in the room in order to be heard. Because if anything, we stand out and make an even deeper difference when we stand up for what we believe in and share who we're supporting along the way. So if you'd like to join me and my guests as we venture into these pretty nuanced conversations, where we choose to find the meaning in the messy middles of our entrepreneurial journey, and let me welcome you into the quiet rebellion. Let's get started. Hello, my wonderful quiet rebels. I'm super, super excited for today's guest. Because as someone who I got, you know, there are some people in your life we just get along with instantly and you can't put a finger on why. And then much later on, you can just see so many interwoven threads that describes so every thank you so so much for coming onto the podcast today and talking about something that I think a lot of us actually really want to get better at but kind of kind of resistance or raising our hand for and that is about having more sustainable sales cycles in a way that is strategic and not sleazy. Ie not embodying the sleazy salesman from friends, for example. And we'll get into that later but free web everyone read Weber Welcome. Welcome.
Thank you Mai-kee So much for having me. I think this will be a really good conversation to get into some of these troops and stereotypes like the floozy salesman that we have in mind.
Yes, for sure. But when you're telling me the kind of thing she wants to talk about, one thing that really caught my attention was things like oh, thoughts on using a sales script or not. So I'm so excited to get into all of this goodness. But before we do, let's dial back a little bit, and actually venture into your kind of journey. So what got you into this? What made you want to talk about this topic today?
Well, for those who who don't already know me, my big kind of space that I have spent a lot of time in is the space of cold pitching. So I've developed my own process for ethical cold pitching, which is about taking a very tailored, very hyper individualistic approach to sending individual pitches to individual people that you really want to work with as the service provider or as a freelancer. And I was really proud of this framework that I created. And I was able to get some really impressive results, like I have a 100% response rate, which is pretty incredibly unusual for the CO pitching space. And the programmes that I've created have helped my students see very similar results getting between 75% and 80% response rate on their pitches as well. But the reason that I wanted to talk about sales, and especially sustainable sales today is because even as I was getting these really great responses, that was just the conversation starter, there was still plenty of discussion that to actually move into a kind of sales cycle. Cold pitch was just a way of opening up the conversation. And I had a lot of hang ups around sales, I had a lot of preconceived notions, I had a lot of emotions around what it meant to be in a sales position. And I think as service providers, even as coaches and course creators, we bring a lot of these kind of preconceptions around sales into sales calls and into our messaging and into the experience. And it can often make it really difficult to show up in a way that's aligned with our values. And it can make it really challenging to honour the needs or agency of the person that we really want to work with or the person that we really want to serve. And because there's so much stigma and because there's so much kind of stickiness around this topic. It's one that I really love to dissect and open up and talk about alternative ways to approach sales.
Yeah, oh, yes, please. Because how like, I'm raising both of my hands here and thinking, I know that there are plenty of times where I probably resisted making sales because I was so afraid of coming across as a seat zzs salesperson that's not a salesman, sales person. Because it's just something that grosses many of us out. And it's like, oh, I don't want to perpetuate that unknowingly or knowingly. And so I love that there is an alternative approach that we can take, which is a lot more value space and human centred, where we really prioritise agency and content from the other person who may or may not work with us. So okay, where do we get started? So first of all, um, who does this apply to more about sweetie today.
So most of the specific strategies that I talked about, and the way that I have positioned, like the offers and trainings that I do around sustainable sales, is for service providers, those who are generally working one to one with clients and providing a deliverable. That said, my own experience as a coach mentor, as somebody selling digital products and other one to many offers, I've done a lot of these principles carry over into the one to many selling space. It's just a kind of change of the medium and a little bit of a change of the specific strategy. But the principles are really very, very much the same.
Awesome, thank you so much for specifying. So for all of you lovely quiet rebels who are listening. Yes, we're going to be speaking mainly from the context of one on one service providers. However, just like we said, there are plenty of applications who don't want too many setting as well. So just take what you feel resonates and try and translate the strategies over as needed. And just really take what you can from this conversation because I know already is going to be gold and full of jumps take away. Okay, so sales calls. Like that has been my reaction to them for a long time. And I realised now that I think about it, I only do sales calls, probably around once a year when I launched my sustainable visibility incubator, because most of my other offers are, you know, via a sales page because they are digital products. They are workshops, right. And so sales calls out please give us a one on one.
So I think that I as you mentioned, there's all a bit of a kind of fear or hesitation around setting up spaces for us to head into SEO As calls. And so we do things like maybe avoid getting back to that lead that just came into our inbox spend a lot of time, maybe considering other ways of selling like social selling, or trying to keep it all in a single email thread where you're pitching your services or outlining a proposal in the body in an email, for example, because we have this fear of getting on a phone, and having a live interaction with someone. And I think that that the reason that we have that fear, the reason that that often feels uncomfortable and squishy is because a lot of us have an association that sales are about a power dynamic, and one that is especially an equal. And that power dynamic is that the client or the prospect holds all of the power, they are the one who can give us money. They're the one who can approve and say, yes, let's work on this project, they are the one who's going to determine the fate to some degree of our process of building our business. And that makes us incredibly uncomfortable to feel like we are on the low end of that power dynamic that we don't have agency that we don't have options that we don't have other pathways to consider. And so we often go ahead, I see you jump it in.
I find that so fascinating. Because when you said an unequal power dynamic, I thought of it as the complete opposite. Oh, this is so interesting. Like the prospects, pre client is actually the one where, where they have lack of agency and concern over what's going to be happening because I have definitely been in situations where I've, when I've been in their shoes where. And what I mean by that is like I've been in a sales conversation where I literally felt like I was being held hostage, unless I gave over my credit card details. And it was very, very uncomfortable. So as soon as I hear uneven power dynamic, that's the first thing that comes to mind. So I'm so fascinated that you're talking about the other way around. So yeah, let's get into it.
So I actually think that what you just described is a response to the fear of being on the other side of that power dynamic. So because we feel like someone else is determining our fate, the direction of our business, we have found all of these persuasion tactics that help us to seemingly quote unquote, equalise that power imbalance, but what really happens is that we push it too far. And then as service providers, we're the ones who are creating this sense of a lack of agency for our prospect because we're maybe pressuring them too much, or creating a space where they don't have room to make a really informed online decision for themselves, just as you described, feeling like you have to give your credit card details before you can get off the phone. So I think that that's, it's interesting, because that balance, I think goes both ways. And so we kind of come to this question of, well, how do we have these conversations where we don't feel like either one of those stereotypes, the sort of the word that's coming to mind is sort of like the meek, lowly, desperate Freelancer who's like, Please give me anything, or the alternative extreme end of that is the overbearing, sleazy salesperson who's pressuring someone into something that they don't even want? And so we have this conundrum of, I don't want either of those. I don't want to embody either of those. So what does that middle space even look like?
Yes. So please tell us how to get like, I want to see like what is the neutralizer like, you know, to neutralise like either of those situations, because I've been searching for that, because I know, out of the two, I've definitely been more on the side where I'm so overly concerned about whether or not the other person feels like they have agency that I probably in a way sabotage my own sales for that consideration. And I know that there is a way to work with that consideration without it being detrimental to my sales process. So yes, please tell us all the things.
Well, I think it is a bit of a mix of sort of intention, and then your approach as well as the actual execution. So what I mean by intention, it's when you're going into a sales call Is your goal to convert that client, because if so, you might, as a result, overlook their needs or overlook red flags for yourself, or indications that you may not be the best fit for them. But when our intention going into a sales call is to determine mutual bid or to help them solve a specific problem, then we're coming in from a very different space, where we can be on the lookout for those red flags that indicate this is not a good client for us, or we can be in a space of serving to help them identify what solution will actually help solve their problem including a solution that does not include services. And I think that space allows for more, that have that kind of human centred business and our business because we're not just looking to convert someone into a client, we're really looking to help them and help ourselves. And so there's a little bit more mutual beneficial. Problem solving that's happening, that's that intention space. And then I think the approach space is how you're showing up to these sales calls. So not from an intentional perspective, but from the way that you are hosting or leading or facilitating this conversation. And again, when you're coming from that intentional space of wanting to help them and wanting to determine mutual fit, then you might spend a lot more time listening than trying to pitch you might spend a lot more time asking questions than you would rattling off your bio. And those things like trying to do a pitch or trying to impress someone or trying to show your authority, those are the things that make us really nervous and have a second guessing, you know, am I really an expert, can I do this, am I going to be good enough? Those are the types of things that can put us on one side of that unequal power dynamic. And a lot of the strategies that I see out there, like sales scripts, do the opposite of putting us in that, that opposite power dynamic. But when we're in a space of reflective listening, we're actually doing a better job of building that know, like and trust factor, because we're allowing our prospects and potential clients to feel seen, to feel heard and to feel valued. And those three core elements are what I associate with building know, like and trust. When someone is seen, they feel like they are getting to know you, when they feel heard, they begin to like you, because that's the space where they're feeling comfortable. And when they feel valued. That's when they know that they're starting to build trust with you. So that approach, along with the intention means that execution actually doesn't feel like a big struggle and actually feels much more comfortable. Because you're kind of just showing up to a conversation, seeing if you can help someone really listening to them. And then at the end of that sales call, for example, you can just talk about, you know, here's how I've identified the ways that I can help you or here's the ways that my service is going to help you solve that problem. And that execution does a lot more human centred, and a lot more supportive than the kind of sleazy pressuring a sales call of like, okay, here's my service, I need your credit card details, we start on Monday.
Gosh, okay, so intention and approach both so important. And what I'm hearing like a common thread that connects the two of them is how much weight we are putting on the outcome, like the attachment we have to the outcome, right? Like, what are we looking for outside of that? And so, I, there's a, there's a little niggling voice in the back of my brain that I feel like I need to bring forward because a part of me, who has been in light, you know, how many of us we do go through a dry spell every now and then in our businesses? What if it feels feels whether it actually is or not? But what if it feels as if we can't, or feels like however this, okay, lack of a better term can't. So what I feel like, we can't afford to be that patient is basically what that is just like the unfiltered version of that question. I literally what if we are that, that freelance or that service provider, we feel like we do need clients now to literally just put food on the table. So for those who are listening right now who are thinking, Mickey, thank you so much for asking that. What would you say? What would you say to us? What would you say to them? Who might feel that pressure to converge because they need it at that time in the business?
Well, I think the first thing is that's 100% valid, even as we're talking about values, and sustainability and ethical ways of showing up. A big part of this process is ensuring that our needs are met. Generally speaking, we want to do that in a way that doesn't compromise others or harm other people. And so I can also say like, I have been in this very same position. And part of my story to co pitching was it I lost all of my clients and they were not even particularly well paying clients are fantastic that projects for me, but I lost all of them at the beginning of the pandemic, and I was in an extreme space of scarcity. And I don't mean that as like a mindset perspective. I mean, that's definitely a part of it. But the real recognition of I don't have a saving set. I don't have any money in their bank account, I am literally using the stimulus check that the government sent out for COVID to pay my rent and giving me 30 days to try and find clients to refill my bank account because I have bills to pay. So it's a 100% valid space to be in. And I think it's important that anyone who is maybe shaming you for being in that space or for using strategies that they may not be using is probably someone to hit pause on listening to you for a bit, and kind of take an oxygen mask for yourself. Now, with that in mind, oh, go ahead.
No, I was gonna say I just want to say thank you for speaking to not not just saying that it's valid, but how you personally experienced that as well, because, well, I can't even begin to imagine what that felt like almost to have like a 30 day deadline to make things work on or else physically otherwise, you could have very literally have lost a roof over your head, you know, paying rent for the place that you're staying in at the time. Right? So just want to say thank you. And I'm so glad that you have learned this skill to kind of not prevented completely because we never know, right? To help reduce the possibility of that happening again, like the skill that you're speaking of is something that can be very, very helpful during those very dry spells. But yes, so I know we got a lot to cover, like especially I'm so I'm so intrigued. But we're going to talk about sales script. But before we do switch gears, And was there anything else that you want to say about this?
I think the really key piece here is that if you're in this position, or find yourself veering into the space, to identify for yourself, what those values are, and those kind of hard boundaries, in terms of your ethics, your values and principles to determine what those lines are for you. So for my example, for my case, when I was in that position, and when I've been in that position in the past, my hard line or my boundary was, I am willing to take on clients that are not a good fit for me, I am willing to take on clients that are going to annoy me who are going to badger me who are going to be indecisive to make it typical to deliver because I do genuinely need that money. But I'm not willing to do is to convince someone to hire me for something they don't need. But I'm not willing to do is to push someone into a larger project or a bigger scope, even though I don't see how it would be valuable or beneficial to them, I I want to believe that the work that I'm doing is valuable to them, and that it will make a measurable impact in their business. So that was the kind of hard line that I drew of like I'm willing to take a bit of a hit, like great fitting clients. But I'm not willing to harm someone or someone else's business, because maybe they're in a really similar position to I am and they're looking for my project to help them get over a particular goal or to get out from red and into black. And I don't want to put anyone into a position where they can't get out. So it's just a matter of kind of identifying what are your values? What are your ethics? What are your principles? And where are those lines that you can draw for that temporary? Kind of time? That you're in that space?
Yeah, thank you so much for speaking to that, because it's it's kind of like the three E's that we've talked about before as the essentials enhancements and embellishments. So if we associate that with our values, I would like which values are essential for us to hold dear and honour at all times, no matter what, which values can you know, enhance our experience of the work that we do? And what are nice to have? Seems like it's kind of like, oh, yeah, I'd love to get that designer handbag, but I don't need it. It's nice to have. So is applying that sort of is applying that to add value. So thank you for sharing your examples as well. Okay, so I want to switch gears because, again, as soon as you said it, I've been looking forward to this like, oh, cool, all of this cool so far. So sales scripts to have or not to have or when to have rather. So tell us.
So my opinion is that there is a specific type of sales script that is good to have. And the rest of sales scripts are probably not so good to have. And the specific type is one that you write yourself, one that is based on you, your services, and your audience. But when we swipe sales scripts from other people, we're taking a very templated approach to having a conversation that is meant to be very personalised because we're having these one on one kind of experiences. We're having these sales conversations with usually just one person or just as a team of decision makers. And the point is that I'm actually yeah, let's talk about the point of a sales call, what are we even doing sales cycles. And I'm gonna go back to we want to show that they are seen, we want to show that they're heard. And we want to show that they're valued. And then we have all of the relevant information to explain how we can help them, and what our approach is what that solution is to solving their problem. And so going back to sales scripts, so much of a sales script is about what we're saying. It's about how we show our authority or expertise or contract, contradict or respond to objections, and will lead to a whole nother topic that we. But really what needs to happen, and what's so valuable about having a sales call is listening, is hearing them to really empathise with the problem that they're having. And make sure that you understand it so that when you do respond, it's mostly responding back to what they've said, reflecting back to the research to show that you understand, and then making a recommendation on how to solve that problem. So often, until I have a programme called Sustainable sales accelerator, which is essentially building out your sales system. And one of the things that we talk about a lot is how you know, like 80% of our sales call is as just listening, it's not as talking, it's not as pitching, it's not as proving anything, it is a sort of thing. And those are the calls that are actually more likely to convert into a client.
Oh, as soon as you said, the kind of sales give to kind of like keep nearby would be one to write yourself through immediately. I feel like my little, my little cynic voice because I really coming out to play this conversation, but it tells you a lot that they're not the first thing I can't answer. But the reason why we don't have it is because we don't know what to put in it. But you've already started to share, like the kinds of things that we can put in there the things that help our pre clients or prospects to feel seen, heard and valued absolute ly. And in integrating, integrating those moments of reflection, where we reflect back to what they've said, just so that we that they can see for themselves that yes, I've heard what you said. And here is like my response to that. And all of that. And I'll jump in,
it's okay, please, please. I think there's a lot of I've, I've again, I've been in this position, that's where I was on these sales calls, after sending out pitches and being like, I have no idea what to say, I don't know how to lead this conversation. I don't know how to be the person that I showed up as in this email that I sent to start this conversation. So when we sit down to write our own sales script, we're just like, I don't know what to say. That's why I'm looking for someone else's. Exactly. But what's really interesting that I've noticed is that when people get on these into these sales calls, or even if they're just doing informational interviews with folks in their industry, and they're just asking questions about like, tell me about your business, who is your audience? What are the types of things that you're looking to do? You know, what's what's really challenging you right now, as we listen, and we're trying to understand how we naturally start to respond to that we say, oh, maybe we can do you know, a strategy with your content. Or maybe it's time to update your website, or maybe it's time to actually create brands, brand guidelines, we naturally start to respond to the information that we're hearing, because we're already doing things like levelling up our skills and practising our way of thinking through these types of problems. So we're just not spontaneously generating these ideas, which is why I find it incredibly helpful to ask permission and get consent to record my conversations with prospects, information on loans, if you're interviewing your peers in the industry, or potential referral partners, ask if they're okay with you recording that conversation, so you can revisit and start to note down, you know, a lot of people are having this type of challenge and they explain it in these ways. If I start to reflect that back in my sales calls, that's going to show that I understand because I've done this research, and I've done this work, and now I have the beginning of my sales script.
Okay, so question for those who haven't yet done that research prior. Where would you invite them to start? It's like well, it's great if you have research to inform your sales growth but what if I don't have that? So again, honestly, where is this little cynic may coming from? Little baby version of me like hang on a second? How I'm hearing her voice right now. Thank you. So, well, is there anything that you'd say to little sitting make it look just She's very present in today's call for some reason.
I would say, it's really hard to find a solid substitute for that information. In the copywriting world, we call that voice of customer. And that's really what we want to collect. And if you're not in a position to be looking lots of sales calls or having informational interviews, and you can just start by scouring the internet, in the communities and groups that you're involved in, how are people talking about these things, if you go on different social media sites, see how people are describing their their wins and challenges, a place that I love looking at is the testimonials of people who are in similar fields to me, because people are describing that before and after state so you can get a good sense of, here's what they're struggling with. And here's what they want. Great. Now I have a better sense of what they're looking for.
Oh, that's such a good tip. Thank you so much for sharing that. And yes, I remember back in the days when I was a copywriter, when if you don't have customer interviews to look to to help inform the copy that you write, then we do look into reviews and testimonials, because it does again reflect some of the language, what people originally searching for, and what they actually got after buying a product or trying out a different service. So, so so good. So the remaining is called? It is absolutely. Okay, so is there anything else on the sales scripts that you wanted to mention before we start shifting gears until to helping us avoid embodying that sleazy salesperson? And with a very specific clip from a TV show that I've loved watching? That was so going to go into? But before then, is there anything else that you want to say on sales scripts?
I think the last thing I'll say and you can let me know if you want to touch on this later is a lot of sales scripts tend to focus on how to address objections. And I have a lot of thoughts on that. So we can do that. Never later.
Now, let's do that now. Because I feel because as soon as you mentioned sales script at all, my first thought was back when I first obtained one when I worked with a mentor for the first time. And I remember thinking, Oh, this is so reassuring, because this is what they say there's what I say. And like this seems to work as interconvert. But back back at the time, it was probably like, what 2016? I think it was, oh, wow, that's quite a long time ago. 2016. And I only paid attention to whether it worked, and not how it worked. You know, and this is like, this is where we get into the nuances of which things are an alignment with our values or not these days, right, because you know, our values kind of shift over time. But anyhow, one of the things that I always found such it felt like just to kind of even say this out loud, by the way, when someone has an objection to call it out as an excuse. And I always thought that was so dismissive. And I thought to myself, what if it's not an excuse, maybe it's an excuse to us, because when we're making it mean about ourselves, when someone is giving us an objection is that we're not good enough, something like that, and therefore we fight back, or by calling out excuse, but these days, when people say it's an excuse, I say that No, I think that's an explanation based on where they're at. Like, I'm not there to persuade people out of whatever situation they're in, because that's where they're making the decision from anyway. But anyhow, I can
I mean, this box for us.
Yeah. So tell us your thoughts around the objection. handling objections part that seems to be a common theme on many of the sales scripts out there that are templated?
Yeah, so and I think you really kind of hit the nail on the head a little bit here that a lot of what we have traditionally thought of, when it comes to responding to objections is handling them. Even that language is very just like we need to eliminate this objection we need to and part of the response in sales scripts is often dismissing them, calling them out as excuses saying it's a mindset issue that really irks the day. And so when we get this copy pasted template or sales script to use on our calls, it means that we have language to follow where we can essentially start a calm argument to sort of talk someone out of that objection. We're trying to explain how it's wrong or they misunderstood or actually, it's different for this reason. That's why we had this feeling of being dismissed. But if we go back to intention, approach and execution, we're trying to make our prospects feel seen. We're trying to make them feel heard. We're trying to make them feel valued, which means that if we're dismissing their objection Hands are trying to obliterate them so that they logically see have like nothing to grab on to as to why they don't feel ready to move forward. They're going to feel that pressure to convert, even when they don't want to, but have a lot of implications for the client relationship down the line. And we can talk about that in a bit too.
Oh, you just painted such a visual just now. You said nothing to grab on to. And I immediately thought of being lured into a hole. And then suddenly, the rope ladder was just being raised where I can't reach anymore. Oh, gosh, that vision. Right? Mark? Yeah, absolutely.
For as we're listening, as we're talking about this, you can do that and be like, Whoa, this is just the sales call, like combat, like there's not a big deal. But like, we're bringing our emotions into it. We're very, like, these are problems that we're having. And we're we're talking to someone being like, this is something that you can help me with. So you're coming with this appeal for help. And then to feel like you're like lower down this dark hallway. And then you have nothing to grab on to like that feels very scary, it probably triggers or fight and flight, fun and freeze it. There's so many I'm trying to keep track of. But and that's one of the reasons we've gone down a bit of a long pathway here. But that's one of the reasons that having just a rote script, to repeat in response to specific objections may not actually be effective, let alone ethical in terms of how you're showing up in that sales call. So the approach that I like to take is one, I want to just listen to what they said. So if they, for example, the most common one is generally a pricing objection of like, Ooh, I don't know, that's a bit too much to spend, or it's a bit out of my budget, or I'm not sure if I feel comfortable with that amount. And one of the number one things that I do is, I will be silent, I will just give someone a moment or two to process that information. So that they can have whatever emotional reaction that they might have, and then decide if they have questions for me. So if they say, Hi, I know that's a bit too expensive. And I jump in to be like, Oh, no, but it's a really great value because of XYZ, that I haven't given them any time to process. And that is probably what makes them feel like that is being dismissed, and they're being pressured to convert. But if they say I don't know, that's a bit expensive. And then it gives them a moment to breathe in that and they kind of think and process at they might come back with. I don't know, can we do a payment plan? And I may be like, yes, absolutely. Let's do a payment plan. And then suddenly, we have found a solution. And we're ready to continue moving forward. Or maybe they ask questions about, you know, the deliverables or the value of it or my credentials, but it really gives them the space to let me know what they're really worried about what they're mostly concerned about. And they're gonna ask that as a question, and then I have a chance to respond.
I feel like this could be like a quotable for this episode, solutions are in the silence. And, like, I know that we just like ticked our need for alliteration. But that's such a good way to just really not feel the need to fill up the space. You know, and that can cause silence can often feel so awkward for us. It's like, oh, no, like silence is a bad thing. But no, it can actually be such an intelligent state to be in to allow for the person on the other side, to have those extra moments of deep introspection. And to see like, Yes, I may not have the money completely. But what can I do with that. And it's the same with the objection that comes with time that time and money are like, the two most common objections that we see out in like any form of sales compensation. But those are things that are outside of our control, we we don't get to determine how much money they have in their bank account, or how much access to credit they have. We also don't have any control over how they spend their time, that's going to be their choice. But what we can do is at least hold that space for them to help them decide what they could do what they have.
Exactly. And I think you just answered it. The kind of flip side of that is what if they're not asking you questions, what does that give them that silence, and it just sort of hangs there and they've only made a statement? And that's our cue to ask questions. So they say, let her know that's a bit expensive. And then we sit and they silence and they don't respond and I've given them a beat. Then I can say, What did you budget for this type of project? And I can open up that conversation and see if they're willing to engage in it with me.
Yes, okay. So if they ask questions, then maybe that's a bit more of our cue to have more silence there like just just to give them a minute a beat, as you said. But if they just left with a statement, and they don't seem to be carrying on with that, then maybe that is our cue.
Yes, mostly because I found that when someone has made a statement, and I've given them some time to process, and they don't go anywhere with it, it's because maybe they don't know where to go there. They maybe just blanked out, like, I can't think of any solutions. I don't I don't know how to make this work. I don't know what I want to do. So by asking questions that are open ended, rather than like, so do you want to move forward, which is a closed ended question, and giving them space to kind of explore that and like, Ah, okay, well, I guess I hadn't really thought about my budget. And then we can talk about that more. And we can kind of work together collaboratively to figure out a solution. And if we can do that, that's going to be a great indication of how it's going to be working together on this client project that we can be collaborative, creative, and come up with solutions together.
So little, little mini, make a little mini cynic, mega is coming back out again, as she's asking, like, yesterday. So what what she's trying to say is, okay, so it's one thing to ask these questions when you're used to being in response, but what it's your first time running a sales call without a script, and you're just trying this out? And like, is there anything that we can lean on? Or is there any patterns that we should look for in ourselves, or I say should very sparingly? You know, me, I don't like that. But yeah, for those who are probably trying it out for the first time, and just kind of letting if you think of, if you're going into an ice skating rink is kind of like letting go of the sides for the first time to actually like, skate on pure ice with no, there's no little pinwheel to hold on to for because the ice skating rinks not a real penguin. The ice skating rinks that I go to like to help kids that ice skate, or adults are just very nervous. Little penguins that are a little handles on them, they can kind of skate with it. But yeah, for those of us who don't have those penguins, or the size to cling on to, and we're actually just free skating for the first time, or in this case, in the context of sales. Cool. That's just trying out without bounds. In essence, what would you advise there?
Well, I think that, aside from testing out things, like I think you call it solutions in the silence, I call it the power of pause. Gotta bring them that alliteration. I think there are a few things we can do to help us go into a call and a specific frame of mind so that we don't, and kind of running away with fears or anxieties that will make it difficult to be present. Because I think being present in the conversation is what really helps us to be comfortable being silent for ourselves for a moment. And then that gives us time to maybe process and decide, oh, I want to ask an open ended question here. So there are a couple of things that we can do there. But I think the most helpful thing, if you haven't done this before, and you're nervous about doing it with a potential client, whether it feels like there's something on the line there is to not practice with the potential client, practice with a peer practice with a friend do this sort of mock sales call to kind of build out the loose framework of your potential sales script and your your kind of how you want to frame the call the types of questions you plan to ask, and the ways that you want to respond when certain types of objections maybe do come up. And then you get to practice in a trusted space with a friend or a peer who knows you and who's not going to judge or shame you for getting it wrong. And then you can decide, Oh, I really liked the way I handled that that worked well, or that didn't quite feel right. I want to try it this way instead. So you give yourself some safe space to practice, which I think can be really helpful to have some trial and error in a arena that doesn't have that same kind of weight, or the same high stakes that maybe a clinic call one.
Yeah, that's really great advice I literally inside of our SBI programme, something that you that you're probably familiar with and the time in the programme where all of you get the opportunity should you want to take it and to do a mock workshop or a mock interview so that when you're practising talking about your topics for the first time, or you're doing a new spin on it that you haven't done before, you get to practice in a room where you have your peers with you so that way you do get to just try it out but not be so worried about getting it, quote unquote wrong. And like it's a space for feedback and warmth. And we just want to help you to do, like, what you feel is best, that sort of thing. So I feel that that's pretty much what you're saying in terms of the sales call. So if we are trying something new for the first time, and we don't feel entirely comfortable doing it on a, on a potential client, to actually do it with someone who we trust, and who will have our best interests at heart to give us some constructive but welcomed feedback. Yes, yes. Awesome stuff. Okay. So something that you and I also bond over is friends, and we mean the TV show. Because when you said sleazy salesperson, the first person I thought of, so I don't remember the specific episode, I'm just gonna remember a particular scene in the episode. So one of the characters Joey Tribbiani, for those of you who do not watch Friends, basically, as his character who is an actor, and because of his line of work, he sometimes has, like spurts of time where he is like on set, but a lot of the time he's at home, when a lot of his friends are out for their nine to five, for example. So either home one day, and then someone knocks on the door. And then literally just as he opens the door, the person literally like steps in to the apartment, and is literally starting off a sales conversation that Jerry didn't like he didn't anticipate clearly. And then he spent so long with Joey trying to persuade him to buy a set of encyclopaedias. And you chime in here as well, you know, what else happened in this particular scene?
Well, I think this is actually a really great example of, in this case, Joey, providing a lot of reasons, valid objections to buying it's an entire set of encyclopaedias and spoiler, at the end of the scene, the sort of final objection is oh, well, you know, I don't have enough money for an entire set. So you know, I can't I can't buy and this salespersons responses, Oh, you don't have to buy the whole set, you can buy this one, the one that we've been looking at. So for the letter V, I think it was yes, you can buy this one for the amount of money that you have now. And this sort of, and Joey at this point is like, well, I don't have any other reasons not to buy, I can't think of anything else to respond with a no. So he buys the Encyclopaedia. And I think it's a great example of all of the tactics that can be used to put the seller in that state of power, and that power imbalance that we talked about. And in that example, or when you watch the scene, I remember watching it much younger, and thinking this was a great experience for everyone, everyone seemed to leave happy, everyone seemed to be good. But the next scene is Joey with the rest of the friends. And he's feeling a bit out of the loop with their topics. So he brings up one of the things that he's just read in his encyclopaedia for the letter V, it brings up all of these V words, and the convert, everyone joins in and he feels really great. But then the conversation veers off to another topic that isn't be related. And then he has that same feeling of left out. So the problem in the original scene, with the salesperson selling this encyclopaedia, the problem that the salesperson was kind of calling out is, you know, people are talking and you feel left out, this is going to make you feel smart and feel like you can be involved in the conversation. And then he he didn't listen to Joey's objections, he sold him something anyway, and Joey didn't have his problem solved. So he left, he spent the money, you didn't get the experience that he want. And he was disappointed as a result. And if we apply that to how we have sales conversations, and sales cycles with our clients, can you imagine going through a sales experience that feels a little bit uncomfortable? But then you think, Okay, well, at least I got my problem solved. Only to be like, very unhappy with that experience, or, or very uncomfortable the result? Would you have felt like you have enough trust built to go back to that person and give feedback? Do you feel like you would have enough like relatability with that person to explain what feels uncomfortable and why or would you probably more likely think that that person is just going to run through why those objections are not valid either.
Because just that experience of not needing something, but for a moment you believe that you needed it. And then just having just falling on your ass. Basically, it's like, oh, actually, this is so not what I intended and it's just like a negative experience all around. So Oh, bless Joe So, in that scene, and that's all those are people who have probably had an experience like this as well, like, I can totally raise my hand. It's definitely the one where I felt like I was being held hostage. And I thought to myself, hey, well, at least I'm going to get what I originally intended before I felt like this. But actually, that experience, coloured my entire experience being in a in a certain programme, and I didn't even want to get results by following their advice. And there's just no serve.
Yes, exactly. I think it's important to kind of call out how the entire experience is coloured. So I had a friend who had that same sort of experience, but in a one to one client services deliverable, where they went into that conversation being like, I don't know, if I really need this, and the person convinced them, no, you definitely do, etc, etc. And they are eventually converted, did the project got the result were very unhappy with it. And instead of being in a space where they could collaborate, like, well, let's figure out another solution. Or maybe we need to approach it in a different way, there was already enough erosion of that relationship that was fledgling and small and just beginning already, but it really kind of ended with like refund requests, and chargebacks. And all of those negative and happy results that we're hoping to avoid when we're trying to provide a service to our clients. But I want to say that the flip side of that is that when we give space for objections, when we allow for silence, when we focus on listening, and just seeing, hearing and valuing the person in the conversation with us, that also means that we're building a really strong foundation of practical and emotional trust. So that as we go through the experience of working with them, and continue to follow through on our promises, and give them the deliverables, that they're asking for the transformation that we promised them, they're far more likely to provide us with amazing testimonials to refer us to their friends and peers, and to come back to us for repeat projects. And that's really what we're looking for to build a sustainable business.
Yes, yes, yes. All to that. So thank you so much for speaking to us. And it's very clear that we've covered so much ground, but I feel like we haven't even got to the tip of the iceberg. This might need a part two. So we've covered because we covered a lot of ground, it may be many of our cloud rebels who are listening right now might be thinking, okay, but where do I start? So where would you advise us to kind of probably look into our sales processes to kind of like see, they almost do like little audits to see like, what might we want to kind of like move around or shift in our process?
By that, do you mean like, are how we're showing up at our sales systems?
I just mean, in general, where can we start after this episode is basically what I'm asking.
Right? Well, I think if you're so if you're listening, and you're thinking, Yes, that's what I want to move more towards, I'm Yes, I want to try and make that happen. I just don't know what to do or where to start. And I would recommend one or two things. The first would be to maybe take some notes from kind of what really resonated with you and just sort of jot down some of the things that you're interested in trying out maybe the examples that we talked over, or the opposite of those not so lovely examples that we talked about, and call up a friend or a business buddy that you can kind of trial them out with in that same kind of mock sales call space. And the second thing that you can do is start to create a framework for yourself to kind of give yourself some direction almost of how you're going to run your sales calls. And I'm talking about sales calls, because that's generally for most service providers, the bulk of the sales experience or the sales cycle. It's absolutely not all of it. But so much of the principles that are framework can blend out to kind of either side of maybe a proposal or the back and forth qualification process and so on, and building that framework of how are you going to show up to the call? What's going to happen for the first five minutes? What's going to happen at the end of the call? What are the types of questions that you're going to ask. And if you're still like Bree, that's the thing that I'm asking you for. I don't know how to do that. And then this is where I would I would do it, you know, but I've applied to say I have a digital product called sales call masterclass that walks you through exactly how to do this and provides examples are things like reflective questions and open ended questions that you can ask and examples of those in action and how it's worked. So you can see, literally from my sales calls, what a client has said And what I responded with and then what I was able to do with that information. So you can start to see how these pieces kind of plug and play together.
Can I just say that was so smooth? Like, if you hadn't said the workflow, like, I would not have realised that, but I thought to myself, wow, like that felt a bit smooth. Thank you so much for sharing, like where we can get started. And of course, where we can learn more. So where else can we find you? So give us all the links, like for those who are like, Okay, I need Bri in my life, because I was not aware of her at all, until this interview today. Yes, tell us.
Yes. So you can find my website at cold pitch copy.com. And if you really want to kind of hang out and chat, my inbox is where that happens. So you can sign up to my list. And just know that if you reply to any of my emails, I reply to you, I'm the person in my inbox, I read and respond to all of my emails. And those one on one conversations are the ones that I really love having. And so please hit reply, and let's chat. If you're more of a social media type person, then you can find me on Instagram at my handle is the Bree Weber.
Okay, cool. And did you share the link for your master class? Because I don't think
I didn't, but we can drop it in the
show notes. Okay,
I will say for anyone who's like, yeah, I don't know, maybe I want to, I will create a special version of the master class, or rather a special link of the master class with a discount. So you'll find it at a make a specific place so that you can check it out and get a sense of how to create that framework for yourself.
Thank you really appreciate it. It's quiet rebels, we have our own special link. Thank you. So appreciate that. So I've got two final questions for you. And then we're gonna wrap up for the day. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay, number one, what makes you a quiet rebel? I love this question.
So I think it's is a mix, because I definitely identify with the label quiet rebel, because I have that more introverted and highly sensitive side of myself. And so a lot of what's going on is maybe a little bit more beneath the surface, except when I get really fiery about things like sales. So that there's that quiet space. But I also think that my approach to I guess life and business in general, tends to start out following what other people are doing, decide that doesn't work for me. And then I find myself going against the grain or going against the status quo. And I think that that's a really big theme of being the quiet rebel, I'm not necessarily shouting about it, I'm not asking everyone to follow me, it's not necessarily even a very public thing. It's just me kind of finding these small, almost silent ways of bucking the status quo, figuring out my own way of doing things, and then being really happy with that pathway. So that's what being a quiet rebel kind of feels like to me.
I love that. And the beauty of this is you can be a quiet rebel to being quiet rebel, because there's no sets standard, I just feel that is there is a thread of our approach to things that seems to be very similar. And for those of you who don't know this, earlier, when I first introduced you rate, I spoke about how, oh, you know, you meet someone for the first time, you know, you're gonna be like, really close. So if you, if you all don't, didn't pick up on it, the parallels are brilliant, and I have had and do have in our businesses is, it honestly blows my mind a lot of the time. So her thing is, like cold pitching. Mine is pitching podcasts. And as the approach when when like, you don't necessarily know them, but you take an extremely personalised approach. And the conversion rate is much higher. I don't have 100% response rate, but I have a 33% booking rate, which is very good. Anyhow, and then you have sustainable sales, and I'm sustainable visibility. So like hand in hand, I feel like with an ultimate ladder of progression.
We're gonna have to start like, aligning the next offers that we create together. Yeah, I
think so. And actually a little mini plug, before we ask the last question, a little mini plug that we're not going to announce until later on in 2022. But you're listening to this podcast right now, you're probably going to be the first to know, Ray and I are actually in collaboration to do a limited series podcast together. So these these overlapping layers and this these parallels that we have, they are going to come to a point where we are going to be collaborating, so that's super exciting, but more on that later.
If you like listening to our voices together, you can have more of it.
It's gonna be plenty more I'm already thinking of a season two, even though we haven't released Season one yet. Anyhow, I totally like went off a tangent. But anyway, final question. What is one weird fact or a fun story about you that no one else knows on the internet.
So I've been thinking about this, but a fun story that I don't think I've shared on the internet. But I have a lot of these sort of travelling misadventures. And this took place when I used to live in the UK in London, and I'm still sort of new and finding my way around. So I don't remember exactly where I was travelling, but I was hopping on a train and going somewhere countryside s. And we were pulling through a couple of regional train stations and the ticket checker clicker present, I don't remember, attend train attendants was coming through and checking everyone's ticket and I can't I'm I know her. And he immediately says, like, you're on the wrong train. I was I was honestly not super fazed, because it was definitely not the first time that that had happened to me travelling around Europe, the US does not have any trains. And so it was still a learning experience for me. And I was like, oh, okay, like, what do I do? Do I get off at the next stop? And I was essentially just going like, North instead of South, I needed to be going the other way. And he listened to my voice and said, Are you Canadian? And I said, No, I'm American. And he said, Oh, that makes sense. And then everyone laughed. And like, a, like a sweet way I like I didn't feel like they were laughing at me. They were just laughing at his joke. And so I said, Okay, so like, so what do I do, and he essentially kind of said, you know, we're gonna give you this one for free. I didn't have to, like buy a new ticket or anything, like we're gonna help you out. And he like, guided me off the train. So I could get on the next one going back the other way. And it was a really endearing experience. It just sort of reinforced even like travelling in America. And there are a lot of stereotypes, and sometimes somebody them, but it just sort of reminds me of the sort of kindness and generosity of strangers. And that's the thing that I love the most about visiting new places, and exploring in other parts of the worlds that I haven't called my home. And so that's one of my favourite travel misadventures, because it could have gone in so many different directions, but it went to a really lovely
one. Oh, that is so so wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And yes, you the generous generosity of Brits. And I honestly didn't know that stereotype of Americans, by the way, because, yeah, well, actually, no, I've never taken the train when I've been in America.
We sadly do not have the train system that I want us to have. But fingers crossed, that will change.
Fingers crossed indeed. And actually, just to kind of mirror the sweetness I've also witnessed on my travels in the UK. So this is purely in the London Underground where it's very stuffy everyone's normally rushing to get a to get out of the underground because it's a very young, we don't have aircon, we are newer trains now have aircon but I remember seeing someone who had crutches and was really struggling to get up the stairwell because that is actually not always accessibility points with with lifts in every single tube station. And I saw the look on his face that he knew that he was gonna struggle going upstairs because everyone else was rushing. And when my partner and I were about to step in and help, there were two strangers who said to him like, Hey, if you're okay with it, would you be alright, if I gave you piggy back? And his friend was carrying the crutches and the look of sheer joy on this man's face when he was being lifted up? It was always just tears me all because so sweet to see it. And everyone who was just like witnessing the scene was just so it's such an endearing moment. So yeah, some strangers can really surprise you.
I love moments like that, where you're deciding, I don't know, do I step in? Do I help? And then you think, Okay, I'm gonna step in and just to do move forward, someone else has done that same thing. They were just, they just made that decision a little bit faster. So I tend to think that's probably what's going on for most people. I thinking, Should I help? And then somebody else has just jumped out right there.
Yeah. So we have wonderful travel stories in the UK.
Yes. Secondly, our third podcast that we do
plenty of things to collaborate for. But really, I just want to say thank you so much for showing up with our quiet rebels today for all of your wonderful knowledge, your lived experience and your expertise around sustainable sales and really getting in To clearly something that activates a little mini cynic maker that has never, ever come out in the history of the 100 Plus episodes of the quiet rebels podcast, by the way, she's never come out like this. So clearly, there's something that was compensation that just kind of like, draws her out of me. That's I feel honoured. Thank
you. And thank you also for just giving me a platform to speak about some of these topics that are very near to my heart that I feel very passionate about. And I appreciate the soapbox.
Oh, absolutely. Please take all the soapbox mode. Oh, you'd like alright, so thank you so much once again, and for your lovely quite real quiet rebels. So I just can't English today. For all of you lovely quite revelatory listening again, for all the links that were mentioned in today's episode. You can find them in the show notes. So where to get Brees special, wrote quiet rebels offer for herself, call masterclass and when to connect with her and speak with her on Instagram and in her inbox, because she is very much the one who responds to all of her emails. I know because I'm on the receiving end of a lot of business just to be a thank you so much for you. Thanks. Thank you so so much for listening to this episode of the current rebels podcast today. But any links as mentioned in the episode, you can absolutely find them in the show notes below. And two final things before we wrap up for today. Number one, if you do like the vibe, and you're pretty new here and you're thinking you might want to stick around to see what else comes up here, then I totally invite you to hit the subscribe button. And number two, if you'd like to invite your friends and to help me spread the word to other quiet rebels out there who have yet to find our incredible community. And it would really help if you would leave us a review. So whichever app you're listening to this episode on, all you need to do is scroll to the bottom and there will be an option to write a review. Any words will be incredibly appreciated. So thank you so much in advance if you decide to do that. That's everything for today. So thank you again for joining us and I hope that you join us next time. Until then, bye for now.