Hey everyone, welcome to part two of our discussion on the all the things ADHD podcast for the guidebook of you, I'm about to drop us back into the second half of Amy and my conversation for part three or step three, I should say. And just as a reminder, you can always email us at all the things adhd.com I'm ready writing and she is did you want on all of the socials? And so let's just get started.
And the third thing, okay, is about making a task more attractive. Yes, this is where it gets interesting. I have some ideas for this. So here we have William Dodson again, so he's the man who comes up with the ADHD motivation of being challenging, interesting, novel, and urgent. And everybody who has ADHD will know what deadlines produce deadlines to produce challenge. They produce urgency, right? So most of us they produce dopamine, they produce dopamine, right is that suddenly, in the face of mortal panic related to a deadline, you are able to focus, you're focusing on something that you knew the whole time was important. Maybe it's an application to grad school, maybe it's like, I don't know, like your mortgage application, it seems to involve applications for me all the time. Maybe it's like submitting this thing or getting that art piece done. But like, you know, it's important, right, from the minute you start it, you know, it's important, and you know what the deadline is, but you can't start, even if you check with your values and goals, and it's perfectly consonant that you want to get this done. It's part of the important part of who you are. And like, you know, if you don't practice the piano a little bit every day, you're not going to be able to play your song and then practicing for three hours on the day of your lesson is not going to achieve the same goals as practicing 20 minutes a day in the seven days before your lesson. But somehow, you can't do it. Right? You can't do it. It needs to be challenging, novel, interesting, or urgent. And so most ADHD people will say, I get my best work done at the last minute, because that turns something important into something that's urgent. And now it's a challenge. And it's a game like, can I get this done? Or am I going to get fired, I better do this right? That you get that jolt of dopamine and adrenaline and cortisol, and that makes you go. But as we level up in life, the things that we have to do are too big, to really stuffed into a period close enough to the deadline that we get that goosing of urgency. By the time we're finally knuckled down enough to start it, it is too late. It is too late. But we were unable to do it beforehand. So what I'm interested in exploring with you now, are some of the ways that as we have come into self knowledge and self acceptance, and self accommodation, what are some of the ways that you and I maybe have managed to find ways to produce challenge, novelty, urgency and interest in tasks that we do want to do and which are important, but which we otherwise would struggle with?
And I think there is also as the tasks get bigger, and this is, again, they're reading about neuro divergence and ADHD is, depending on the task, right? Like, I know what a finished application looks like, I know what a you know, but in other times, for things that are more either abstract or unfamiliar, we don't know what the end result looks like. So we can't figure out the steps in between, yet, right, I have to do this a amorphous thing. And it's important, and I value it. But I also don't understand it. Right? Enough, so that I can, like, know, what it filled out application is. And I think that that is probably one of the stumbling blocks that causes it to already be too late. Because I still don't even know what I'm really understanding what I'm doing. Right. And I haven't been able to articulate that in a way where it's just it looks like procrastination looks like I don't want to do it. But what it really is, is that I don't want to and it's and again, it's really hard to articulate when you say I don't understand what I'm doing. And people are like how do you not understand what you're doing? You're doing this? Yeah, and you're like yes, but like what are the what are the stat I don't know what the end looks like, right and or I can see the end but I don't know the intermediary steps because my brain can't extrapolate those things. Yeah, right for now. Yeah, now and not now. Right now. It is not done. Right. Now somewhere in the future. It isn't but like the like, like just flatten the time. Like there are no Do intermediary steps. So like, my, one of my strategies, and it is, is to just really break things down into manageable components. Yep. And that each one seems normal you'd Yeah. Right. And each one conceiving novel, where it's like, I'm not filling out this application for six hours, right? I'm doing this discrete task and this discrete task that is different from this discrete task and this discrete task, that is, you know, that that is like to be able to be able to do these things, right? So I think that,
like, you're gonna be yourself. You're, you're overcoming your difficulty with prioritization, right? Step Making by making probably a physical list or a virtual
list. We all held all the lists, because we all have a lot of a lot of lists,
right? And like, I think we've joked before on the podcast about like, you need to write down the smallest doable increment. Yeah. Because like the dopamine that you get when you check off one tiny increment. Yeah, right. It's like, I'm gonna do a short application this year, like my first step is going to be find out what the deadline is. And then once I know that, I get a check mark, right? And then like, like, reset my password, because I've obviously forgotten it that I get a check mark for for doing that, right. Smallest doable, yeah, increment, like that's a way to make the task attractive, because we've given ourselves many more finishing points, right. So instead of like, you either have the short application completed, or your application has not started, and in between, there's nothing, it's just a process that you're going to see yourself in because you can't manage the steps. So writing this steps down, gives you a little bit of control over the situation sometimes like, the last time I did a short application, I sat down and I like one of my tasks was figure out what the tasks are. Yeah. And then with all the documents and figuring out exactly what I was going to have to produce gave me a much better sense of how much work it was going to take me. Exactly.
And I think that that's the other thing is that we have time blindness. And so we don't actually know how long things should take. I hate it. How long did that take? You? I literally could not tell you? I don't know, right? Like I do not know. But there are tasks that I know like in writing, right? Like I know about how long it takes me to write 1000 words, because I've done it so many times that I'm like, That should take me if it's something that I know really well, about 45 minutes. So now, if I know that there's going to be a lot of writing, and then I can break it down. And this is this will take me 45 minutes. And so I know that I can sit and write something for 45 minutes. So that also is like this is something so it's again, that negotiation, this isn't something that I'm super interested in. Right? Like if it's something I'm really interested in want to write about, then I can sit like time blindness for hours time flies away. But I know I can at least sit here for 45 Yeah, how do I break those five minute chunks? Yeah, that then I get up, I do something else I you know, like you do go practice piano, do I have a 45 minute window just before I go to swim team or like, you know, I'll do 45 minutes just before I eat, then I'll get up, I'll eat. I'll scroll Facebook while I eat. And then I can have another 45 minutes afterwards. And if I do that over the space of two weeks, then I'll be able to write the amount of words that I need to write, give or take some Yeah, and the
way that you you've made that more attractive for yourself there is if you're not like actually really excited about it, there is something in there that you get to be proud of you know that it only takes you 45 minutes to produce. Now some words, not everybody can do that. Exactly. Something like you don't want to sit down and write the whole thing and you having trouble. You're like, I'm going to flex my eye. It's like I can do cartwheels on both sides, right? You want to watch me cartwheels on both sides, because I know that right? You're like, I'm just gonna write 1000 words in 45 minutes, because I'm good at that. And I feel good about myself when I do the thing that I'm good at. Right. Yeah, irrespective of the content of that, right. Irrespective, like you saying, like, most people would do this more programmatically and they block off time and I'm a bad person, you just like not listen, I'll do it in five minutes at a time. And then that's okay for you. Right? So you've made it, they're both less aversive and also gives you is interesting for you. It's interesting for you to look at my fancy skill I have if I can produce 1000 words of finished prose in 45 minutes. You feel good, you enjoy that activity and the accomplishment of that activity, even if the project itself is not something you have a burning desire to write about constantly. Yeah, exactly. Taking something that might have been boring. And you have found a way to do it programmatically so that you're not stuck at the last minute. Freaking out. Yeah, right. Or you can you could be Yeah, so something I struggle with generally is I know how to do scholarly research. I do that right. And starting a new project is exciting and Scary, it's exciting ideas, write a lot of ideas, stuff. But then I have to make a plan about how I'm going to get from the start to the end. And I know that I have to make a plan. But it's so anxiety provoking for me with every new project is what I have to confront. In the beginning. It's like, I actually don't know enough about this, I need to do more research. And I loved doing the research. But I hate having to figure out like the depths of my own ignorance first and kind of make up progress. Like to make a sort of process for that to say, like, these are the fields I sort of need to read up on. And this is the schedule I should give myself for that. And I know I put off doing projects that I'm very well able to do just because that first step where I'm confronted by my own ignorance, and the difficulty of making a plan, because every writing project or every research project needs a new plan. Every time it's not the same plan. Every time it needs a plan. I'm like, bah, I don't care. So I found a way to make myself do that. Really, and it's, yeah, actually, this will not surprise you, when I tell you what it is. Now my turn it into a teachable moment. And I bring my grad student comes in to help me right, like they're my grad student, Kelly's got a gra with me. So she's being paid for this. But she comes in, I'm like, This is what we're gonna do. This is how you're helping me with my research today. You're going to sit here and I'm going to teach you how I'm going to go from this call for papers to my initial idea to a research plan.
Yeah, right. That's
what we did. Last week, we sat down and I got than they should get like upset like, dude, immediately do something. Oh, no, you're doing plenty because I would not be doing any of this. You're not sitting here. Yeah. And like, because she's writing a PhD as well. Actually. I'm teaching her yeah,
you're modeling? Yeah, you're modeling. She
doesn't know how to do this. And I do know how to do this. But the problem is, I won't do it. Right. Until I can turn it into teaching, because I love teaching. Right? Yeah. And now, it's turned away from a referendum on my incapacity to just write this project from start to finish and turn it into pedagogy. Yeah, right. So it's not about me anymore. It's about can I model for my grad students how this process goes, and it dissenters my own ego insecurities enough, but to get it done? Yeah. So it's,
and that's what they I mean, that is fairly standard for like, just general, like, parallel play. Right? Like, what, and we've talked about this before, right? Like, you sit there and right, I sit there and right. We're gonna sit here and write together like, you're bringing somebody else in like, I mean, yeah, I will.
I will. That's a body doubling strategy. I have to turn a planning activity into not a planning activity, you're now teaching activity, because I do not have a virgin's,
well, this is what you're doing making it into a game, right? Like,
yeah, I've gamified it right, I've found a way to make it more interesting than scary, right? And that I really am invested in teaching people things so that I will do something difficult in my own life. If while I'm doing that I am teaching somebody else. process. Yeah, that's, that's one of the ways that I tried to goose I love that though. Yeah, it works for me, like I'd like Oh, my God, or like, I just like to talk about my ideas with people. And then I write stuff down. Because sometimes it's easier for me to get out of my very judgmental brain. If I'm saying things to a human being right. So having a real audience for stuff makes something interesting. To me, right? writing a paper that is like, Well, when I get this done, I'll think about what journal I want to submit it to, is not interesting, because there's no stakes and no people, it's something I do or don't do. And nobody cares, like until it either gets published or it doesn't. And so that's one of the reasons I like writing when people invite me, because now it's the logic already. Right. I know what the point of the writing is, I know what the audience is. Usually, I'm in contact with the editor fairly frequently. It makes it more social. It allows me to imagine a real audience and by learning something social. So this one's not so much pedagogical, but that there is a community, which is why like tweeting about my research, yeah, to you, because it reminds me that people are interested in it. And when there are people involved in they're interested in it, then it is easier for me to stay motivated. Right? The writing is always important. It's always important. But is it interesting, right? Yes, I make more interesting by involving people, and then I get interested. So that's true. My strategy is one I turn a difficult, unpleasant ego destroying task into not a referendum on myself, but I turn it into a pedagogical opportunity to teach somebody something. And another way is I tried to find ways to create a real sense of audience and interaction in the earliest stages where it's like you're all alone on your own in the ivory tower, like chewing on pencils, and you wait for a finished product to come out. That's never gonna happen for me. I can't write quietly, if you will. I can't. The whole thing has to be public. From the start there. There has to be a reason it's not that I need a deadline, I need an audience that is more than your reticle. And the project becomes interesting to me again, right?
Because you're seeing it through the interest of other people, too. Right? Like it's through that lens. And I think there is something to also be said, I mean, we are you No introvert or extrovert. We are social animals. And we do get, you know, again, we're always after that dopamine. Yep. Right. And so this, these are all ways that we activate the dopamine, right? Yes, somebody answered somebody connected. Somebody suggested something, somebody is like, Oh, that's so cool. Somebody but but even just being, you know, it's connecting with someone as well over whatever is dopamine, right? Like, I'm not alone. And like you said, like, there could be particularly in academia can be very isolating in the humanities. And that to be able to have those social connections, you know, yes, it makes it interesting. And, and also, like I said, I think because it activates our dopamine that our, you know, we don't produce enough of, and so how do we make sure that like, basically, what we're saying is, how do we make sure that everything that we're trying to do either ignites our dopamine receptors, or at least sets us up? Right, like, listening to the podcast makes me happy dopamine, right, talking to other people about this makes me happy don't remain. And so it's sort of an and again, I'm to be okay with the fact that, you know, it's diabetics don't feel bad about well, they might eat but like, don't feel bad about not producing insulin. And so they have strategies and ways to produce insulin, which, you know, are not are not pleasant. They're not fun. But like, for whatever reason, for us, our brain is not being able to commit dopamine is, again, a personal failure on my part, like, if I just thought harder, my brain would just all of a sudden start creating dopamine. And so if I could
be more responsible, less attention seeking, right? So like, like, there are, there are ways in which it's very easy in my darker moments for me to take these strategies that I've developed to make a project more challenging, interesting, novel and urgent, where I'm like, You are all over Twitter, talking about your research, because you can't sit still. And just think things by yourself. You're seeking attention all the time, right? Like, there's a way in which like, if I was a real scholar, I'd be able to do my scholarship without needing to, like, constantly tweet out little chunks of it or get enraged about a particular source online or share 50 links or record a podcast about it, right, like, but I can't. So yeah, I can't show up, right. I can't do my scholarship quietly. I just can't right now. And it's very easy for me to judge myself about that. But I try not to write like similarly with having to turn something into teaching, right? I sort of feel like, Oh, I'm, you know, paying this grad student, like decent money to help me with my research. And most people would be like, Yeah, send your RA to the library, like, do these kinds of things. I'm like, No, I just need you to sit here. And I'm going to explain to you what I'm trying to do. But it feels like Oh, I am paying someone to listen to me monologue about stuff, because I don't have any real friends or an ability to work by myself. But the thing is, I get the work done easily, right? easily that way. So that's the trick is like finding the ways that that work for you to make a task, right? These these things are important that I'm trying to do, right, I want to teach well, in class, so I'm like, I should do more prep, I should do this, I should do that. I should do the other because that will like because it's important. It's important. It's important, right? But I can't do some of those things. And so I've developed a series of things to make it possible, like the group notes and stuff. So like, don't ask me for my lecture notes. I don't have any or like, students doing case studies is pedagogical and stuff. Because what I really love is going in the classroom and riffing on things, helps, and I make great activities. So I've had to build a classroom, where whatever I have to do when I'm teaching is interesting, and challenging, and novel, like I love that sort of improv style of teaching. Some people find that terrifying. Yes. Oh, yeah. Like, I find being over prepared, so incredibly boring to produce, over preparation and even more boring to then enact it. Like, it is not a judgement. I don't I'm not saying that your way of teaching is boring, but that I become so an unbearably bored. I try to do it like that, that I can't do it. Right. So like that's another self accommodation is thinking like, don't try to find ways to do a task the way that everybody else does it right. Sometimes you can accomplish a goal in the classroom or in writing or in your workplace. You can accomplish that goal not by trying to find a way to force yourself to do it the same way everybody else does. That finding a way If that works for you, right?
Like, it's like that with my writing, right? Like I've been on, right? And every single piece of writing advice you will ever find everywhere. Right, have a steady writing practice, right for 45 minutes every day, you know, there is I don't want to write. And so I don't mean God writer, and there are days where I will do nothing but write and time will fall away, and I will end up with 10,000 words, or 15,000 words, and it'll just come out of pouring out of me, you know, and, you know, for a long time, I would beat myself up over that, like, I must be a bad writer. Or this is why I'm not a better writer, I guess I don't ever think I was a bit of bad writer. So like, I can write, I can do this. Or why not a better writer, right. I'm not a better writer, because I don't do all of these things that, like, all the experts say I should do. So like to so then it's like, okay, well, that's fine. And, and, you know, like, it's, it's, and that's it right? Like, I don't, you know, I don't want people in the kitchen with me, because I don't cook like everybody else cooks. Right, right. And I don't need that. I don't need I don't need you to tell me how I should be
done, buddy. Get in the kitchen. So you don't boil the pots dry? You just need to check in for safety reasons. Occasionally. Right? Yeah.
Well, I'm also like, so it's like, it's funny. So Cassie, like my daughter? What she does, like her motivation. And I think this is funny. You know, you're you're tweeting and I've I'm writing a academic Twitter kind of post mortem that I'm hoping will be in the Chronicle. And like, all of those things that everyone said about us way at the beginning of Twitter about how much time we were wasting and how useless it was and how all of that and like, basically, shockingly, everyone that we made friends with and were successful on Twitter all were neurodiverse.
Yeah.
All of us. It was amazing. But like, but now for my daughter, if she wants if she's motivated to do something, like she'll stream it. Yeah, right. Like, she'll straight Okay, well, I need to do this thing, or I want to do this thing, but I'm not really motivated. Okay, well, I haven't live streamed in a while. So I'll livestream it. Right, a live stream my, my baking of cookies, I will live stream my putting together of Lego. You know, and I'm like, sure, you know, like, what am I gonna say I've like I have, I have a billion tweets of like, my whole life for the past 50 years leading your research project and whatever. I'm live tweeting every single facet of my life, right, like,
that's another thing that I do to eshowe is thinking about the grading, I always tell my students like you can do this thing in, there's a lot, there's 40 of them, it's probably gonna take me two weeks. To get through them. I generally don't post the grades until I get all of them done. But if you want to graded right now, come to my office. I will grade it in front of you. Now, some people are terrified by that too. But I'm like this, like, say about my office hours. If you come and sit and look me in the eyes, and you're right here, I will do anything. Right. Yeah, as long as you're sitting if you leave me the form, and then leave, I'm not going to fill it out. If you don't fill it out. I'll hand it back to you. Right? Yeah. And I always joke. It's like the world's most boring Twitch stream, right? Because watch braid, right? Yeah. But it's true. It's like you could come and sit in my office, whatever you need me to do. I will do for you. Some people don't like to be surveilled. While they're doing that. But I'm like, No, I need the accountability. If you're here, I will grade it for you. Right? That's a sort of
like, especially the things that we don't necessarily want to do. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Yep. It was a form and you're like, I never want to see this again. And so I'm gonna put it down. But if I get it done, then I never have to see it again to
if 40 Students came one after the other two in my office, I would grade 40 papers in one sitting, I wouldn't it wouldn't be a problem, right? But sitting by myself and trying to make myself do it is is much harder, right. So like, that's another kind of like, but I make it challenging. And urgent, then right? I was like, this student is sitting here like, I'm gonna get it done. Like there's no president, like, just let's talk about some stuff for five more minutes before I start grading your paper. I want to student it just doesn't even occur to me, right? I just yeah, get the task done. Because it's now again, interesting. I've been tricked myself into it. I've made it interesting. And it's the work that I'm doing then is much less burdensome to me than the same work. But yeah, but I'm not having to exert any executive function to force myself to do it. Yeah. Because it's become interesting, and it's not a problem. And now my focus, right, not a problem. So another one that I do, I was thinking about my writing style. I don't know did I tell you guys I posted it on Twitter about that, like, that awful feedback on my master's paper? I got did we don't know. Or
maybe we have but it was so long ago that it's like Yeah,
I posted it on Twitter, but I was like, okay, sent to my therapist ever. I'm like, you know, you're looking for the original scene of the trauma. Like you don't usually have textual evidence for it. But here it is. This teacher had written on one of my response papers in a theory class, of course, it was a theory class was like, you know, problems just with precision AMI, which sounds pretty good, but then it went on to like, you know, you have to deal with this. Because if you want to continue in academic writing, this is unacceptable. I'm sure. Maybe because you're smart. This is the beginning of an insult. Maybe because you're smart. Your other instructors thought that you meant to be clear. Right, but you're not sometimes up times up.
Well call
times up and oh, there you go. Can't Coast I would have quit.
I would have been like, Okay, well, no, I wouldn't have I would have been like, fuck you. I'm going to become the best academic ever. Nevermind. I don't know what I'm thinking after you cried for a long time. Oh, yeah. No, after I cried forever, like, yeah,
yeah. So I was like, Oh, wow. Because like, what people had flagged, you know, and what that that one remark was emblematic of was this idea that it was all style and no substance. Yeah, right. But the way that I write that I continue to write is I use wildly extravagant metaphors. I use the personal pronoun, I quote The Beastie Boys. I have like, a million tweet streams and academic paper kind of thing. And it feels like showing all right, but the literary it's your voice. Dig deep into right now is I'm using conceits. Right, a conceit is a far flung or extravagant extended metaphor. That is a means of moving into a topic by it's an intellectual exercise, where to make the extended metaphor work requires an awful lot of cognition. Right? So yeah, it looks like I'm adding, like the bells and whistles on top when I should just be focused on substance, right. But like, I had this idea, now I want to write a paper, using only Beastie Boys lyrics from their 1990 song being boring is subject headings in this paper on ADHD writing that I'm doing. And I was like, anyway, I like this, because I spent 45 minutes on a deep dive into the Pet Shop Boys, and the sources for various song lyrics, and this, that and the other. And I thought, why are you doing this when you could be researching critical disability studies? And I thought, Aha, because I need to make this interesting. Yeah. Yeah, right. I could do I will do all the research. But I'm going to do all that research now. Because I'm real anxious about how am I going to make this work in all my things that are song lyrics, right? So I doubled down on the difficulty level, not to show off, but because if I don't, I'm not going to write a goddamn thing. Right? Or I will write 10 million words, right. So this focus is this kind of conceit. This literary conceit focuses me by producing a constraint and opportunity simultaneously. And I thought, Oh, shit, that's how I always write. I start from like, a really bizarre mental image, or a song lyric or a metaphor. That doesn't make sense. I'm like, How can I make this metaphor about hippies go through the entire paper about John Perry Barlow is Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace. And it's enough of like a brain warm up, that it makes it possible for me to organize myself around the more like, less interesting tasks of doing a literature review and stuff, right. So I've often like been made to feel as if my I'm showing off with my writing style, right that I am focusing on showing off stylistically, in a way that would seem to produce a less of a focus on the content of it. But the fact of the matter is, if I don't write like that, I don't write it all. Don't write it or get it don't write it all. So it may be true for neurotypical people that they're really, really very much focused on getting the ducks lined up first, right? I'm going to do the literature review. And then I'm going to think about a hypothesis. And then from that, I'm gonna like test a theory and then I'm gonna find some textual evidence and I'm gonna write that and like, oh, you know, I can't write funny metaphors like you need right? But like, I won't do those other things. If I don't start an insight the wild metaphors come to me first. Yeah, right. Well
yeah, and that's and that's exactly it. Like I'm thinking too about like, I will do the minimal amount of research get an idea write about it, and then go research it to see like, was I right? Was I wrong? What was my instinct and it's not in the way that it's like, I only want research that's going to support my conclusion. It's more just like no I need to write the all this stuff out get clear on where I am. Yep. And then right go with it and see how this can all enhance and sharp enhance sharpen whatever however you want to put it but it's just like, you know, my instinct is telling me to do the to go this way. And you say instinct, but like this kind comes from years of experience in training and our own research in our teaching, right? Like this doesn't come out of thin air, like the, you know, the 10,000 hours of practice, we've put those hours in. Yeah, right, we have put those hours in, to be able to get to a well know what our working style is, but also be be able to trust that work in style. And that can be I think that that would be really frustrating for somebody younger, somebody who's just starting out somebody who doesn't have the sort of 10,000 hours 10,000 100,000 or
somebody who's just reading the productivity books that are like, write your dissertation, 15 minutes a day, right? Like, read a bunch of stuff and get some ideas and like, what am I supposed to suppress all my ideas? Before I get to that? Yeah, that part, right, like, so your process that you're describing to is slightly different from mine, but it's doing the same work, right, is that I know, you have 5 million ideas simultaneously to and you do all of this prewriting are people like holy shit, that's a lot of words. I could never, like, that's a lot of wasted time. But you're like, No, because you will go in 10,000 different directions. Unless you get clear with yourself with a lot of free writing. First, you talk yourself into or out of a focus, right?
Yeah. Or I'll do the research. It'll be like, Ooh, you know, like, I couldn't, I never was able to work in the library. I was like, go to the library to work. I'm like, there's too many books here. It's so distracting. Oh, in this section, like, it doesn't matter what section I sit in, oh, architecture books.
Books, like, Oh, look at the typography of the map books where it was published in 1965. I'm kind of interested, there's only publishers, let's go look at this, right. Yeah,
exactly. Or like, or even your like, even like, what are they researching? What are they writing about over there? Without really interesting with a right, what what class that is? Can I take that class as a minor, or maybe as a as an elective course? Because like, it really looks over their course also looks like it's really injured, like, like libraries who just, yeah, everything is just shinier. And so you get like, you know, I'll I I don't mind having like, and again, I've come this set this about myself, and I've spoken about it before, I'm okay with having 10 that have been started 10,000 different projects, and only having two of them stick. Because unless on my way through those other 998,000 Row projects, it would be zero projects, because I need to, like you said, work all of that out of my system. Get clear on what I really want to say, and what I really am interested in doing. Yep. And then, you know, move on to like, Okay, now. Yeah, now I can like
doing and what I'm doing is we're trying to find a way to orient ourselves to our research, so that the thing that we have to do is actually the most interesting thing in front of us all the time. Yeah, right. Yeah. Because we know that if our brain gets interested in something different, there is not a thing in the world we can do to make it not be more interested in the books on your show, right? So we have to find a way to get so interested in what we're doing that it's impossible for us to do anything else we need to activate the hyper focus and the like, the tendency to move towards the shiny thing right and and again, it's challenge urgency, interest and novelty. I tend to switch research areas every three or four years I come back to very similar themes but I like now I'm critical disability studies. Now I'm studying the physiology they had right like now I'm like doing this other thing Oh, I'm gonna think about AI now is like I guess that's what it now I'm overriding studies scholar, okay, great. People are like God, like you're just frittering away your energy, you could become a real expert, like, you could go deeper. And I feel like no, but I don't. Because now I'm bored, right? I need to be 90% underwater and confused constantly. Because that's what motivates me to learn and to write. And when that sort of the proportion of novelty and the stuff that I'm reading, once that starts to go down, I'm really not that interested. anymore. I'm like this. I know this. I know this. I know, I don't have the urgent giant questions that are so confusing to me that I need to like read 100 books.
And if everybody's just keep saying the same thing over and over again, at a certain point, I'm just like, okay, like, why do I need to read all of this, we're all on the same page. And I'm either okay with that page or not. But like, let's just go, right, like, let's just go forward from here. Like, I don't, you know, you are and maybe it's also because I am not technically an academic anymore, that like the, the publications and outlets that I write for are not looking for the same level of verbal and peer reviewed. Yeah, I don't need to do a whole lit review. And so like, that's been really liberating for me, because I've been able to a write in a voice that's more authentic to me, but also write and research in a style that is, right where it's like, you know, they don't need the most exhaustive. Right, somebody else has done that. I'll point to it. Yeah. It's been done. You But at this point, you don't want me to prove that I did it too. Right? Like, I don't like it. And I like I guess that's the another neurodivergent thing. Like, at least in our house, like, Why do I have to do this thing that someone else has already done better?
Yeah. Right, like deciding, you know,
yeah, can I do like, Why? Why are you making like, you know, we, we all get annoyed because you know, all the memes of there's two people in the house, the person who the person who loads the dishwasher and the person who knows how to load the dishwasher properly. You know, that's my husband. So he's like, Why does anyone ever load the dishwasher? And I'm like, because you just redo it? And why should I waste my time? Putting this stuff in the dishwasher? If you're just gonna redo it all anyway? Like, yeah, so, but but I feel that way, sometimes about research. In the flip side, it's like, Why do I have to do this? Why do I have to write this when this person already did
it? Yeah.
I could. And I'm okay with that. Right. Like we all have, you know,
self knowledge that you're, you're acting there and self acceptance, and you're happy writing genres that you're writing and and your readers are happy about that, too? Like, why would you still be chasing this goal of succeeding in a publication venue that a nobody reads? And B, you don't enjoy writing, when you don't have to write wouldn't be like, oh, you know, academic writing? defeatable? You're like, Nah, fam, I'm not interested. Right? So the examples we're using, like you, and I come from an academic context, because we're in an academic context, but like, there are ways that people activate this in their lives, a lot of neurodivergent people are serial entrepreneurs, right? Because they have something right. And they thrive in that kind of unknowingness, which is great. So they're always looking for novelty and challenge, right? Some people like lots of ideas in Yeah, lots of ideas. And some people like to work in sort of like dangerous and urgent environments, like you want to be an emergency room nurse, right? means that it's going to be different all the time, and it's life or death. And there's no way you're gonna get bored in that, right, some people who are a little bit more scattered or like, yeah, you know, I need something that repeats every day in exactly the same way so that I can listen to the seven radio stations in my head, but not screw up my work. You know, some people just want to be each driver to not be terrified all the time about stuff, right? And, and that's okay, these are all ways of finding a way into your paid employment that is going to suit your neurological needs, right? Not trying to change yourself to fit somebody else's way of doing things. Right. And I think that can be be really powerful. But we have to stop reading other people's how to be more productive books, right? Because they all assume you're starting from a neurotypical position. And since so many of the things that we struggle with, are subjected to the moralizing judgments of others, we tend to take that on very strongly as well. And feel a very strong desire to achieve what we're being told we're lacking, right? Yeah, but it does not. We have to do those processes. Right. Yeah. It doesn't mean we have to do those processes. Like I like drawing
assesses. Yeah, and I think that this is also I'm just thinking about, like, there's only one the the advice our kids and students get is there's only one right way to do school. Right? There's no and there's only one right way to do University. Whereas I'm, you know, I'm starting to have these conversations with both my kids where it's like, you know, part time is not the end of the world. That's right. Yep. Right. Like, maybe not a full course load immediately. Maybe like, and again, I'm really proud of of my daughter, she's going to you know, she knows she's not ready to go away to university yet. So she's staying to do community college. Because she's like, I need to still I can't you know, cognitive load, I'm going to be dealing with this whole new environment, I don't also need to be living with worried about new roommates and new environment and new cities navigate and you know, new everything. But also, you know, but also it's like, do we need to do five courses? And everybody's like, no, they have to do everybody should do 15 credits, so they graduate on time? Or like, maybe that's not the best advice, maybe we're getting, you know, like that, that's, you know, maybe 15 maybe moving away is too much. And maybe 15 credits is also too much and that's okay. Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah,
I mean, this is, this is very true, right? That, that you have to find a way that's going to work for you. Right, and there shouldn't be a judgement about that. And, you know, some of us thrive by completely changing our environment for things and some of us don't.
That's me. Like, I get itchy feet and I move every five freakin years. Apparently my
sister right, my sister does that, too. It's like, I'm bored. I'm going to change jobs and also move to a different city right? I'm like, okay, awesome, but not handle it. I take all the risks inside my own head. I don't I move around and suddenly we're in it don't move around elsewhere. Right, but so I want to come back to the Dodson article that I was reading about. Yeah, like the big motivation. So I was I sent this to you, maybe we can put it in the show notes or something. Okay, that's
the one he said to me. Okay. Yeah. So
so he indicates like how the rest of the world functions, right regards to motivation. And the first one is like, a neurotypical people use three different factors to decide what to do, how to get started and stick with it. Okay, so the first way is the concept of importance, which is they think it should get done. I know what's important and has no impact on whether I can do it or not. Right. The second thing is the concept of secondary importance, which is to say, quote, they are motivated by the fact that their parents, teacher, boss, or someone they respect, thinks the task is task is important to tackle and to complete again, I can be aware of those things. Oh my God, my chair really wants me to finish this goddamn CV. I already have a CV but I have to reformat it entirely for our external assessment review for accreditation, which means I have to take my 10 page CD and like completely retype it in a stupid Microsoft Word format. I know it's important. I just I want to kill myself, I cannot bring myself to do
it. It depending on on like the type of neuro divergence, that can also just be oppositional defiance, right? Like, oh, this is important. Is it with me show you what's important? Well,
there's that or we could reframe it in a different way to write so there's the concept of what is termed demand avoidance, right, pathological demand avoidance, which is, you if you ask me to do too many things, I'm just gonna put a bucket over my head and yellow really loudly to I can't hear you anymore. Right? Where there's a scholar, oh, God, what is there and Devon price, Devin price says instead what if pathological demand avoidance is just we could reframe that as a personal drive for autonomy, right? You are not the boss of me, I will get things done. But you cannot tell me how. Okay, right. So the third, the first thing was, it's important. The second thing was people I care about think it's important. Again, I know these things, that does not motivate me to work, when I go to get my brain to go, my brain doesn't care, like the part of my brain does tasks doesn't care. The part of my brain that is my personality really cares. A lot of mine come on brain, and I'm like kicking it, nothing's happening. Alright, so the third thing that motivates neurotypical people is the concept of rewards for doing a task and the consequences or punishment for not doing it again, I know all these things. I know, I'm like, gonna miss the reimbursement deadline, I'm going to be out however many 1000s of dollars, because I just didn't manage to get it done. I will be acutely aware of that for many months before the deadline passed. And then when the deadline passes, I will be like, Yep, I knew about that. Why am I like this? And they'll hate myself for a while. Right? So we are probably and our listeners are probably quite familiar with people putting those arguments on us. Right? They'll be like, listen, just do it. It's really important. Right? You know, you have to fill out your, your, whatever materials to submit to the place because like otherwise, like you're not going to be able to be a swim coach, or whatever it happens to be. Yeah, it's really important. And you're like, I know, and then you don't do it. So they don't get that it's really important. Well, they might say like, you know, your kids are going to be really disappointed if you don't get these permission slips in, because they're going to miss the trip. And you're like, I know, and I feel terrible. And then like husband, like, text me two hours later, did you do the thing? And I'm like back No, it Yeah, no, I didn't, right. Yeah.
My daughter is on me all the time. She's like, did you call the school? And I'm like, oh, god dammit. Yeah. Yeah. Like what you were saying about the students standing there. So you'll grade their papers. She now stands in front of me and make sure I call the school and I'm like, I have one. But
listen, sometimes I will, like text him. He'll be somewhere else in the house. And I'm like, I know what I'm doing. This is a big decision. He's like, what I'm like, I'm telling you right now. I need to be in the shower in the next 30 minutes. And I need you to make sure that happens. Yeah. And he's like, Are you sure? And I'm like, Yes, yeah. And then 20 minutes will go by and he'll text me like, are you in the shower? And I'm like, almost 25 minutes go by. He's like, are you in the shower? I'm like, not yet. And then he'll come upstairs. Yeah, and then he'll start poking me. Yep, he's trying to take my socks off. Or he like grabbed my butt and stuff, like just annoyed me that it's far less difficult to just get in the shower, then deal with him harassing you. Alright, so the concept of like, rewards or punishments, like it doesn't work. I'll tell myself in 30 minutes. My husband's gonna come up here. And he's gonna start poking me.
That's not no, that's not it happen for that to hit. Well,
I'm sure our listeners have had this to where they're like, I know what's important and I can't do it and like people that I respect will think badly of me if I don't do it, and I somehow can't do it. I know that there will be like a negative consequence to He, if I don't do my library cards gonna get canceled, like, and you still don't do it right. So well and
and I think there's also the I don't know how motivating punishment is when you're getting into the mode of like the sort of self loathing where it's like, well, clearly I deserve this punishment. Yeah. Right, like a self fulfilling prophecy prophecy, but at the same time internalized it so much that it's like, yeah, the punishment actually isn't that much of a threat that's probably what I deserve anyways. So yeah,
yeah, I mean like there's that that sort of like what do they call like a kind of hijack, there's a psychological term for this I can't remember right now, but sometimes my husband will be legitimately mad at me, like we talked about the meat dishes or going grocery shopping or whatever it was. And I meant to do it. And I felt bad the whole time that it wasn't doing it. And then he was like, and I'm angry with you. And then I got so upset about it, because I was even angry or with myself that he winds up having to comfort me about something that I've done that has inconvenienced him. And that's not right. No, no, like, not helped, it would be done. But it doesn't help. Right. So in this two parter, we have talked about how to get things done by removing the simple barriers that are sensory or organizational or executive function to make things not impossible to start. And then the two other ways of getting things done, involve making it less aversive ways we have to trick ourselves into not hating the task so much. And then the other thing is, like, more on the more positive side, like what are the tricks that we have enacted to actually make the task more fun? Or more interesting to do? And I like those the best like for me, I absolutely have to get the simple barriers controlled or I won't start, right, yeah. But it's been really exciting for me, and I hope it has been for you. And I hope it will be for our listeners to to think about, like, what are the ways of doing this, that I would actually really enjoy such that I would choose to do this activity instead of everything else, right. And to make a task, not something that I'm dragging myself through by sheer force of willpower, but something that I'm legitimately so excited about that I'm going to forget to eat is a miracle. Because a miracle. And I wish that for all of us that we know ourselves enough to begin to figure out what would make us happy and get us motivated, not because it's important, or somebody is going to be disappointed in you or because there's going to be a reward or a punishment. But because we're using that superpower in our brains, which is that once we get interested in something, we can't stop ourselves from doing it, right. You want is for all of us to spend more time thinking about what would make this more interesting for me so that I would do it with a smile on my face. Ya
know, I like that a lot. Or, you know, what are the things? What are the things that do bring a smile to your face to write one of the things that I asked my, my portfolio? Students, the grad students who are doing the portfolio is I actually have them do have I talked about this before, I don't do a two by two square. And it doesn't matter which axis you put what on and it's one of the accesses is good at not good at and the other axis is love and hate
wound love. Because
they've never thought and they're like So like most of it makes sense. Except for the good at and hate. Yeah, right and or dislike or whatever word you want to use. And I always use the my example that I always use is technical writing. And that's why trained to do when I was an undergraduate student, I had worked terms in technical writing. I was pretty good at it. I'm a good writer. I can do formulaic, so I forget hated it.
Yo, hey, through your own hands every time you sit down.
Exactly. And so like what I what I'm what I tell my students, which I think is really, that never occurred to them before. But like, just because you're good at something doesn't mean you have to do it. Yeah. Right. Like, if if you are miserable doing technical writing, and then don't do it, write it like you are particularly these are highly privileged or Georgetown students. I mean, you are paying a lot of money to do a Georgetown degree so that you can do the job that you want to do and open those doors. Right. If I had to, because things were dire, I would go back to technical writing, because it did pay me and I know I could do it. And you know, I'd get the bills paid and all that. But legend. Yeah, it would be urgent, right in that sort of sense. But I mean, I now have I've worked very hard, so that I don't have to do the thing that I don't like to do, but that I'm good at. Yeah, that's right. And that I am focusing on the things that I love and that I'm good at, or even the stuff that I love that I'm not so good at because that's the other thing you could love to do something and not be good at it yet. Yep. Right. And so are you going to look for opportunities where you get to practice, or at least engage in that activity to like, grow that, you know, and so it's thinking about, you know, it's it's the deficit mentality versus the you know, because in a lot of cases Is that we approach with disability? And neuro divergence is the deficit mentality, right? All the things we cannot do, right? All the goals, we can't do all the things, we're not good at all the things we struggle with. And then, you know, how do we I think one big thing is turning that around and like with my writing, right, like, here's the thing that I am really good at. I can write 1000 words in 45 minutes. Yeah. Right. And, yeah, it's weird. And, and yeah, it's like, not like, oh, anybody else writes, but this is what I do. Right? And I'm gonna, I'm gonna lean into that. And so to be able to lead into those things, finding those things that you want to do more than anything else, and figuring out well, how do I make that? What it is
I do? So this is an instance right here, the of, of crip wisdom, I've been doing a lot of reading in theories of, of teaching and learning, and pedagogy and really leaning into the question of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, right? So, putting grades on things is extrinsic motivation, right? It sort of says, you have to do this or this bad or good thing will happen, right? versus intrinsic motivation, which is we would say, like Curiosity lit, your work, right? Like I want to do, I come to class, not because there are marks for participation that I will lose if I don't come to class, but I come to class because I want to know what happens next. Right? So that distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation and how it impacts the depth and sophistication and nuance and retention of learning that happens is exactly how neurodivergent people operate all the time. If I'm not interested, I can't do it. Yeah, right. And so what we're really trying to build in the classroom is how do we foster intrinsic motivation because with most students, extrinsic motivation works pretty well. But it impoverished is the learning experience. Yeah, impoverishes, like not just the experience, but the depth of their learning and their retention of the material. And their sense of themselves don't?
Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say, their sense of themselves as people because don't even get me started about how grades become, it's intrinsically tied up with their identity. And they're like, unable to, like, we can say,
we can say grades become enmeshed in people mash, yes. Yeah, extrinsic motivator, right. And so I, I would say, in universities, we're only really tuning in right now to the kind of danger of the extrinsic motivation model in terms of student outcomes, right. But if you're just asked, ADHD peers, right, for whom extrinsic motivators do not work, great. Our special interests work because we're intrinsically motivated. Our knowledge is encyclopedic and deep and practical and esoteric because we're intrinsically motivated, because that's the only way we can get anything done. And now that's a skill that we're trying to remember how to foster in other people, because we've just gone to such a heavy compliance and extrinsic motivator model, through most cultural practices that were like, the normies are just discovering that if you're interested in something, you'll learn it better or more like, come sit by me get oh, yeah,
seriously. I'm like, really? That's, that's well, so Friend, friend of mine, Josh Aylor. He's actually writing a book right now or has finished writing, it's coming out soon. About, again, the damage that grades cause. And like, What the what they mean, and how they Yeah, so I'm really excited about that. But But yeah, I mean, that's. So that's actually the next time we speak, because I'm not going to say next week or next. But next episode, we I again, I thought of you and I thought of this podcast, because we had a presentation that talks about attention, and communication. Yep. And the idea of budgeted attention, right. And I'm sort of like, yeah, that's what ag people but I want to talk about that next time because I got to finish reading the book.
And write down the name that you remember the name of the book? No,
no, I haven't already. It's right next to me being present by Janine W. Turner. She's a faculty at she's faculty at Georgetown, she actually came and spoke to the our staff about these concepts and how they relate to teaching and learning. And I thought it was I actually thought that is conceptually which I want to talk about it with you is really interesting. And it's a different. So it's it's not a soft, hard framework. It's not a surprising framework, but it's a framework that is I think, a different way to get at attention. And like what we mean and how it and how it should work. But again, it's one of those if you had just asked us,
right, right. The knowledge was here the whole time. It's just you're not listening to the prophets, in particular is
what struck me again, this is like we're going into the next episode here, but But what struck me is that she's she's a communications much like you and that what struck her and what what's framed a lot of her research has been that she has a child who is hard of hearing. Mm hmm. not complete. And so just thinking about, they didn't care anyways. But he was talking about that I just was so it was so striking. Or she said the, my, my disabled child basically taught me more about communication than anything else. And I did like, because we had just talked about crypto knowledge. And then we got into that, and I was just like, Oh, my God, like, what is wrong? Like, you can come in here and say that, and yet, you have to then do all of this studying of the case. Yeah, justify the particular insight. Like so. Anyways, it's not it's, you know, again, they don't give away and level. No, but also just like, it was like I yeah, I'm not gonna give it away. But like, it's been really interesting, since we've had that episode and all of these other connections that I've been making about, right, like you said, grades or, you know, attention and how we how we like I've never been really able to pay attention, like or or pay attention to the right things.
Or what other people good side is important. Yeah.
It has always been budgeted.
So listen, I have to budget my attention to go to a camp. No, yes.
And I have to budget my attention to go to a faculty consultation. Yeah, that's all right. It's an adjunct. We love our adjuncts. We're going to try and help have a good time to help an adjunct gets thrown to the wolves. Anyways. Um, yeah. So thank you so much. This is definitely going to be
absolutely and we even know, the brain.
We even knew where to put the break. It's amazing. I don't even have to go incoherent for
the link already for the show. Yes. Yeah. Find it after my God. It's a friggin miracle.
And but I probably will not edit it today, which means it'll be next Friday. It'll be like, edited the podcast episode yet. But thank you to everyone who takes the time to email us at all the things adhd@gmail.com Again, apologies.
Blocking everyone on Instagram, Instagram. Yes.
again. Try again. Let us know try again. And yeah, so I hope this helped if you have your own strategies that you've come up that you have some insight about the book of your user manual. Love to hear it. We would love to hear it seriously. Like we're always ready. Like if somebody could give their strategies for filling out reimbursement forms so that maybe he can get inspired
to I need a life hack for that. Please help everyone.
And yeah, so have a great while it's Friday for us. So it's a great weekend is not necessarily appropriate, because I've no idea when you're listening to this, but have a great day. Have a great
day. Have a good day. You're gonna have to have the day you're gonna have
interested,
be interested or not.
You're tired of doing something live your best life
or you live your best life. This is okay, we got to go with this.
