You're listening to cubicle to CEO episode 216. Amazon created their own holiday with Prime Days. So why can't small businesses Holly Haynes had the same thought she was tired of competing against massive brands for advertising space during the Black Friday Cyber Monday craze, and being stressed about launching when she'd rather be spending time with her family. Thus her end of year 'Anti-Black Friday' campaign was born. A launch driving people to a private podcast funnel, which then primes listeners to join Holly's Anti-Social School program. In this case study will cover the strategic launch plan that generated $70,000 in revenue without relying on social media to spread the word. If you want to go social media optional this holiday season, and create sales hype on your own schedule. This one's for you.
Welcome to Cubicle to CEO the podcast. I'm your host, Ellen Yin. I quit my job without a backup plan and bootstrapped my first $300 freelance project into $2 million in revenue by age 28. On the show, you'll hear weekly case study interviews with leading entrepreneurs and CEOs who share one specific strategy that successfully grew their business revenue. Skip the expensive and time consuming learning curve of testing everything yourself by borrowing what actually works from the best and brightest mentors. You'll also get a front row seat to my founders journey through transparent income reports and behind the business solo episodes, subscribe now so we can grow together every Monday.
Hi, Holly. Welcome to the show today.
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
We're so thrilled to have you. This is a pretty like chunky case study, which I'm really excited about. There's so many different facets and angles I want to dive into around your Anti Social campaign, your Anti-Black Friday. It's just a really novel idea. And I'm seeing this movement grow around people wanting to find other ways to market their business off of social media. So I think the timing is perfect, especially as when this episode airs. We're nearing the Black Friday, Cyber Monday mayhem. So Holly, we'll get to that case study in just a moment. But first, of course, I want to hear your cubicle to CEO story. How did you make that jump into entrepreneurship?
Yeah, so I would say it's definitely a true cubicle to CEO story. I have a 22 year corporate strategy career. So I was like in it to win it in the corporate life for a really long time. And if I'm being honest, I never in a million years thought I would own my own business like it was never on the radar, I never thought it would be something that I would do. And the story that I love to tell is I was in grad school. And it was some sort of finance class, I always joke like, I don't do math after 3pm. I know it's important, but it's just not my favorite subject. And we had a guest speaker come in. And her name was Jeni Britton Bauer from Jeni's ice cream cheese from Columbus, Ohio. And she was just getting started, I was like, Oh, my gosh, we're gonna have to go like through her finances. Like, I don't want to do this at eight o'clock at night. And it was the total opposite she came in. And she was talking about how being able to run her business when she makes like, really curated like fabulous ice cream, has been able to allow her to have more time with her family and to make a bigger impact in the community. And at the time, I didn't have kids, I just got married. And I was like, I think I'm thinking about this all wrong. Like I kept thinking, like, I want to have the office with the door that shuts and have the team and like, have all the things. And I just remember her sharing that story. And I was like, I don't know if I can do that. Like, I think I'm on the wrong path, which at the time was just like, not the best moment because you know, you just invest all this money into school and you think that you're doing all the right things.
So long story short, I just sort of kept that idea in the back of my head. And a couple years later, I was really thinking about, you know, I think I could do something different. I think I can do something different. And so I just sort of dabbled in like mentorship inside the consulting companies that I worked for. So I did consulting for Fortune 500 companies. And we started building women's groups and the leanin book with Sheryl Sandberg came out and so then we're creating women's groups, and we're doing all these things. And I was like, Oh, I really liked this right. Then I had twins, which will put everything on hold for. And in January of 2020. I was like, You know what I feel I keep going back to that journey story of I want to make a bigger impact. I want to spend more time with my family. I don't want to sit in my car and drive, you know, an hour a day like what can I do differently? And so I kind of did it all backwards. And it was beginning of January 2020. I hired a coach and I said I have all this experience helped me build an online business. And so that's what we did and we're almost four years in now.
Wow. Okay, I have a couple of thoughts that ran through my head as you were sharing your story. First thing, I was like, you don't look old enough to have 22 years of corporate experience. I was like did you start
Yeah.
When you were eight?
No, I'm almost 45. So, you know, we started a little bit later in life, but I think that's okay. I think 40s are like the best era yet. So,
No, it's a huge compliment to you. I was like, wow, like you are thriving. And you look like you're in your early 30s. So I was like, That's really impressive that you had 22 years of corporate experience going into your entrepreneurship career. Also, congratulations. And it was years ago. But congratulations on twins, I grew up with identical twin sisters. And so growing up in a family with twins is just so much fun. I know, as a mother, it's probably a completely different, and at times challenging experience. But I just I love twins. So I always love hearing that.
And then I also think it's so cool that what really pulled you out of the corporate world after decades in it was being exposed to someone who was living life and doing business a little bit differently. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about bringing women like you Holly on our podcast, because who knows, a person that might be listening to this conversation today. And afterwards, you know, you spark something for them, where they're like, I never even knew business could be done like that until all they showed me, you know, so I just think that access or social capital, as I like to call it, that access to be in the rooms with people who can allow you and push you to think outside the box is so key. And we don't always all have that opportunity in our real lives, like you did with Jeni. And so I'm just so glad that, you know, this podcast can kind of serve as a platform for that.
Which brings us right into the case study, which I am just so intrigued by this concept of anti Black Friday. So we're gonna kind of start big picture, Holly, and then we're gonna, you know, get into the nitty gritty but big picture. Where was this idea for anti Black Friday sparked? Meaning? If you're looking at holiday sales as a whole? Had you previously participated in Black Friday or Cyber Monday sales before? And was your idea to start your own holiday, so to speak, the outcome of not seeing the results you wanted from participating in a previous Black Friday sales? Or was it the opposite? Where Black Friday sales were incredible for your business? And therefore, you thought, Okay, let me take it a step further and actually create my own holiday around it.
Yeah, so good. I'm obsessed with case studies, also, because of my background, so I'm really excited to dig in. So for me personally, I mean, if you think about the story that I just told, having time with my family, and creating free time, was really like the basis of my business. Like I didn't want to be tied to someone else's schedule. And so early on in my business, I did dabble in Black Friday sales, because I just thought, well, that's what everyone's doing. Right? Like everyone, I mean, you get a million emails in one day, like buy this, do this, do that. And I did it. And I just remember, it was like Thanksgiving Eve or whatever. And I was so freakin stressed out. I was like, Oh, my God, who's going to read this? Are they going to purchase this, like, what's going to happen? And I just, that feeling that I had was like, This is not how I want to run my business, I want to come up with a way where I can do it on my own terms. Maybe it is Black Friday, but it's definitely not me sitting in front of my computer, like I would so much rather be eating leftovers and watching football. So for me, I think you know, sometimes you have to go through it to realize that it's not for you. But I also think kind of what we talked about the beginning is you don't have to do it the way that everyone else does.
And one of the examples that I always give is Amazon Prime Day, which is in July, I think they have another one coming in October now. And basically Amazon creates their own holiday because it's a downtime in their sales cycle. And so I was like, Well, why can't I do that? Yes, it's a great time. November typically is a great time for sales, but it doesn't have to be that Friday. And then I started to dig into the statistics a little bit more and I was like, why am I competing with all of these big brands? Like I'm not a big brand? I'm not, you know, I don't have millions of followers. So why am I trying to compete with all those other people, if I could just do it the week before or the week after it works for my schedule, and I think it actually works for my clients schedule as well.
That okay, I'm nerding out over this Holly because there was another guest who was on our show a couple months ago, Sam who has an attorney background and he has a legal contract shop and we were nerding out over how we love pulling inspiration from big business and then applying it to small business so I totally see the the draw of Prime Day because you're right like people have created a full basically holiday around it like the amount of attention it gets and how much preparation people do it. So I guess in taking that concept, this case study, you've done multiple live launches of antisocial school, and it's now an evergreen program. But the one launch that we're really focused on in this particular case study is the one from November 2022, where you did it completely off of social, you made $70,000. It's incredible. You chose to do that, though still in November. So my question is, knowing that, you know, your inspiration was drawn from, let's say, Prime Day where they chose to do it in an offseason cycle. Why did you still choose to have your anti Black Friday during the November holiday season? And did you find that it was challenging to differentiate yours from the Black Friday mayhem?
Yeah, that's another great question. So I think for me, it always comes down to my personal schedule and family schedule first. So one of the things that I teach is to map out like what you actually want to do first, and then build your business around it. And for us, we actually took our girls to Europe for 10 days before we launched this thing. And I wanted to have the holidays off. So for me personally, I wanted to do it in November, not only to make sure that, you know, we hit some of our revenue goals, but also what we were teaching was how to gain followers and gain a client attraction strategy, create a client attraction strategy, without being online all the time.
And so in theory, I thought, hey, I can actually get my clients the best results, if they do this now, before the end of the year, because what happens in January, everyone starts to launch whatever their thing is. So not only did it make sense from a calendar perspective for us and our family, but the theory was, if people can enroll in Anti-Social School, now I can help them build a client attraction strategy, they can do it in a way where they're not working all the time. And then when they want to launch whatever their thing is, in January, they're like, set and ready to go. So I really tried to look at it like twofold. Does it work for our family, I always say like, don't launch some big huge thing. And then like your kids have dance camp or something like it just doesn't work. But also, is it a good time for your clients? And does it make sense for what you're teaching?
Yeah, finding that intersection between the two, I think is so smart. Have you launched in or launched your own holiday, at other times of year? Because I know you've done this live launch multiple times? And if so, did you find any compelling information or data around, you know, a particular month or time of year being more effective than another time of year?
Yeah, so we've done it in July, too. And I mean, I think this goes back to my corporate background, and you kind of look at, like the ebb and flow of revenue, and when people are taking vacation and when people are investing. And so we always do like a Christmas in July. It's not as you know, fun as Anti Black Friday, but that it works really well. And I think you you see other people do that. It's not this, like, you know, intense, you have to do it on a certain day kind of thing. But it's worked well. And I think people are in a buying pattern in July, where they're on vacation. And they're like, Oh, this is easy. I'll sign up for this now. And then I'll execute it later. And so I think understanding your client's buying pattern and what's happening, but also what is your schedule look like? And I think too, I mean, we're all smart business women, like look at your revenue streams, where do you have a dip? Like, can you create something that's going to really help move your clients into where you want them to go?
Absolutely. And one little nugget, you said it so quickly that I'm like, I don't know if our listeners pull that out. I'm gonna read pull that out. I love what you said about when you launched in July, when you did that Christmas in July, you specifically chose a product that was easy to buy now and implement later. And I think that's a really key factor. Because I feel like and I've actually experienced this in my own experience of sometimes when I launch something that requires live participation, it becomes a scheduling nightmare, right? Where, oh, I don't have the capacity right now to be a participant they want to but they just don't have room on their calendar. Whereas what you're saying is like, if you can buy something that can be implemented at any time, it kind of resolves that challenge or obstacle right out the gate. So that was a really smart tip. Just wanted to make sure we pull that out for our listeners. Just to clarify the one that you did in November though the Anti Black Friday, is that what you call the holiday? And was it in early November, then I'm assuming if you wanted to get it out of the way.
Yeah, so we call it Anti Black Friday. And the whole theory which you know, fits my brand is I don't want to work over the holidays. So let me give you all the tools that you need. You can do it before Thanksgiving. Then we'll set you up to be successful between now and the end of the year and then in January you'll be ready to go.
I love that. I'm so curious outside of the name. Did you do any distinct branding for of this holiday, did you build almost like a sub culture around this holiday the same way that Amazon does with Prime Day? Like, how much did you really feed into, you know, elevating this holiday, let's say and creating a community around it versus just kind of choosing? Okay, I'm going to launch earlier. I'm just I'm just curious how you approach that?
That's a great question, I probably should have done all of that. And maybe we will, this year, we really focused on the word anti, so Anti Social School and Anti Black Friday. And so that's really where a lot of our marketing went to have, you can do this. And you don't have to be on social all day long. And you can do this and you don't have to be in front of your laptop, the entire holiday season. And so that's sort of what we focused on. I'm a really simple launcher, like, I know that there's a lot of really cool things that you can do. But if I'm being honest, it overwhelms me. And at the time, we were so really small team. And so it was just me. And so we tried to keep it as simple as possible, and really focus on why we're doing it during this time, what the outcome is, and then how you can really be a part of it so that you're setting yourself up for the new year.
Oh, 100%. I mean, I can relate to that so much. I feel like I'm not I'm definitely not that launcher that has like everything mapped out months in advance everything pre scheduled, I very much am like in the flow, like what feels good, what do I feel like I want to say, so I can really relate to that. I want to insert an early hot take from you, you just mentioned that you really focused on that prefix, the anti, my question to you is, why do you feel like that word anti? Because I mean, if you look at it just in a silo, right? It's technically a word with like a negative connotation typically. So why do you feel like the word anti was so attractive to your ideal customer? And, you know, any, like marketing psychology around that, that you want to share? I'd love to hear?
Yeah, you know, I think so we were coming up with the word for Anti-Social School. And the whole premise of Anti-Social School is to build a client attraction strategy where you're not dependent on the social algorithm. And so I was like, what do we call it? You know, I want it to be a school, I want it to be a class and the word Anti just kept coming up, because I feel like it just hit what the goal of the school was so fast. And I think in today's culture, like, if you don't get what somebody's talking about, you're you're gonna lose the person. And so I actually was very nervous that the word antisocial was going to make people think she's not social at all. She's not using social media. But it actually did the opposite. It created this, like culture of people are asking questions like, what does this actually mean? Like I see you on social. So how are you Anti Social, so it created this like conversation? Which is really, really been cool. And, you know, everyone's like, when is this opening? Again? When are you talking about again, so it's been neat to sort of follow that. But I mean, I was nervous if I'm being honest at first, because the word anti is not something that you think of this, like, oh, I want to be part of this. But I think people at the time, and it sort of ebbs and flows are so burned out on social media that when I say antisocial, they're like, I want to learn more. And I think that's what has attracted people to learn more.
Yeah, I mean, it's like a pattern interrupt, right? It's, anytime you see a contrarian view or opinion, you can't help yourself, you want to like stop and observe or engage. And I don't know if that's just because we're naturally as humans kind of drawn a little bit to controversy and like polarizing conversations. But I think to your point, it really does spark that conversation. And it really magnetizes people who, like you said, are on the extreme ends of like, I hate social, I'm completely burnt out, I don't want to be on it anymore. And so I can see how it would be extra appealing to the people who are feeling that way. Even though of course, like you just mentioned, that's not necessarily how you feel about social, but just the fact that it's like, to me, at least when I heard Anti Social School, it felt like a beacon of hope to people who felt that this was the only way that you could build an online business. So I again, I can really see how that's attractive.
And I feel like that's a good lead into the the execution of this actual launch that we're referring to, again, for our listeners, the $70,000 launch in November of last year, that was done completely off of social in line with this idea of antisocial school. So leading up to this just a little context for our listeners, Holly had lost her main Instagram account of 14,000 followers basically had to start completely over with a fresh account. And you decided to adopt this strategy that I've seen, you know, quite a few people do nowadays, but I'm just kind of curious, like why you chose this, which is the nine grid strategy essentially, for our listeners. If you've never seen this before, it's like when you go to someone's Instagram profile and on their main feed, it's literally like nine images on their grid and that's it. They may have more posts elsewhere like on there. Reels or whatnot, but on their actual profile feed, it's nine images. So Holly, talk to us about the nine grid.
Yeah, so the ninth grid is really interesting. I will say, though, when we launched this, my old account didn't exist. So the 14,000 was gone. And all I had was this, like new account with like, 200 people in it. So I didn't have anything during this launch. But I have then since taken my old account, and implemented this nine grid strategy. And for me, I think the nine grid is twofold if you don't want a presence on social. But we all know what do we do when we talk to somebody or we listen to a podcast, we immediately go to Instagram, and we like I say, Google, the person on Instagram, yeah, gives you a presence, right. So it just gives you a presence so they can learn who you are. I think the caveat with a nine grid is if you have it, you have to be pointing people to somewhere else, like it's not going to magically work for you, you have to have some sort of other client attraction strategy that's not Instagram or social, where you're bringing people into your world. But if you have that, and it's you know, it's just not something that you want to deal with right now, then it's a great sort of like placeholder for, hey, this is who I am. But here's where you can learn more.
And so that's really where I've seen it be the most effective, I don't think you should use it. If you're like, I don't want to be on social or share my story anywhere, I'm just going to put it out there and hope that it works for me, that's when it's not going to work. So what we did was we took our old account, and we'd put a nine grid up there because people were on it and solid, but I actually liked my new account better. I like the smaller account, I get to know people better. And honestly, I'm using it as a test to really share like, Hey, you can launch some pretty significant things and have a very successful business with not a ton of followers. And so I really thought it was important to set that example. But that's how we've used it. And I think, you know, if you need a break from social or you want to dabble in some other things, and you don't have a big team, it's a great sort of starting point so that you don't lose, you know, people looking who you are and what you do.
Yeah, that's a great distinction. So you're kind of approaching the nine grid as a redirect of sorts, right? Instead of like landing on a 404 error page, like, oh, this account doesn't exist. It's like, Hey, glad you're here. Here's where you should actually go engage with me. So I think that's actually really smart. On a probably less expansive degree. I've seen this like, my friend, Dana Snyder, I remember one time I hopped on her Twitter, and it literally said, like back when Twitter was alive. But it's something like, Hey, I'm Dana, like, I'm not here, but you can find me or like, I'm not on Twitter. But you can find me here. And I think it pointed to like LinkedIn or something. So I love that idea of using it as a redirect in a way to introduce who you are what you stand for who you're helping, super smart. As far as the redirect when people would land on the nine grid or would land on your smaller new social account. If the launch wasn't happening on social, where are you directing people?
Yeah. So this is my favorite part of the whole process. And this I think anyone can ask themselves this, and this is where does your audience hang out? I think I do have an audience on social media. But for me, podcasting has really been my entire background. So I have a podcast, I love podcasting. I think I spoke on 300 different podcasts last year. So like my audience is there. And I was like, Okay, going back to how I just shared, like, if you're not on social, you've got to have an a way to bring people in, right. So my idea was, I'm going to create a private podcast, we already have a public podcast, I'm going to create a private podcast. And that private podcast is going to be so niche down, right. So I call it like micro niching. It's going to be so niche down and it's going to give the entire framework of antisocial school.
So it's six episodes, I think seven. Now we've added some bonus episodes. And I basically laid out the whole framework of this is, if you want to create a presence and don't want to be dependent on social media, this is what you do. And each of the episodes were like 10 or 15 minutes. There was like assignments, we created an email series behind the scenes. So you could ask me questions on email, not on social. And that's really what I shared. And so I would get on podcast and I would talk about it, I would put it in my email, like anything that I could do to get people to listen to that podcast is what I shared. And I think I put in my case study we had a six week launch runway, five of those weeks, four and a half. Were sharing that podcast so it was just non stop talking about it, to get people to listen to it to get people to understand what this whole Anti-Social School concept was. And then we launched Anti-Social School on the back end of that.
That's amazing. That six episode series which I noticed that you've added bonus is sense. Did you aside from covering the framework of Anti-Social School? Did you have a quote unquote hard pitch or hard sell at the end of that podcast was a leading to a sales page that then to the selling like where did the sale actually take place?
Yeah, so at the time, it didn't really lead to the sales page, because if I'm being honest, the sales page wasn't done yet. So I was like, Okay, where can I point people to and so the goal was that they opted into the podcast, and then I had their email, and then eventually it did lead to a waitlist, I still use a waitlist strategy today. So we can you can listen to the podcast anytime. It wasn't hard selling, I guess I don't really even believe in hard selling, if I'm being really honest. But it was more of, if you'd like to learn more, here's how you can get the whole framework. Kind of like we've given you, you know, a piece of the pie, I can only teach so much in a private podcast, if you would like to learn more, here's how you can do that. And we started to do that in episodes, I think it was like, four or five and six. And it was just like a little tidbit of like if you'd like to learn more, you know, send an email or reply to this word or whatever it was. And then after they opted in, they eventually did get sales emails when we opened the doors.
Got it? Okay, that's actually really helpful because I've kind of been on the listening side of both types of private podcasts where it's like, it's almost like a webinar broken down into a podcast where there is like a direct pitch at the end. But I like for yours. It's more of like a, I think you've used this word when you were pitching us your case study, like a hand raised like a hand. I'm kind of interested in this concept. And I want to continue to be told more about this thing, right? So I love that you're directing people to an email list and then sending them through a sales sequence. I'm curious, you just brought up this stuff. And you said it so casually. So I'm, like, just blown away that you did 300 interviews? Yeah. And 2022 just for rock. That's like, almost one a week. That's insane.
So it was a little insane.
Oh, not one a week, one a day. Sorry. I'm like, yeah, there's not 365 weeks in a year. 365 days anyways, that's almost one a day, which is wild. I want to know, when you said you said it was such confidence. Like I know my audience is on podcasts listening to podcasts. How did you know that prior to jumping in, you know, full force with podcast guesting? Was there some data in your business that led you to that conclusion? Was it just a hunch that turned out to be right, like, why did you choose podcasting as your primary traffic source for this launch?
Yeah, I would say it's twofold. So I always say look at facts, not feelings. And so my facts told me in some of our higher ticket products that people were coming, our clients were coming from podcasts, like, I would ask them, Hey, how did you find me? How did you connect with it with me, but also, I always say that you typically are your best client two to three years prior to where you're at. And that's where I consume data. I also know that my target client is most likely working full time in the corporate world. And they don't have time to watch webinars, they don't have time to watch these, like hour long, you know, workshops of how to do something. And so I really tried to think about, okay, if you're driving to work, and you want to learn how to build a client attraction strategy, could you listen to a seven minute podcast episode, you know, if you're like me, you listen to it on the way to work. And then like, when you get into the parking lot you like, write the notes down, and you go into your job. And so I was really trying to think about how are my clients and my ideal customers consuming things? And that's really where it was at.
Yeah, no, that is a really helpful tip like thinking about where you got your information when you were starting out. So love that source for for determining your strategy, the 300 podcast interviews, how far in advance did you have to plan and pitch to get on that many shows? I mean, that is such a large volume. Did you go through a media season tour where you were like, just basically nonstop on two to three podcasts every day? Or did you truly sparse it out? I mean, as much as you can, given it was such a large volume over the course of the entire year, like what was your process for actually acquiring that volume of guest spots?
Yeah. So it's interesting when you speak on podcast, when you just get started, you tend to get on more podcasts. And so at the beginning, it just happened very organically. And so one of my favorite questions at the end of like, any podcast interview is like, well, how can I help you? So I'm interviewing for people on my show. And then at the end, I'm like, Well, how can I help you? Or if I'm being interviewed for another show? And then at the end, I'm like, How can I help you? And so it kind of just became this like organic network. And then I layered on Okay, I'm gonna very strategically reach out to specific podcasts.
I try really, really hard to keep them to Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, if I can so that I have like a little bit of break on the ends. And I won't lie like after we went through that season, I was like, I'm just gonna take a step back for a minute, take a breath. But it's really cool how it sort of panned out, because the more you speak about your business, like the better you get at it, and the more questions people ask you, the more you understand what they actually want to know, which has led to sort of other you know, product developments and things like that. And I think for me, it's so much easier for me to speak on a podcast than it is to write 17 emails or whatever the thing is. And so I just knew, if I want to be able to grow, like that's my client attraction strategy, so I just kind of went all in.
Scale your business without the social media madness, get more clients and your time back with this stress free client attraction strategy. This is for you if your business relies heavily on social media, but it's not producing the results you want. In this free private podcast series, Holly shares how you can ditch the social drama, and still get consistent clients with this business strategy and launch plan that doesn't rely on the algorithm. Go to HollyMariehaynes.com/social. That's spelled hollymariehaynes.com/social. For the goods. Again, that's HollyMariehaynes.com/social. We'll also drop a clickable link below in the show notes.
No, and I think it's a brilliant what you said about and I don't think anyone's framed it quite that way. So I just want to re highlight that what you shared about every time you're talking about your offer your business, you get better at talking about it more succinct, more clear. And I also love how you utilize the hosts questions almost as like mini market research, to understand like you said, where the curiosities are, what areas you could be diving deeper into what are the areas of interest? So that is really, really smart. I do want to ask you, here's another I guess, like hot take moment for you. I know you really believe in the 80/20 rule in what you teach your own students. So if you apply that to your own experience of guesting on 300 podcasts last year, do you feel that that rule was true? As in do you feel that 20% of those 300 podcasts were the ones who actually brought the most traffic and most impact to your launch? Or do you feel like it was actually pretty evenly spread out and that volume was actually necessary to reach the goals that you did?
No, they were not equal by totally not equal? And we'll even see it like behind the scenes, like, we'll look at our email list. And my husband actually tracks our analytics. And he was like, what happened today? Because you know, we'll get like, 100 new subscribers in like, a couple hours. And that's not normal. And so it's like, oh, this podcast episode went live, or this happened. And so I would say they are not all created equal. And, you know, sort of learning from that experience. Now I'm a little bit more choosy on. Okay, which ones do I want to be a guest on? What makes the most sense. But I think the experience of talking that much like I would totally do, again, because it taught me so much about how to introduce myself, where to point people, what message resonates. And then even going back to the launch, like, what are some of the pain points that we want to call out? And I don't think I would have had that data if I hadn't done that.
Absolutely. I love that it serves a different purpose for you. If you were to redo that guesting strategy, again, for traffic for driving traffic to your private podcast, how many podcasts Do you think you would shoot for now to guest on like reducing that volume from 300? Yeah, how many targeted shows? Do you think you'd actually go after this time?
I feel like we probably had one or two or month that really brought in traffic. So if you could strategically pick the ones that would do that, which actually is very hard. You never know. Yeah, I would say one to two a month. Like it doesn't have to be crazy. And that's actually what I teach my students like if you could just strategically put yourself in front of an audience once a week. Ideally, that means once a month, something is going to, you know, come through and that's where you're going to start to build traction.
Absolutely. And I think one of the things that you do really, really well Holly that I admire about you is a lot of people go on podcasts, right? And I feel that I've done this to myself where it kind of is just like you show up you're not really sure what's going to happen you kind of just go with the flow and fly by the seat of your pants and there's not really a lot of intentionality behind the action that the listener is supposed to take after they hear the interview, whereas you approach podcast guesting very differently, obviously, since it is the main traffic source for the launch, at least that we're talking about in in this particular case study. So when you were on the shows, I would love for you to kind of break down for our listeners, how did you drive people to take action after listening instead of just going? Oh, that was a nice conversation with Holly, you know, move on to the next thing? What did that call to action look like? What resources did you have repaired? Or what option did you have prepared? Or was it literally just a straight to like, Hey, if you liked what I talked about today, go listen to my private podcast.
Yeah, I love these questions so much. Okay, so first, I would say I always go into an interview with intention. What are topics that I can talk about that not only support the show that I'm going on, but also support me, because if I came on here and talked about real estate, right, my husband's a realtor that would make zero sense. And I would have nothing, we could talk about it, I could give you my opinions, but I would have nowhere to point you afterwards. And so I try to at least incorporate a couple of key topics every single time.
And going back to what we were talking about before, if you're talking about something over and over again, you you get better at it. So there's a little bit of self improvement there. But at the end on, you know, every episode, they always ask like Holly share where people can connect with you more, and I have found, the best way to do that is to point people to one place. So instead of saying like 17 different places, like Come find me on Instagram, come download my XYZ, come to my website, I am very specific. And I'll tell a story. Because that's what people remember. And I will say, you know, I love talking about this topic. Obviously, we all want to scale a business where we're not sitting in front of our laptop all day, I can only share, this is my favorite line, I can only share so much in 45 minutes, or whatever the timeframe is, if you go here, you can download my whole framework for free. And by the way, I'm behind the scenes answering questions. So just come connect with me and I can't wait to talk more. I will share one link. That's it. And so it's very consistent, and they hear the story. And that tends to make them remember it.
Okay, so smart. Chefs kiss. I just love that tip. I feel like that is worth this whole case study for someone to hear leaving the CTA as a story because stories are what humans remember. Like we know that innately. But I don't think again, I don't think anyone's ever said that out loud on our show. So I really, really, really love that approach. That's so so smart that you tell it as a story. And I couldn't agree more with, the less links you share, the more likely someone will actually follow through on this. I feel like the same is true even for example, like even for Linktrees, right? Like that's why I don't really believe in linktrees because we'll have like 25 links, and people have decision fatigue, they just don't know where to go. And they feel confused. So giving them one clear, specific action, I think is just so so smart. And then of course, like you said, telling it like a story. So people who you know, do decide to take action on that they go over, they opt into your private podcast, they listen to the six or more part series, they get on your list. They're starting to receive these sales emails for this particular live launch that we are talking about today. How many sales emails did you send them to sign up for the live launch of Anti-Social School?
Yeah, so when you sign up for the podcast is called Ditch The Social Drama. I think you'll get six or seven emails, and most of them are in these are not sales emails. These are like, listen to this, do this. If you have questions, reply, yes, or whatever the interaction is. And so that comes first. And then after that, I always do live launches for a period of seven to 10 days. This was seven days I like to do Tuesday through Monday so that you have the weekend to regroup, what I call it, especially if you're working full time, it gives you like a minute to take your breath. So we did a seven day launch period. And I don't remember the exact emails. I think it was 10 maybe I mean, we definitely send one every day. And then on the last day we sent two or three. But the audience was so warm, right? Like they already knew exactly what I was talking about why they needed to do it. We actually have case studies in the podcast so you can see like how it's worked. So it just became this like really easy, I'll knock on wood, easy launch where I didn't feel like I was like pulling people across the finish line. It was like, let's do this together. You already know me because you've heard my voice you've seen like how I write and how I communicate. I'm literally walking the walk because I think our Instagram had like, you know 200 People at the time. So you could see it really come to life.
The six to seven emails that you said I would actually like to dig a little deeper expand on that concept. You said like you're telling people, okay, do this, listen to this and then reply this if you have a question. What do you mean by that, like when you say, Do this, like, Give us an example of an action you would tell someone to do? Or when you say listen to this, were you redirecting people again back to the private podcast or directing them to listen to something else?
No. So I think this is the magic, it was actually interaction with me. And to this day, I'm still the one that responds. So you get the first email and it's like, here's your playlist, right of your Anti-Social Strategy. Listen to Episode One. And I think in episode one, we're talking about like, how to introduce yourself and what you're known for. hit reply, and let me know what did you come up with? You know, not everyone replies, but I'm giving you homework. So not only are you able to listen to it, but you can actually take action and do it. And so some of the emails are like that. Some of them are what you mentioned earlier, I call them hand raisers. While I'll be like, if you liked episode three, here's actually three more episodes on our other podcasts where you can learn about client attraction or setting up an email list or whatever the topic was. So I'm nurturing them and giving them more resources to get to know me.
And then actually our best performing email ever. The subject line is 'Margaritas at 3pm', which, I can't remember why I wrote that. But it was like a crazy day. And I love margaritas. And I was like, I just want to like, sit outside and drink a margarita instead of doing all these other things that I need to do. And inside the email, I wrote, hey, I know that you're getting a lot of emails from me. But guess what, I'm a real person. I'm going through this like you are. If you want to see how this client attraction strategy works, DM me or reply, show me, and I'll show you and I actually did a mini client attraction audit. So they had to fill out a Google Doc, and then I would send a loom video back. So they're like, when I send a loom video back, people are blown away. They're like, I can't believe that you're actually responding. Or it's not, like you used my name, I get that a lot. But what I find is, if I can take, you know, five minutes to actually share how this is going to help them. I'm not having to do a sales call, which saves me time, I'm showing them how it's going to work for them. And then in the end, they can make the decision of if they want to work with me or not.
That's an incredible value give I mean, yes, the personalization, yes, the fact that you respond to things yourself, which I know people can be really surprised by in this age of automation, which so I really appreciate that you do that. But you're like taking it one step further and saying, I'm actually going to give you a customized preview of what this looks like. And I mean, that's so rare, especially in courses or, you know, programs similar to that. So, wow, I'm very impressed by that. For the people, though, who still like, you know, you're you're giving them many homework assignments, keeping them actionable throughout their process of listening to the private podcast and engaging with you, which I love. Do you though, at any, or on any of these emails, like the first, let's say, five to six emails? Are you giving them the link to purchase or the option to purchase in those emails as well? Because I know, for example, like some people like myself, I feel like I'm kind of a fast decision maker when it comes to do I want this or not. So sometimes I don't need to be nurtured for multiple emails. It's like, just give me the checkout link. And like, we're good to go, you know, do you offer that option in each email? Or do you truly wait until the very last like two emails to do so
Yeah, I'm a fast decision maker, too. I feel like we have a PS at the first email and says, If you want to skip all of this, and you just want to know how to get to the next step, go here, or we'll do like a PS. You know, in the next couple of emails, we're going to talk to you about how to take action and join our next cohort, you can click here now if you don't want to wait. So we kind of do something where it's like, if you want to you can, but we're, it's not like a hard sell. And then I feel like emails six or seven. It's like, your chance to learn more, or whatever the wording is, is coming tomorrow, and then we'll start the sales emails after that.
Oh, interesting. Okay, so you're like, you are almost teasing that the sales emails and then how many emails come in the sales sequence?
Yeah, I think it's 10. I think we do one a day and then we do two or three the last day. Okay. So it's a good I mean, it's a good you know, six to 10 on the nurturing and then six to 10 on the sales if we're not in a sales period because now the course is evergreen and it'll take you to a waitlist. You get the same emails but it just will take you to a waitlist and then when we open the doors will offer it to the waitlist first.
Got it. Okay. And then The 10 emails that are in the sales sequence, would you be able to just like high level kind of walk us through what the purpose of each email is? I asked because I know some emails, it's like, okay, email number three is all about, you know, addressing this specific objection, but email for is about highlighting a past client case study. So I would love to hear like what your unique approach to your sales emails look like.
Yeah. So I really like to just answer questions, but also talk about what you're going to get. So I always say like, the first sales email is always like, what's the thing? Like, what's the thing that you're getting doors are open, it's like, usually a pretty easy email to write. Because it's like, here's the thing. The next couple of emails, I would say, emails, two, three, and four is really calling out. Who is this for? What objections do people have? Right? So you're answering the questions, this is for you. If Do you feel this way? Here's how I can help answering objections. And then I would say, you know, the last kind of set of emails is really talking about, well, what happens if you don't do this? And they always say, like, you know, talk about the pain points, or whatever the thing is, but to me, it's like, okay, you can keep doing what you're doing. Or you can do this.
And so, you know, I would say, just to recap, the, the first email would be, here's your thing. And then the second email would be, is this for you? Like, are you this person? And then the third, fourth, and fifth emails would be answering the objections, like, Will this work for me? But also, do I have enough time? Like, I always say that if you can answer the questions all around time and money, then most people who are on the fence are going to be like, Okay, this is for me. So if I can tell you how much time it's going to take, and I can show you that the investment is worth it. Like these are case studies of clients that have gone through this program. And this is what happens, this is the value that you're gonna get if I can paint that picture, then I feel like the sales piece is much easier.
Yeah, no, I totally agree. And like the three most common objections, right, like, I don't have time, I don't have money, or I am not sure if it's, it's the right fit, or I need to think about it further, right? So I totally agree that being able to provide like a break down that feels tangible and logical for people who need that sort of assurance is really helpful. To wrap up our case study, I'm kind of curious, like, you know how, when you are on the receiving end of sales emails, there's usually some sort of last ditch might not be like the right term, but it's kind of like a last ditch incentive for people who are still on the fence at the very last hour. And for some people, it's like, Okay, we're gonna bring in a 12 pe plan, where previously there was only a three PE plan if you're, you know, if that's going to be what pushes you over the edge, or like sometimes people will bring in last minute, we're opening our calendar for sales calls, if you really need to talk one on one, with a human over a zoom call for you. Do you have any sort of like last ditch incentive to get those fence sitters off the fence?
Yeah, such a good question. We've done a bunch of different things I was actually going to share. So the sales page framework that I use is actually with the story brand. And one of my biggest tips when writing sales emails is actually following your sales page. Because it's literally it literally walks you through all the different pieces, right? Like if you think of all the different sections, and one of the things that the storebrand does is at the end, so you know, you're at the end of your OpenCart. It's, here's how you can get antisocial success. So I say you can get Anti-Social success in three simple steps. Step one, join the next cohort. What happens when you join the cohort, I explain it. Step two, I'll actually do a client attraction audit for you. I'm going to tell you what's missing. And then you can dig it and like I'm literally walking them through what happens when they join. And I think sometimes we get lost reading all the sales emails that we forget, like, what what actually happens when I say yes, so that's one thing that I've used that has worked really well.
I think the other thing you know, you can always do bonuses, we tend to just like lay all our bonuses out on the line at the beginning. I think the I just really hate the like scarcity effect of sales. It's just not my favorite. It makes me feel icky. So I tend to not do it a lot. But for us Anti-Social School is usually only open once a quarter. So it's kind of like if you don't do this now what's going to happen? So you know, we always say like if you continue to do what you're doing, like if nothing changes, nothing changes. So I say if you don't make a change, your business isn't going to make it for you. So that is something that has worked really well. Sometimes we'll throw in like some bonuses like if you you know really want to get started, you get a 30 minute or 15 minute strategy call with me or something like that. But honestly, I found with this sort of like, live launch private podcast, like they already have gotten so much that I really didn't need a lot of bonuses at the end, knock on wood.
We've launched it five times so far. And we haven't really had to do any of those like crazy things. It's just been more of an organic. You know, using those hand raisers. Referring back to the podcast, we will add bonus episodes to the private podcast. So we'll add client results. So you can hear clients talk through what they did, we just had a client get on the Food Network, and we shared her story and how she did it. And so I feel like that has been more valuable sometimes than just throwing in like, Let's do 17 more calls, because most of my clients don't have time to do that. So I think it's really thinking about what do they want? And then what happens if they don't do anything?
That's so helpful, especially the the reminder that you gave that you also need to help paint the picture of what happens in those first few minutes after they enroll or the first week, right? Because you're right, sometimes we're so focused on like getting someone to the decision that we don't really help them see what happens after they say yes, so that was a really, really helpful reminder. And I gotta say, in a world of quick, quick, quick, and a lot of hype on social, it's really refreshing having this conversation with you, Holly and hearing how you've had so much success off of social and then also with like more of a slow burn type of relationship building, I think that's really admirable. And, again, just inspires and encourages people who want to do business a little bit differently. So, thank you so much for your insights and wisdom today and sharing your case study. I feel like we already did a practice run of this because in your case study, but what can people do to continue to connect with you? Or where can they go?
Yeah, so if you want to learn more about our Anti Social framework, you can just go to HollyMariehaynes.com/social, you're gonna get all the podcast episodes we just chatted about, you know that I'm behind the scenes answering the questions, but I think in this case, you can see the hand raisers. You can see the nurture sequence that we just talked through, it'd be a really cool experience to really listen to this podcast and then see it in play.
Oh, yes. Okay. I didn't even think about that. But that is so true. It's like this is like the true behind the scenes. Like if you want the details, you gotta go opt in. If even for your own research, so we'll make sure to link Holly's links to get that below. So go check out the show notes if you're listening, or the YouTube description if you're watching. Thank you again, Holly, for joining us.
Yeah, thank you so much.
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