Hello and welcome to down to earth a podcast created by the Environmental charity hubbub. This season is all about fashion. Because would you believe it the fashion industry produces 10% of all carbon emissions and clothing production has roughly doubled since 2000. Alongside that one garbage truck full of clothes is being burned or dumped in landfill every second. So we want to discover why we're buying so much, and how our wardrobes impact the world around us. I'm Sarah Duyvil. And I've been working in the environmental space for seven years. But I've always been a big shocker. I love fashion and I love new clothes. And however much I learn about what the fashion industry is up to, I still find fast fashion a hard habit to break. And I find it really difficult to know how to dress sustainably. I know I'm not alone in that feeling. So I want to bring you with me as we meet the designers, experts and changemakers who unpick why our wardrobes aren't working for us and for the planet. Have you ever wondered what most of our clothes are actually made from? I didn't know this. But apparently about two thirds of all textile fibres are synthetic. And more than half are made from oil based polyester, which means they're basically a plastic. But a lot of us don't have any idea what our clothes are made from or even what the alternatives could be. I definitely don't. And I was really interested in finding out more about the actual fabrics that make up our clothes because they're such a huge part of the supply chain, which is pretty invisible when you get to the end product. And also because changing the way that we produce these fabrics or even changing the kinds of fabrics that we choose to buy can have a really massive impact on the environment. Luckily, when I was researching this episode, I knew just the right person to speak to Dr. Michael Scheffer was born into a textiles family. His father was a textile chemist and his mother was a textile designer in the Lancashire textile industry. Currently, he's the project manager for sustainable textiles a Dutch University. He's also the chairman of the Dutch investment deal in professional education, and a chairman of the cultural heritage and climate change fund on behalf of the Dutch Minister for Education, Culture and Science. So if anyone can answer our questions about fabric and fill us in on why fabric production is so important, when we think about sustainability, it's him. I hope that you enjoy our chat. Hello, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you. It's pleasure being here with you, from the Netherlands,
I usually begin all the way from the Netherlands,
always start so far, it's an AMA, in the war known as a bridge not too far, because this was the last British the British could take in the Battle of Harlem.
So today, I mean, this podcast is all about sustainable fashion. And we're looking from a different angle of sustainable fashion every week. And we wanted to talk to you because I think fibre is something that people don't know a lot about. They don't know, what their clothes are made from where those fibres comes from. So I wanted to ask you, why we should be thinking about fibre in what we're wearing, or what eating what fibre is why we should be thinking about it in terms of fashion,
which we have to think about fibres because almost all textiles are made from fibres. The exception, you may if you call leather or leather, textile leather is not really a fibre in the proper sense. And it's long time ago that people were still Middle Ages, people were doing that for battles, but it's not that any more use of fibres is 99.5% of textiles. So it's important to look at the second thing is that in terms of of co2 footprint, the fibre components are substantial besides just the need to to fuel machines, its fibres the essential component and why fibres is so important is is that if as a world we want to be co2 neutral, by 2060, we should not use any longer any petroleum, fossil based fibre, so forget about polyesters forget about the polyimides. So that's about 75% of fibres we are using can no longer be used in 30 years time
and how have we got to a place where those kinds of fibres are so much of the market and so much of what we wear
Baby became many came because because the the big polyester manufacturers were able to design yarns that were also comfortable, so that in the shape of the fibre they also adopts they also take up moisture. It also helps that they are they are easily elastic and combined with ls 10. You have an elastic fibre soda. They also adhere closer to the body and To the price of polyester has declined by 16 times. So there are 16 times cheaper now than they were in 1970. Why cotton is more or less the same price, wood is slightly more expensive. This goes as remains almost stable. So it also price wise they're much cheaper. And a highly reliable I mean, you bump out to the petrol, you make NAFTA you make you make polyester out of NAFTA, you get everything every day the same quality, whereas with with cotton, or with wool or with linen, you're depending on the climate on the weather on Well, the skills of the of workers to have a constant quality, it's not so reliable, polyester is easy to bump up. It's highly reliable, not excellent. But but good enough for most consumers.
And what are the problems that that's causing environmentally, the fact that we're using so many more oil based fibres? And I guess also using more of all kinds of fibres, because our clothing production has increased dramatically?
Yeah, it's two different things. One thing is what why is it a problem to use synthetic fibres, polyester polyamide The first one is because at the end of their lifetime, they they are build a co2, which is not natural co2. So when you when you burn them, or landfill them, or even reused and they discharged co2, so to add to the climate change, that's one thing. And the second thing is that in us, so by using them by wearing them by Washington, especially they, they give out, they give out microplastics that end up in the sewage system, and ultimately, you know, in the rain and in the rivers and in the sea, that is to beneficials whereas, let's say that natural fibres are more co2 neutral, they, they absorb co2 When they grow. And they release it also at the end of the night. But it's it's it's, it's the cycle remains closed. And cotton and linen and wool, they're also shed market microparticles but they great, they're biodegradable,
what are the problems with trying to create more sustainable fabrics because it sounds like none of the ones that we're using at the moment aren't necessarily working for the environment in the way that we want them to, is there going to be a new fabric that comes out or a different way of creating fabrics that are already in existence that work better for the environment?
Well, one thing that should come back is I have a bunch of hemp here has been a very popular this bleached hemp at FAU, so I did myself so has this one, let's go can come back it was a major fibre in the 19 century, we've lasted more or less over the last 100 years. So that is one possibility. The other possibility is to use I also have an example here. This is basically wood chips, wood, that the woody parts of Hamlet and and to make viscose a viscose is also an artificial fibre but made of wood for and it's got been made a stroll and all kind of agricultural residues we have on in on earth around 3 billion tonnes of agricultural residues a year. So if we convert 3% of that into into into fibres, we have solved the problem.
What happens if everyone goes great, hence the one that's make everything I've heard that sustainable fibre do we run into another problem again, where we're we have a monoculture we're only using one kind of fibre?
Well, it's I mean, we have to reduce a fibre consumption. And, and a we and our is basically Europe and USA. Now we buy something like 30 kilos a year, if we would have a behaviour of buying as much as people in middle income countries do like Mexico or turkey 10 kilos a year, that would reduce the problem a lot. So we have to to to spend our money in a better way that we do now regarding fashion and textiles. So that's one thing because whatever combination we use, the world cannot sustain a fibre consumption of have none 50 million tonnes. So the one is is less is more. So better, better fibre production. I think we have to keep cotton that cotton must be much better cultivated than it does now. So there are good examples. But another country that uses too much water, poor working conditions. And basically to improve cotton we have to double the price. Even if we double the price cotton is cheaper than hand. Hemp is an interesting and interesting crop for farmers. It's an interesting crop also in terms of properties like flax, but we are not used to produce anymore. So we have to invest a lot 10s of millions of euros 10s of billions of pounds in, in, in scaling up the manufacturing of hand fibres, because we simply know we have no longer capacities. It's not very complicated. I mean, I've been making some in my in my kitchen. But that's, of course, it's been it'll be hours to make a kilo, which is not affordable. Oh, we have to scale other technology to treat to process hence,
EBIT. You had some examples of places where cotton was being made in a good way. Could you explain what those are? Where is cotton being made? Well,
cotton can be a good crop, provided that on a surplus is only rain sent. So only the rainfall enables the growth of cotton. And that is the case, for example, in in Africa, and most in Africa, in Brazil is arranged that crop irrigation is needed than the best irrigation irrigation through the roots. So that's not it doesn't evaporate, all the water is absorbed by the plant. That's, that's, let's say an exception. What is also important with cotton is that the cotton growers and workers get a decent wage. Because the main problem with cotton is that it's often family business. And it gets worked for for nope for nothing. So that's also an important condition. And the third one would basically to foster cotton with a stronger fibre on longer fibre fibre that basically lasts longer. And that's a complicated one. Because to have a longer fibre, you need more pesticide, or you need that you need better pest control because basically when the tests a bug goes into a cotton, it eats the fibre and nice and shorter and longer and longer cotton can be can have another life because it can be chemically and mechanically recycles. And that's important. Now, most of the cotton is too short to recycle. And therefore most cotton has been the way viscose of polyester and polyester cotton viscose blend is awful to recycle, it's impossible to recycle
on using more pesticides, and making a longer fibre how much would that affect the health of the soil in places where those pesticides are used? You're gonna get a knock on problem later down the line.
I have to correct myself, we should not use more pesticides, we should use natural, natural methods of pest control by introducing other animals. Yeah, so it's called regenerative agriculture and the earth which might help as well cotton has become an annual plant and some, although it's a perennial, so maybe the impact on the environment is lower. If it's a perennial plant, so you grow it's the plant grows up, keeps on the field, and you harvest it every year. Now we basically harvest the whole the whole plant replanted, that's also having a poor impact.
And I've heard the word regenerative farming us talking about food and pharmaceutical in that way. I've never heard it in fashion before. And I wonder what the incentives would be for textile production to change in that way where regenerative regenerative farming becomes normal for cotton production for linen production.
World The annoying thing is that them for the textile short firms, there's no real benefit of having regenerative farming. It's also a topic. Let's say the largest cotton using retailer only uses 1% of the world's production. So that's even Tyne. However there are growers who are working towards benefits of textiles that the most advanced one is happens to have the same name as I have the Shettar group in Brazil. And they work for PVH for Tommy Hilfiger, for example. So and Tommy Hilfiger takes an interest in regenerative agriculture, because it's really one of the exceptions. Few few retailers rule few textile manufacturers have an interest. The other exception is a turkey, the Turkish industry also because Turkey is integrated, said they have gotten cotton cultivation in Turkey spinning, weaving clothing, making some some Turkish brands are also a bit regenerative textiles, but it's rather exceptions and rules. And that's because it's, it's not well organised. There is no good organisation of the cotton industry to really foster regenerative methods.
And how do we change that? How do we you know, if we want an industry that's gonna mean that our soil is healthier that we have enough water that people are being paid enough how can we put pressure on industries to make those changes?
When they bought the thing is I gave a set of lectures over the last three years about cotton and about the polyester and co2 problems. And I gave some even on Sunday morning, people think fine how Do you music and interesting and entertaining, but then they go for lunch. So so it doesn't come home. It doesn't really get through them that in 30 years we have to get rid of polyester and said yes is quick because 30 years is around it is about lifetime of a factory. So people in session don't realise any serious people don't realise the issue. And that's because professional people have lost the material, the material touch the reality that there is agriculture. And that's because it is disjointed. I mean, my my grandfather had a flex mill and my other grandsire file file and had a textile mill they were 20 clumps from each other. They realised that what one was making was going to the other one nowadays is so globalised, people don't realise the interactions between them.
Yeah, actually, in another interview that we've done with this podcast, we speak to Amy Pountney, who runs a brand called mother of pearl in England. And she sets out to try and make a completely sustainable collection. So she goes to the wall maker and tries to find out where the wool comes from. And then she goes to the spinner and tries to find out what form they're getting the wall from and there was really no way for her to find out where all of these different parts were coming from because it was going to nine different countries before the fabric even ended up in the factory where her clothes were being made. So it seems like the process is just completely mystifying and enormous,
no big is because we have been chasing for lower costs and we've been chasing for scale. So basically each each step of Textiles is optimised to its necessities and then you get a very global scale I mean, wars grows and grows on on on sheep in Australia, the first processing there are mainly in China, then apart may go to Italy to spin and weave done the making up maybe in Eastern Europe or Northern Africa. So, so these Chetan has become quite long, and flex is very labour intensive. So there we have the reverse, we have flux that grows in northern France, then 95% is shipped to China to be spent over there. Part of this comes back as as woven sponsors shirts. So we've totally broken down the value chains basically justify the costs of each stage themselves. So partly we should go back to what we had 100 years ago, clusters of manufacturers that are very close to each other and then sort of times that the sheep were on the Yorkshire hills, the spinners and weavers were in Bradford and Leeds. And the clothing makers were well Manchester matches a Yorkshire as well. And so partly we have to go back to that model.
And how likely do you think it is that we can move away from this huge globalised model we already have where you know, things are being sent to wherever the labour is cheapest. Do you think we'd ever get to a place where a textile industry comes back to places like the UK in a big way?
Or the UK does not. But Europe is feasible. And the reason why I'm sceptical about uk uk hasn't invested in vocational training for the last six years. So it simply lacks the skills of spinners, weavers, knitters, dyers that's gone. Country has forgotten to invest. Whereas in Portugal, in Italy, in some Eastern European countries, those skills are still there. Even France has got more than than than the UK. So So let's abstract from the UK. It's, I mean, still still, Europe employs 1.6 million people in the textiles. That's today. Anecdotal, it's quite substantial. It is half than it was 30 years ago, but there's still 1.6 million. But that's only about 5% of world production. So I could imagine we could imagine a model that 10% of world production is in Europe. It will never be 50%. Again, as as it was a few years ago. That's that's unlikely. But we are a bit we are in a better position than the US, USA UK. All skills are gone.
Yeah, generationally, I think it's something that's just completely dropped out of, of practice. And actually, a lot of the places that I know that do produce in the UK, a lot of them are working with women's refugee groups. They're not women who were born in England, they women who lead these skills have moved over to England, so bringing them with them rather than having led them here.
When I worked in the UK when I was young, my mother saw the work and textile industry when they were young. My grandfather worked in UK when he was young. So up to the 1980s England was a seedbed of talent and it's cool to learn industrial skills but that's got you got Brexit is that and I think I think there's a link between those two is because because the UK lost skills that people get became angry and voted against the EU but it doesn't solve anything. I mean you the UK has to as UK as a future in in St needs to invest massively in skills. And they haven't seen any investment in the last five years.
And what about those places where, you know, essentially work is just being sent out, it's a farm or a factory, the clothes or the fibres being made there and then being sent to another country to be sold. I imagine it's unlikely that a lot of the cargoes in Africa are going to end up wearing the clothes that eventually get produced.
Well, this, there's some things happening. So of course, we have countries, you have countries like China, where basically they have fibre production, spinning, weaving, knitting, clothing, baking. However, at the end, clothing making is becoming too expensive in China. So Vietnam is picking up on the final stage of production. So you get a combination of Chinese fabrics made up of Vietnam or made up in the rest of Asia. India is vertically integrated. Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh are quite complementary. They have everything in that zone as well. So you see combinations of them. So you see a new Sri Lanka Cordwell Sri Lankan clothing made of Pakistani fabrics, Bangladeshi clothing make made of Indian yarns, that is quite feasible. And there is it has always been difficult to industrialise in Africa. But there are some big investments going on in some countries to start spinning. And wheezing, African cotton, especially for the CNS, fashionable products like bed, linen, Bath, bath towels, and so on. Kitchen, were basically it's another fabric and it's mainly whites, or, or you can die it's or just woven in Africa and died or printed in Europe to be more fashionable. So that that's there is there is something happening in Africa, that was not happening well until 10 years ago, in countries like between Kenya, Tanzania also, Togo. So the different ones that industrialising.
And can you talk a little bit you mentioned microplastics. And I wonder what the damage of these fibres breaking down, actually, is that I'm thinking of all the clothes that we know get dumped in the Atacama Desert, or the clothes that we know, end up probably in the bin and might break down as microplastics end up in the ocean? What kind of issues are they causing?
What it's important to, to be more specific here. That at first, not all, not all polyester discharge the same level of microplastics. So the way it's been, the way the fibres made, the way it's been made, ways knitted or woven, already matters. So a closely knit, polyester doesn't shed as much microplastics and a fleece. Job. So that's one difference, you can control your process better. So let's say hi engineered polyester plant will enter design, or make yarns that are fibres that that shed off less microplastics and then poorly made polyester. So there are differences, they work the way of making it better. And there's also a way to, to reduce, to reduce it by having the gardens pre washed, so that they're washed, pre washed industrially. So basically, and if you wash industrially, it's always absorbed that say in a in a water is what it should be absorbed in a water treatment plant. That also may also help as also helps if we, if we fit all our washing machines at home with a filter that would reduce the microplastic load a lot. So that is one side to it's to be very blunt, that the reason why best textiles end up in deserts, is because in some countries of the world, the recycling business not one organised. That's simply the reason. Because if you if you discard clothing as a retailer or as a city, you can either It depends how you tender, the collection of the waste. And basically, in the Netherlands, most cities tender it out to specialists that basically sort all the textiles. And the poorest parts is Burke's, it's not good, but it's burned, you recover energy. And you have that said to lower cost one basically they buy the old stuff, and then they break into Africa and they start sorting there. And then they take the best out and bring it back to Europe and the rest of it remains there. And the discharging does is because it's the cheapest solution. So it's not that it's the fundamental problem is basically poor organisation, or shifting should the entrepreneurship and lazy and lazy public authorities in terms of of tendering the waste? So that's that's an organisational issue. However, if better organised, as most textiles have no value secondhand and the fibres are blended. They are They will be burned and burned basically means that well, at best we, we recover energy. But in a country like Netherlands, we don't have the luxury anymore. We hardly have any public authority that sends us the stuff to Africa.
So it's all getting burned.
Yeah, because it's too poor to it has the fibres or short tube or the blends, it's the worst the value of of reusing or reselling, or recycling is too low.
I have a question about recycling actually haven't talked about it. But how has fabric recycling moved on, I know that the last time that I heard you speak, you just touched on fabric recycling. And it's a really difficult thing to do. Because a lot of fibres are mixed. A lot of things are really bad quality, it's not always easy to recover it but I assume that we can't just keep using virgin fibres to keep making clothes.
Well, a lot of retailers and brands realise that to change. So one of the big topics now is when people call mono mono fibre or mono polymer materials. So there is a field that that we should stop blending, or, or at least stop blending, without thinking about it. So that's something that has been changing over the last few years. larger retailers larger brands need need to weigh some take. What Easy, easy solution sign and the idea of recycling PET bottles into into textiles in a very clever because a bottle is easily recyclable. Once you made a jacket out of it a jacket is is tougher to recycle. So it's not always clever, but at least people as retailers try to do their best. So that's that's moving on. The problem was that we have so much demand that basically there's a lot of poor cotton, but poor best cotton and polyester getting on the market. And so that's why we should consume less. And it goes higher sandals on cotton quality, polyester quality.
And do you think we're going to see more recycling in the coming decades? Do you think it's going to be more common that you give your jumper to somebody and it gets recycled and 10? Something new?
Yeah, there will be more recycling. So don't be fooled by being in Europe, I'm not aware of the UK, in Europe. There's, there's going to be compulsory separate collection of textiles by 2025. That will help I don't know how to do it in UK. So we expect a lot of and we expect by 2030 a ban on exporting waste textile waste. So so that means that by 2030, we should be able to recycle 9 million tonnes of textiles a year. That's only nine is about 8% of world product world consumption. Okay. So yeah, it is going to expand. But some people expect us expansion but be realistic on the global basis. It's a huge feast feat if we have attained 10 50 million tonnes of recycling by 2030. And that's only 16% done and now it's around one. So So yes, it will go for one to face team, it will have to go to 80% by 2030 or East match 2014
I guess you would hope that what's gonna happen is consumption will come down as recycling comes up and we read some kind of equilibrium.
Well, that's not even realistic, realistic will be that we are able to stabilise consumption at 110 million tonnes, the recycling will go up by a base will go up as well. And basically the growth of consumption developing countries will be matched by a decline of consumption to richer countries. And in general, we will promote reuse or recycling. So it's all of all of all of the above.
Everything coming together. Yeah. And what do you think of I mean, there are a lot of there's a lot of buzz about new, new cool fibres. I'm thinking about like I see a lot about 10 cell I see a lot about mushroom leather, lots of things being made from materials that people might not expect to be made from Do you think that's going to become more common as well that we see more of those kinds of fibres?
Will you we will suddenly see more often sell like fibre so called Low sell. Their production has doubled over the last 10 years it's very likely to double as well. And doubling 10 cell or nya cell is 100,000 tonnes. If we double mushroom by eight send us dance and that's tiny. Mushroom is an interesting product but it's not a replacement for leather. Because leather is animals living for four or five years with winter summer, so they get stronger over time. Mushroom is made in a weeks. So it started saying that subs replacing it and their shoes, they can live for 10 you can use a For 1020 years and mushroom shoes, in one or two years there are there are spoiled. So yes, there will be alternatives. But the most fancy alternate is yet tiny in terms of size of of initiatives. So I expect you will need scale to fight for yes, you need to kill. So I expect a lot of baseball yeses. But I don't expect a lot from from all these small tiny initiatives because very few of them are picked up by by by big capital.
And my final question that we ask all of our guests is, what do you think the biggest changes that the industry could make tomorrow to build a more sustainable fashion industry? And what do you think one thing that people listening at home can do?
Well, the first one, of course, is don't buy something new unless you really need it. That's the first thing the second thing is the first thing the second thing you could do don't buy blends. By buy pure wool by pure cotton by pure polyester, even polyester but don't buy blends because any blends is difficult to recycle. So that's the second thing I would advise if you if people buy cotton let them buy better cotton or let's say a cotton with a trademark with a green trademark though there are several ones of them I also advise I tried to buy all the only European so made to Italy Made in France, but that's an expensive choice. So doesn't come cheap. Unethical quality slightly better than made in Asia. Because there is there is still in Europe a culture of quality that that helps us well so always look at the label and all the large retail brands have a label with a maiden because those non EU countries ask for it. So if so that's always worthwhile to look at what the other is always break bring back the clothing you don't want either to thrift shop or to a charity or put it if it's in your in your city put it in in separate ways connected. So basically we're going to be reused never throw it in the in the kitchen bag.
And what about the industry what could they do tomorrow to make the biggest change
the best thing the industry could do is to stop designing products with blenders fibres.
Easy for
dads not so easy because it cost them money as another blends are made because it makes it another blends are used because it's cheaper than pure a pure was more expensive though with polyimide. So separate manufacture very cleverly combining fibres in order to have the same look at lower price.
And that's the end of my chat with Dr. Michael Schaeffer. I hope that you enjoyed it. I really liked his tip of trying to choose unmixed fabrics where you can rather than mix one so 100% cotton or 100% polyester because it means it's way easier to recycle when that product comes to the end of its life. And I think it's also a really good habit to get into to just check the label whenever you're buying something so you know what it's made from, you know where it's produced, you know how to wash it, but maybe it's something we can all start every time that we buy something new. If you want some more tips on how to live sustainably at home then go and follow us at hubbub on Instagram on tick tock on Twitter or if you feel like it you can even email into the show. Our email is Hello at hubbub to org.uk and if you're quick enough, I might read it out on next week's programme. This show was presented by me Sarah duyvil and produced by le de
