14 231129 Gaslighting and Brainwashing - Are You Making This Up?

8:04PM Dec 20, 2023

Speakers:

Meredith Holley

Megan Goering Mellin

Keywords:

gaslighting

work

brainwashing

reality

experience

power

perspective

feel

validate

meredith

mistakes

people

dynamic

situation

workplace

valid

boss

conversation

question

coming

Today we're talking about gaslighting and brainwashing Are you making this up? Sometimes in the workplace, we end up feeling spun out like we have been having an altered experience of reality, or we are stuck silenced in a parallel universe where no one can validate or agree with us, or affirm that in fact, what we're experiencing is actually happening. Sometimes it seems like everybody else is on the same page and we are very much not on that page and there's nothing we can do. So today, we are going to get into this conversation. What is gaslighting? What is brainwashing? What do you do when you feel like you are stuck in your own parallel reality? And we'll talk about some options for how we can choose to communicate at work to make it through these messy moments and move into a different situation. So first, Meredith, help us out here, gaslighting and brainwashing Gen Z. I just heard this term Gen alpha also, I think they're too young to speak now, but they're they're working on it. gaslighting and brainwashing are much more common terms now than I feel like they were 1015 years ago. And also like tick tock generation. There's different words and meanings and we don't always get the full picture. So how do you think about defining gaslighting and brainwashing? The gaslighting

and brainwashing both tend to happen when there are people are having two different experiences of reality and then one person is being questioned or forced to agree with a version of reality that's not there's gaslighting happens when we question someone's reality question someone's sanity question someone's experience, and in an attempt to force them to agree with our reality, or with a community version of reality. Brainwashing happens and is similar, but it's usually tied more to coercive pressure to agree with a group idea, a group way of thinking and sometimes that pressure is financial, sometimes that pressure is physical, sometimes that pressure is social. But both can have both are honestly very common experiences that we have. In reality, we usually associate associate them with like cults or, or even like spirituality, religion. Those are spaces where we tend to talk about it but I think when Ivor there is a power dynamic differential of any kind, there is some kind of risk that someone is going to experience gaslighting or brainwashing. And the thing that I've come to realize is that although the action of gaslighting is questioning someone's sanity questioning someone's reality, pressuring someone to agree to your version of reality, there are also experiences that people have that we'll kind of talk about, where maybe the person in power isn't meaning to pressure anyone to change their reality, but because of that power dynamic, that effect the impact is still the same. And the same can be true with brainwashing. I've seen I always say, like, I like to watch quote, documentaries. And I always say I really like gurus and cult leaders, but I'm afraid of cult followers, because they have such like an intense groupthink brainwashing system that gets set up, where if you deviate from the group norm, you're totally cast out or even sometimes financially penalized, physically penalized. Like there are all these consequences that the group set up that cause people to adhere to some pretty wild belief systems and and things like that. Go

in that situation. Well, I'm not gonna go too deep on that because I'm deeply obsessed and I'm going to continue pulling the thread later about your deep love for cool documentaries and this delicious opinion. We're like called leaders. Okay, fine. I get it cult followers terrifying, like get me out of there. So on the brainwashing front, like at work, it kind of feels like drink the Kool Aid or else Yannick we'd be like the boss. This is where I'll bring the the kind of documentary shows back and it could be the boss that's generating that it also could be your colleagues. Right? They're generating it too. It's like, well, we all believe XYZ thing. And it could be, you know, of course, it could be the workplace. It could be community organizations or other settings of leadership, you're on a board somewhere, and they're like, but don't we all agree with the viewpoint of the company? And it like gets this kind of vibe that way? Right. gaslighting, you're saying is questioning someone's reality, to kind of get them to agree to something else. And is that more of like the form? That's not a thing, where you're where you're kind of like minimizing it or dismissing it away?

It can be another example that's really common is he, he had a really different perspective than you. He's been really different things than you. He thought that one

of you must be right. And one of you must be wrong. Yeah. Because it's like there is this is maybe the thing where it's like, some people are like, oh, there is one objective reality. Yours is a subjective reality, though. Yeah. And his words gets pushed

to the side. Yes. I mean, you see this with sexual assault, a lot of times, you know, people and even I talked to a lot of survivors, or victims, or however, like people who have encountered abusive behavior in that area. And a lot of times they'll say it ahead of time, like, Well, I was too drunk that night. Well, I was, I shouldn't have worn that dress. Well, maybe I knew I shouldn't have gotten into that party. Like, like, we have a culture that sets up so much gaslighting, particularly with women around that experience, that we ahead of time anticipate that somebody's going to say your reality of having experienced violence is not valid. Yeah, so I think in the workplace, a lot of times, you see, you see this, where it's even that experience of that, that women experience a lot of times of having an idea that having the man or a man repeat the idea, and then all of a sudden, everybody agrees with it like that, that can be a form of brainwashing or gaslighting, depending on the dynamic of it, where people are not validating your experience of reality that you have had this idea, you do work for a certain boss, and you bring it to the table, then the boss gets the credit. Like that can feel and that can feel because it doesn't validate your reality like experience of of brainwashing. We've also talked about being

like, do I even exist, right? Or like, am I here? Are we in the same room, and I think the pattern I put I'm pulling out is like yours must not be as valid as theirs. There's this like hierarchy of them. And I think even I think even our men, I think those are non women listeners are also like going to get this one as well, because it's like people who are higher in the rank order than you people love the bosses a year and a certain kind of way, it's all sorts of this power game situation. And gaslighting over time can function to brainwash you, if if you continue to get convinced out of your reality or that yours is lesser. If you create this thing that's like, why would I even say anything anymore? Like it's easier to just not bother thinking and saying it because it's just constantly revert to like, whatever the group seeing is where the consensus is located.

And I've had clients honestly, who have come to me and I've said, Well, you know, like, one of the tests for coming back to yourself is if you're walking down the street, and someone who is clearly having mental health problems comes up to you and says, You have ugly purple hair. Do you believe them? One Do you have purple hair and two, purple hair is always beautiful. So you know it's not true? No, it's not true. And and I've had clients be like, No, I literally would believe them because they've been so absorbed into a brainwashing system or gaslighting system that they are so trained to question their own reality. Like I had one client say to me one time, if you told her she pointed at a plant on my desk and said, If you told me this wasn't a plant, I would believe you. Like I she just had such a fragmented sense because she had been gaslit and brainwashed for so long. She had such like a sense that other people's experience of reality was more valid than hers. But then, I mean, in my own experience, before when I when I had my sexual harassment experience at one point. Like I've had, I've, I feel like I've had this experience on both sides. I guess, for example, like when I had my sexual harassment experience, I went to a female supervisor pretty early on like before things had really started and I said, Hey, I think I think there's some kind of dynamic with this guy that's not totally professional like I just want to make Sure, I'm showing up really professionally and that I like that this workplace is about the job for me. Do you have any advice about this? And she said, Well, I'm really surprised to hear you say that, because this other woman worked with him for a long time. And she never said anything like that. And she's really pretty. And that kind of dynamic as an example, like just, I sort of knew that she was in Iran about it, but I was reluctant to then bring that issue up again, because it had been framed like, I'm saying that I'm pretty

cool like that. If that were true, somebody else would have also said it. Yes. Not necessarily a thing. Yeah. Right. Like, like Lassie is coming to you. And it's like, Tim is in the well. And you're like attendees in the well, we would know by now because we would have heard a splash. And last, he's like, Look, I'm a dog. Like, I know, I know, Timmy. Like, I'm trying to give you signals here. But they're like, why is this dog losing its mind? You know? It's like, No, I mean, those are those are all kind of cognitive distortions a bit. It's like, Well, if that's if there was such a thing as climate change, we would have already known by now it's like, okay, maybe, but like, you just also said words. And that doesn't make the thing you're saying true. But like, in your situation, when you get that feedback? Are you going to be like, No, she wasn't that pretty? Or like, What are you saying, I'm not like the the I don't know, if it's like a thought stopping comment. But like it shut the feed, the way that you got that feedback, shut down, your ability to get, like a second read on the actual situation, it put you in kind of like a stopped situation. And one of

the things that I realized about it later is that I, I honestly, in that situation was not seeking validation of my experience, I was just looking for advice about how to show up with good boundaries, I wouldn't have been able to articulate it that way at that point, but that was what I was looking for. But because my because she undermined instead of validating my experience that had a big impact on me and my ability to continue to seek help and seek support. On the other hand, after like, you know, that was many, many, many years ago. And now, I've had all these experiences of having my own employees working with my own employees, and the amount of power that you have, as someone who employs other people, and the amount of power that other people attribute to you that you don't necessarily think you have yourself. And I had, this was the power

you have or like, when we're in managerial roles, there's the power we have. And then there's also the fear that people show up with. And that can create a power dynamic, or, or just accentuate it. And of course, we don't know like, when I'm, when you're showing up to that workplace, or when I show up to mind, I have no idea. What are my personal fears? Versus like, what is the power dynamic with this person, all I know, is they could fire me, like they have decision making authorities that I don't have. And so even fears that I'm bringing unconsciously without realizing it, like those will be activated. If I the more I care about the role and want to keep it because I don't want to tick them off. And, and, you know, if they tick me off, I can't fire them. I take them off, like anything could happen and that asymmetry of even even just an asymmetry of fear, right can create a power dynamic. Right,

right. So in my experience, I had this experience, some years back, where I had an assistant who was amazing, she did amazing work. She was like, totally to me a partner in the job. She was really fun. She understood the work I did. She was really passionate about the clients and really thoughtful and she like every other human made some mistakes. And we were taking on this was when I was doing a lot of civil rights litigation. So we were taking on a lot of cases, in part because she was really also passionate about it. And so she would convince me to take cases I'd be like, Oh, we gotta take that case. You're right. But she was just really fun to work with and amazing. And she really had a hard time when she made a mistake with the fact that I wasn't mad at her about it. And I had a very different experience of the mistakes she was making than she did like to me the mistakes she was making. I had made 5000 times also so they just seemed normal to me and they like in the context that I have. They just weren't normal and they were how things go. And she ended

up unpreventable. It just you weren't disturbed by it. Also, for those of you listening, Meredith Holley is one of my favorite I was I would say you're a non perfectionist. Let's say you have strong opinions, but that you're not you're also less I know we do we, I think the first time we talked you were like, yeah, the secret is like, sometimes we do B plus work. Like, if you're writing an article, like a blog article or something or a newsletter, it's like, no, if your purpose is interrupting oppression, then do the B plus, or B, or whatever, get it out there. Obviously, like with legal cases, you have different standards, but like, generally speaking, you're not as like, hampered by perfectionism, or like over achieving and never getting anything wrong. No,

I think one of the things that you learn as a lawyer is that there are some things that you have to like, check 10 times that do need to be correct. But the systems are so complicated that we use that you just are always going to make some mistakes, and most mistakes are just recoverable. And then you just correct it. And you do have to kind of build some tolerance for mistakes in the law. With having like working hard, being detail oriented, you know, you still try but because the systems are so complex, you just do make a certain amount of mistakes. And, and mistakes are part of learning. I mean, I think in some ways, it is that put out the B minus work thing. And I had a mentor who used to say she was like a business mentor, and she would always say to us, you guys, my shit is janky like, put out janky shit, if it's going to help people, like just go test it, see what's going to work. And I think that that is valuable. On the law side, we do double check things, triple check things, but and then even then sometimes you just make a mistake, and then you just correct it. And they're just all these systems in place for how you correct it, you know? Because people

already knew about that. I just I wanted people to have that context. Because like, when you're like, Oh, I didn't really care. Let it because literally the story, everyone is going to come up where someone's like, oh, but like, I'm failing and you're not telling me emeritus like, these mistakes are like there is this whole other context, right? Because Meredith knows the law. She knows the system. She's been through it. And you're like these are recoverable. This is all kind of like scuffling on the court or whatever. This is what happens like there will be black streaks on the basketball court, like it will occur. We're not going to have a perfectly spick and span house all the time. Like this is not how it

works. Also, at the same time now, in retrospect, I had been doing legal work for like, almost like, like 17 years or something at that point, like I had been a legal assistant for a really long time before I went to law school. Like, I've been in this world for a really long time. So I had way more context than this amazing person who worked with me

or she was and she was like, Aren't you mad at me, I'm making mistakes. And she

ended up leaving and saying that she had looked into what gaslighting is, and that she knew that even though she knew I wouldn't intend to gaslight somebody that that was her experience. And it really hit me hard. And at first, I was kind of defensive about it and felt like it was unfair. And then later, I really realized that I had not taken the time to sit and validate her experience and sit with her that although her experience was different than mine of the work that she was doing, it was valid and she is allowed to have her perspective, like my perspective is not better than hers, hers was entirely valid. And like, I like I just offer that because I think that people can really get defensive and really get self protective when someone else uses that language around them. And I think at the end of the day, even if we are not intending to gaslight, someone our reality especially when we're someone who has strong opinions can feel really impactful on other people. And I think that there is that room to take the extra step of not just not gaslighting somebody not just not questioning their reality or trying to impose intentionally your reality on other people. But there's the next step of really taking that space to step back. And make sure you understand the other person's reality reflected back understanding of what they're telling you, and validate that their perspective is legitimate because they're a human and this is their, their experience of the world.

It's almost like, it's like if somebody comes in they're like, look, XYZ is true. You have ugly purple hair, and you're like, Okay, hang on a second, because you could be like, No, I don't you know, obviously that was a joke. You'd be like No, I don't you're deranged or like that is not correct. Look at the mirror my hair is not you know, and fall into this like trap almost of like this tug of war. But you know, because As the purple hair example is so wacky, it's like someone's like you have ugly purple hair. I think there is another way that I've learned from you to kind of step back and be like, Okay, hang on, let's sit back for a second, before we defend, before we discount their perspective, before we discard it, just being like, hang on wait, actually, this does not match up with the fact pattern that I am in the rhythm of proceeding with. And so there's a moment to stop and be really almost radically curious and be like, Okay, hang on. What if I imagine that it almost certainly makes sense, given this person's life experience, that they are saying what they're saying, I just don't know what their life experiences. And I'm like, hang on, I heard, I think I heard you say, I have ugly purple hair. Am I getting that? Right? And they're like, yes, your hair is ugly, and purple. And I'm like, okay, you know, there is a moment to just clarify. And then who knows? I mean, this is a silly example. But it's like, I don't know, do they actually have they thought that brown and purple are the same color because they're colorblind, and my hair is brown. Right? And like, by ugly, maybe they're trying to say, like, you're about to take a picture, like this is going to go on the front page of a magazine forever. Like, this is not what your hair was looking like five minutes ago. And like, I don't want you to hate me. But I am really nervous. And so I'm trying to stop this photoshoot from pissing you off forever so that you can me right? And they're like, coming all flapped, you know? Because this to them is like, their job is on the line, right? And then I'm like, Okay, I think I'm now hearing you say, my ponytail got weird. And they're like, yes, your ponytail got weird. And I was so scared to tell you. But like, I felt like I had to you know, it, of course, it's not going to go like that every time. But being like, hey, wait a minute, like walk me through this, like the trying to have it makes sense for a minute so that you can get what's on their side of the table is a different step than being like, no one ever says that around here. Like nobody thinks that you know, or just brushing them off kind of

Yeah. And I think that it, I think that that's totally right. And I think what you're what you're hitting on, is that question of? Is there any feedback? Is there any gold that we can take from this experience, even if it's painful on either side. And I also think another important component of it is, like, when I'm doing mediations, or facilitations, I always say the three rules of a challenging conversation to follow our consent, acknowledge power dynamics, and identify them explicitly. And then the gut brain relationships. So make sure that you've had enough water, make sure you've eaten food, have you slept? Are you in the right space to have this challenging conversation. And I think that what you're hitting on also speaks to that power dynamic component. If we're the person in the lower power dynamic, and that can be in a lot of different ways. So it can be a financial power dynamic, we could be the employee with a boss. It could also be a social power dynamic. Like in workplaces, a lot of times there are people who have certain social power, or we perceive them to have certain social power, like this person is friends with the boss, this person, everybody is the coolest kid in the workplace, whatever that is. If we can know ahead of time, do I see myself as being on the lower power dynamic? Is that built into the structure of the workplace? Or am I just seeing myself that way? Right? Am I the boss, but because of social dynamics, I see myself as having lower social power, and we can unpack those. I think that there are different ways that we need to approach the question of gaslighting and brainwashing because if we are the boss, in a space, there is certain power that we have built into that space. And if we don't own that power, and own the influence that we have, then we can't encounter another person's reality as easily in a productive and healthy way.

Yeah, and and I think the impact of that, that you're kind of pointing to and this situation your employee was like, I don't think you intend this right. And it's not I don't know if she experiences violent or something, but it's like she's like, I keep waiting for the boot to drop right into this. Whether we intend it or not. There is the stuff in psychology or like some people's therapy that's like anticipation on a biochemical level functions is reality. Like waiting for the thing to happen waiting for the thing. And then she's like, I'm, I'm positive you're mad at me and you're like, I'm not mad. Aren't you like it doesn't resolve it. But like the there is like this alternate conversation in a situation where people genuinely do not want to be gaslighting each other, right? And sometimes like manipulating you, and it's trying to guess this would not work in a situation where you're like, Okay, wait, are we actually just missing each other? Do I think that this, you know, I hate the terms good faith and bad faith? But like, would we fix this? If we could, right now? How confident do I feel? And then when that's really tangled? I just think it I think I've learned a lot from you that like when we are in the higher place in that hierarchy, if someone thinks we're holding a knife as the boss, and we're like, no, no, we're just besties. And they're like, Yeah, but your job gives you access to a knife that you can use to cut my computer cord off, you know, and then I don't have an email address anymore. And you're like, No, like, I but I just I don't think we're partners, right? And then we're not, but like, if we can't acknowledge the power differential, and like the, the imbalance and the vulnerabilities of it, especially when both people care so much. Like you kind of told me about a situation I was facing recently. Like, if I'm in the power position, and I don't acknowledge that, then they can't feel safe,

right? Are weaponized, I think if you can't acknowledge especially if someone

feels you have a weapon, it's like, unless you're like, look, here's how we deal with, you know, terminations, all right. But if nobody talks about that other thing, nobody talks about, like, I'm actually really afraid of getting fired right now, or you don't realize that that's going on for them as the leader, then it doesn't function like a safe experience. And

I think when we talk about I think that's exactly right. And I think when we talk about something you said really stuck with me, of people who are intentionally gaslighting us. And I think that there are some, you know, there's like, two to 15% of the population are like true predators and are trying to do this stuff. But I think a more significant portion of and those people, we might just need to really look at our boundaries around, really get in touch with our reality, build that solid relationship with ourselves. But I think that there is a more significant portion of the population that just is very, very uncomfortable with diversity of IDEA and opinion, and, and that we've not been taught to be safe in a space where people have a different opinion or a different reality than us. And I think that, like there's so much focus, because even when we were talking about the situation that you had about acknowledging our power dynamics, and like other people, having that experience of us whether we have it or not, whether we think that we're friends or not, one of the topics that we're talking about is that we want to build community. And that's such a great thing to want to do, right? Like we want to have.

Specifically I was like, but I don't want to be in a power dynamic. Meredith like, I want this to be like a circle, like, this is us all coming together. But like, also, I'm respond. I mean, I'm building the circle, right? So I can like, I have the different powers in the circle. And you were like, I don't want

those herbs on the VN. I do want these other people who are amazing, right? I mean, but like it, it's real, right. And so a lot of times like with my supervisor when she was like this other person was really pretty and never said anything part of I think where we're coming from when we are gaslighting people, even if we're not intending to is we're uncomfortable with their version of reality, and we want to get out of it. And we want to get back to our version of reality or the version of reality that we were raised with or that feels normal or feels like community, like we're not necessarily attend intending to be aggressive against somebody else. But we still are like, that's still the impact. Like, for me, in my situation, it was more comfortable to me if my assistant was was okay with making mistakes. And so I was like, you should be comfortable with making mistakes, like because that's what I'm more comfortable with. But I didn't take that extra step to say like, it is valid to feel uncomfortable in this space. This is a big challenge. And I get it, you know, and let her reality be present, which is ultimately gaslighting.

Yeah. And also like, you know, if you go back and do it again, we were kind of workshopping this earlier. It's like, choosing how you're going to communicate about that like being like, okay, when is that coming up for you? And like, what do we want to do? Because I, you know, it's hard. You don't want her like holding it up and having six weeks of nightmares or something like that. But then, if she comes to you, and it's like, hi, like, you know, can you yell at me? I mess this thing up. And you're like, I'm not gonna yell at you. You know, it's like it's a non starter in some ways. So it's like, I think that's one other alternative. It's like, okay, So, in this situation, if I'm your assistant, if I'm like, Alright, when I screw up, and then I tried to tell you about that, I, I need to know how you're going to tell me if you're upset with me. Like, I need to know how to know if this is a low risk or a high risk thing, because you're just telling me they're all low risk. And so I noticed, I think you're lying to me, right? Or like, and I don't know, if one day actually, you're, you're just being nice. And then one day are gonna be like, this is your 51st one, but it's like paper cuts, and it doesn't make you mad one by one. Like, how would I know? If you were mad, and you quit, you know, you guys could make something up. Now, that's a bit. I'm saying that to you, partly, as your colleague and friend, you know, it's like, it's a different thing for me to like, negotiate that out of you just like it would be different for you to negotiate with me, you know, and that education. But as leaders, I think that's something that we can maybe look into, right is like, how do we take some of the and I think that's in your three principles of like, acknowledging the power dynamics and making things explicit. Because if I'm like, this is a circle, everyone's a circle, hahaha. But like, versus being like, hi, like, you know, we have standards in this space. When we do a, we get B, you know, outcome. When we get do C we do we get d outcome, and it's spelled out. So people are like, app. Okay, good. Everybody wants me to be really honest and transparent, accepted. This is where that boundary is. And if that happens, do I just get do I lose access overnight? Do they give me a warning? Like, how would I know? And what would the feedback systems be? And if that gets more developed, it can be less fearsome for people? Yeah.

And then I think when we're on the other side, when we're on the receiving side, and we're feeling gaslit, I think so I think kind of what you're saying is, on the leadership side, what we can do is we can be explicit about what crosses the line and what doesn't where that, like, this is a problem. And this is not a problem. And I think also explicit about, I know I have this power over you, I know that I am a person in a power position. And then I think the other thing we can do is we can validate the person's perspective and say, I know this was a really hard experience for you, I support you in it. And I know you tried your best and that this was difficult, like I'm hearing you say this, I'm hearing what you're saying, and ask them if we're, if we're accurately hearing what they're saying, like really treat their perspective with value. Even though it's different than ours, it doesn't mean that it has to be our, our perspective. So we can create that framework, and to share our perspective. And we can also validate someone else's perspective. And then I think when we're on the receiving end, when we feel like we're being gas lit, I think the things that we can do our enforce our boundaries, create safety, reward ourselves. And then sometimes we can even in a safe relationship, we can ask for validation. Like, will you confirm that you've heard what I'm saying? Will you tell me what you've heard me say? Will you confirm that you understand this is my perspective, even if it's different than yours, we can ask for that. Communication that creates that builds back that connection again. And I think that that's not rude. I think it is asking for what we need.

Yeah. A way that in my marriage, we have kind of played around with this too, when you feel like the other person is discounted a lot. Because it if the other person thinks has like a self concept, or like an identity around being like a good manager, or good spouse, or whatever, you know, and then someone's like, hey, you know, it, like it can go sideways a little bit. So one of the ways that I found to like, you know, because you have to do let ego management work sometimes is to be like, okay, look, I noticed I'm having in my marriage, I'll say I noticed them have, I noticed I've been having a recurring emotional experience, sometimes, whereby XYZ and workplace I might say I notice, I continue to face a recurring concern from time to time, that the mistakes that we are discussing, are actually having an impact that I am not privy to. And that freaks me out because of how committed I am to this job. Right. And so I would love to check in with you to just validate that there isn't anything unresolved with the impact on the things that we have discussed. And I noticed one thing that would really help me focus and put me at ease would be if you could help run me through what to expect if a future mistake ever got to a level where something wasn't okay, because I'm hearing you say that it's okay. But like, I noticed, I'm still really anxious, because I just don't even know what it would sound like. And if I knew what you would say and that I had not missed an email, I would not be checking my, I was gonna say BlackBerry but it's not like, for right now, I would not be checking my phone at three in the morning waking up in a cold sweat that maybe I had let you down and I wouldn't know. So would you be willing to have a conversation about how it is you would give me the feedback? If something was an escalation? Like what do we need to create? That's a lot to ask. I'm not saying everyone should do that. But I just kind of wanted to like

in a trusting relationship, I

think a trusting relationship.

Some examples that we we kind of were talking about ahead of time have bad responses to that like gaslighting responses to that are like one is like, I'm sorry, you feel that way. I hate that apology. You're being so sensitive, you're being too sensitive, and I just have to walk around a walk on eggshells around you and it's not my fault. It's not that big of a deal. Get over it can be gaslighting responses, stuff like this is just and these are ones that I reflect back that I've even engaged in, like, you know, you're being too critical. There's always going to be mistakes. There's always, these are sentences that do not take the time to validate that someone else's perspective exists. And then even another one that we've talked about is like, we need to get on the same page, we need to always be on the same page. I need us to be on the same page about this. That can be something that says I need you to absorb my perspective about

losses. Stop worrying about this so much or like I used to get quipping so hard on yourself, yeah. Then if you don't do that, basically, it kind of can send the signal that it's your job to internalize it all. And that is like an accidental brainwash or gaslight, right? It's like don't bring this to me anymore. And

that makes it harder. A big coaching gaslight like that is I guess you just have some self work to do you need to do some thought management about this. You need to trouble. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So those like, and the reason that they're gaslighting is they're saying, I do not have time for your perspective. And what you can say, if you do not have time for it is literally I need to have this conversation tomorrow, I really want to have this conversation, though. And your perspective is important to me. Like, that's a different way to say, I don't have time for this conversation right now. And it's more directed, it's more honest. But it does still validate that the other person's perspective is a legitimate experience of life, you might still disagree with it, you might not share it, but it's not gaslighting. And I think like, just to kind of one more final example, where I've seen this happen is, I've been involved in like a couple of facilitations lately, like bigger group facilitations. And what I've seen is, there is a really common group process of wanting everybody to build consensus, and again, be on the same page. And that can be really great, it can feel really great. And also, it doesn't allow for diversity. And so there needs to be a balance, where we can say, there is diversity of experience in this room, there is diversity of opinion, that's how we're going to be creative, all of these perspectives are valid, and will help us reach a creative outcome. But that, like, we can kind of adjust to not having so much pressure for people to just agree with the group perspective at the outset. And

I'm not always a big fan of like military model References in civilian society for a variety of reasons. But there is this really interesting model that keeps coming up for me on these topics called the OODA loop. I think it's actually air for US Air Force derived. Wikipedia says it's US Air Force Colonel John Boyd. But basically, they have this model called OODA, which is observe, orient, decide act. And I think sometimes we just get so concerned about like having the same action or something that we don't stop and be like, actually, is it okay, can we make it find that actually, we have different observations, that we have different orientations, we can still come to a shared decision and commit to a shared decision from different orientations. But some in some of these situations, we can slow it down and go back to sharing the observations, go back to sharing orientation, checking in with the other persons and then form decisions from a place that is aware of these multiple, unfolding parallel realities all at the same time. The last thing I wanted to just tag on to this is that I've been doing a bunch of work on tech and ethics lately, and we've been talking about you about what his ethics Nene, and Kenna McCray, who is just an awesome colleague who I have loved learning from shared this idea from bioethics that in a one person universe, there would be no need for ethics. Because there just be one person, they have their values. But it's like this idea that ethics, which is like something that people are calling for, like, whether it's in the industry right now, government and like everything that's happening in the world, people like, oh, we need more ethics, or, you know, maybe we don't, but she was like ethics. And bioethics only comes up when you're in a two person reality or more, where you have two different values sets. And so, you know, everybody has their values, but like part of the ethics is actually like reconciling those different values sets. And that can feel, I think, sometimes it gets characterized, especially if we've been in sort of brainwashing environments for a long time. Like, that's a danger, or that's a threat. But actually, like, if you only had salespeople in your office, and you had no accountants in your office, everyone would have the same values. But like, you would sell a lot of products, and I'm not sure how much revenue you would actually necessarily be booking, I'm not sure what you would be doing with that revenue, because accountants have different values. And that difference of perspectives allows a lot of companies to both sell things and account for revenue and be thoughtful about where to invest it. And so inside having those two, you know, sets of observations, okay? We're observing different things, but also different orientations. Decisions get forged that aren't everybody drinking the same Kool Aid, and the same way like rah rah sales team, necessarily, or everybody like auditing the books like, Oh, my God, we need answers for every tiny thing, no shade to the Cowen's because I know that accounting, accounting is more than that, but so much more. It's just so necessary. I guess this in a business environment, if you actually want to function well as a team to have those different orientations, it's

a really good, it's a really good point, because I for a long time have, like the word values kind of sets off a gas light alarm to me, because I think values can be so used to say there are good values and bad values. And I did a deposition recently where somebody said that he was raised, right. And I started asking him what that meant. And he couldn't answer the question, but I was genuinely like, no idea what you're talking about. And he thought I was trying to trap him. But I think that that comes back to that idea of good values and bad values. But I think that what you're talking about is that core essence of who we are and what we have to bring to the world that has a value and that is meant to be diverse, and the diversity is beautiful. And it leads to us being able to function on a base level, and then being creative on a higher level. And when we can sit with the fact that our reality is valid. And know that and also hold that somebody else might have a different version of reality a different, it might be an opinion, but it might also be a totally different experience than what we've experienced, then I think that we can become kind of impervious, or immune to gaslighting and to brainwashing because we have a strong sense that our perspective is valid even if somebody else is different.

I think in the end, this all starts from an in your path if you're facing kind of a gas lady brainwashing situation at work, you do deserve for your own well being to triage like, is this messed up? Right? Do I need to relocate my body like the number one Meredith Holley question always? Like? Is this just actually an over we're over and done with situation? Is this a conversation where I actually feel like there is room for communications still and room to sell the jet? Right? We're not saying like, do this and then stop thinking you're being gas. But that's not right. But But what we hope that this has opened up a little bit is like in these situations, especially when we feel it's a little bit gas lady, but we're not quite sure how to name it, especially when we're in those moments where we're like, I'm pretty sure this is unintentional, and we just don't know what to do. We hope that this conversation has opened up at least a few options that you can think through, practice on your own. A couple of new questions that you can face when you're in a mid tier, situation and leadership where you have people up in the hierarchy, you have people down, you have people across, you know, how can we think about these roles we play? How can we create more room here to embrace the creativity and capability of different perspectives without feeling like that's going to jeopardize the work right, Reem bracing that these differences actually can be really powerful and crucial for the results that we're committed to, and then re including those in our own process as well. Meredith, if people have other questions, they have stories they have periences They have challenges or spicy questions for us around gaslighting, brainwashing or the ilk. How can they get in touch with us? The

probably the best way to do it is to go to Aris resolution.com/story. That's if you want to share your perspective and you can also email info at Aris resolution.com. That's e r i s resolution.com. Eris,

goddess of discord, why not? Because we just want to have a bad day, my friends. But because as we talk through some of these challenging topics, we can surface new perspectives and those can change the way we think and relate and are capable of working together. Thank you so much, Meredith. And thank you everyone for joining. We'll see you next time.