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Do family roles matter?

disciplenations.org1h 6min

Shawn Carson

00:03

So I think that there's just such a harmony that comes when we've rooted and grounded ourselves in God His word and, and the nature and character of who he is. He wants us individually, but corporately to flourish. And if we extract ourselves out of that, then it's really me trying to get the best for me. And when you put yourself back into his story, you realize, okay, wait, there's something bigger at work here. And there's a, there's a definition of life and family that maybe I haven't seen. And when I go back to that, it makes sense.

Luke Allen

00:52

Hi, Friends, welcome back to another episode of ideas have consequences the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance, a show where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission. And today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Joining us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations in the Craig Carson are in cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Scott

01:32

Well, welcome again to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen. I'm the president of the DNA. And I'm joined today by DNA team members, Luke Allen, Darrow Miller, Shawn Carson, and then we've got a couple of really special guests with us today. One, you know, if you listen to this podcast, Naomi Smith, Naomi, it's great to have you back on today. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's great. And the other is new to our listeners, my my wife and best friend, Kimberly Allen. Hi, Kim. Hi, it's great to be here. We're going to continue to talk about the role of marriage and families in the discipling of nations. And we have been going through this as a kind of an informal series, talking about just the the absolutely fundamental importance of this kind of first and most basic social institution, if you will, that God created way back at the beginning in Genesis chapter one, marriage and family, and how families are really the most, because they're the most basic social unit, they're kind of like if you can think of your nation or your community as a body. The families are like the cell. And so if you're interested in seeing that community blessed, and your nation blessed as all of us as Christians should be, because that's our job description were to be light and salt and be a blessing to our nations and see our nations thrive and flourish, you got to be concerned about the family. And, boy, there's never been a time where we need to be concerned about it more than today, because it's under so much attack from so many fronts. And we, we many of us come from broken families and don't even know what healthy strong flourishing families look like. So we started with that, in our last episode trying to lay out kind of God's original design for for, for this institution, why it's important what it is. And today we're going to talk about the roles within marriage and family, husband, wife, children, and even touch on the role, special role the grandparents have. And so there's extended families as well. And there's roles they play. We're going to talk about the roles. And we're going to also move into a discussion of just the the one of the uniquenesses of family is that it's this multi generational institution, we tend not to think of it that way, because we're concerned about the families that are around us in front of us right now. But there's a history, obviously, and there's a there's a future as well. And so it's really uniquely created in this multi generational list. Very important for discipling nations actually. And then as time allows, we're going to get into the family as a as a kind of an economic unit. I know that sounds kind of funny, but it it shouldn't actually for the whole history of families up until probably about 100 150 years ago with the advent of the modern era in the Industrial Revolution, the family was the center of all sorts of activities. Everything from preparing meals to educating chill Children to economic activity work. You see this if you read, if you read Proverbs 31, that proverbs 31 wife, you know, and it kind of gives you a picture beyond just the role of the wife, but just this picture of a family that's a bit foreign to those of us who live in 21st century America or the West more broadly. So we're going to touch on that as well. I do want to, you know, I know a lot of people that are listening, this is a difficult subject because of the brokenness that people have experienced in families or other people who are single. And, you know, it feels painful, hard. We are going to talk a lot about that. But we may not get to that today, I just want you to know that that's coming up, I don't want you to turn off this episode. I want you to kind of work through it. We all need to we're all part of families, we all need to learn about God's design for family. And so just bear with us, we'll talk about, you know, how do we, how do we deal with all the brokenness because that's obviously where we're at today. And we're not going to neglect that. But we may not get to that today. So with that introduction, I'd like to I'd like to talk about just roles in families, and kind of open up that discussion. You've got, you know, again, three kind of main areas of roles and functions, you've got husbands, wives, and you've also roles for children. Bible speaks to all three of these roles. It's an area that as you guys well know, it's very controversial today, even in the church, certainly in the broader society. But but, you know, in some ways, it's, it's the most, I don't know, kind of controversial area of evangelicalism today seems to be this issue of roles of men and women, specifically in the home and in the church. But just just more broadly even than that. And before we get into the specifics of husbands, wives, children, I just want to talk a little bit with you guys. And especially Darrow having you here with us today, you've done such great job thinking about this, just this whole area of roles, meaning a diversity of roles and a diversity of functions, and yet a unity the Bible as a has a principle of unity and diversity that runs through all of creation. And it affects marriage and family as well. You want to begin us by kind of speaking to that whole, just kind of biblical worldview principle.

Darrow Miller

07:37

I think when you ask the question the way you did, Scott, we need to go back to before the beginning, before the universe existed. And we need to start with the God who existed before time, before space, and the God who existed it is Trinity Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is community. one God in three persons. And we really need to go back that far, if we want to understand the, the very nature of family, the nature of creation. And when God made us, he made a universe that was filled with diversity, and yet was a universe it was one creation, filled with immense diversity. And we read in Genesis one that point in the creative process, you see this conversation going on between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And they're talking about Let Us make man in our image, in our likeness, it doesn't say let me make man in my image. That would be good. Islam would be saying that. It's Let Us make man in our image. And that is such a powerful and important scripture because it's revealing that before creation existed, God existed as community, in relationships, equal members of the Godhead, but distinct persons, distinct roles, distinct functions. And we see this pattern of unity and diversity all over creation. And we see it built in to human beings. We are made male and female, for a purpose, equally human, equally valuable, equally worthy, equally the image of God, but distinct people. And part of our distinctness is our sexuality. And the reason for this, God is community. And he wanted to make human beings to form families to form communities. And to do that, he made his male and female.

Scott

10:49

That's right Darrow and male and female and also husband and wife with kind of distinct roles within that doesn't I like what you say Darrow, it's not that those I think where people struggle with this is when they see different roles, they tend to think of better and worse. And that's not the biblical idea, just like you said, in the Trinity, it's not better and worse, right? You know, that would be heretical to think of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in those terms. But I would also be heretical to think of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as entirely the same, they're different. So that principle is is, is throughout creation, and you see it, you see it come into marriage, in both male and female, and then these roles of husband and, and wife, and it doesn't mean superiority, or inferiority, it just means difference. And, and boy, thank God for that. You know, I mean, I'm so grateful that God made a universe of incredible diversity. And yet of unity two, I'm reminded that, you know, those two things kind of set up a parameter and when you go to, when you when you go over, you can go overboard on either side, right. And if you go overboard on either side, kind of unit unity, its uniformity, everything's got to be the same, or diversity without any unity, it's just chaos. The Bible kind of says, here's these two things that need to be held together. And you see that in, in marriage and family as well. So let's go around, I just want to get people's kind of initial thoughts on roles within marriage. And we're especially again, grateful to have Naomi and Kim with us today. This one I thought, well, we've got to have some women on to represent roles of wives and mothers and we're, we're gonna be we're gonna be hurting without without you guys joining us today. So but just before we get into the specifics of those differences, just any thoughts on in for many of you guys, especially, you know, specifically, especially Kim and Naomi on, on just this concept is principle, a biblical principle of unity diversity,

Kim Allen

12:58

well, Darrow and explained it so clearly, and I think it's what brings power to the marriage relationship is having that unity and diversity and within the family, having it work together as a community, and their specific roles. Definitely. But we'll get to that.

Scott

13:16

Yeah, I think, to me, the the battle, if you will, over II kind of be egalitarian. complementarian, I think a lot of it gets solved if we get this principle, correct. And so understanding the principle I think, is really the key is the key not just, you know, in marriage and family again, but just more broadly in creation. I want to talk a little bit about the specific roles, guys and I, let's, let's start with the husband. The husband has a role in the family. God establishes a role of authority. And this is another thing that gets very, you know, kind of bent out of shape, especially in our modern day. When we think about authority, and we've talked about authority on this podcast, authority is a biblical concept. It's not something we need to shy away from clearly in a fallen world authority is abused. Because of the abuse of authority. The knee jerk reaction amongst a lot of Christians and churches is to just get rid of the concept. Let's become anti authoritarian. That's wrong. We need to not be anti authority, we need to, we need to be redeeming authority. Authority is headship, leadership, responsibility. And all authority is rooted in God, God's the supreme authority, it all comes from him. I was just reading in Daniel this morning you know in the book of Daniel is so powerful on this because it's all about King Nebuchadnezzar learning that lesson, right? That he's not the supreme authority. There's a higher authority in it. He has authority comes from God. Well, that's, that's true of all human authority, not just powerful leaders have empires, that's true of people in the workplace or husbands in the home. So you got authority, and essentially means it's the buck stops with the husband, right? You know, I mean, he's got a responsibility to be a leader to be directing the family to be taking initiative, not just laying on the couch and letting the wife do kind of coming up with a vision of here's what's going to happen. And you tell me what we're doing, and I'll just wait for you husband's got to kind of take that leadership role in the family. And for me, that was something I had to learn, I didn't want, you know, that was a role I didn't particularly want to play because it came with responsibility. And you know, like a lot of guys, I'm afraid of responsibility and want to, I want to shirk it, you know, pass it along to somebody else. So, but that's a key role. You know, we're going to talk about wives for a second. But I think part and parcel of this role of leadership in the home headship and the headship is spoken up, particularly in the New Testament, you see it in passionate passages, like in Ephesians, and Galatians. And other places. The apostle Paul talks about it, you also see it in the very beginning there. Right in the Garden of Eden, you know, I think it's interesting, right after the fall, you know, the Adam and Eve eat the fruit. But God comes to Adam, right, and says, you know, kind of what did you do? Right? What happened here? Why didn't you go to Eve? Because I think God recognized that in that relationship, there was a responsibility and accountability on the part of Adam, you know, the kind of the buck stops with with him. So he needed to answer and respond for everybody under his authority. That's what it means to have authority. You know, I think the other areas for the husband in marriage are kind of these traditional areas, but but very important areas of protection. You know, there's a protective role and provision, there's, there's a role of provision, and we can talk about that, which doesn't mean that the wife doesn't play a role in either of those areas. But what it does mean is that if the husband is kind of shirking his responsibility in either of those areas and passing it on to his wife, something's really broken, right? Something's not right. And I, I love there was a, I'll let you guys chime in, I'd like to kind of go around the room and hear your thoughts on the roles here. But especially if the husband as we get into the husband, wife, we'll just open it up broadly. But Piper, John Piper, the path famous pastor from Minnesota, you know, he, he talks about this role of protection. And he says, he kind of gives this illustration of, let's say, You're sleeping in bed at night, and you hear noises downstairs, right? Might be a burglar, right kind of coming in to rob the house. So the husband turns to the wife and says, Hey, you know, you go down and check it? Like, that wouldn't be good, right? Let's say the wife has got a black belt in karate, and the husband's kind of weak, you know? Does that excuse him? No, he needs to get up, go downstairs. And he needs to confront that danger first. That's his role of protection. And, you know, let's say he can't take on this burglaries lying flat on the floor knocked out, then the wife can come down and you know, give a swift kick in the face to that burglar. But if the husband doesn't, you know, if he's not lying on the floor kind of passed out first, something's really wrong with that family. And I just thought, I thought that was a that's a good way of looking at it doesn't mean the wife can't protect. But husband's got a role to step up these these roles are important, guys, just thoughts. Just maybe we can go around and get your thoughts on this. I'd love to hear kind of your thoughts on the role of husband and wife both, because they're different. And they're the differences important. There's a diversity there?

Naomi Smith

18:59

Well, I think he put Adam in the garden to guard and to cultivate the garden. And it makes me think about, you know, in terms of leadership in the home, if, because of our industrial society, if because we're more we're disconnected from this idea of cultivating life, like in a garden or with sheep or whatever, more agrarian society, that that it can become kind of this. The concept of it can become kind of this like domineering. I'm the boss, like, almost like a corporation or something, as opposed to a shepherd or a gardener, who is called to our farmer and who was called to, to, to make life flourish in his domain. I mean, I think that's a much fuller concept of The role of a father

Darrow Miller

20:01

and let me add to that Naomi, the very word husband. It's to take care of you have husbandry, when you think of agriculture, you're taking care of the land. You're taking care of the animals who are stewarding, and the word husband, and the word husbandry and all that that means are connected. So the word husband isn't just hanging out there in midair, that sort of this relic of something. Know, the man and the woman were put in the garden, to care for it, to tend it to husband it. And the man's role is to husband, the families, the wife, the garden, it's a much larger comprehensive concept.

Luke Allen

21:03

Yeah, before we go much further I, I found this so helpful learning this, back to what you were saying at the beginning, Darrow this, we need to go back to the beginning, the beginning of everything, the Trinity, before we can understand the roles of man and the woman in the marriage. In college, I went to a Christian college, this debate was brought up all the time, the egalitarian versus complementarian thing People loved going back and forth on this. And I always had a little bit of a hard time with it, it seemed a little bit too broad to wrap my head around and really take a firm stance on exactly, because the way was always brought up was in the practice level. It was always about what about this situation? What about this bad situation? What about this evil situation? And it was always like, whoa, so emotional. So confusing, I don't really know, I don't want to get involved in this. And like we were doing here at the beginning of the podcast, and like we do so much on this podcast as we bring it back to the worldview level. And I think that's really helpful on these topics to clarify it at that level, because like we've talked about before, the way ideas spread through cultures, they start at that paradigm level, that worldview level, and then they go to the principal. And then they go to policies, and then they go to practices. So before we always bring up these discussions in the practice level, they're at the bottom, it can be really confusing in that level, you know, the practices that can be a million different practices for a single principle, we need to go back to the paradigm. So I'm so happy we started there today. Because that really brings a lot of clarity to this discussion. For me learning that since my time in college. That's helped a lot. And so today, again, we're talking about these roles. These are these are more of the principle level, the way these can be applied can look like a lot of different things. And then they can be applied wrong. But it's key that we understand them at this at this paradigm and then principle level. So yeah, you guys can continue on the roles. This is this is fun to listen to. But

Darrow Miller

22:56

let me jump in right at this point, Luke. We're having this discussion within the framework of a Judeo Christian culture. And we started by going back to before creation, to God existing, and the Trinity. But that's not the culture we live in today. We live in a post Trinitarian, post theistic culture, we live in an atheistic culture that's formed by an evolutionary framework. This is how we think this is what we're taught in school. Who is the father today, who is who's the husband, it's not the husband. It's the state. We live in a culture where the state is viewed as the father and the husband. We see broken families everywhere. And one of the reasons we have such broken families is because we have a concept of the state, replacing husband and father. The state is the one who protects the state is the one who provides and that's the radical nature of the world in which we live today. So we can talk about fathers and husbands within the framework of a biblical framework. But the battles that are going on in our culture today, are are framed by pop culture, in which the family is not important. We can say we live in a post maternal world, a post familial world, a post nuptial world These things that historically have been established by scripture, marriage from the very beginning. Men and women were made to get married. We live in a post nuptial world were made to form families to have children. People are not having children today. They're having fewer and fewer children. And if they have them, they have them later and later in life after they've had a career. So this is this is the culture that we're really dealing with. And how do we how do we? How do we help the church to begin to articulate the biblical narrative, the biblical culture, as a place where, hey, there's a place here where we can go to have these discussions, because this is what's real. And what we have today in pop culture is not real.

Luke Allen

26:04

Hi, friends. Thanks again for joining us today. If you'd like to learn more about God's design for the family and its role in discipling nations, we would highly recommend you check out Naomi Smith's book for mother's home inspired a look at the micronation of home for new moms. Or, as goes the family. so goes the nation, a book by Elizabeth humans to thrift and Scott Allen. I would also like to point you towards Darrow Miller's newest free online training course The Grand Design rediscovering male and female as Imago Dei, which lays out the roles of mothers and fathers in Gods designed for the family, or the Monday church course with its four lessons on the vocation of family taught by Scott Allen. To learn more about any of these resources, just go to this episode's landing page, which you'll see linked in the description. before resuming the episode. If you could do me a favor and hop on the podcast app that you're currently listening on, and leave the show a rating and review or share your favorite episode with a friend. That would be a huge help for us as we continue to try to reach more people with this show. Thanks again for joining us here on ideas have consequences.

Scott

27:11

Yeah, you're right, Dara, what we're seeing today in the in the broader culture is just such an attack on on kind of the what we're talking about, which is kind of God's designed for family. I mean, there's, there's a real, I would say, just a hatred of it. And just a desire, a deep desire amongst so many of our elite institutions, to see it torn down. So we're talking right now about the role of husbands and fathers, and the role that they have as shepherds and husbands to kind of see their families flourish and thrive. Well, the way that the culture, you know, speaks about that is in this really pejorative language of patriarchy, which is, you know, patriarchy, we have to hate that. That's, that's it's just toxic deeply. It's toxic. It's authoritarian, it needs to be destroyed, right? I mean, you hear that all over the culture. And young men and young men have, you know, absorbed that idea. I know, I absorbed that idea many years ago that, you know, I need to, I need to shy away from that, you know, that was a message I got from the culture that this is wrong, this is bad, we cannot be patriarchal. Oh my gosh, that would be horrible. That's, that's like being racist, you know? So we get all these messages from the culture. But we got it, we've got to just say, No, the culture is trying to just tear down the family, we've got to recover it. And, you know, that role that husbands have, as leaders, in a family is a really, it's such an important role for them, and for their whole family. And when it's not done and, you know, things begin to fall apart when and when it's not done. Somebody's got to kind of keep things moving. It's almost always the wife, you know, that just kind of keeps things moving. Where's the husband? He's checked out, you know, he's, he's doing whatever, you know, it's not what God wants. It's not that's not a flourishing, healthy, thriving family. Does that mean the wife is a couch potato? No. And so let's talk about that a little bit to what what about this role of I want to talk about the role that to coming up just the role of husbands and wives, especially with their children, the education, the nurturing their children. They share that role together that's also being attacked big time in the culture. But, but just the role of the wife is she just this couch potato who lets the husband do all the work?

Naomi Smith

29:42

Yeah, all right.

Scott

29:43

What do you Yeah, let's hear it, Neil.

Naomi Smith

29:47

Well, I think if you if you want to talk about from a Judeo Christian perspective, the Back to the Garden, when Eve was created, God created an Ezer Pineco, he created a helper how it's translated into English as a helper, suitable for Adam. And we are friends. This is a very unique relationship. We are friends with some orthodox Shabbat rabbis. And he was talking to me about that, because we were talking about naming our daughter as her and, and he said, The Jews understand connect duo, as when a man is living honorably. She goes with him. But when he is not living honorably, she resists him. And I found that really interesting, an interesting little nuance to their understanding of the Hebrew. But, um, I think that it doesn't mean that she disrespects him, it means that she calls him to a high level of virtue. And it makes me think of that story that's kind of going around right now of Tim Ballard and his wife. Have you heard this story about Atlas? So this movie has come out? I can't remember what it's called right now. But it's with Jim because, yes. And I was listening to an interview about that movie. Yeah, go watch the movie, right. So it's about it's about this man who is now breaking open these vile sex trafficking rings, with children in them. And he, um, he had this fork in the road with his that he was discussing with his wife, because he was going to get a pension, he was going to get millions of dollars from the American government to continue working for Homeland Security. Or he was challenged by this one little boy that he had rescued, are you going to go rescue my sister. And so he was challenged, either kind of go, go rogue, or go with this safe, secure road that was paved out by the American government. And he talked to his wife and his wife said something to the effect of, if you have the, I don't want to stand before God, and have to answer for the fact that we have the capability to go and rescue this girl. And we didn't. Like you have to do this. And it just makes me think about like the role of a wife, as being one who calls a man up to his highest potential, in an honoring way, in a believing in him way. But still, nonetheless, like, if you die, you die, but at least but we fear the Lord, you know, I mean, that's what she was saying. And it, it also makes me think about in Proverbs 31, how it says, a woman who fears the Lord, she will be praised. Because it really is like about each individual in the family, fearing the Lord. I mean, a man who fears the Lord, his wife will be a fruitful vine, it says in Psalms, and his children will be you know, blessed, but a woman who fears the Lord, she'll be praised. And I just see that as like this beautiful dance that the world needs to see of like goodness, and truth and beauty, just a dance between the husband and wife.

Scott

33:35

I did hear that story, Naomi. And I thought that was very powerful as well, very powerful that that, you know, because it was a choice between him of safety and security on one hand, or, you know, essentially releasing all of that safety and security in terms of Retirement and Pension to do something that would, you know, I think the choice he had to face was if you go and kind of go rogue and try to rescue this girl, you'll forfeit your pension, you know, you won't be able to do that in the name of the department of homeland, homeland security and your punishment will be your you'll forego your pension. And then yeah, she said to him, You know what? I mean, I think he was tempted, but but it was heard that got behind him. And and he says that, you know, I probably wouldn't have done it without her. And that that is that that powerful, you see that powerful role of helper to do what's right to do what's good. I thought that was very powerful as well. So

Naomi Smith

34:31

yeah, and also it makes me think of even in the pre marriage, setting, a woman who fears the Lord will call a man who is trying to win her heart to a higher level of virtue, like if you're if you want to be worthy to be my husband, then you will. So it's actually a very powerful role that women play in culture to call men up, but also to be these like pillars. virtue for the culture.

Scott

35:04

I came, I wonder if you could talk about your experience in this because I know both of us we've talked at different times about how we were very much shaped by the culture. Me in terms of just my role of wanting to be passive and not as a leader and you in terms of your just kind of the the feminism, right ideas that crept in and how you had to kind of wrestle through that in terms of your learning what it meant to be a wife and a mother. Maybe you could just share a little bit of your thoughts.

Kim Allen

35:31

Yes, just a little. Yeah, I grew up really believing that I could do anything you can do and do it better. It's in terms of men and women, and just kind of girl power. Yeah. And I always knew I'd like to be married. When we came to the point of being married, we both had a lot to learn. And I think the Lord, which really helped us, we kind of decided we really want to go to the Scriptures. What does God say? What does God say about marriage? What does God say about family. And we had to put these things into practice, I know that Scott wasn't used to being in that position of leadership, and I wasn't frankly used to being in the leader in the followship following role as well. So we, we needed to adjust, I needed to encourage him in that and also learn myself what it means to be a wife and mother. But I would say that Naomi, as you pointed to in Genesis two, and it talks about God said, I will make a helper suitable for him. There's so many practical ways that the Lord calls us to help and as you said, encouraging them in the role that the Lord has for them. And I would say for myself, taking a position of prayer, just really bringing my husband to the Lord daily, and asking him to empower him by the power of the Holy Spirit to fulfill these roles that God's called him to, whether that's as a husband, as a father, in the workplace, to be a servant leader, to truly fear the Lord. And that's an ongoing, really important part of my role as wife, I believe. Yeah, so we're, we've definitely been learning and continue to learn, I think

Naomi Smith

37:30

I can, I had the same situation where I was, girl power, and all that. And, and I think, for me, what what I started to see was like, man, God has put these people like my father, who I didn't have much respect for growing up, but he put my father in place, for my good. And even if my father fell apart on that role, or, you know, fell down on that role, that didn't mean that the structure was bad. It was it just meant that he had kind of not fulfilled his role. But like, the structure is still good. And so when it came to marriage, it's like, Well, God has now placed this man, I'm called to be married to this man, God has placed this man here for my good to lead our family to consider the whole all those things to husband me to take care of me, you know, all those things, and I should receive it this this structure as a gift, not as a curse, or something that I'm like railing against.

Kim Allen

38:39

That's really good. Yes.

Scott

38:41

I think another thing I've seen is, is this role, the diversity of husband wife when it comes to children. And I do think God has particularly, you know, given women, mothers, this maternal heart that's unique, that I recognize that just with Kim and recognize that I love my children, but not in the same way. Like there's just this depth of love and care and concern that God puts on the hearts of mothers. And I think for you cam, you know, you came into marriage, and Kim was, she wanted to be married, wanted to have kids, but it wasn't like I really want you know, it was like, yeah, when the time comes, it'd be nice to have some kids, right, you know, then once we had kids, boom, this thing kind of kicked in. Right. I mean, Kim, talk about that a little bit. That's just just incredible love and desire to care for nurture. I mean, I just thought that was kind of a remarkable thing. And it's still I see it even to this day, you know, just that aspect of what it means to be a mother that's different from a father or a husband. Yeah. And Naomi, feel free to chime in on that too.

Kim Allen

39:47

Yeah, well, obviously God has beautifully and uniquely designed women to carry to bear children and to fully participate in That miracle of birth, right, and that, starting with our first child, God really showed me incredible ways that he had prepared myself and all women, if he desires to do that, and the nurturing role starts, you know, even while the child is in the womb, and then to be able to nurse a child, and then to be able to nurture them, as they are children, and they grow. And I've just been so blessed to have the opportunity to do that. It truly children truly are a gift from the Lord and a reward from him. And, yeah, I'm so thankful that the Lord has allowed me to participate, you know, in that way, and then as husband and wife together, come together to raise to disciple those children and to, as Malikai to talks about raise up godly offspring, not just to have them but to raise them up to know the Lord. That's how we partner in that.

Scott

41:05

Dara, you've written a lot about this as well. I wonder if you have some thoughts on just the difference between husbands and wives. Again, we're talking about the Unity diversity and just the different roles but also functions the way God created us. And I know that role of mother is just again, very much under attack in our culture. You know, you wrote about this in nurturing the nation's Yeah.

Darrow Miller

41:28

Well, the thing that's in my mind right now is after listening.

Luke Allen

41:37

Sorry, no, it is okay.

Scott

41:38

For those of you are listening and not watching Naomi's got her beautiful daughter now on her lap. So we're just all enjoying this picture here that we're seeing. So yeah, go ahead. Darrow. Yeah,

Darrow Miller

41:48

you know what you, you and Kim, were saying when Kim, when you became a mother, something happened inside of you. Something that was there all along, but maybe you had not recognized. But suddenly, now you are a mother, you have a baby in your arms. And there's something inside of you, that is coming out. Like a cyclone. It's just bursting forth. And it was made to burst forth because it's part of how you have been designed as a woman. And as you were talking, it made me think Why are so many feminists and pro abortion is so angry. Why are they so angry? Why is there so much hatred? And I think the reason that came to my mind when you were saying what you were saying is, they're warring against their own nature. Their nature is nurture, their nature is maternal. And the culture has said to them, these are not good things. And so you war against these things, but you're warring against yourself? And how do we help people be free? So they can celebrate who they are? In their role as mothers and the maternal and, oh, it's so beautiful, how do we help women understand that? So they celebrate who they are, and not war against who they are.

Kim Allen

43:40

I've really been impressed by God's faithfulness, of course, from one generation to the next, and then also his calling on us that we must be totally committed to not just our current generation, or even our own children, but our children's children and beyond. And so many Scriptures speak to this. But here's one just in Psalm 101 45. Four says, One generation will commend your works to another, they will tell of your mighty acts, they will speak of your glorious splendor, and Your Majesty, they will celebrate your abundant goodness. And I just think that's such an important part as parents and grandparents to continue to tell the next generation to pass the torch to share your faith to encourage and nurture children and grandchildren and beyond in the ways of the Lord. And I think later you wanted to talk about discipleship and education of children and that comes out of Deuteronomy for Deuteronomy six so many beautiful passages on that.

Scott

44:55

Ya know, you're you're jumping into the the family as a multigenerational Institute. Shouldn't which is so powerful as well. And it's something that I hadn't thought much about, I barely knew my grandparents, much less great grandparents, I just didn't give much thought, I certainly did get didn't give thought before that, or even after, you know, it was kind of all about me and my particular link in the chain, if you will, on it, it had no sense of, but then when I studied the scriptures, like you say, yeah, the scriptures are all about that larger chain, if you will, that that thing that spans generations. And I think of Genesis chapter 12, one and two, where God says, I'm going to, I'm going to kind of institute this, this redemptive plan that's going to span all of human history. And he does that with Abraham, and He does it by talking about family, I'm going to raise up from you, a family, I'm going to give you a son, and that son is going to become a great nation. And, you know, it's all about these generations that God's going to work through and covenant with, to do something powerful and unique on Earth. And you just see a picture of the family that I wasn't familiar with. But before we get to that, I do want to, you know, we are running a little low on time. So we'll do what we can on this episode, and we'll come back to it. But Shawn, you've been quiet. I'd love to get your thoughts on on just what we're talking about in terms of either from your own personal experience, or just whatever God's put on your heart. But just the this this kind of roles, the Unity diversity, right, one family diverse roles? husband, wife, children, yeah. What are what are your thoughts or experiences in that area? Shawn?

Luke Allen

46:32

Yeah. And Shawn, if you wouldn't mind also touching on the role of the children? I think we should also, you know, we haven't we haven't been on to the next section. That's a lot.

Shawn Carson

46:42

Yeah, go for it. As you were talking, I think one thing that stands out to me is something that that's key to all of these things is that when you look at the Bible, when you look at marriage, and you look at individuals and families, it's all rooted in grounded in the character and nature of God and who he is. So when you when you extract husbandry out of that, then it's kind of an authoritative figure. And it's a kind of a top down, do what I want you to do kind of mentality. Or if it's a feminist perspective, it's, Hey, just don't stand in my way, let me do what I want to do. And you're here to help me get my stuff done. When you put God in the center of it, and his nature and character, then it's this simple. We exist to love and serve one another, just as Darrow talked about the Trinity. It's not God doing his thing, and Jesus doing his thing and the Holy Spirit, but they're, they're doing something together, that creates unity, and it's different, but it's beautiful. And, and it's effective. And I think that when we look at marriage, and we look at individuals and husbands and wives in their roles in that context, it puts the pieces of the puzzle together in a very, you know, clearer and holistic way. And when you extract them and separate them, yeah, it does kind of look authoritative, or selfish, or, you know, just just jointed just completely disjointed. So I think we need to be grounded in a worldview that's reflective of God and who he is and his nature and character. And when we find that, we're not expressing that we need to come back and find out okay, what does he say to me? What does he say to him, to me in my role, then and and then ground myself back into that, and I think that as we you do that individually, but then as you do that as a marriage in a marriage, then it strengthens your marriage, and I loved what you were saying, Kim, about calling in, in the womb, you were calling your husband to something greater, something bigger. And I think that that's super important, because, especially in today's world, you know, we our men are what we said, you know, toxic, and so there's an insecurity and there's a fear, and there's a, I don't want to be one of those kinds of guys. So you kind of, you know, you, you tend to take a step back and, and, and not exercise the roles that God has given you. And and when you do that, then you know, you lose and your family loses as well. So I think that there's just such a harmony that comes when we rooted and grounded ourselves in God His word and, and the nature and character of who he is. He wants us individually, but corporately to flourish. And if we extract ourselves out of that, then it's really me trying to get the best for me. And when you put yourself back into his story, you realize okay, wait, there's something bigger at work here. And there's a there's a definition of life and Family that maybe I haven't seen. And when I go back to that, it makes sense.

Scott

50:09

I love that so much on and I'm so grateful you said that that, if I could just recap what you said, because I think it's worth underscoring. All of this comes from the character of God himself and the relationship that God has within the Trinity Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and the way that that relationship works, it's all got to be based on that. And if it's not, if God is stripped away, it just goes south, it gets really crazy. And that's why the fallen world reacts against it, because it's gotten so crazy, because God's been stripped out. So what we do as Christians isn't, oh, let's, you know, let's follow the pattern of the culture. No, let's be biblical. But let's put God right back at the center of it. And I'm always so deeply touched when there's a lot of passages that talk about the nature of the relationship between Father, Son and Spirit, you see it, particularly in the book of John, and you hear Jesus often say, you know, things like, I love the Father, I do exactly what my father's commanded me to do. There's this, there's this sense of, it's not about me, it's about honoring him and pleasing Him, and, and you hear the Father say similar things towards the Son, this is my son, my beloved son, I am well pleased with him. And you know, God's lifting him up. And what you see there isn't selfish, it's not self, like you were saying, Shawn, it's not, you do your thing, I do my thing, you know, whatever it is, or you exist to, you know, help me get glory. It's, it's this kind of glorifying one another. And that's what we're supposed to model our own relationships in the marriage and family on I just think it's and authority authority in that in that God had relationship is, you know, is that is our model as well, right? It's, it's, you know, otherwise, it becomes, as you said, authoritarian, selfish, you know, becomes really bad, but, but when God's at the center of it, and when we're really understanding who he is, what is his character, it's like this. It's the secret that holds everything together. So thanks for saying that. And Luke, just to your your question about the role of children, we think of husbands and wives, children also have a role. And I think it's rooted in the idea that children when they're in the home, you know, so this is, obviously before they come of age, and they go and get married themselves and start their own homes and families. When they're in the home, they're under the authority of, in this case, husbands and wives, right, the both of them mothers and fathers have an authority role over the children. So the children's children's role is, is to submit to you and to be obedient to that authority. I mean, that's, that's a clear role they have, and to grow, to grow, to be nurtured, and in, you know, to grow physically, spiritually, socially, etc, you know, just as Jesus did. So, that growth that discipleship, obedience, respect, you know, that's one of the 10 commandments Honor your father and your mother. That's, that's a command to children, towards their parents. I think the thing I want to say, though, when it comes to children and mothers and fathers is that that's, that's under huge attack right now in our society, that that the Bible sets up the family as a structure of authority where parents have authority over children. And that authority is to care for them, to provide for them, and to educate them to disciple. And when I say educate the Bible blurs these concepts of discipline, discipleship, and education, they all are kind of the same thing, maybe with a little bit different emphasis on it, but they're not these completely separate boxes, right? Discipline, discipleship, education. And parents have responsibility for all of that doesn't mean that other people can't be involved, teachers, churches, but that's under attack today. So right now you've got a situation where people are openly saying, hey, as Darrow said earlier, the state has responsibility for the children, not the parents kind of you can give birth, but Hand them over. We'll educate them, you just take a back seat. I mean, people believe that now and I think another thing that we're seeing is, I just heard today, in fact, there's three states in the United States, California, Washington, Illinois, that are actively promoting transgenderism and public schools, and encouraging children to come out as transgender and not tell their parents that and if the parents do happen to find out an object, the state is reserving the right to remove those children from the home. It's all of that is is just it's this driving a wedge between children and parents on this issue of sexuality and transgenderism is an attempt to break break apart kind of the family what God put together. It's demonic. It's evil. It's happening right now. The Not on on any of that, guys as we wrap up today. And I that's a lot I know I've

Luke Allen

55:06

Yeah, I mean, joining as a as the the one who exited the Allen family exited but grew up in the Allen family I yeah the the role of being obedient and respecting your parents, you know a lot you hear sometimes right now and in culture abroad, you know, don't discipline your children, you know, let them be free, let them do their thing, there's kind of like this negative connotation towards all that, oh, you need that, you know, speaking in retrospect, you need that I wouldn't be in a way different place in life if I didn't have that growing up. And I know for you guys, I was harder than the other siblings to, to train in the obedience category. But you know, eventually it kind of got there. Yeah, worked on it took more work with me, you know, sharpening me or whatever you want to call it. So but it works. And I mean, Proverbs goes over this over and over again, you know, the the child will grow up in see that that was loving, they'll call you blessed, you know, Proverbs 31, you know, the children will rise and call their mother blessed. I wrote that to you on a card recently, mom, because they really, I'm really thankful for that. But that that's an important role for the children to play. And if that role is neglected, that's the worst thing you can do for your kids. And I'm so thankful for growing up in a household where that was really enforced. very lovingly.

Scott

56:31

Thanks for saying that. Luke. It's it's that that for me, it was one of the hardest things I don't know if Shawn or Naomi, if you guys want to speak to that, but just as a parent learning how to how to discipline disciple educate, you know, discipling, and educating, easier disciplining the hardest that, but but also, in some ways, the one that bears the most fruit? I don't know.

Shawn Carson

56:53

Yeah, no, I agree. My wife is she constantly uses the word training. And you think, Oh, we've had this discussion, like 100 times or 1000 times. She said, Remember, it's training training, you know? And, and I think that that's, it's a key word, Scott. And I think you're right. It's one of the hardest, because I think, you know, it, one of the things that we hear from our children is a will, that doesn't affect you, like it affects me, right? So you're, you're, you're touching my autonomy in one sense. And you shouldn't do that, right? Because that's, that's not right. And so I think, you know, we've we've elevated autonomy to such a high degree these days, that anything that goes against our autonomy, if you get sick for a while, you'll find out that you can't be the person you thought you were going to be, and do the things you thought you were gonna be. And so that affects your autonomy. You're, you're dependent now on other people. And I think sometimes that it's those kinds of things, actually, that help us grow the most. And I think you're right, it's those discipline times, when you lose a privilege, or you lose the ability to do something that you realize, maybe what we've talked about, you are a part of a generational thing here. And it's not all about you. It's not about what you can get. And it's not about making yourself happy. It's about doing the right thing, even at a cost. And when we don't do that, then I think we train our kids that there are no such thing as consequences. And then when they get into the real world, and they experience it. They're shocked by it, you know, and they think this wasn't supposed to happen. That's never happened to me before. Why is it happening now? And and I think it's a real major disservice. My parents were really good about that. I think my mom carried the most of the burden for that. But she did a really good job, I think of trying to find that balance. And of course, like any other person, she, she succeeded and failed in different times. But she got the point across and we learned that and, and we turned to be grateful, you know, of, of the the ability that she had to or my parents had to, to tell us no, or to say you can't do X, Y or Z thing. You look back on it. You think yeah, she could have been harder on me. And that would have been okay. But at the time, not so much. You know, so I think it's, it's really important, Scott, I think you're right, and the discipline and the training part is one of the hardest parts as a parent,

Scott

59:30

but I just I know for me personally, I bet you guys can all say something very similar. These roles, this kind of biblical design, especially as it comes to the roles. I think for a lot of generations, especially in a country like the United States that was so shaped by the Bible. These roles were something he kind of learned just by watching right you could kind of see it being done and Shawn, you spoke to this with your mom. You know so you learn from we all learn from experience these roles right from watching our own parents. And we'd often learn good lessons. But I would say over the last several generations probably, as we become kind of disattached, from the Bible and post Christian, we don't learn, you know, we've learned wrong lessons, or we, you know, we haven't seen it, we haven't seen it practiced in our own homes, the way that it ought to be. And so it's kind of lost knowledge. So we have to go back and kind of recover it. I think that's one of the challenges of this generation is not to just kind of repeat whatever we learned from our particular family experiences, but to go back to the Scriptures, and some of these basic relationships and say, How is it different? And how can I learn from that and put that into practice? As opposed to what maybe it was, from my own personal experience? And I think so it's kind of like we've got to recover the lost knowledge I think of who was it? The Josiah that found the book, the last book, right, you know, gosh, we found the Bible here. It's been buried away. You know, I feel that way a little bit, sometimes with Christians when it comes to these things of husbands, wives, families. That's my final thought. Any final thoughts from you guys, as we wrap up today, it's been great, great discussion.

Luke Allen

01:01:10

Like I mentioned last week, I'm in the beginning stages of this whole family stage of life for my own family, and I'm the rookie season the true freshman here, but it's, it's really cool to see. Yeah, the redshirt freshman. How, when you do step into God's role for the family, it's really natural. It's, it's almost instinctual. Like you guys were saying with a mother who has, who has the first baby how that for a lot of people, that's a really, you know, a huge paradigm shift, but also just super, it's extremely natural. The way that all flows out is those maternal instincts just kick in, they're really instincts. And I'm seeing that from my wife right now, she's a few months into the first baby here. And it's, you know, it's like a butterfly coming out of the cocoon. It's so fun to watch. And I see this in a lot of things within marriage. And here at the beginning, especially just because there's so much change going on is like, wow, this is going really well, when you follow God's basic principles. Of course, the world's fallen were fallen, all these, you know, speed bumps along the way. But it's, it's a beautiful picture to see. But a lot of it does take that humility and that surrendering to what you want, and trusting and listening to what God wants

Scott

01:02:23

you in final thoughts? No final thoughts? Okay.

Kim Allen

01:02:28

All right, well, good. Okay. One final thought, just I think it's saying pretty much the same thing as Shawn. But any relationship we have, whether it's husband, wife, parent, child, all of that has to come from a receiving of the love of God, the Father to our to us in order to overflow the source, from a fountain of that love to anyone else, my relationship with my husband, my children, will never be good or right, without being filled first with a love of God, and His Son, Jesus. So it all has to flow from that.

Scott

01:03:07

I'm so glad you shared that final thought that's not a that's not an unimportant thought. If we try to do this apart from God and our own strength, we're gonna mess it up. It's not going to work. So we do need we need God's strength, help love, wisdom, power, and just, yeah, be filled up, be connected to him all the most basic relationship in any family relationship is our relationship to our Heavenly Father. Right? Yeah. And then once you know, that's where we get the strength and the wisdom to live out these other relationships, way to way to go Kim on that word, guys, it's been great. We're gonna continue this discussion. And next time we talk, we'll, we'll pick up more and explore this idea of the multi generational aspect of families. Because that's so important. When we talk about discipling nations. We're not going to disciple our nations in one generation, right? It's not going to happen in my generation, it's going to happen with my children, grandchildren, great grandchildren. Okay, with that in mind, what do we need to be doing? How do I have this long game picture? Okay, so we'll talk about that. We're going to talk as well about family as an economic unit. We we've been hinting at that. We're going to pick that up explore that further, as well as just the brokenness that is pervasive now in this area of families. And what do we do with that? How do we deal with that? So much more to come. And until then, guys, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Kim. And Naomi, thanks so much for being with us today. It's been terrific to have you guys. And thank you all for listening to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the D and A disciple nations.

Luke Allen

01:04:50

Thank you for listening to this special group discussion on God's vision for the family. Like we just said, we will continue to dive into this topic and the next few months so stick around for those episodes. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations Alliance. If you'd like to learn more about our ministry, one of the best ways you can do that is by taking our flagship resource, the Kingdom iser training program, which is completely free and will walk you through exactly what we are passionate about here at the DNA, which is the power of biblical worldview to transform your life and the lives of those around you. Join over a million others from 93 Different nations around the world who have gone through this training by signing up today at quorum dale.com. Again, that is the kingdom iser training program on quorum dale.com. You can also find out more about us on our Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and YouTube or on our website which is disciple nations.org. Thanks again for listening and we will catch you next Tuesday here on ideas have consequences.

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