You're listening to Cubicle to CEO episode 242. We're rounding up our seven best tips and guests insights on all things email marketing, from reducing unsubscribes to maximizing conversions, I'll introduce each soundbite with the name of the guest and the original episode number in case you want to go back and listen to the full interview. All referenced episodes will also be linked for you in the show notes below for easy access.
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Tip number one is from Noah Kagan bonus episode 52 Noah breaks down how his company AppSumo generates $50 million a year directly from creating conversations with their audience through email. Let's jump over to idea number two, what was your second million dollar idea that you implemented AppSumo?
Email marketing.
Okay, so that's a pretty broad topic. Is there something specific specific that you are thinking of when it comes to how you guys at AppSumo do email marketing differently?
Well, let me let me take a step back because I think people have heard email marketing. But I think how we got there, and then how we executed today is really the interesting part. And just to give context, we didn't do email marketing for the first year.
Wow.
And I think people you know, maybe copy others or don't know that that's exactly my point. I think people don't realize the power of email, like, let me give you a great example. I have a million subscribers on YouTube, which is pretty cool. But I put out a video about my book launch million dollar weekend last week, 12,000 views, which is so great, it's better than none. Like I'm glad is greater than zero. But think about that. I've spent two years and over a million dollars cash, paying the team and hiring and flying and all this difference. I have to make these videos, both out. And so the reality is that YouTube controls my audience, not me. I don't have I can't talk to them, unless I make some really neat video that YouTube decides, right? And so that's the power of email marketing, and appsumo.com $80 million a year business. Half of it is from email, if not, sometimes a little more, but give or take us around 50 million in gross sales from email.
That's so impressive, but not surprising. I mean, I'm on AppSumos list and you guys are very diligent about yes, we're real life case study here. And you've got you've got me like many, many times, you know, when I'm looking for something or not looking for something, sometimes you just present such a good offer that I can't resist even if it wasn't top of mind for me. So I'm surprised that that is such a huge driver of revenue in your business.
I would say for everyone out there. The number one thing is they didn't start it. They don't start to email us today and you can use you know, I use send fox.com It's what I built because I hate subscriptions. But you can use MailChimp or ConvertKit almost everyone regrets not starting sooner.
Mmhmm, good.
I know, I'm gonna give you more when we get more like complicated, but most people, they just don't start. And the other thing is that they don't stick with the cadence of communication. So I've sent an email every week on Noah kagan.com for 15 years. And the other thing I would say, that I've done as well, literally, since the beginning of AppSumo, is that I reply to almost every single person personally.
Wow. you-
I think this is a really-
Like, like if someone gets an email from AppSumo. And they just hit reply. You respond to that?
Not today. Today. It's like, that's hundreds of thousands of Millions of people. So it's a bit much, but on noahkagan.com. If you joined today, and you reply to the first email, I reply back to you.
Nice.
Personally
That's a really solid practice.
Yeah, I'm gonna like, Oh, who's your VA? And they always do this. They say this, Hey, I know this is Noah's team. Can you tell Noah thanks? And I'm like, This is Noah's assistant named Noah. He says cool. And I think a lot of times, we don't get to scale, we don't get to millions, because we don't focus on the ones. And that's also been fun. I mean, frankly, you know, it's interesting, we did a book launch party, and this is a whole, maybe this is a separate thing. But involving your customers in your business early and showing them all the things happening in the kitchen is a really great way of building relationships.
And the last tip, I would just quickly add in, this is something that you said, and I'm just highlighting, we did this thing called survey to sale. So this has been a new thing that I did with the book that was really fun. I've done this in the past as well. I would send out an email. And then I would put a survey and the survey is like, Hey, I'm going to do a book speaking tour. Where would you like me to come? Okay. So we email in my personal, my personal and it's not. And maybe like 300 people put in like, hey, come to Japan. I'm like, Ooh, that sounds nice. Come to Oregon. I was like, you know, go see Ellen. And then those people that raised their hand and said, Yes, I'm interested, basically, in a book tour, I said, Hey, would you like to preorder the book and join my launch team?
Hmm.
And the thing that everyone can replicate in their own business is how can you survey people to raise their hand and say they'd like to be your customer, or they'd like to purchase something and they're basically self indicating that there they'd like to buy something before they even recognize it? And then you just help solve their problem. So this person probably wants me to come speak in their city.
Yeah.
And then I just emailed them and I said, Hey, you want me to come speak here? I can't promise you I will. But I'd love for you to also if you're interested. Sounds like you're interested, preorder the book. Here's the link let me know if you have questions. And that was I think around a 50% conversion rate of people I think this might be higher.
That is so so smart.
So called survey to sell method that's been a that was a really fun one where people are also excited like one they're excited to hear back from me but two they're like yeah, of course I'm gonna get the book
That idea preemptively selling someone without like without even a product and yeah, like just this idea of like, do you have this interest you have this problem this curiosity whatever it is, that's so smart. My mind is already spinning with like surveys, I want to-
Because you can survey anything my publications, but how's your family life? How's your clothing life? How you know, who here is interested in this travel thing? And then based on if any, if no one says anything? Great. That's awesome. Then you can email them and ask them why they didn't say anything. Yeah. And then you can actually find out why they don't care. And then like, I don't like the way you worded I didn't like and you're not selling them anything. You're just finding out if they're qualifying themselves, and if you can help them with the problem, or help them with the opportunity that they want.
Tip number two is from Amy Porterfield, Episode 182. Amy shares a genius guerilla marketing move for emailing your hottest leads a surprise Live Meeting link that boasts huge show up rates.
Okay, so one thing this is brand new that we did different that we will absolutely do, again, is that in the past, I used to do Facebook Lives every single week of the pre launch. So six weeks of pre launch six weeks of Facebook Lives. And my Facebook Lives were dwindling. i It was painful to get like even 100 on, I'm not super active on Facebook, I do a lot of my engagement on Instagram. And it was just for us. It wasn't working like it used to. So I told my team that's way too much work for me to get on those Facebook Lives put together these trainings, and then hardly anyone shows up. So my marketing team had seen this done by someone else. I don't remember who and or I don't know if they even told me but basically it's surprise lives. And I did them on Zoom. And what we did is a you have you ever seen anyone send out an invite? And it out automatically gets put on someone's calendar?
No. How do you do that? Like what are you how whats the tech behind that?
Like I hope she doesn't ask me how we did it because I'm actually not positive and I wish I would have looked that up. Actually, this will be kind of fun. Hold on. Like it's totally worth it. So stay with me for a quick second. This is like in the moment getting the answers you all need to do magic stuff.
That is insane. That is a whole other level of guerilla marketing like, right, brilliant because, I mean, while you're searching that up, I mean, it's kind of one of those things where I joke all the time. Something isn't on my calendar. It doesn't exist to me like I don't. There's no way I would know to show up or something if it doesn't exist.
So I just texted my project manager, we'll see if she she sees it. But okay, the argument could be, that's annoying. Like you, you put your agenda on someone's calendar, I get it. It's a little controversial. And I'm tend not to be controversial in my marketing, but it works really well. And someone did it to me. And I showed up, I was like, oh, okay, there it is. And I could actually go to that you can delete it really quickly. But there is a way that you send somebody an invite, so it shows up is like tentative on their calendar. And they can accept it or not. That's essentially. And so we, but we only sent it, we didn't send it to our entire list where people would be like, What is this? Anyone opted into a freebie during the six weeks?
Let's say by week three, you had signed up for the quiz or something, you're going to get a surprise live. And we said, because you asked to take the quiz or whatever, we're inviting you to a surprise live, Amy's gonna teach XYZ. Here's your link, we'll see you on zoom in an hour or whatever it might be like it was really kind of just like an urgency play. And the show up was outstanding. Like we had maybe over 1000 people versus the 100 people on Facebook. We surprised lives on Zoom work better for us than the Facebook Lives I've done in the past.
So, oh, she's she's writing back. Okay. It's called Google Groups plus direct calendar invite. So if you Google, maybe Google Groups plus direct calendar invite, it's a little bit advanced, like she sent me the step by step as like, holy cow. This is why I have a marketing team, because this looks intense. But you can find more about it. But it definitely it's kind of wild. It's kind of crazy that it went right to their calendar. But she said we allowed an opt out to stay in compliance, of course. So she wanted to be very clear, we did not break any rules with this, we allowed an opt out to stay in compliance. So you can Google it. But I like I like where you're going with it. The principle behind it, you're special, you signed up for, let's say, this special PDF, and we would call it out, we noticed you signed up for XYZ.
And so we wanted to invite you to the special live where I'm going to drill down even deeper into that concept, and only the people who signed up, get an invite, so meet me there. And I don't think there was a replay either. So I don't think we did replays which I'm noticing so I've been around for a long time. And replays have always been a huge part of my strategies for everything I've done. And the minute you say no replay, it's it's just wild, how much better your show operators.
Tip number three is from Kirsten Roldan in Episode 217, Kirsten shares a compelling argument for why you shouldn't be afraid to up your email send frequency, and why it doesn't impact your unsubscribes as much as you think.
You are a huge believer in emailing your list more than once a day. And so during this OpenCart window, I have to assume that you were emailing people multiple times a day. Is that true? And if so, what was the frequency and cadence of your volumes of send out during that seven day window?
Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I was emailing today. Yes, I definitely believe in that. And you know, during the pre launch, it was like three to five emails a day. And then toward the end of the launch, I upped the cadence to six to 10 Just depends during lonely. Yeah, six to 10 emails a day. Yes, yes. And it just every time it works every time it just gets the conversions get higher and higher. So I just the cadence gets higher and higher email cell, right. And so for me, that's been the highest amount. Now I will say, I'm an email girl, right? Like, of course, but I have clients that don't necessarily match that frequency that make just as much as well. And so you also don't have to send 10 emails a day if you don't want to, but I like to.
Okay, I'm just again, I'm just so impressed with like your conviction in this particular arena. Because I know for most people hearing this three to five is probably like more than they've ever even imagined sending to someone in a single day. And you're like, oh, no, that's my starting point. And so I want to dig into this.
Minimum.
I want to dig into the psychology a little bit because I just I know our audience and I know that the fear of being annoying, right? I know that's like the number one thing that holds people back from upping their own frequency to their list. So how do you combat that like during this launch when you started at minimum three to five emails a day and then ramped up to six to 10. How were you mentally talking yourself through okay, I got to show up confidently. I'm not being annoying. And then did you notice on the data side a large number of unsubscribes? Did it hold pretty steady? Like just curious what your experience around this was?
Such good questions. So yeah, the first thing I say to myself and to others, when they're worried about being annoying, is we'll just write better emails then. Right? Like, if you're being you're annoying your audience, you're just not writing great emails, right? Because your audience isn't annoyed when you're writing really high quality emails, right? Even when you're selling every email, if they are high quality, and I define high quality as specific to the person reading them, right? Like the person man says, Oh, my goodness, this person gets it. They know what I'm dealing with. And they can help me that's quality. And so that's the first thing is whenever I'm worried about being annoying, usually I go to do I like my emails that I'm writing, because if I liked my emails, I wouldn't be worried about that.
So starting there, and in terms of, you know, coaching myself through it, from a mindset standpoint, I absolutely have gotten the emails of you send too many emails, you look desperate, you look crazy. You look all these different things. And what's helped me to get through that is Tell my bank account, like, tell my baby, I'm such a math person. I'm like the man, I don't know what else to say. Like the evidence is in the bank account, right? And so, for me, what helps my mindset is reminding myself that people are buying from it. And so clearly, it's working. So why am I questioning myself right?
Now, when it comes to unsubscribes, because I focus on quality emails, I have actually an extremely low unsubscribe rate. And I cannot tell you how many people unsubscribe from my list, but still join my program. I can't tell you how many because most people are worried about losing leads, like that's the concern. But so many people that have unsubscribed, were just like, honestly, I just don't want all the emails I'm just gonna join. Right? But also, there's so many people that have unsubscribed because they're like, it's just not relevant for me right now. But then they come back, I can't tell you how many people have come back. And so I don't, I don't like have this tight grip on my subscribers.
And because of that, I think that honestly helps me to keep writing better emails, which reduces the unsubscribes naturally, but also my list always evens itself out with that I have sent as many as 10 emails a day, and I've only gotten like 10 unsubscribes in an entire launch. That's very low for sending 10 emails a day. Right? Sure. Yeah. And even when I've lost more, you know, in the let's say, 20s or 30s. Still, every time it's not impacted my income. And so for me, it's not something that I try to avoid. It's not something that I like, gotta make sure I avoid unsubscribes if anything, trying to avoid it keeps me from hitting my goal because then I send less emails, then I convert less. So that's like my mindset.
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Tip number four is from Laura Belgray episode 171. If you're still worried about unsubscribes, Laura recommends adding soft opt outs during your next launch to lower your unsubscribe rate.
So I'll start with the soft opt out. So as these emails ramp up, and especially once I once the card is opened, and I'm no longer just pushing them to free stuff that everyone should be happy to get and not complain about, I start putting in usually in the top of my email, sometimes at first, it's, it's at the bottom. And as I feel like people might start to get annoyed, who aren't interested, start putting the top, a little box of text, I like to put it in a different color, like a different color background from the rest of it. It's just kind of like a warning box a heads up, you know, this email is about saying impacting millions.
And I might say the card is now open and have a link to go there. If you don't want to hear about it, but want to stay on my list. Don't worry, I've got you. And then I'll have a link that says, No, don't send me any more emails about impacting millions thanks. And so then when they click that they go to it sends them to a page that says, you know, I gotcha, don't worry, you're off the ride. And it's a great way to save yourself from unsubscribes.
Because people who, you know, they're like, Oh, I do want to stay on your list. I just don't want to get these anymore. So it gives them a chance to do that. And one thing to note, one thing that I've changed over the years, is I used to say like don't want to get these emails, you know, click the link and then the link that it might say Stop sending me emails about Selena Sue or whatever. But it's not as obvious that it's a don't click here and less.
So now I put I put it in a very obvious negative wording so that people aren't tempted to click because you know how tempted we are to click something without even reading it. So I used to get a lot of emails back saying oh no, I accidentally unsubscribed from the emails. So I make it very clear. And sometimes I'll even add an arrow after it saying, don't click till you've read it. Smart. Good morning. So yes, warning, because people really love to click things. So it's a good problem to have. But so that's a soft opt out.
Tip number five is from Linda Sidhu episode 154. Linda walks us through a simple five email sequence for your lead magnet welcome series.
After they went through that step, they entered a welcome series where I was building my know like and trust factor. And in every lead magnet, you want to have a welcome series and it's typically five emails want to be like here's your quiz results and share the result again, then you want one that kind of validates them. The third email you want to build your know like and trust factor share some things about you credibility markers.
Number four is kind of closing the loop with the validation one and offering a tip to help with their pain points. And then the fifth email is to ask them to join your quiz program or join whatever course or whatever your offer is right at the end. And then that point, I was asking people to join my launch mechanism, which was the nail your quiz idea challenge. So I was sending it to the challenge. And then from the three day nuclear quiz idea challenge. I did that for three days. And then at the on the last day, I opened the doors to the quiz lab, and then also offered discovery calls after that.
Oh my gosh, you shared so much value in those last five to 10 minutes, Linda, I hope that all of you maybe pause right here rewind and go and write down that five email sequence that welcome sequence. I think that is so beneficial to have, regardless of what your top of funnel lead magnet is, whether it is a quiz, or it's something else. I think that is something that all of us should implement. So that's amazing, Linda.
Tip number six is for Merel Kriegsman episode 186. Merel explains how to infuse credibility pieces into your regular emails and newsletters that invite responses from your subscribers and readers.
The second thing I wanted to ask you to give a little bit more detail on is the credibility piece I totally agree credibility amnesia is a condition that plagues many of us, especially women as you astutely observed. So I I would like to know what are two to three opportunities women can look out for insert a credibility piece. Can you give us some examples of that?
Yeah, and actually, it's like a very simple process like very beautiful, graceful, simple, like I love it when it's simple. What I have my people do is just create a long long list, like 2535 things that give them credibility period. So it's not even like specifically in your fields that you currently are in, I have as one of the pieces of credibility that I often talk about and put forward, I homebirth, all our three daughters, and wow, I still feel like wow, that was courageous, which is, you know, and the last verse of the birth of our third daughter was actually here on the farm.
So like, on an acreage with a midwife, and it was a 90 minute birth, and it wasn't close to 10 pound baby. And it was like, such an amazing experience. So I, for example, I have that as a blog post on my, on my website, I have like the three birth stories of our children and sort of how I felt what I did when I woke up, how I navigated, like, you know, basically having to deliver that day, because it was 1011 days overdue, and you know, all those things.
And again, it shows people like my inner workings, right, in this in this particular case, it's, you know, quite a personal topic, because I have higher comfort levels with that. But you know, you can do it about something else as well. Less personal, and people on sales calls and stuff like that will refer back to, oh, I really felt like a connection with you when you shared that. Right? I really felt like, oh, yeah, she understands what it's like.
So make a list of all the things that you've ever done, that just make you like a badass human being. Right where you're like, that took tremendous courage, or that was really like wisdom incarnates, you know, like, in that moment, I'm proud of that. So make make that long list. And then of course, some of them are going to be like your client wins. Some of them are going to be case studies of some of the own right sort of maybe projects or experiments that you did, some of them are going to be work related or business related. And some of them aren't. Have that list ready like to go sort of like either on your desktop or on like an actual physical list. And just constantly remind yourself to weave in those stories on a regular basis. It's like one of those things that I asked myself, like, when I send an email, sick, did I layer some credibility in here, right, of some variety, so really, like holistically.
That is really, really powerful, because to your point, and I'm really glad actually, that the example you gave was not business related, because it is exactly like how we started our conversation with this idea that just because you're new to entrepreneurship, doesn't mean you have no credibility, right? You Your transference of your past career, or past life skills, your background, your lived experience, all form credibility, and they all still speak to your competence and your unique gifts that you can bring to the table.
And so I really, really love that idea of using that filtering question. Before you hit send, ask yourself did I weave in one piece of credibility in here from my list? So that's the homework assignment for all of you today is to sit down, write that power list, write that list of anything that has made you proud in your life. That is very encouraging. I just have this like little nub, but someone listening on the other end might be like, okay, okay, I really get that. And that's exciting. But like, how does that relate to what I'm actually selling my business? So I, I got to backtrack for just one second.
So let's take what you just shared your burden story, right for your children. If you were to weave in that as a piece of credibility, I know it might be hard to verbatim speak to like an example. But like, yeah, what could you exactly Could you show us like, how do you actually relate that to what you're selling, or to your business? So it doesn't just feel like a random story, that popped up in the middle
Information? Yeah. So I actually love speaking to this. So when you have an email newsletter, it's actually really cool to sometimes have a whole bunch that don't have a call to action. Right, other than just a welcoming of like responses and co-sharing of stories, especially in between launches. Like not every email has to have a CTA. It's like contrary to industry advice, right? Where it's sort of like how do I get the most out of my email list is sort of like this extraction, airy attitude. No, I literally share stories and I and I might say, like, I feel this story matters so deeply to me that I'm quite sure it will matter to you too.
And I might not quite know why or how but I'm going to share it and then you're going to write me back and help me understand why this is important. Right so I I call create, right? It's like a reciprocal relationship that way where sometimes I am just vulnerable and saying like, this really mattered to me this happened and and that felt really deep, right? So there's that it gets me lots of replies, people like sharing things, when you've shared something with them, they want to, they want to share a similar story.
And then if I were to tie it back to just answer that specific question, when you think of business, right, like, we're all just like birthing the next big idea, the next big venture, right, so there's like I could talk about, like birthing energy, and how it's less always have to be a human child. And sometimes, you know, we encountered those stages of birth giving, like in the very projects that we run,
That is really helpful, tying in that analogy. I was going to say that's so interesting, I just had kind of an aha moment, as you were into this, this idea of co creation within your content. I think so often when we email or it doesn't have to be email any form of content medium now, really, we feel like we have to deliver an answer, like, I'm telling you this because, you know, something definitive that we've already wrapped up nicely in a bow, I really like that you have this approach of, you know, sometimes I share a piece of credibility or a story, that I may not know what the reason for sharing this is.
But you can tell me why this is meaningful to you. And the fact that it's not a perfectly delivered answer, but rather you are inviting them to help you create the answer. That is a really interesting process that I haven't really thought about before as it relates to email writing. So that was a new aha for me. I hope that was a new Aha.
Reception. Oh, there we go.
Yeah, the first question exactly. I love this.
And the final tip, Lucky number seven is from me. In bonus episode number nine, I reveal the conversation killer, you need to remove from the end of your emails to stop getting ghosted. And what you should say, instead.
Stop ending your emails with this sentence. Let me know if dot dot dot let me know if you're interested. Let me know if you would like to do this, let me know fill in the blank, right?
This is a conversation killer. I'll tell you why. When you end an email with let me know if it's a statement. It's not a question and the way that our brains are wired. We as humans don't feel the same urgency or responsibility to respond to a statement as we do a direct question. When you say let me know if it basically gives people permission to make a mental rain check and say, Yeah, I'll let you know if I'm interested, which may be never, or it may be some time far in the future. And by then I'll have forgotten to respond in the first place. What I would highly recommend you do instead is to flip that statement into an actual question.
So what is the question look like? Instead of saying, let me know if you're interested, you could instead say, are you interested in? Fill in the blank with whatever desired action you have? Are you interested in having me on your show? Are you interested in this proposed partnership? Are you interested in joining our program? Do you see how when you ask a specific direct question to someone, especially if it's a yes, no question, it's a lot harder for the person receiving that question on the other end to just blatantly ghost you and ignore a direct question, right? A question invites a response. A statement, on the other hand, does not.
So that's one way you can change that statement into a question. But I also want to give you six more ways that you can end your emails, depending on what the context is, in a way that invites a response. For example, maybe you can say, Would you like to move forward on this? You can ask someone? Are you open to exploring this further? If you're giving someone options, maybe you can say which option do you prefer? You can ask someone? Do you have any initial questions? You can also ask someone? What are your thoughts on this? And finally, you can ask them if you're trying to schedule a meeting what time works best for you? All seven of these responses, the six that I just said as well as the variations of are you interested in fill in the blank? are better options than ending an email with let me know if you're interested.
If you apply this one tip to your emails, whether it is a personal private email you send to one individual or a mass marketing email you send to your inbox hire list. I promise you just by implementing this one simple tip, you are going to see a dramatic increase in the number of responses you actually get to your emails. And I bet you you'll see a higher success rate on your pitches as well. Going to close more deals, land more partnerships, secure more press, and media interviews and all the things that you want when you start ending your emails with a question rather than a generic statement.
Thanks for tuning in to today's email marketing tips round up. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you add to your play next cue the other best of roundups we've published on themes like podcasting, launching, pitching, lead generation, conversion, customer feedback, and marketing. We'll make sure to drop clickable links below in the show notes or in the video description if you're watching on YouTube.
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