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S2E9 what-you-believe-matters-microaggressions-and-bias | Otter.ai

S2E9 what-you-believe-matters-microaggressions-and-bias

Natalia Sobery22min

Angell Howard

00:01

microaggressions were rapid in the workplace, mainly because we don't call them out. We let people say hurtful things we just kind of ignored and we move on. And I think about things that are said to me all the time. That is a microaggression. But people may look at it as a compliment is, I like to wear colorful nails, I wear my pink lipstick, I wear big earrings a lot. And what people say to me in my work environment is they'll say something like, oh, Angel, you look so festive. Or they'll say, Oh, I love your nails. But I just can't get away with that. I can't do that. And even though it seemed like a compliment, what they're really saying is, I would never wear that loud Cohen. Now College because it doesn't fit.

Steve Fast

00:39

Even for the best intention to creating an inclusive workplace, classroom or any environment takes a bit of work. Often individuals might not realize how their experience has left them lacking in an understanding of others. This is random acts of knowledge presented by Heartland Community College, I'm your host, Steve fast. Today, we are going to have a discussion about some of the things we believe, even if we don't quite know why we believe them. And also, we'll talk about how learn habits and unconscious bias can get in the way of a truly inclusive environment.

Angell Howard

01:13

My name is Angel Howard. I currently work at Illinois State University. I'm the Associate Director of Professional Development and staff recognition. I also have a consulting business called necessary change consulting, where I work with organizations within higher ed corporate, not for profit, and I help them with their strategic plans when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion. And that can be from assessment all the way to creating our diversity teams and trainings for their staff and faculty. Within heartland, I'm going to have three classes, one focuses on stereotypes, myths and misconceptions. One will focus on microaggressions. And then the other one was talking about racism, something that we don't always talk about, well,

Steve Fast

01:52

talking about racism, and the potential of it being part of someone's ingrained kind of culture and reaction is got to be a difficult thing to talk about is hard to talk to people about racism without putting somebody on the defensive.

Angell Howard

02:09

So I personally think that it takes a special skill to do the work. I think something that I pride myself in is my background in social work, and counseling and having, you know, tough conversations about people's lives with them. And to me, I think that's very similar to talking about the way that we think and the way that we believe. And so when it comes to racism, and that being something that we learn, we learn it from people that we love, we learn it from TV, we learn it from the books we read, like there's so many things that are against us when it comes to talking about this topic, right. And so I think it can be very challenging. If you come at it from a standpoint of I need you to know what you're doing wrong. I don't come at it from that standpoint, I kind of come at it from the standpoint of okay, I need you to assess yourself. And question, do I do these things? And what do I need to do to change that. And so I really try to teach people to do self work, and not me pointing at you saying you are doing this wrong, you need to do this, you need to become better. And so I think that makes it easier to talk about. Plus I come from a standpoint of being a listener, like, even if I know you about to say something that isn't gonna make me feel very good, I'm still going to situate myself as a listener. So that then we can have a full conversation. Because sometimes the information that they have, they truly believe it, like they truly believe it. And if you are taught something from your parents, I mean, I don't know about you, but I grew up with a black mother. And we don't tell our mothers that they liars. Like we just listen, and we do it. And so if you grow up in an environment where you don't get to ask why you don't get to question, you stay in your place, you don't get to, you know, explore, then how else are you supposed to believe. And so I come from that standpoint, my understanding that people come from that background, and I'm there to enlighten them, and not make them feel bad for the fact that that's where they come from.

Steve Fast

04:02

I think a lot of the real challenge is so many biases that people have are unconscious, they might not even realize that there are things that they just accept as absolute or normalized, right? So how can how do you get people to start to do that self examination to recognize their own unconscious bias?

Angell Howard

04:25

Something I say all the time is that you have to figure out where the thought was planted. So you know how I mean, I'm not, I don't have a green thumb, but I can grow a little bit of something. And sometimes you have to figure out where it was planted. And dig that up, before you can understand why you feel the way you do. And so, you know, I think about growing up, we talked about police a lot in my household, you know, because I had seven brothers. I grew up in low income area. And as a black person, we just had a conversation of what we do and don't do. So growing up. You have this fear of doing the wrong thing. mean. And so you connect fear with being, you know, afraid of something like it's something I shouldn't fear not understanding that yes, there's a separation between good cop bad cop, you know, yes fear the ones that may do me wrong, but there are many out there that will do me, right. And so it's this thing of stripping that down and allowing yourself to say, Well, where do we get that information from? Why did I start to feel that way. And if I felt that way, in 1980, when my mother was talking to me about it, do I need to still feel that way in 2022. And so it's questioning each year, because just like generations, things change. And so I can't apply things the way that I was taught back in the day, and I definitely can't apply it from something that my great grandmother might have taught me, because my great grandmother may, you know, may have picked cotton herself. She has a totally different view than my 2022 views. So I have to be very careful of who gave me the information. And at what time they gave me that information. And does it apply the same way right now? And so is teaching people how to do that? Why do I think this? Where did it come from? What year did it come from? Do I still need to believe it to be true right now,

Steve Fast

06:05

when it comes to information today, there's such a heightened public media sense of what is even true and not, you know, do you find that makes people kind of double down and really go back to the things that they maybe were exposed to when they were really young to three years old, which may have been from a very limited background and given them perceptions that maybe they really hold on to because they start to see this confirmation of a certain storyline or stereotype in the media or on Facebook or something like that?

Angell Howard

06:39

Definitely, definitely, if something is reiterated and all you see, the only thing that's in front of you is confirming their belief, then of course, you're gonna hold on to it. But that's the method of things, you know, that's the goal of it. And so I teach folks all the time that you have to go explore experiences and identities that are not your own. And no matter what, we tend to stick with what we know. So, you know, I tell the story all the time about growing up and having these movies that we would consider Black movies that aren't just like, the best movies to me. And I'll ask my white friends, have you seen? Have you seen Harlem knights? Have you seen this? No, like, No. And I'm like, Why? Why have you not seen that? Because I've seen a million white romcoms like I just have? And so I tell them, we have to question what was it that made you say how nice was not for you. And that's the thing that we have to challenge. Like, we got to get out there and see things that's not of us that don't look like us that don't have the same identities as us so that we can see the difference. Because if you only go watch Desperate Housewives of Atlanta, and think that you know who black women are from watching that show, you don't be sadly mistaken with me, because I'm nothing like them. But that's what we do. We won't go watch becoming from Michelle Obama to understand you know, what she's saying, as a black woman, but we will watch reality TV, and then use that against black women. That's where we mess up. So we got to explore and get out there and see things differently and see people differently and see the positives and the negatives, because I tell folks all the time when it comes to stereotypes, if you go down a list of stereotypes about black people, do I have family members that hit everyone? Yes. But do I have family members that don't? Yes. And so it's not the point that a stereotype doesn't sometimes actually depict someone. It just doesn't depict everyone. And that's what I think people are comfortable with. They're comfortable saying, Well, I know this stereotype so that I'm gonna apply that to everyone that looks like that. That's the era, you know. I mean, it just is what it is an Italian grandma, like, you can see a movie that tells her Italian grandma, and you go find 10 grandmas, it's just like that, but then you'll also find an Italian grandmother totally different. And so we don't challenge that enough within ourselves, like breaking those type of thoughts.

Steve Fast

08:49

Yeah, there are plenty of Italian grandmas that cannot cook. Yes,

Angell Howard

08:53

exactly. Exactly.

Steve Fast

08:57

So something I want to I want to shift gears slightly and talk more about like the classroom or the workplace, and where you start to see behaviors that people may have developed, consciously or unconsciously, that really are triggering for some people. And I think until these discussions really have started to become more regular, become part of an inclusive environment, the workplace or college, that they weren't given a second thought, but the people they affect it really does. And a lot of that is a talk about micro aggressions. So for those who haven't had kind of exposure to this concept before, can you talk a little bit about what are micro aggressions?

Angell Howard

09:40

Yeah. So you know, when it comes to micro aggressions, you know, they're basically they'll slights that people say, and we say consciously and unconsciously, because some of them just come out, you know, and some of them we know we don't want so and they're not all as unconscious as we think. But it's surrounded by what we think about people when it comes to their identity. Be their belief system, their cultures, it's based on what we think of those things, and what we think in a positive way or a negative way. And so we tend to say these things that come out of our mouth, that can be little someone or dismiss them as a person who, who is smart, who is strong, you know, we may dismiss them, because we don't know any better, or because we really want you to feel that way. And microaggressions won't rapid in the workplace, in classrooms, mainly because we don't call them out. We let people say hurtful things, we just kind of ignore it, and we move on. And so you know, I think about things that are like said to me all the time, that is a microaggression. But people may look at it as a compliment is, I like to wear colorful nails, I wear my pink lipstick, I wear big earrings a lot. And what people say to me in my work environment is they'll say something like, oh, Angel, you look so festive. Or they'll say, Oh, I love your nails. But I just can't get away with that. I can't do that. And even though it seemed like it's competent, what they're really saying is, I would never wear that lauchlan nail polish because it doesn't fit who I am. Or they'll ask me, How do I get away with it? Because I work on in the same space that they're in. And so that word festive? Isn't the compliment? What do you mean festive? Like, are my colors? You know, it's almost like saying that doesn't belong here. But somehow you get away with it. You know. And I know, again, it's hard for people to see that as something that's hurtful. But when that's done to me consistently, especially in spaces where I'm the only black woman or the only black person, then we have to understand that there's a hidden meaning behind that. And so you know, it's as simple as a person attending a college and asking them, how did you get here? How did you get accepted in this school? Well, I got accepted just like someone else did. And so as a black person, because it happens to me so often, anything like that, I have to stop and question. Were they trying to be nice? Or was that a microaggression? You know, and that's exhausting for people to have to do. But a lot of people, especially in LGBTQ plus community, especially folks of color, especially women, you know, anybody who's perceived to hold less power in a room can be easily micro aggressed. And that's exhausting. It's exhausting to have to think, did you mean to hurt me? Or were you really trying to compliment me? And that takes away from me being the person that I can be in an environment? So it's very challenging?

Steve Fast

12:24

Do you say challenging the most challenging part of it, right? Because just by the way, you describe it, the people that are often the subject of the microaggression are the people that have the least amount of power, or maybe traditionally the least amount of power, right? And even if they do have power in a workplace or something, that type of behavior almost can be perceived, intentionally or unintentionally, to knock them down a peg, right? So if you are somebody that is, is in that mode, where you then are questioning or you're on the defensive, or you have to wonder what's really going on? How do you address it? How do you address it, because that I mean, that confidence to do that doesn't just show up, you know, especially if you don't know, if you're in an environment where that's a practice, people are educated.

Angell Howard

13:13

Yeah. And so the truth is, I shouldn't have to be the one that Google is addressing it, although I do a lot of empowerment conversations with people to help them, figure out how to go about that. But I talk to the other folks. And you know, and I tell folks, I need you to deal with your friends and your people. So if you see someone being micro, and I'm gonna tell you what happens all the time, and you can verify this with many folks. But what will happen is there'll be in an environment, someone will say something to me, that's really hurtful, micro aggressive. I choose not to say something in that moment, because it's not the time for me to say it. But then I can promise you, somebody is going to meet me at my office and say, Angel, I'm so sorry that that was said to you. I'm so sorry. That right there, that's not supportive. Because you're coming to me to tell me that you thought something terrible happened that you didn't speak on, but you wanted me to know you saw it, I need you to go meet the person that said it. Because nine times out of 10, that's your friend, or somebody that you work with closely. And you may look like them. And so you go meet them at their office and say, you know, what you just said to Angel was really hurtful. That was a microaggression. And I just want to talk to you about that, because I think that you owe her an apology. That's the problem. We don't get folks to do that. Because they would rather comfort me in my pain than to challenge someone that's their friend or their co worker. And so my goal is to teach people to feel empowered to to go to them. And it doesn't have to be a computation. It can be as simple as hey, Steve, I know that you are a good person and I know that your heart is good because we I know you know you but what you just did in that room that did not reflect who you are. And I really want you to you know, kind of replay it in your head so you can hear how Angel probably heard it. You No, and being able to do that, and make that person challenging themselves is so much more powerful, then you come in and meet me in my office to tell me I know you were hurt, and I just didn't say nothing, because that's gonna make me look at you crazy. Like, don't come to my office. And so it is a thing where an office has to create an environment where one, I can feel safe to say, hey, that was hurtful what you just said to me, but also an environment, why I know that there's five or six other people that's going to meet you in your office and be like, Hey, what'd you say was hurtful. And so that's kind of the, the way that I like to combat it, to approach it, I mean, and I hope that it doesn't have to be the person harmed having to be the person that call it out all the time,

Steve Fast

15:44

or microaggressions, always verbal,

Angell Howard

15:47

um, no, it can be as simple as your name not being put on a list, you know, you not being invited to a certain event, you not being considered to be a part of something because they don't think you have the skills to do it be left out. So microaggressions can come in many, many, many forms. You know, it could be me grabbing my purse, when a young man walks past me blocking my door, when someone is walking past my car, because they are a person of color. So it can be many, many forms. And it comes in 1000, you know, but the ones that we can recognize the most are the ones that come out of people's mouths.

Steve Fast

16:28

So I think the situation that you talked about a little bit earlier, there's always going to be that person that is approached, and they're like, Well, I didn't mean it, though. There's an empathy gap. Because if somebody would have said something to them, they wouldn't have offended them or wouldn't have, because they're not in that situation. Right. So that, that I think, is the hard part with education. How, what can people in the environments of a workplace, whatever do to try to kind of get people to be more aware and to accept that kind of awareness? Because they're like, Well, I didn't intend it that way. Or yeah, you know, even though we're swimming in a pool of unconscious biases sometimes. And so they may be intended that way without being overtly malicious.

Angell Howard

17:17

So there's a few things one, we have to recognize that intent and impact are two different things. Because that's kind of what happens in a situation I come to you. And I say, you just hurt me. You say, Well, I didn't mean it that way. How did I hurt you? Why did that hurt you? And then now you're turning me into the educator. Now, I gotta teach you on why you hurt me. And so even if you didn't intend on hurting me, but it hurt me, then that's an impact. And that's what we deal with first. And so I tell folks that if you see or hear that, then just apologize. Just say I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you. If there's a moment that you want to talk about this to help me understand completely, then I'm all ears. I don't want you to have to do that now. But I'm ready to talk about it whenever you want to, because I don't ever want to do it. Again. It's paying attention to people's body language. A lot of times if you say something that hurts me now, I'm always involved in a meeting. But if you say something that hurts me, then I shut down a little bit. And I don't talk as much. If you notice that I'm not talking as much, say to me, Angel. I don't know what I just did. But I don't want to do it again. I noticed that your body language change your voice change. And I just want to know, what did I do? Tell me so I don't do it again, plain and simple. And then I can say, well, you might go aggressive. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to do that. But not well, how did I microaggression? What did I say? What did I do? And that's really a defense mechanism. Even if you think about if you fight in which your spouse is only they say you did. So when I do it, tell me tell me the date and time and what shirt I had on. And then I believe you, you know, that's kind of how we fight. And that's always for five. If you really care about hurting people, then as soon as they tell you that they're hurt, you stop what you're doing. And you deal with that hurt and you don't run away from it. And so that's a big thing that intendant impact, what I also tell people who are watching. My question that I tell folks to ask all the time is, if you hear something said, even if you know that it is completely bogus, say What do you mean by that? Help me understand what you mean by that, and see if they actually talk to you, or what experiences have you had that makes your statement true? Help me understand what has happened that that makes you believe that and then just sit down and listen. So it's not an attack, it's really asking helped me understand. Now what happens when a person were really meant to hurt whoever they hurt, they get defensive, and they don't talk to you. But if a person really didn't mean to hurt you, they're gonna pause what they're doing. And they're gonna say, well, well, what I actually meant works. And so that's how you can kind of tell that difference. Now, people who also didn't mean to hurt you still get defensive, though, because they don't know how to deal with being told that I did something wrong. But a lot of times those people will come back and say, You know what, I was completely wrong. And I'm sorry, I know I was defensive, my apology. But that's, you know, that 30% Most of the other ones who meant to hurt you? Well, you know, you I say what I said or you know, it's a defensive thing and it's is not a conversation. And so I just tell people keep those things in your packet, talk about intent and impact. And then ask them just What do you mean by that? Help me understand what you mean by that. Also, if I'm in a room and somebody's being pounded on and somebody's being harmed, and it doesn't seem like they can protect themselves, then that is my time to come in and try to get that person off of them. So change the conversation to Angel, hey, Angel, I want your support with something, can you come in another room with me? So it's, instead of trying to be the Savior is trying to get me out of that space. And so there's multiple ways to do that, to support me, without trying to be the hero. The classes that I'm going to have will come from, I always say that I teach I teach the truth, but I teach it with love. And so when people come, I want them to come with an expectation to learn to maybe unlearn a few things. But also, don't try to come teach me come as a learner. And even if what I say you know, like the back of your hand, then allow other people to learn in that space too. But I do everything with love. I don't try to harm anyone. It doesn't mean that people don't feel triggered in some way sometimes. But I challenge people to come with open arms without defense. Because I'm not there to harm anyone. I'm only there to help them in their relationships and to help them help other people.

Steve Fast

21:20

Well, Angel thanks so much for taking some time to talk to us today. I look forward to your courses with the continuing education department Hartley Community College.

Angell Howard

21:27

Thank you so much, I appreciate it.

Steve Fast

21:36

Angel Howard is an educator who works at Illinois State University and teaches the classes what you believe matters, understanding and addressing microaggressions stereotypes, myths and misconceptions, and exploring and understanding racism for the continuing education department at Heartland Community College. If you'd like to hear other interviews about professional development, creating an inclusive workplace, or other topics, please check out our other random acts of knowledge podcasts on Apple podcasts, Spotify, audio boom, or wherever you've heard this one. Thanks for listening

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