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Season 5, Episode 1: B.E.T.T.E.R Ed- Transforming Disability Awareness in Schools | Otter.ai

Season 5, Episode 1: B.E.T.T.E.R Ed- Transforming Disability Awareness in Schools

Savitha Sundar58min

Savitha Sundar

00:01

Savitha, hello and welcome back to inclusive occupations. I'm your host. Savitha Sundar. In season four, we heard from young adults with disabilities and or their parents, powerful stories of navigating inclusion, celebrating wins and facing barriers. This season, we turn to action. Season Five spotlights the programs, tools and initiatives created by inclusion ambassadors, the people making inclusion a reality in school communities and beyond. From practical Classroom Strategies to innovative whole school efforts, we'll explore the resources that transform belonging from an idea into everyday practice. This is inclusive occupations. Season Five, where stories meet solutions.

Savitha Sundar

01:00

Welcome to inclusive occupations, sharing stories of not just being invited to the party but dancing. I'm your host. Savitha Sundar, I'm a school based occupational therapist. This podcast is a space for OTs and others who work with children and youth in education to be informed, inspired and empowered to create an inclusive community for the students they serve in our first episode of season five, I'm thrilled to welcome two incredible change makers, the co founders of better Ed guide spelled b, e, t, t, e r, Ed first meet Amrita sarintak, whose journey into disability advocacy began in 2019 after a successful career as a Wall Street banker. Since then, she's dedicated herself to fostering equity in school communities. Amrita is a published writer on ESG and impact investing, a member of the capital speakers Club in Washington, DC, and on a personal note, a passionate runner and freelance business journalist. She lives in Bethesda with her husband and kids Joining her is Kaya Dugan, a longtime ally and advocate whose path was shaped when her son was diagnosed with cerebral palsy in 2011 for nearly a decade, Kaia has brought disability awareness education into K to four classrooms, volunteered with para athletic organizations and contributed her voice to multiple dei initiatives. With a background in marketing and product management. Kaya lives in Harrison, New York with her husband, their three children and their dog, Millie. Together, Amrita and Kaya are pursuing master's degrees in disability studies and education, and together, they launched better Ed guide, an initiative that transforms how schools understand and integrate disability awareness through tailored workshops and immersive experiences, they are helping build truly inclusive mindsets. Amrita and Kaya, I'm so honored to have you both here on inclusive occupations. Let's begin by hearing about your journey. What led each of you to this work, and how did your personal and professional experiences inspire the creation of better Ed guide. Amrita, would you like to go first?

Amrita

03:23

Well, first of all, Savitha, thank you so much for having us on your podcast today, where we're excited to be here. We've seen some of your work, and we're excited to be able to collaborate with you. When my son was diagnosed with a disability, I thought about how I grew up. Now, my earliest election recollection with disability was growing up within the Brooklyn Public School system where kids with disabilities were segregated and labeled into special ed. Now I was never mean to those kids, but nor was I particularly nice to my peers, like I kept my distance, because that's just what you did. So when my son, when my son was diagnosed, I wanted things to be different. My daughter, at the time, had just started attending a school in the DC area, and had asked the principal of that school what work or exposure they were doing around disability, disability awareness, she said, not much. And what did I have in mind? And hence, the launch of of better at guide,

Savitha Sundar

04:31

so your daughter is the older one, and then yes, her son, okay, okay, yes, got

Amrita

04:37

it. Teachers, especially those at independent schools, feel that this topic doesn't pertain to them, particularly if they're not sped which the name in itself, special ed is an issue and euphemistic. And frankly, that's where we got our name, our original logo was better at guide with a line through special ed. You know, these teachers couldn't be more wrong, you know. So that's really why. We launched better at guide.

Savitha Sundar

05:03

Thank you. Amrita,

Kaya

05:05

Gaia, hi. Also thank you for having us. We're really excited to speak with you today. I have a similar story. My son, who's now 15, has cerebral palsy and is neurodivergent. I also have two older daughters who were attending a great school at the time, and one of the things I liked in particular about their school was its approach to identity, work and diversity, but yet they weren't really doing anything around disability. So I began working on programs there with the school, and was introduced to Amritha, although I live in New York, we were we work together. I was introduced to her through a mutual friend, and we began working together. And this has really allowed us to meet so many incredible researchers, activists and mentors. It's been a great journey.

Savitha Sundar

06:00

Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Kaya. And I totally hear you when you say that. When you get into this line, you just end up meeting so many, like people just come along the way, so many activists and scholars in the area. And it's just, it's just a very, I would say, energizing journey to see that you are not alone in this battle.

Kaya

06:23

Yeah, people are very kind with their time and their efforts. It's been great.

Savitha Sundar

06:30

Yeah, definitely. And so tell us what better Ed stands for, B, E, T, T, E, R is an acronym. And can you expand on that Russ

Kaya

06:43

grandchild? So I'll let her

Amrita

06:47

so better to better add in terms of the actual acronym, the B stands for battle, stigmas, the E, embrace differences, the first T, transform thinking. T, teach future leaders, E, illicit action, R, recognize strengths. Those are our goals, to battle the stigmas, to embrace differences, to change the way we think our society thinks, and the way we do that is to teach our future leaders and to elicit action. We need to make change and to recognize strengths in all of us. Again, like I mentioned earlier, there's nothing special about having a disability, no more than anything special about not having a disability, but we're all special, and it's about making change and changing the way we think as a society around disability and around able, which we believe is, is quite rooted in in our society today, and you know, even historically. So yeah, stigmas and discrimination around disability.

Savitha Sundar

07:55

I love it and and just, just so our audience are all on the same page. When you say independent schools, I know, like here in the Texas area, all our schools are called independent schools. Our public schools are called independent schools, but I think you are referring to private schools in the DC and New York area, where you started and continue this work.

Amrita

08:13

Yes, so we targeted the independent schools, and what we mean by that, to your point is the private schools, because, by law, public schools have to provide an education for all children, those with disabilities and not the independent schools aren't necessarily required by law to do so. So we figured there would be a good place to start, because we, you know, quote, unquote, think that there aren't as many students with disabilities as part of their student body. So you know, you're already starting from a from a place where there's less exposure. So let's go to first.

Savitha Sundar

08:53

So you you've said that schools have a responsibility to embrace disability as a vital part of human diversity. Can you unpack that for our listeners, and why is this perspective important in today's educational landscape?

Amrita

09:07

Sure. Well, you think about it right. Diversity, in all its forms, brings such depth to communities. When you look at the most significant contributors and innovators across all sorts of genres, whether it's science, technology, the art. Many throughout history and even present day have had disabilities. There's value from learning from diverse perspectives, and people with disabilities have much to contribute. Now, as you shared, I come from a finance background, right? I like sharing the example that teachers their 401 KS or their financial portfolios need to be diverse for many reasons, including the potential for growth opportunities. Very similarly, you want diversified perspectives in classes, which makes for a richer learning environment. It's the same exact a. Way to think about it, Einstein, right, who arguably is the most smartest person to have ever lived, is believed to have had a disability. Where would we be without his findings? So I, I'd say, you know, disability is a natural form of human variation, and often to highest point, disability is left out of diversity and identity conversations in a meaningful way, disability is part of someone's identity, and yet there's often pity associated with disability. You'd never say, hey, Amrita, I'm sorry that you're female and Indian. I mean, it's the same thing, right?

Speaker 1

10:40

Yeah,

Kaya

10:42

exactly. I think considering disability as a part of one's identity has been foundational in the field of disability studies, which grounds our work starting back with the original social models of disability developed in the 80s. For those who aren't familiar, a social model distinguishes between disability and impairment and argues that people are disabled by barriers in society, whether those barriers are physical, attitudinal, systemic, but those barriers are more disabling than the impairment itself. And disability models have evolved over time, and there's been a lot of important work through the past several decades, which continues today, the neurodiversity movement, the disability justice framework, which not only looks at identity, but centers intersectionality, which is critical and the value of interdependence. And these are really important perspectives and frameworks around disability, and they're just left out of diversity and identity conversations in schools. And when disability is discussed, it's usually a narrative, as amartha said, of pity or someone overcoming their disability. And there are other kind of damaging tropes. And we think, you know, disability has very much been other historically, as opposed to being positioned as a natural form of human diversity. And that's what we're trying to change. And we believe that schools are in a unique position to make this change happen for a few reasons. I mean, first, schools exist to help children become right. It's a big part of where kids develop their sense of self, their sense of others. And studies tell us that kids notice differences at a very young age, and even if they're not talking about it, they're internalizing which differences are valued by society and which aren't. And so how we set up our schools, what we prioritize, what we talk about, this is all sending messages to the students. And so, you know, schools, therefore need to be able to not only meet the needs of all their students, but also foster a sense of belonging for everyone, including students with disabilities and those with multiple historically marginalized identities, and also schools, you know, for the students that aren't disabled, schools are creating the leaders of tomorrow. According to the CDC, one in four Americans have a disability, and this is an identity that all students need to better understand and appreciate in order to effectively lead in whatever field they choose. So it's really important that schools understand this as part of identity and and incorporate that work into into their schools.

Savitha Sundar

13:38

Yes, thank you for for bringing that up. And I guess, you know, inclusive occupations podcast is geared towards just that. We believe that schools are the microcosm of our society, and this is where we can initiate change for the future generation, and the fact that we are trying to retrofit people with disabilities into a society that wasn't designed for them, makes this work all the more complicated and complex, and it takes a village of people to make lasting changes happen in society. So we're all adding our bit to it, I suppose. So thank you for the amazing work you do. So tell me So in your experience, you've been supporting a lot of schools through your programming and through your services. So in your experience, how are schools currently approaching disability awareness and inclusion, if at all? And where do you see the gaps and where is progress being made?

Kaya

14:43

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think schools have come a long way in terms of supporting students with disabilities, right? If you look at the past 5060, years, mostly due to the legislation implemented Americans with Disabilities Act, individuals with. Disabilities Education Act, the Improvement Act. But as you know, when you talk about many students with disabilities are still taught and supported in a segregated fashion, separate classrooms, separate schools, despite a host of research telling us that inclusive environments are more beneficial to them and all students. So I think the first this needs to change in terms of student supports. I think, you know, there's been improvements recently, again, with legislation. The Supreme Court ruling in Andrew versus Douglas County kind of attempted to better define IEP standards, how to approach and define goals and making them more robust. However, there's still so much work to be done, and as we've kind of already referenced, we really believe it starts with a shift in how the education field views disability overall. We think disability studies concepts should be included in all teacher training and university education programs every teacher should learn about kind of the basis of disability studies, which doesn't currently happen today. I think because of the way we've been socialized to think about disabilities, many educators are still operating through a more medical model lens of disability, where they view the quote issue as lying within the student, right? And it's considered something that we need to fix or cure. When you look at most IEPs and educational support plans, they're still primarily structured with deficit based language. There's a lot of focus on impairments and shortages. As a parent going to those meetings, it's been over a decade, I still have to take a deep breath and brace myself for just it's very negative. Goals are often written in terms of fixing a child, and I think we need to shift our focus to fixing the environment. Let's look at how the environment, whether it's a physical environment or the educational structure itself, may be disabling certain students. Right? We need to shift to a strength based assessment language and focus on the environment and the supports how things like technology and scaffolding can enable student success.

Savitha Sundar

17:22

Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. And as you say this, I'm just, you know, I was thinking about, you know, the fact that teachers are kind and they genuinely believe that the kids that they are not capable of supporting kids with disabilities in a general education classroom, and therefore they need a separate classroom to be successful. So it's a very real concern coming from a good place, and a lack of knowledge about the research out there that shows that kids actually do better in a general education classroom than a separate classroom. And like you said, the teachers, I mean, this is the kids just imbibe the culture and imbibe the attitudes of their educators and the school community. So definitely, I think there's work in that space to educate teachers to understand. And actually, you know, work with them because they it's knowing is different from actually knowing within yourself and taking actions. So

Kaya

18:29

we're all hesitant with the unfamiliar, right? If you don't know exactly something, it feels much more difficult,

Savitha Sundar

18:36

and they have a job to keep on a day to day basis, and so many other struggles that go with teaching. You know, as somebody who worked in this works in the schools as in the education space, I, I mean, I have to give it to them that it's not, it's not easy from where they stand, and it really is little bit of effort in multiple directions, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Really

Amrita

18:59

important to emphasize Kai's point, that language is something that is probably the most common tool that needs to be sharpened. If you can't talk about something right to Kai's point, how can we make progress? And you might be hesitant to talk about disability, or even say the word disability, and then use euphemistic language to describe it, because that's how we've been socialized to think, and so the way we make changes towards impact and progress is by first understanding that we all make mistakes and that it's okay to make mistakes, but And to your point, I think a lot of teachers are really well intentioned, but if they don't feel like they are comfortable to talk about something, it then becomes a challenge. And I think the other thing I just want to mention is that, you know, I better guide. We really aim to change the school's culture and approach to identity and to disability. So let's reframe. The narrative when we teach our earliest kiddos the alphabet, let's also introduce Braille and ASL, so that they understand that these are other ways of communicating, right? We then normalize it when they're older. Let's share contributors who identify with a disability, whether their contribution has something to do with a disability or nothing at all to do with a disability. I mean, Matisse comes to mind. He created a whole new form of art when he started using a wheelchair. We often teach our students about the Civil Rights Movement. Let's talk to them about the disability rights movement. There's there's so much that I think growing up, we didn't learn about in terms of how pervasive ableism is in our society, how rooted it is in our culture and our history. And if you're taught that, then you are more aware of the bias, the inherent biases, the implicit biases that might be in the system and they might exist, and that's other ways for us to help combat, you know, some of the injustices that we think you know that still exist and still exist today.

Savitha Sundar

21:11

Very true, very true. I think language plays a huge role over here. So can you walk me through like, how does better Ed partner with schools? And how do you do this work, support, inclusive and aware learning environments through your programming,

Kaya

21:32

our work has taken on a few different formats over the years. At our core, we focus on professional development for educators and administrators around disability studies, and we believe that in order to make effective changes to the processes and the details, there has to be a fundamental shift in their understanding of disability based on what we've just talked about. So we start there. As you mentioned, everyone's usually really well intentioned, and they're just apprehensive to talk about the unfamiliar. So we try to create a safe environment, you know, reinforce, as Amritha said, that we all make mistakes our even though we're you know, now students and professionals in this space, our learning curves remain steep, and as we said, many of us, including teachers, grew up not talking about disability as children, we were hushed or told to look away if we were curious, and there was very little, if any kind of accurate or appropriate portrayal of disability in books and media and literature that's changing now, which is incredible, but that absence for many of us who are in certain generations, has only perpetuated stigma. I have a really vivid memory of taking my son to park when he was about four. He uses orthotics on his legs and has an arm brace, and he was playing with a little boy, and the boy started asking him questions about the orthotics, and his mother rushed over, shushed her son, apologized to me for his asking questions and pulled him away. She stopped them from playing, and I'll never forget the look on my son's face. Right her actions sends a message to both boys that there was something inherently wrong or shameful with my child, and although her, I think her intentions were positive, her behavior was far more damaging than the boy asking a few questions. And so I think, as Amritha said, We need to get people more comfortable talking about disability, so we start there. And I share these stories with the educators. We share our own vulnerabilities and biases. We talk about ableism language euphemisms, and I say this as a recovering euphemistic user myself, I use that language, you know, for a while, until I learned from the disability community. So so that's kind of where we start. And then, given that our work is rooted in disability studies, we were always very intentional about bringing in we think it's vital to bring in diverse voices and directly from the disability community through guest speakers and videos and such. So once we've kind of done that foundational work, we have schools kind of look at look at their community and their school from a few different angles, their culture and language, their curriculum and accessibility, we can provide suggestions and resources around making their schools more accessible, more neurodiversity affirming. We work with schools and how to evaluate their existing curriculum. They gave a couple examples and where they could weave in disability studies, concepts and perspectives. We've some a couple,

Savitha Sundar

24:41

like a curriculum audit. Is that what you do?

Kaya

24:44

Yeah, we help them enter to a curriculum audit, yeah. And we give them a lot of suggestions. And then, for example, we went through a curriculum PD, with one school, and an upper school literature teacher said, You know what? We only get to do a few books a year. I don't know that I could add one. We just did a separate piece, and now, just after this conversation, I can go back and have a much more robust, disability affirming conversation with my students about the same book. Like I don't need to change my curriculum. I just need to to weave in these elements now that I know you know about them, and then you know, we've also done some workshops with with students themselves and other community members, staff and families. And I know Amritha loves she loves history. She loves to talk. There's one and there's a lot of opportunities in history classes to weave in disability studies.

Kaya

25:40

Judy humans. I'll let her talk about the suggestions.

Amrita

25:42

Yeah. I mean, I think the one point I want to make. You know, Kai mentioned a separate piece, and we talk about history and and often folks think, okay, fine, Disability Studies, Humanities? No. I mean, you can incorporate mathematics steam. There's so many ways to incorporate. We have incorporated Disability Studies concepts across subject areas and across grades. One of the great examples I love sharing is in a physics class. If you're learning about speed, time, velocity, why not have the students build ramps right and you can build ramps at different angles. Have little matchbox cars going down the ramps. And you could also take it a step further and put different material on the Rams to slow down the speed, or or, or increase it. So all of a sudden they're building ramps, and they're learning about what they need to in terms of physics. And then there could be just a quick discussion on what are the benefits of ramps? Oh, well, they might be created for people who use wheelchairs. Sure, who else uses ramps, oh, for those who use push carts or walkers or those with baby strollers. So all of a sudden, it's not just for the disability population. Once again, an invention, quote, unquote, right, that was designed for disability population is being used by everybody else because there's benefit for everybody, this idea of universal design. So

Savitha Sundar

27:04

I love that, I love that you brought that up, because I always feel like, if education can be made more real life relevant, I think if we can encourage kids to think access in terms of like, whatever they learn, how can you use that knowledge to make the world more accessible for all kinds of learners and all kinds of people that I think it just opens up a huge opportunity for like, problem based learning, like experiential learning for all students, right? Yeah, definitely. I think that's wonderful.

Kaya

27:36

It's critical we really try to move away from the disability awareness where, oh, here's a certain disability, you know, with the empathy pity, it's more about access. So how can we make the world more equitable and accessible for everybody, and what are the tools and things we can do as a society to support everyone?

Amrita

27:57

And, yeah, education and this goes, this goes towards Universal Design for Learning or UDL concepts, but education needs to be accessible and relevant, right? If the concepts not relevant, you're going to most likely get an unmotivated, disengaged student. So how do you make concepts relevant? How do you get the students to care? You know, some teachers may think, well, that's not my my role is to teach them this. Your role, I would argue, is to have them learn. And the success of that is driven by the motivation and engagement piece. So I think, you know, too often, too often you we don't share real world examples, and so, you know, the students don't necessarily realize what you're teaching and how it could be applicable to them, and I think that's just really important. But UDL is certainly a framework that Kai and I are huge proponents of. We actually run specific sessions just dedicated to Universal Design for Learning, because we think it's really important and big concept for educators to embrace.

Savitha Sundar

29:10

So a personal question of your children, both your sons, how was their inclusion in terms of like so they both go to an independent school, right? And in the independent school, do they do they get to be part of all the classes that they are in, or do they get pulled out to be taught separately? And we can, we can always edit it out. If you don't feel comfortable talking about I know

Amrita

29:38

this is just a no no. I'm happy. I mean, I it's a little bit easier for me because my son's younger, so my son's a rising second grader at an independent school. He has been pulled out for, you know, the speech therapist is working with him on on a couple of things, so there's been some pull out sessions for him, but largely, he has been he. Has been part of an integrated within the class. For him, one of the biggest parts of his disabilities is global hypotonia, low muscle tone. So for him, when it comes to physical activities, let's say PE or gym, that's when his disability, perhaps, is more pronounced, and so I'm always concerned for him, like, hey, if we're running the half mile, you know is is, and the teachers are all aware, but he always he doesn't want to feel singled out. He doesn't want to feel like he hasn't done the job like all the other kids. So right now, at least, he continues to to participate in the PE activities. Having said that, he shared that, you know, let's say during recess while the while the other kids are kicking a soccer ball around, and he doesn't have the greatest coordination, he'll often be sitting by himself and watching the other kids play soccer or another sport. So, you know, I think the as the older he gets, I think he's becoming even more aware that he has a disability. We've we've tried, we've normalized what he has, and you talk about it at home, but I think the older he gets, you know, the probably be other things that that pop up. But I'm sure Kaya has probably richer anecdotes to share given his son's older,

Kaya

31:22

yeah, so my son just completed eighth grade. He's been in both public schools and private schools. He's been supported by a number of services, speech therapy, OT, PT, IEP, all of it, you know, ebbs and flows over the years. I think you know, and on the whole, educators are so committed to helping him, but it's hard. I think, you know, getting pulled out of class is disruptive. You know, there's, there's, there's a lot of ways I think we could make the process smoother, and I think that over the years, depending on the age, there's been different challenges. You know, middle school was much more challenging. I think socially, as Amritha mentioned, you know, when you have physical disabilities, being included in things like PE and the sports teams is challenging. And I think there are ways that schools could do a better job thinking about that, and when we work with schools, I do give a lot of I'm happy to share kind of personal examples of things that have worked well, because I have noticed some things with teachers over the years that have worked well. I think a lot of times, people try to help so much that they take a little bit of someone's independence and dignity away. And so I talk about that a lot, and how to, you know, one teacher, I think, in fourth grade, worked with my son to give, kind of a have him give a personal signal to the teacher, so that the teacher knew when he wanted extra help or if he just needed extra time, you know, so it didn't, kind of call it out in front of everyone. My son is incredibly socially aware, so he really tries hard to fit in as much as possible, which has made a lot of his accommodations challenging. He doesn't want to take advantage of them, which hurts him academically. So there's a lot of complications that kind of come with, I think, true inclusion. And I think, again, the best thing we can do as communities is talk about it. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it up front. And what's worked best with him is to just think ahead as much as possible, so having those signals, you know, talking to the teachers ahead of time as he's gotten older, really given giving him agency into what works for him and what doesn't. And so it's a it's a process, you know, and I think it's a journey that everyone's looks a little bit different, and every student is different. But the more we can, I think, understand disability overall, and then look at again, the barriers, and really focus on the barriers. And how do we remove these barriers, whether they're physical, educational or social, you know, attitudinal, those are big barriers. Those are big barriers, you know, and, and I think all schools are even independent in private schools, more and more students are being open about their learning disabilities and their neurodivergence and things like that. So we are making progress, and I think we just need to keep that momentum and really continue to look at it from that perspective and do what we can to be as inclusive in all those different areas of school, because it's not just about the classroom, it's about the lunchroom, recess with sports teams, the drama performances, all

Amrita

34:41

of it, and even outside the classroom, outside the schools. There was one school that we were working with, and one of the alumni had a disability, and the our contact at the school was sharing how this, this, this, this alumnus was, was saying that the school was great about fall. Inclusion, given his disability and whatnot, but it was the outside of after school, you know, when kids are getting together socially and what have you. And you know, perhaps the school can play a better part, or a bigger part, in facilitating some of that connectivity, right? Like, you know, schools exist for kids to belong. All these kids want a sense of belonging. And so, yeah,

Savitha Sundar

35:27

yeah, exactly. So I think, although we've come a long way, if we are not intentional about these facilitating, fostering these relationships, we cannot assume that they would happen naturally, which we often tend to like, Oh yeah, yeah, we are inclusive. We don't want to, you know, do anything to be explicit about it, because, oh yeah, yeah, we're all close. But then in the real, the reality comes in. And the other thing I always like come to recognize is inclusion and exclusion is a very dynamic process on a on a continuum, and faced by everybody, not only individuals with disabilities. And you can be, you know, may not have a identified disability, but you may definitely go through periods in your life and you feel extremely excluded. And I think having these conversation and just just, I think strengthening our inclusion muscle, and when we can do it with the population who have a history of segregation, who have who are more vulnerable to exclusion, I think it just is going to foster the entire society to think about inclusion beyond just disability, to Like we all go through this, we understand this, and let's make an intentional effort to foster that sense of belonging for everyone in school.

Kaya

36:50

Absolutely. I mean, Middle School is the height of it, right? We all

Savitha Sundar

36:54

remember, yeah, like, my kids went through bullying, and my kids went through, you know, times of exclusion, you know, although they don't have an identified disability, it just has been natural part of their their their growing up. And it's just that recognizing that is a lot more, I wouldn't say easier, but it's a lot more. It's less abstract when we talk about specific identities and their inclusion, because it's relatable for all segregation, yeah, right,

Amrita

37:28

being human, right? This is all part of the one thing I would just add outside of the social aspect. Again, Kai and I share this in our sessions, it's important to explore any implicit biases you may have as a teacher, as an individual, and that's hard to do, right? It's hard to kind of take a real close look at that mirror and reflect. And what we try to do in the beginning of our sessions is share some statements that we used to think before we went on this journey, and so some of our own biases or or prejudices that we may have had, and share that with with with participants. And I think it's important for teachers to do the same, and it's a hard thing to do, and it's a hard thing to ask, and yet something else to add on to their very big plate of to do's, but I think it's important for them to be a little self critical. What are your experiences around disability, or around, you know, the XYZ types of students, whatever that might mean, and, and how have you reacted? And, and kind of dissect that a little bit. I think that and

Kaya

38:44

where's your discomfort, you know, where's your discomfort now? And how could you make yourself more comfortable? You know, I think pushing through a little discomfort can really help with inclusion for everybody on you know, my son was not invited to a friend's birthday because they were doing cart racing. You know, what she's not able to do? And, you know, I think in a situation like that, you know, I had one friend who was also considering a birthday party with her son that was a ropes court, and she called me and said, This is what he wants to do. We don't want to not include your son, but, you know, and talk it through. And she leaned into that discomfort, and we had a conversation, and I was like, you know, I get it, and he and he knows too, maybe I'll let I'll let him choose. Does he want to come at the end for the for the cake, you know? But instead of just not inviting she led him to the discomfort and gave me a call, you know. So so it there's, we're all going to experience those moments as parents of educators, and so I think it's, as Amritha said, really important to evaluate, okay, where do I stand? Where are my biases, and where am I a little bit uncomfortable and and what can I do to maybe push that a little bit?

Savitha Sundar

39:54

Yeah, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. That's a very my daughter is vegan. In, and she has been so since she was 11, and hasn't changed. She's 17 now, but oftentimes she does not get invited to certain parties because they're afraid that she won't have anything to eat. But she on, if you if people asked her, she's like, I don't want to eat. I just want to be there, right? I just want to be part of the group. And I oftentimes she brings her own food and make sure don't feel bad about it. And it's not reasonable for you to make all these changes. For me, if you can, well and good, if not, don't feel bad about it. But it's the same thing. You know, it's the same thing with disability. I think people with disabilities also understand that they are different, and it may take more effort for the organizers to plan something for them, and that's totally understandable, and if you can go for it, but include them in that conversation,

Kaya

40:47

right? That's the key. Include them in the conversation. Include everyone in the conversation.

Amrita

40:52

Yeah, about agency, it's all right. Need to you know your daughter then has the choice, or Kaya son then has the choice of attending the party or attending or not, and and that. And so then, then it's on them, on whether they decide to go and not participate in the activities or not eat, but get to be there with their friends, and still, you know, laugh at the experience or share that experience. It's all about agency, and that agency isn't, you know, and is, it's certainly transferred into the classroom again, right? I mean, you can, you can bring into all those situations. And I think it's, we don't give students enough agency, absolutely. I think even we can start when they're when they're younger, we think mostly kind of middle school and so forth. But we can even start when they're younger, to give them certain, you know, Option A or Option B, and start helping them think along those lines.

Kaya

41:48

And also, there's a lot of adaption that can be done, you know, like, there are ways to adapt, you know, we've done go party with him, like, where we could adapt, like Pete. You need to presume competence. And so if you are concerned about some, speak up. Say, this is the planned activity. Is there a way we can adapt it so you can participate? Are you able to participate? Don't just assume that someone could not participate or wouldn't want to participate, right? So again, lean into that, that question and that maybe slight discomfort in the conversation, and ask, because people with disabilities are very creative and have lots of ways that they can adapt to to participate and want to be included. So have the conversation.

Savitha Sundar

42:30

Yeah, and enabling that process actually opens up a lot of creativity in people that they have not been aware of. I mean, like the same example of this vegan thing. I mean, people have started like, we've started cooking more vegan food, and we actually prefer that over what we have been used to in the past. And same with her friends, like they all love the desserts that she makes, the vegan desserts that she makes, and that's become like the norm now. And so it just makes the world richer when you embrace these differences and make it accessible for everybody, right? Yeah,

Amrita

43:05

right. How much, how many of us use speech to text on our phone, right? Yeah, yeah. While it may even been designed for the disability community, we all use it. It's, it's, yeah, well, for for all of us, for different reasons, yes. Yes. So we need to start, you know, shifting our mindsets around is like that.

Savitha Sundar

43:27

Yes, exactly, very, very true, very true. So any stories you have about how you, I know you shared about the teacher who went back and said, Now I have the resources to make my lessons more inclusive. So any other stories you have, like any powerful moment of inclusion done right? Yeah, experience.

Amrita

43:53

Inclusion is a force, right? It's a collective effort. When it's done right, it's not just one person, it's an entire community, ensuring that there's a sense of belonging for all. One One example that comes to mind is, you know, we typically send out pre session questionnaires before we come to a school just to ask folks about, hey, what's your experience around disability? What's your understanding around it? What Are there any particular things you'd want us to address in a workshop. And there was one particular school where many, many in the community, were sharing that their campus. It was an independent school. Their campus wasn't very accessible and therefore not very inclusive. This school was based in the DC area, and so we challenged the school to do something about the inaccessibility. We proposed that they have their students learn about the Americans with Disabilities Act now, I just want to preface that the ADA is archaic and needs to be updated, but you know again right now, so we suggested that the students learn learn about the ADA and. Then determine how accessible their school and campus is based upon a checklist that we could provide. Well, they took us up on that idea. They actually had someone who co wrote the ADA come to the campus and speak to the students. The students were then they started measuring the width of doorways, the height of chem lab tables, finding curb cuts and exploring ways how one with physical impairments may navigate their schools. All of a sudden this becomes right, an interdisciplinary, interdisciplinary exercise for the students. The students then presented their findings to the principal of the school who then recommended changes to the board and changes were actually implemented. I think this is such a powerful way to empower the students, to evoke change, to foster inclusivity. You know, I bet you, this is an experience that they'll always kind of remember, hey, that time when we learned about something and we suggested, and the grown ups, quote, unquote, the power that be listened to us and and may change. So it's one of my favorite, you know, takeaways of the work that we do in terms of, you know, you walk away. And there's different ways of measuring impact, but when you hear stories like this and students actually doing something, it really, it really hits home with us.

Kaya

46:33

Yeah, they were sixth graders, you know, I think, as Amritha said, that's something that will stick with them. The next time we went, they were so excited to show us look, you know, we were sixth graders, and we made this change and and it was just done really well. They learned about it, they explored themselves, and then made recommendations. So we, we love that example.

Savitha Sundar

46:54

Thank you for sharing that that is indeed powerful. That I just, I just, you know, we've talked about this before too. I think the students are powerhouses of change for the future. If we can empower them and open their eyes, they're going to Yeah, they're, they're Yeah, they they don't have a lot of unlearning to do that our generation had. Right?

Kaya

47:15

Exactly, yeah, the earlier you started, the last you have to undo.

Savitha Sundar

47:19

Yes. Totally. Yes, yeah, yeah. So, how do you So, when you go into a school and you do your work, how do you, you know, how do you measure the impact that you've created? Like, is there, like, a way that you go about with it? I know it's hard to have tools to measure the kind of qualitative information that we may get out of our programming and our intervention. So tell tell me more about how you measure your success.

Kaya

47:56

Well, I think in terms of accessibility, you can look at examples like the one we just had, and other things that we do in schools where there's changes made, you know, their website is not accessible, and then they make changes, and now it is so. So there, you know, we can measure kind of those concrete changes, which is great, you know, we have a lot of checklists and things like that where, like you mentioned, curricula audit. You could also we do kind of accessibility work around that. And so those are the concrete changes. But we also have some great kind of in terms of the work with the kids, and more examples around, like one we just shared, I know Martha. We have a great one with the younger students from

Amrita

48:39

our pilot. There was in our pilot program, there was an elementary school teacher that we worked very closely with, and she was just impressive in herself. She had decades of experience of of teaching, and she even shared that our work provided her with new insights about this topic, and so coming from someone that's been around for a while. That was, that was, I think, telling she had asked a question of her kindergarten class, something to the effect of, how do you see the light in the darkness of winter? How do you see the light in the darkness of winter? And after they had gone through some of our programming. One student shared, well, you can still feel the sun even if you're blind. You still know it's sunny even if you're blind. This comes from a five year old. Wow, they can't I mean, it? It again. This words warmed our hearts. It's this type of thinking, we hope adults can embrace most adults wouldn't be able to think like this. We don't think you know that there's more than one way to achieve similar objectives. Too often people associate can't with disability, right? And that's just simply not case. Um. I can give you one more example. You know, when we started this, our focus really moved to educating teachers and administrations on on this, on this topic. We never imagined that we'd be asked to facilitate workshops for students, but one of our first workshops for students was with middle school students, and by the end of this workshop, I again, I was shocked again, middle school students, students were openly sharing some of their diagnoses. Like, Hey, I've been diagnosed with ADHD. Wait, hey, me too. And we're like, whoa, they're okay sharing this. This is awesome. You know, we want there to be pride associated with your disability identity. And it was, it was being reflected. At the end of this particular workshop, we had the students fill out an index card I used to think blank about disability. Now I know why about disability again, some of the responses we were just floored. I think one of the examples was a response rather was I used to think that people with disabilities were limited by their disabilities. Now I know society limits them by not accommodating them.

Savitha Sundar

51:22

Wow, wow, wow. Yes,

Amrita

51:27

you know, yeah, I used to think that people disabilities couldn't be as successful. I now know that they can be even more successful than people without disabilities. It's about changing the mindset, the changing the perception, you know, we we were touched that these students took this away from that session. We can only hope that we can make similar impacts with the educators as well. So it trickles down.

Savitha Sundar

51:58

Yeah, yeah, thank you. I think, yeah. I think oftentimes we when we are not able to same, same in education, right? If you don't measure progress, that you think there's no progress, but it happens, right? Not everything is quantifiable, and I think so. Another question I had was like, your programming, is it, do you do a sequence of sessions? Or is it usually one session? Or is it a year round, you know, activities? And

Kaya

52:34

it really depends on the school development. Yeah, they kind of engage with us in different ways. We we are kind of we make sure we do our foundational professional development first. We kind of are adamant about just that core grounding of disability studies with the social model and language first, and then it kind of ebbs and flows based on their needs. Some of the schools focus more on their curriculum. Others want you know, as you said, the workshops with the students. We've done workshops with families, so it really just depends, but we always start with that core professional development

Amrita

53:14

program. But then we have different like, you know, we have a session on executive functioning. We have a session on the intersectionality of historically marginalized identities. So what if you identify with a disability and you are of, you know, black or brown, or what that means? So those intersections, so we, we have call it a menu of different workshops. It really kind of depends on on the school. Kai and I are also in the middle of working on building out more of an audit for schools as well. So to you know, yes, there's ways we can share right away in terms of how you can ensure that you're you're that you are building a culture of accessibility and inclusivity, whether it's your website or or your hiring practices, but so we're basically in the process of of creating an audit on more specifics, so that the schools do have certain checklists that they can go through In terms of where am I, in terms of how accessible we are as a school, and in terms of our culture as well.

Savitha Sundar

54:28

Okay, that's that's great, and it sounds like more of an a la carte menu where they can choose what works for their their school and their probably their funding and their needs, right? So, yeah,

Kaya

54:39

well, and we've also helped some of the independent schools with their because they don't follow this IEP process necessarily. They and there's a real, really large increase in the number of students receiving educational supports in independent schools. We've helped them kind of tweak those processes and look at those processes as. Well,

Savitha Sundar

55:01

so you've done your work only in independent school districts so far, independent schools so far. Have you? Have you ever

Amrita

55:09

worked with some public educators? But that was more on a on a one off basis, because, you know, obviously, if you're talking about curricular design and things like that, that becomes a little bit, it's it's just a different path that one would take with the public schools, opposed to an, you know, a one off independent school, you know, so, but we've, it's funny, we've, we actually are. One of our very first sessions was with public educators, and some of them kind of came afterwards, reached out to us and said, Hey, can we get some more information. Or, you know, how can we, you know, get more involved? Or have you guys got get more involved? So we're, we're trying to figure out how to work with the public school systems. Again, it's just a different path. So it's, it's another path that we just need to learn more about.

Savitha Sundar

55:59

Yeah, I definitely think public schools have as much of a need for what you're doing as private schools do. But yeah, I think the navigating the system is definitely more complex and challenging in public schools.

Kaya

56:14

I think everyone, everyone has work to do in this area.

Savitha Sundar

56:18

Absolutely. Yes. Yes, yes. Well, thank you so much. Amrita and Kaya. This was such an enriching conversation. Always, I am just so glad our paths crossed, and we're all sort of made of the same fabric, right? So I'm so glad about that. And any final takeaways for our listeners?

Amrita

56:40

Yeah, I would, I would just kind of leave one, one takeaway, if I may, is for your listeners to be curious. Be curious, ask questions. It's so important, you know, as as adults, you know, we encourage kids to ask questions, and it's if we want to combat the the inequalities that we see within learning environments as as with anything asking questions respectfully, helps move the needle towards impact, so just be curious.

Kaya

57:10

Yeah, and I would say similarly, go and explore. There are so many incredible resources nowadays. You know, books like Emily ladaus demystifying disabilities, fantastic and a really easy read. Websites, Ted Talks, podcasts, even if you only have three minutes, there's something you can learn if you want to take on more, but engage with those resources and maybe grab at least one or two concepts that you can take back if you're an educator to your classroom.

Savitha Sundar

57:42

So very true, very true. And to me not to be afraid of being wrong and be willing to learn from those mistakes.

Speaker 1

57:54

Thank you. Thank you so much. You you.

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