Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact Uprising.
So welcome to the good community, we're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started.
Becky, it's happening!
Today is here after like after 500 episodes, we literally have the OG of nonprofit podcasts in our house today. It's pretty much like having the Beyonce into your house today. Joan Garry is on the We Are For Good Podcast. We know that so many of you know Joan Gary. And I don't know why I always say both of her first and last names together, but it feels like it goes together.
It's a thing.
It's a Charlie Brown thing actually it happens a lot really.
Totally. We would not understand what you meant if you said Charlie, so
Correct.
I just think you have an amazing brand. You have an amazing movement. You probably know Joan from any of her best selling books. She's just an internationally recognized nonprofit leadership expert. She's the founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. She's got Joan Garry Consulting. And of course, you probably know her podcast, which we want to talk a little bit about today, which are Nonprofits Are Messy. And so we have a hard time Joan going through someone like your bio, because there are so many incredible nuggets, I'm going to try to hit the highlights. But we want you to go a little bit deeper, because we think your journey is just so interesting. But Joan literally began her career in 1981 as a part of the management team, you know, for a little known something you might know called MTV.
Music Television.
I know Jon like can we talk about you were not even allowed to watch this.
I know. It's like unplugged from my cable somehow.
Yeah. When they were when they actually showed music videos may I add?
But that was such an incredible start. After that she made a move to the nonprofit sector. She was named the executive director of GLAAD. We love GLAAD, one of the largest LGBTQ rights organizations in the US. And after eight years there. Sorry, I gotta back something up because I saw something and I want to lift it when you got there. There was $360 in the bank, how many executive directors out there know that feeling of going into an organization?
The hands are so up in the air, aren't they?
Yes, they virtually are I feel them. So a bit after that run. She took this expertise and she became this incredible successful political fundraiser co-chairing the LGBTQ Finance Committee for the Obama 2008 presidential campaign. And all of this converged she's pouring into Joan Garry Consulting, her blog for board and staff leaders reaches 150,000 unique leaders monthly from over 150 countries, which for anyone who's trying to get reach and exposure that is just a crazy number. And then we've also talked about this incredible podcast, Nonprofits Are Messy, which has had over 2 million listeners from 207 countries. So that is incredible. And the last thing I want to say because you know we're always going to end with the personal is that Joan lives in New Jersey with her wife of nearly 40 years. Hi, Eileen. And Joan and Eileen, were plaintiffs in the 1993 landmark New Jersey court case granting a lesbian couple a second parent adoption. Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine the generations that you have helped build families from this and so their three grown children are legally have two mothers, whether they like it or not, which is the end of your bio, and I think it's perfect Joan, welcome to the We Are For Good podcast. We're so excitedn you're here.
Thank you. You know, it's funny listening to your listening to your bio actually takes you on on a little bit of a sort of a stroll down memory lane and how, how, how what seemed to be and I think this is true for lots of people in their professional paths, that they don't actually know where they're going. But when you look back, there's there's these things that weave together and I always think about your professional trajectory is like this roller board of stuff you drag with you and when I listened to you describe it, I like oh those things actually go together in some really interesting ways. So I was
Fabulois career
Thank you for sharing the bio and for allowing me to reflect on the on the path.
Well, that's wonderful and we were just you know, we're stewards sitting in the wake of what you've been building all of these decades and I think you know, it would be so helpful for our community. To like just get to know Joan, the Joan behind the bio like, talk to us about you growing up what was little Joan like how did you get into this work? Tell us about that fiery Irish woman.
Well, let me tell you about that fecking fiery Irish woman shall I? Okay. So Joan is a little kid I grew up. There's nothing you didn't say in your bio, Becky. I grew up in Amityville, like of the Amityville Horror on Long Island.
I've seen it.
Yes. So that's always a good conversation starter. I was the youngest and only girl of four. I have three older brothers. As I like to say I am not exactly the girl my mother ordered. She wanted one so badly, but in some ways, I think I was actually my father's favorite son. Complex, but there it is, um, I am catholic school educated, never in a classroom without a crucifix on the wall. I am a proud alum of Fordham University in the Bronx. Jesuits are not quite like priests. They're kind of a bridge between priests and rabbis. which probably explains why at the age of 60, I converted to Judaism because I figured I was out about everything else in my life. So here I am, I have both Catholic and Jewish guilt, and they are often in conflict with one another. I feel like I am the luckiest human on the planet. I never thought I would be live happily ever after. I never thought I would have kids. So I had no intention of building what my team calls Joan Landia. I did. And I know we're going to talk about innovation and some of some of my own that path you described of just like being an accidental consultant. And now, all of those things you described is a lot about innovation and a lot about creativity and seeing gaps and giving things a shot. And I could talk a little bit about even the derivation of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab and how we came to start that and that it was actually one of those things that Michael Hyatt says what challenging times make possible right. But I was always a big mouth, I always have a lot to say. I'm a singer I am. Here's another thing not in bio you all, I was the first female singing member of the New York City, Gay Men's Chorus. 250 gay men and me on the stage at Carnegie Hall. I want to I
That's amazing.
After I left glad I decided I wanted to learn how to blend and stick out all at the same time.
Amazing.
And it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. So everything I do is fills me with great joy. And I think I've always been that kind of person. And I'm a serious Yankee baseball fan. I have a very
Julie will love that.
framed on my wall here. My office, a number of my best 1960s baseball cards. Yeah, so I'm, that's another thing I really like I am 66 years old. And so of course I play pickleball. And is that enough for now?
Oh, that's what a breadth.
I know. And just like the human that you are, thank you for taking us a little bit into your journey, because we're obsessed with the journey around here. And I think seeing a like minded friend, there's all of us are connected to you in some way in this. And that's what we want this conversation to be about is that you do this through your work, you make us feel seen at all parts of the nonprofit journey. We have friends listening today that are in a shop of one person, yes, hustle it out and tried to make it work. And we have people that are fighting the politics of bureaucracy of being the massive team listening to this podcast.
Totally.
And I think they're both want the same things in the world in a lot of ways. And you get to be in this perch of getting to have all these conversations having these life experiences. You think about innovation, you see the gaps that are there, set some tone for us. I mean, what do you think about when you think about innovation in the nonprofit space? You know, how can we inject more of it to it and what are you paying attention to?
So the one thing I do want to say is thinking about your listeners. So on the consulting side of things, my primary jam is executive coaching of CEOs of larger nonprofits. So I play in that sandbox. The Nonprofit Leadership Lab is a space for board and staff leaders of small to mid sized nonprofits. Right. So I have sort of, I'd have touchpoints with staff and board leaders of every size and shape, nonprofit at every leg of their journey. And I think it's really important to say this before we jump into innovation, that there is no direct correlation between the size of your budget and the impact you are able to have in the world. I have I know some really screwed up organizations with big fat budgets. And I know badass organizations with little tiny budgets. So for those of you who have little tiny budgets, just know, the object of the game is not whoever has the most toys when that's not what it's about. So I don't think the nonprofit sector is very good at innovation. Actually, I think it's, it's one of its big pieces of kryptonite, I think of nonprofit leaders as superheroes. And I think they have a lot of superpowers. And I think innovation is is a big piece of kryptonite. And I also think that the sooner we acknowledge that and sort of start to really dig into why that is, and shift the mindset of nonprofit leaders, board and staff, I think we can we can 10x or 100x, the kind of impact that nonprofits have. But again, to say what challenging times make possible, I saw the greatest, the finest illustration of innovation and creativity during the pandemic. I saw staff leaders, coaching clients of mine, who were more fired up during the pandemic, even though it was hard as hell, because they were stretching new muscles, they were being creative things that they never thought they could do in a short period of time, they did. So we know it can be done. And the for me, the pandemic illustrated that business as usual, was nothing to write home about.
Yeah. Wow.
Thank you. Yes. I mean, that's one of the trends we're going to highlight is that business, as usual, is just over, you know,
It's done.
like no usual anymore. Yeah. So powerful.
I agree with you heartily. And it feels like without invit innovation, without, again, leaning into this moment, instead of leaning, leaning away from it. Those who are going to lean in are going to find sustainability. They're going to find new channels of revenue, they're going to find new ways of connection and building community. And I would just love to get your thoughts on what you believe are some of the hallmarks of an innovative modern day nonprofit. And what can people do to start to lean into that, Joan?
So one other quick thing, I believe that the, if we look at the sort of secret sauce behind all the innovation during the pandemic, and I gave a keynote speech to the folks at the YMCA in Atlanta this summer, and I got them talking about why they weren't like that before. Why they weren't taking risks? And why why why was it different? And that there, and what I heard over and over again, is that their need to deliver for their communities or their causes was greater than their fear. I heard a lot about fear. Right? I heard a lot about fear, fear of not having sufficient fear of fear that stems from the scarcity mindset that the nonprofit sector is riddled with. And so you asked me, what are the hallmarks of what do we what are we shooting for, right? What does success look like? If I see and if I see these things, I know that this organization has some real opportunity to innovate in in really interesting ways. And I would say, it kind of starts at the sort of this very top and you all have, some of you have read some of my stuff and know that I don't think of nonprofits as hierarchical. I think of them more like twin engine jets with a board engine, and a staff engine and the board chair and executive director in the cockpit. Right? It's a very different models not hierarchical. I also think about partnerships as being a central, philosophical, unique secret sauce in nonprofits. And if you think about it that way, I need in an innovative organization. I want to see a board that has moved from a mindset of risk management, to one of thought partnership boards stay on the tarmac to use my jet metaphor. And keep them we keep them in the weeds and they stay there. It is not the best use of them. And it in fact is actually counterproductive to innovation. I am looking for a staff leader who has an eye I got this from a interview I did with the Chief People Officer of charity:water. They look for humble confidence in their leaders. I love that humble confidence, who understands the importance of a culture of learning and growth, who is not a not afraid to say, the culture I want in this organization is one in which we provide you with the tools and the skills to have difficult conversations, so that we can agree, disagree and take diverse points of view and lived experience and make the whole greater than the sum of its parts, and I'll staff leader that recognizes that investing in professional development is not a luxury item. And then I guess I would also say, an organization that invests in building a culture of storytelling. Amazingly enough, staff and boards of nonprofit organizations are not very good storytellers. I sat next to somebody at dinner one night, some fundraiser, and said you so what do you do? And this woman ran a nonprofit. And so tell me about it. 20 minutes later, the woman was still talking to me. Finally, I stopped and I said, you may regret the day they placed us next to each other at this dinner. But would you be able to do that again? Pretend I'm 15 years old, and you only have 10 minutes?
Very smart.
Right? And it was so much better. It was so much better. Now, you'd think that that woman would walk away? And I never heard from her again. But no, of course she hired me as a client. And but it was, you know, it is we want to say everything and everything is not the correct answer. And so really building and exercising the storytelling muscle throughout your organization, so that you have a grand posse of storytellers, who are ambassadors, who can who can get out there and invite more people to notice and do something with want to come closer and closer and closer. That's what you all should be in the business of doing. Jon are you smirking?
I am so happy right now because you're preaching our values back to us. I'm smiling, like a little kid over here. Because we're a growth mindset community. That's what we want to start in this space and cultivate not start, just gather people like that. Because we all don't know these things intrinsically. But together it with the posture of this humble confidence, we can come together and be better storytellers and be better partners and with our board, and figure this stuff out together in real time, like, you're just talking about the things that I love in this world so much. And I wonder, I want to go back to your case study. I mean, GLAD has been this chapter of your career. We look at this. I just think we all went through the pandemic. And that's right when Becky and I were making the jump to we're for good. It was that summer. So we had that moment of sitting in the nonprofit to be like, what do we actually do right now, you know, that sinking feeling of confidence to confusion. So I just think you were having a similar experience walking in to this place that is literally out of money that has a such important mission, such an inflection point in history to like, step into, what did you do? I mean, how did you cultivate that growth mindset and pull people together to, you know, lead it to the impacts and prominence that it has today.
So I had no idea there was only $360 in the bank. I didn't ask for financials, because I know myself. And if I knew it was really in bad shape. I would want the job more.
Really? Fascinating.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, come on my podcast is called nonprofits are messy. I do, like a client will come forth. And my team will say, Oh, this one is really messy. And I'm like, Really, let's see. I actually began by making it clear to the board that I had no intention of laying anyone off. And that I, this, this mess happened on their watch, and that they were going to be partners with me in digging out. Now, remember that I had been hired with no fundraising experience. My development director at the time, was horrified because the other candidate had a lot of fundraising experience. But I had media background, I was a very good public speaker. I was very clear and articulate about why focusing on the media mattered so much. And so I got in front of people at every opportunity. And I was I was bold in asking for money. So did I ask for money to dig the car out of the ditch? Uh-uh, no. What I did was I painted a picture of where I where we wanted, glad to go.
Oh, here it is. Keep going. Keep going.
Okay, so I said, Okay, I have come to an organization that has been for, you know, X number of years has been a media watchdog, a finger wagging organization. No, that's defamatory. No, that's offensive. And I believed that if we actually built our credibility as an organization, and put the right people on the bus, we could start having proactive conversations with producers and journalists to actually help them get it right so that we could give them props for getting it right. We then we had a Media Award ceremony, which was the most mission centric Gala. So that we could then honor people who got it right. And we could I made the argument, we could do both, we could wag our fingers, and celebrate, and that we could actually get on the inside and make a difference. And people were all over that. Right? Why do I have to wag my finger when the damage has already been done to the hearts and minds of people who are not with us?
Yeah.
And so I sold that. But I'm going to tell you, I knew nothing really about the programs of GLAAD for that first year I sold that I then also we are we were particularly known for entertainment media. And at that time, we had a kind of a celebrity doing that work. And so I used that to get in. The other thing that I did is I was wildly transparent with my team, about the condition of the finances. And I used to have weekly meetings where I referred to the organization as if it was a patient in a hospital. And I would say we're still in the ICU, but we're breathing on our own. Right. And so, I kind of kind of created a culture of we're all in this together. And and then I'm a huge fan of I'm huge fan of quick wins. And, and I and I'm an I can actually look around corners. So that's good that people call that anticipating. And I arrived just after Ellen came out on national television, which had was not on my watch. And I arrived just before the murder of Matthew Shepard. And I believed that we had a role to play in shaping how the story came out of Laramie, Wyoming by putting people on the ground, by training college students to say the right things to the media. And the story got shaped out of Laramie in a way that was very different. And I think way more was fair, accurate and compelling to national audiences. And I'm also a big fan of, okay, is there a thing we can grab on to you that we can build on we don't have money. I remember talking to Malcolm Gladwell. I called him
I love that phone a friend. What a good phone a friend.
Yeah, totally an amazing phone a friend.
This is my wife, this is all about my wife, I make no mistake. I said, I really want to know what Malcolm Gladwell thinks the tipping point would be for attitudes and opinions about LGBT people. He's the expert, she said why don't you call them, why don't you call him, I'm like, do you think he takes that call? She said, Oh, I totally think he'd take your call. And he didn't take that call. And he said, You know what, you're never gonna have enough money for the Nike swoosh, you've got to actually step on a platform that's been created for you, or build a platform. And we took on, we took on talk show host, Laura Schlessinger, we used that to build a list to mobilize people. My favorite story, and this is, to me, I don't think of this as innovation, I think of it as seizing opportunities. And maybe that's the same thing. Right? My, my, my director of communications came, got married in LA. And I said, so did you, you know, this was way back. When did you, did you submit it to the LA Times wedding section? And we laughed, right, because that just didn't happen? And I said, Why didn't you? Why don't you? And then I went to a cocktail party where I met the publisher of the New York Times. And I said, can we talk about same sex wedding announcements in the New York Times and the man said to me, I know that I am standing on an ever shrinking island of tradition. And I said, Well, you know that actually, my job is to either shrink the island or nudge you gently off of it. And several years later, we got the New York Times to include same sex couples on its wedding announcements. We are also responsible for the first gay Castaway on Survivor and I'm a complete Survivor addict.
What season was that?
That was season one, and he actually won!
What?
Yes! Richard.
Richard!
I picked it up in season two.
I remember. Totally!
Then he went to jail. I have no responsibility for that. But I think you know, this is you have to have your your eyes open. You can't have your head down. I use this for phrase raising your gaze, right is you got to look down the road. And I, by the way, there are a lot of people out there that have cars that are stuck in ditches. I know this. And the moral of my story is it's okay to say you're in a ditch. But you have to actually tell them, I really want to go to Yosemite. Right, Jon, I really want to go to Yosemite. Right? Do you want to come with me? And if so, could you help us bridge from where we are now. So that the car is in order, so we can go on the ride. And I tell you what, that strategy secures more multi year gifts, unrestricted than you can possibly imagine. It's a it's a golden tactic, because it's smart. And it's right. People want to know where you're going.
Joan Garry, I like you so much. Will you come over and be one of my dear friends, because you are talking at a level that I don't think we talk at enough in this sector? Well, first of all, there is no scarcity in what you're saying at all. No, there is abundant thinking you had $360 in the bank, but you were an incredible storyteller that forecasted the future that you wanted to co build with your believers, I want to say that I value all of this. And if you are listening out there, and you feel like your car is in the ditch, you feel like your nonprofit is on life support, you feel like you only have $360 in the bank. And you're wondering where it's coming from. I believe that Joan just gave you a very impressive, succinct and I would say time honored strategy there, of how do we start to cast the vision and ask our believers to come along and believe that they can be a part of the change that we want to build. And I believe that that is such a brilliant starting point, if you're looking for the next phase to get yourself not only out of the ditch, but y'all to build something that scales and succeeds and changes the world. And I want to pivot a little bit into next year, because I think, you know, the clocks, the clock turns over from New Year's Eve to New Years. And I think that there's a sort of wind out of their sails that happens to the sector, everybody's exhausted from year end, everybody's exhausted. And it's like the KPIs start back at zero. And I want people because I believe I see it, and I believe it, to have hope that this could be a year that things could really change for the better and that you have the power to seize that. So talk to us a little bit about strategic planning for the new year, give us some of your your practical tips, maybe some steps that nonprofit leaders can take to integrate innovation into their planning for the new year and really come out and cast that vision that you're talking about in a way that makes people want to be a magnet to it.
Okay, so let's start with the word strategic planning, right.
One of my most hated words of all time confession.
So I, I have done a couple of podcasts on a process that that I engage in called strategic visioning, which is basically do we have, do we have alignment around whether we're going to Yosemite or Disneyland? Right?
Two different experiences.
Yeah. Right. Very different experiences. And I think we spent I think strategic plans are generally work plans filled with OKRs. That's and no wonder and they suck every bit of generative creative juice out of a process that should be fueling, it should fill everyone's tank.
And I love that you just said generative creative because it's such a buzzword in AI. Let's not let AI be the generative. This is in the minds and hearts of the people in our, in our organizations right now.
I think about this. And I do think a lot of it starts with your board and how you engage with your board. Right? So we all know, there's three levels of governance, fiduciary, strategic and generative. Most boards are lucky to get to strategic. But if they get to generative conversations, where those are what I call the what if conversations where you kind of just sustained you, you forget what you know about the organization and talk only about what you imagine to be possible, sort of what I would consider the, you know, if a game changing gift landed on your doorstep, what would you do with it and why? Right, then we don't have those conversations, except maybe a board retreats, and then they just fall off the radar. So we don't we don't exercise that muscle with people. So first, the first thing I do with strategic planning is I wouldn't call it strategic planning. I would ask big, bold, hairy questions to my board and let them actually ideate about those. There's another word that's a little jargony. Sorry about that. I would educate my board, I would actually do a case study and say, the before times, the pandemic times I've been wanting boards. I've been wanting staff, nonprofits to do this for a long time, because the board members didn't really understand what happened. Not not all of them, but because we were bit too busy doing the thing to tell them about the thing. Right, I had a client who ran the Jewish Federation of Minneapolis, George Floyd was killed blocks from his, from his office, right? He became a community leader, a collaborator, right? It was awesome what Jim did. And then I said, your board must be so proud. And I'm like, he's like, I wish I had time to tell them like. So I made him pick up his cell phone. And I said, okay just start talking to your cell phone, but I put it on, put it, make a video, and just go for three to five minutes. And then I want you to send it to every one of your board members. And actually, we called it did you knows? And he and they loved them because they were in the loop. Right? Did you know? Did you know that today, and it isn't like today, we scored a $20,000 gift. It was today we were at a table in Minneapolis with leaders of faith and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? So, Board education, marketing innovation to board members, so they understand its value, because it don't think they totally get it because we don't do a very good job of educating them. So strategic visioning, not strategic planning, marketing innovation to the board. The third thing is something that may seem, may seem a little odd, but it's about budgeting.
Okay.
By the time a budget gets to a board, it is should be relatively balanced. And that means things you really, really wanted to do got cut. Right, because the bat, the difference between the revenue and expense was too wide, was too different. Right? So they never see those exciting things you were going to do, because you didn't have the money.
Okay, this is this is so huge, Joan. Yeah, keep going.
Okay, so they see the budget, and they're like, okay, that revenue covers that expense. And then they focus on what variance percentage they have in each each area. And they do they're in a financial steward due diligence, fiduciary role, I want a board presentation that says, here's where we're going to be on New Year's Eve, as a result of this money that we invest, as a result of this money we raise, here is a list of the initiatives we wanted to include, but did not have the funding for right, watch them go, oh, we really need to do that thing. What really?
I really want to go to Yosemite is, you know, like this is it.
We're never gonna get to Yosemite if we don't do this, right. So all of a sudden, there's a list of these really good goodies. And so I as the board chair, I'm like, Okay, what needs to be different? Could we look at where we're at each quarter? And if we're running ahead, and now gives the board some incentive to invite more people to the party, right? Could we add some of these in? And if we can't add them in all together? Could we pilot and piloting to me is the that is the key that unlocks the door, because you set up a pilot for something that you want that you believe will have greater impact. Right? You set out what success metrics look like at the front end. You illustrate proof of concept. You present that to your board, you then have proof of concept for your board and for funding. We tried this in a small scale liquid it did. Yeah. Right. And it and what I also think it does is it actually addresses some of the risk management boards do that they come to with a little bit of a DNA and that sort of, I'm, I join a board to make sure nothing goes wrong. Right. But but they like trying new things they do. They just don't like investing in big things that feel overwhelming. The pilot is the way to go. And so I want people as they're setting goals for the year. I always think that budgets are a budgets are the tool by which you achieve your goals. I've never understood anybody who could approve the budget and then put together organizational goals for the year. That's ass backward in my book. I remember I came from the private sector, and I did a lot of finance and budgeting. And the, you know, I was actually one of my gigs was which you missed Becky, I worked for Showtime for eight years, and I managed to joint venture between Showtime and Don King.
Oh, my gosh, what did that even look? Okay. Oh, depending on that, we're talking about that next time you come back that story.
But I became known as the person who could figure out what story the numbers were telling. And they actually deployed me into the finance department to train the finance analysts all through Showtime, on how to write a kick ass cover memo for monthly financials that actually made the business unit, the VPs around the business units actually understand the story the numbers are telling. So anyway, these are the things that I think about, when I think about as you go into 2023, set your what I call your New Year's Eve bucket list, not a list of two dues, but the 5-10 headlines you want to you want to raise a glass of toast and say I had a kickass year, we did these seven things, and they were awesome. And I want I want you to think about budgeting in terms of making sure the board understands what you are not able to do not in a whiny way. Right? But in a motivating way. And I want you to start to think about introducing the idea of pilots and harken back to the pandemic, because it was one big as my as many people would say one big fecking pilot.
Okay, we got to talk about semantics on this. Because pilot is innovation. Pilot is equitable. Pilot is bringing things in that have not been considered before. I think this is such a brilliant tactic. And the only thing I want to tell you to add to it is ask your board members how they can help. Yes, they need a role in enacting this innovation. Yes, we're going to work as a team to enact and to test me there's like marketing is mission right here. Like, we're going to figure out what works and what response but we're going to need the collective to come with us. And it can't just be staff lead, it can't just be our ideas, it's got to be a part of the collective. That was very wise Joan.
I love that I take the friendly amendment and say that that's what board members want, that we don't often give them is a definition of what success looks like. They want to be successful people, they are drawn to board service to be successful. You do a working group around the pilot that staff and board driven. And the idea is to create the success metrics, right to monitor it, to then have that working group, including the board members do a show and tell it a board meeting about what we're learning from that pilot. They get there, they get the spotlight, right, they get to do show and tell in front of other board members, they feel like they're doing something really interesting, innovative, and finite, it has a beginning, middle and an end. And when they leave the board, one of the things they can say is I was really part of transforming the culture of this organization into one of innovation. And let me give you an example. That pilot we did a pilot of a blah, blah, blah. In 2023. I was part of a staff board working group. And it was so it was it was actually a lot of work. But it was that kind of work that puts gas into your tank, not the kind that takes gas out of your tank.
I mean, to quote Joan, and to Joan, you said earlier how do we move from risk management to thought partnership that is a superpower waiting to be unleashed in every single one of our boardrooms, in every organization. So this conversation has got me fired up my friend like thank you for this. But you know, our one of our core tenants is we love just the power of simple philanthropy in our daily lives. And we create space for stories and I just can't imagine the stories that have moved your heart. But I wonder if you'd take us back to one in your journey. Like when's the moment that a philanthropy that's really stuck with you?
It's really
I love that she's giggled.
I know.
So I could choose a lot of them. But there's this one story. And I believe it's a story about treating your board, treating your stakeholders, as human beings as partners and being in relationship with them. Because you're asked about philanthropy, particularly so this is what prompted me to So I hope this isn't going to be too long a story, but it's good. So it might be worth it. Okay. GLAAD Media Awards are these rather big spectacles, celebrities, etc, doing one in San Francisco. And because we take up the most of the hotel, the hotel gave me a very nice suite. Okay, I didn't need a suite. But I had a suite. And I had a bunch of I am a couple of my board members and senior staff over for wine and cheese. Our biggest donor at that time, was a gentleman whose house was so big, it was his own zip code. And he was a little bit unpredictable. And I pick up the phone and suite and, and it is that donor who says, I've decided to come to the to the Media Awards tonight. I'm a little I just so you know, there's really not a suite available for me, he had a private plane, etcetera. There's not a suite available for me. And I said, Oh, I'm so sorry. Let me let me see what I can do. Let me call down to the front desk and see what's going on. And I hung up the phone, and that was the only suite and that was the suite he would want. And I said we're about 20 minutes from the airport. We have about 12 minutes to put this suite back together so it looks like no one has ever been in it.
Take the lamp off your head, like put everything back
I had like these very demure board members throwing knives with brie into their backpack. Like, I had one board member who was folding the toilet paper into the triangles, like it was it was comedic. So
Who is good with a fitted sheet?
Yeah! In 12 minutes, in 12 minute and I don't think I had actually slept in the bed. I had been there for the day, right? So I've been 12 minutes out, I've got my roller board, we come out of the elevator. And we see him coming down the hall. Right, because we then tell the front desk, the suite should go to him. So they put me in a different room. And I get in my jammies because it can be a long day, the next day, the phone rings. It's him. He said, You gave up your suite. You took you left your suite. I said how did you know? And he said because I asked for your room number when I called the hotel, and it happened to be the room number of the suite. And I said, Yeah, well, you weren't really, you really weren't supposed to know that. I hope you enjoy it and I'll see you tomorrow. And he says, Can you meet me at the cocktail at the hotel bar in 15 minutes. So I woke up another one of my colleagues and I said I don't know what's going to be happening in 15 minutes. But can you come down to the bar with me? He said, no one has treated me as a real human being without trying to get credit for it for some means to an end for a larger gift, or treated me in some transactional way. You actually vacated that suite, I bet you did it in 10 minutes. And you didn't want me to know. And the man said, I'm going to give you $3 million.
Oh my gosh.
And he said because not because I you know I love GLAAD I love what you do. But a kind of leadership board and staff that actually that embraces a culture that says we see our stakeholders as humans as as people who who are partners with us in our work. I want to I want a bigger investment in that. It's a good story, right, especially the toilet paper and knives with the brie on it.
I'm like, picturing you, as he says that like reaching into your, you know, bag to grab a hankie and there's melted brie in there, like there's so much going on in my head right now.
Yeah.
but the humanity that is centered in that story. I know people think this is sometimes perceived as toxic optimism, but just letting somebody be themselves, showing kindness, letting them feel their humanity and responding to that. It is the great balm, I think on the soul. And I just think that whether he had given you $3 million, or whether he had given you a hug like I think that that conversation exchange probably profoundly changed you I would guess.
It did. It actually made me take the suite at every hotel I stayed at.
Just waiting for that call.
Just in case. No, no. By the way, that I bet there are people who are listening to that, who say, you did you jump through hoops for your biggest donor. And that's is that, like, they might hear that story differently. And there's a there's potentially some truth in their truth, right. But that's how I see that story. And ever and everybody that had anything to do with that the next day, they were absolutely glowing. Like that, she kept the knives with brie on it, I have the brie prove it. Think it's just like, be kind. Be kind. Right? When you when you have a house, it's because zipcode people don't treat you like a human, they treat you like, like an ATM. Yeah. And that's true of board members who give generously or who raised their hand and you don't actually engage them. Right? Everybody a volunteer a staff member, they they came because they care. Because they want to be enriched. They want to be informed about the issue. They want to be seen as understanding more deeply the systemic problems that underlie the issues that you work on every day. They're in love with your organization when they come and if they aren't, you shouldn't invite them to come. Yeah. And then your job is to make sure that they are continually given the opportunity to love it up all the more.
I love every bit of that I love all of you and what you're about, which makes it very sad for me to pitch the last question to you here, which is we wrap up all of our conversations with a one good thing.
Yeah, good.
Piece of advice, a life hack, something that somebody could leave with that just gets them activated today, what would be your one? Good thing, Joan,
I think it kind of connects to a lot of the things that I've said today, I want you to start to think like a partner, that you as a person who runs an organization, the power doesn't come from you. The power comes from all around you. It comes from your donors, your volunteers, the people who you mobilize to take action to lobby, the folks who show up for your concert, right? The power comes from around you. And that's a privileged position. And being an orchestra of that power, by actually really thinking of them as partners with you in this work will create a lasting relationship will make every one of those people feel heard. And they will have good ideas. And if you don't treat them, like partners, you do that at your own peril. Because people equals power, the more people you invite to your party, the more power you have. And those people will stay at your party a good long while if they feel like their voice matters, and that you actually work in partnership with them.
Gosh, I love that thread. And it's been true of all of your experiences and even how you, you know tone set and talked about the small nonprofits coming together in your work. So I want to round out and just give you the chance to say how can people connect with you the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, obviously click over and subscribe to Joan's podcast. Nonprofits Are Messy if you're not already. But you know, how can people reach out to you connect with your team?
So Joangarry.com is sort of all things Joan landia. You can link up to the blog and the podcasts and learn more about my coaching services, the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, it's called nonprofitleadershiplab.com, where you can learn about the professional modest professional development resources, both content and community, that small leaders have small board and staff and we have an increasing number of board members as part of our we have currently about 5200 Members, we have supported about 20,000 since 2017.
Thank you.
And by the way, it all started because I was getting calls to my personal cell phone, from leaders of small nonprofits who went to my website could not afford me who wanted to know if I knew any board members in Montana, if I knew a funder in Cincinnati, and I went to my digital marketing partner, and I said, there's so many of them out there. And he said, Why don't we build an online membership site so that you can scale what you do and offer them both content and community so they don't feel alone, and they feel a sense of moral support. And we opened the doors in May of 2017 and we thought it would be cool if we got 300 people. And you know, it was like 30 bucks ahead per month is more now, but not a lot more and almost 1000 people joined sight unseen not even knowing what the thing was. And almost 200 of those people are still members today.
Wow.
Joan Garry, I just adore you. I cannot believe it took three years of the podcast for us to meet. I hope it is shorter the next time you come on.
Me too. Invite me back.
Totally will.
I'd be happy, happy to help continue the conversation.
We absolutely will. And I hope everyone out there got as good as much from this conversation and, and know that you're not alone in this. I want to give like a free mom hug out here. You have got this in 2024. It is a new era you are capable of this. And if you feel overwhelmed, please find community you can always come to the We Are For Good Community. You can go to the Nonprofit Lab Community, there are communities everywhere. We want you to find your people, because no one needs to go at this alone. And guess what, when we lean in, that's when the magic is going to happen.
Hear, hear.
So don't lean out friends. Let's lean in. Thank you, Joan.
Thank you very much Becky and Jon, this was a really fun conversation.
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