Building Durable and Retention Focused Team Cultures

4:01PM Aug 7, 2024

Speakers:

Jonathan McCoy

Becky Endicott

Michelle Flores Vryn

Lindsey Fuller

Jennifer Mulholland

Channon Lucas

Keywords:

people

culture

lindsey

nonprofits

feel

talk

team

leaders

community

human

conversation

good

started

folks

care

great

light

love

staff

organization

Hey, I'm Jon.

And I'm Becky.

And this is the We Are For Good podcast.

Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions, and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories all to create an impact uprising.

So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabbit fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

So let's get started.

Hey, Becky, how are you?

Hey, Jon, I am excited to talk about, how are we gonna build durable, retention, focused team cultures like we are diving deeply into this conversation about, how do we build vibrant teams? How do we build cultures that we don't have to recover from? And it's just really time to name that elephant in the room, which is retention. And I'm not talking about external retention with our donors. We're talking about retention of our staff. This is the greatest retention issue that isn't talked about enough right now, and we see that there is such opportunity to re imagine the way that we pour into our staff. So we really want you to dive into this conversation that we had a couple of months ago at the responsive nonprofit summit that's really lifting this incredible opportunity that's there for the taking.

Yeah, and the panelists that joined us for this conversation that are here today are really going to challenge our notions, because they are living this out, and they're doing it in a human, centered and really inclusive way. So such an honor to introduce you to Channon Lucas. She's the Chief Administrative Officer at Mother Cabrini Health Foundation, and Lindsey Fuller, she's no stranger to the podcast, the executive director at the teaching well, and Jennifer Mulholland, one of the co-founders at Plenty and author of Leading with Light. And Michelle Flores Vryn, one of great we are for good community member and Head of Development for iNaturalist. So this conversation is going to be so fiery and also full of how we can really do the work together to focus on retention. So, so glad you're here. Okay, what a group, and I want to make up for a little bit of lost time and jump in here and get straight to some of the data. I mean, Michelle, you and our friend Evan Wildstein, in the We Are For Good community, did this study, and it was really kind of informal, but I think it's really given us a lot of tone setting for why we wanted to prioritize talking about retention this year, specifically through our channels. Of we are for good. But you did this overview to figure out, what are people feeling in the sector. Tell us what you found.

Yes. So we did this from a practitioner level. So Evan and I are both fundraisers, and we were really interested in asking people, why are you thinking about leaving your job? Or, if you're not, why is that? And we did this survey, and we had a couple of like, top level findings, which really interesting. And I do want to say this is like U.S. based demographics, so keeping that mind. So we asked people, are you going to looking for new job? Last year, it was in the fall. So that would be this year in 2024 74% of people said that they would be looking for work in 2024 which is shocking. That's a lot.

74%

Let it soak in for a second. And when you look at, you know, other sectors, we're about 10 points higher than other sectors in the time the survey was done. And, you know, not too shocking, we had a lot of different types of people take the survey, fundraisers, marketers, etc. And we always think of fundraisers as having that reputation of, you know, we have quick turnaround times. Our tenure is very short. But there was a lot of other folks in other areas arts and culture, specifically policy and advocacy, that were leaving at higher rates as well. So for arts and culture, about 93% of folks who took the survey said that they would be looking for other work, and even in marketing communications and nonprofits, about 80% of people said they would be looking for other works. So I just want to make it clear that even though Evan and I are both fundraisers, this is a problem across the board. And you can obviously look at the survey, you know, and more in depth after this, but we also asked people why would you stay? And so the most important reason people said that they would stay was flexibility in their work. So oftentimes in nonprofits, we feel like, you know, we can't pay competitive salaries and other things, but we can get flexibility. And that was one thing that really grounded people in their job and said, You know what, I'm gonna stick around, because I love how flexible my workplace is being with me. So that was a great finding.

And I think one of the data points that stuck with me so much as you hear the 74% and we're shocked by it, but we're not shocked by it, but even two thirds of that 74% said they were thinking about leaving the sector. And so this is a true prob, I don't even want to say problem. It is a crisis that we are. Really digging into and Lindsey, I want to go to you because I think you're working with so many teachers school districts, you're working with healers and community leaders, and you're really trying to understand the source of that burnout, which thank you so much for going into that work and digging into the details. Lift out what you're seeing, what are some of these root causes, and talk to us about where this burnout is coming from.

Yeah, I wish I had a wand to just wave it all away, but you know, historically, both the education field and the social impact sector are under resourced, right? We're competing. We're not building coalition. There's so many ways that we could be linking up in solidarity, but we're spending 20 hours on a grant application for 25,000 or there's 16 consultants working in the same school district, fighting for the pennies. I'm just going to really call it what it is. We want big missions, and we also need to have strategic plans that aren't equally as enormous. And so we're really seeing that workloads and strategic plans, priorities that leaders are setting are far beyond what is sustainable for the staff. We are also watching as a lot of folks are reeling, reeling still from the peak of the pandemic. It's not over. We're not back to normal. And so whether it's mental health challenges or physical fatigue, emotional dysregulation, people aren't well. We're still not well. And when we when we're unwell, we actually begin to see an increase in interpersonal ruptures, and so many of the the causes for folks that are leading to chronic burnout and ultimately attrition are that we're not enjoying showing up to work in the same ways that we really felt called when we initially pursued the role. And so I do, I do want to just add one plug for the professional parents we see you, I think especially folks who are we talk about caring from the center. Veteran teachers and nonprofit staff at this point are doing bi-directional care. We are tending to young ones in our homes, but we're also executing elder care. And when you are caring in the middle, and then you show up to work and you're giving your full heart, we've got nothing in the tank at the end of the day, and so we're really watching as there's an overlap with attrition and folks that are providing care for others. These are just some of the many, many burnout causes, but it's what we're watching at the Teaching Well.

I mean, thank you for going there. I love the way that you show up in this space, and honestly, how you kind of ground all of our conversations back, and you kind of called out that, you know, all of us feel a different amount of pressure in the way that we're showing up. And you know, we want to bring these conversations to light. And so if you're here in this room, like, I really believe this is an uplift place for you, I mean, you're surrounded by people that want to pour into you. You have belonging and care here in this room. And I want to talk about, how do we go from where we're at today to where we want to go? Like there's a path to healing. Jen, I want to kick it to you, because you pour so much into this work, just how do you start? How do you start that healing process? What would you kind of guide us to personally as we walk through some of these challenging pieces.

Well, I think the first step to healing really starts with awareness, awareness of self and awareness of soul, awareness of our body. Like, what do we need to fill up? Because Lindsey, I love that, like we just can't give what we don't have, and we're so wired to be givers, to be care, care offers, to be the ones that are doing our best to make this world a better place, and whether we're doing that with our children and our partnerships or our community, if we don't know how to give to ourselves first and not feel selfish about that, that's like a construct that I think is really outdated and that we've grown out grown that like somehow, if I give to myself first, it's a selfish act, and we tend to put ourselves at the bottom of the list. And so the revolution that's needed is, what if I put myself first at the beginning of the day and really became more attentive and attuned to what does my body need? How does my body speak to me today? Do Am I feeling tired? Am I feeling vital and energized? Do I expand when I go to work, or do I contract? Am I want procrastinating? Or am I having this intrinsic motivation to to want to give, because I'm so full, I can't help but overflow in my service to others, I'm not surprised with the numbers, because. Because we're having an awakening, and it's an awakening of alignment. Am I in alignment in my language? It's with my light, with who I my essence is, with what I'm here to do and be. And if I'm out of alignment, then absolutely I'm going to question, Do I belong here? Is this the right fit? And I really believe that we deserve to be healthy, happy and whole and and used. It's why we're incarnated as human beings. And so finding that alignment, where we can be in alignment with what lights us up, and part of the the first step of healing is becoming aware when you light up and when you don't, when you're dimming. And we're not here to dim our light. You know, we are here to be as big and bright and bold as possible. And yes, the human journey is up and down. So it's not all rosy and sunshine every day, but I would say awareness of what does your body need? What do does your soul need to be nourished, to feel full and alive, to feel connected to the light beyond you, the people you're leading, the people you're supporting, like, do you feel full so that it just naturally overflows? Oftentimes, we're just not aware. So we live in our heads. We kind of are so mental that we've forgotten to drop in to our heart space, to our body space and just tune into what is our body suggesting in the moment. If we can do that, our body will inform us where we need to be and what feels good and what doesn't.

I think this is probably such a novel concept for so many of us, and I am also speaking for myself, and I have to say, selfishly, Jon and I are probably thinking, we just built this panel so we can get some healing and share it with everybody else, because you women are so brilliant. But I hope this isn't the first time that you are here, hearing that you are worthy of healing, you are worthy of equal power, that you are worthy of stepping in to the light that is within you and in our community. At We Are For Good We're always on search for where are those healthy cultures? And when we met Channon Lucas, do you remember just the record scratch of what is happening at Mother Cabrini and what you were doing to build these generative cultures where employees feel like they are not only empowered, but the power of the engine to step up like talk to us a little bit about what you are doing, share some of these insights, and y'all, let's start integrating them into our cultures.

Well, thank you, Becky, and I appreciate that. And I really love the word culture, because even as you hear it, it's such a strong word, right? Just to hear culture, but it's such a slippery concept, right? I love what Jen said about light, and I think for some of us in senior leadership, we're the torch bearers for culture. And for those who don't know, Cabrini is five years old. So when we started, my CEO and I talked about building a culture that we'd want to show up to for work. Nothing here at the end of the day, no one's going to jail if we don't get that grant out. Somebody needs that grant. Don't get me wrong, but we want people to understand that the work is important, but it's not something that's going to be breaking you down where you don't you know, want to come in the next day. But one of the ways I think we get to that generative space is really to start demystifying some of the decision making. I've worked in organizations where everything is the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, right, and you have no idea who's deciding what or why. I literally sometimes talk out loud with team members about what I'm deciding and why, so that they can understand the thought process. They can contribute to some of those decisions. When it comes to how we're moving forward, how are we growing? We currently are, right now putting together a comp philosophy, and we've got different small groups of employees who are partaking in that process. But I think that transparency allows people to see your authenticity, your humanity, in the decision making, and it also lets them see that you're not afraid of making a wrong choice. Right we fail, and I think failure creates new lines of inquiry. Failure lets people know that it's okay for them to fail. Again. Five years in, we're starting to grow and expand. So new things are coming, and a lot of people bring new ideas to us, but I always say you kind of grow what you feed and what you nourish, and in having that inclusivity and decision making has been hugely important to us in the first, first five years.

I mean, thank you. For putting that into practice. Love that you're, you know, figuring this out in real time, and just your candor and bringing us behind the scenes. So I want to keep going with Michelle. I mean, what? Let's double click on. What do people want? You know, as we start to think about, how do we really turn this conversation practical for all of us? What is, what are people looking for when it comes to staying in an organization. Obviously, the report gave some clues. But what are you seeing?

Yeah, I mean, the number one reason that people said they were leaving was because they did not have enough support to match the level of responsibility that they're tasked with. And I'm sure for a lot of people here working in nonprofits, you can relate to that feeling. So what if you flip that? Okay, what does that look like when it's going well, I think it looks like leadership being very real with what they can accomplish and what they cannot accomplish. And Evan and I, my co-conspirator on the survey. You know, we talk a lot about terms like the chopping block or like pruning our work and really looking at what are we currently doing, and do we have the capacity to do all of these things, and it's okay if we say no to that, right? I feel that as nonprofit professionals and practitioners, these are worldly, huge, complex problems that our hearts are deeply tied up in but we don't want to do ourselves a disservice by taking on more than we can actually do. So that's a leadership level problem to me. It's like we need to be get really real about what can we accomplish and put things on the chopping block and say, you know, this piece, we probably can't sustain this, you know. And that's okay, because it'll allow us to do this other thing. So it's not so much like a checklist of things to do. I think of it as more the mindset you're approaching your work with, you know. So we need to have leaders who pattern that for us. We need to see that behavior modeled so it becomes more normal. I noticed in the chat, there was a comment, I think, from Tom, you know, he was saying that oftentimes in nonprofit work, there is no clear path to how you move up. You kind of just get stuck in these roles. And we probably all felt like that. We started in this one role, and it was good, but five years later, we're still in that same role that jived so well with what we found in the survey, people said that the lack of obvious growth or a clear path to growth, was a real detriment and made them want to leave so how do you flip that, right? It's you get to know people as people on your team. You have to know when they're feeling like I'm overwhelmed. I need help. Like, you have to take time to build that relationship with folks so they open up to you and they're able to say, like, hey, I need, I need support on this project. I you know, it's too much, and I think because we're not taking the time to build those relationships within people just feel like there's no there's no future for me here, and they leave. So that's another thing I really urge people, and in the report, there's more specific things that you can do. There's a specific template called all about me that you can circulate to your team, learn about each other, learn about how they like to be treated under stress. Do this. Don't do this kind of thing. We're all good conversations we have to be having, and it's a key part of repairing this kind of turnover cycle.

Okay, you guys are saying enough things that I'm seeing the chat light up, so I know that there is resonance. People are feeling seen. And I want to encourage people who are watching and listening drop your questions in the chat, or we have a Q and A box. We have such incredible insight here that you are starting to see get unpacked, and we want to source what your issues are. I mean, Orion, that yours is such a cautionary, laughable, sad comment in the chat. I think we've all been there, but I think that, you know, we talk about this at an individual level. But how do we get into the systems level? How do we integrate this human centered design approach into the systems level? Lindsey, you're already doing this. I feel like you have put your flag in the ground. You have been doing this for years. And the teaching, Well, honestly, is one of the healthiest, most vibrant communities we've seen in the We Are For Good community like help kind of unpack about the relationship between humans and systems that you all have seen.

Yeah, I appreciate that. You know, in both the social sector and in education, we are necessarily people focused, systems do matter. And I think we've gotten to a place in the society where we suggest that it's okay if we replace the humans, as long as your systems are strong, and this is a concept that is implicitly shared all of the time, especially in schools and districts, as long as you have strong systems, it's okay if folks leave, right? We can train them into our systems. And that's flawed. It's flawed our missions live. Because of our teams.

Hard stop.

And that's it, right? And so, you know, Jon and Becky heard this, but I'm like when we started to acknowledge that educators aren't leaving schools because of kids. They're quitting their bosses in toxic adult culture, the same is true in nonprofits, one of the highest leverage investments that nonprofits should be making, in my opinion, are into their people managers. We assume that folks know how to supervise, to coach, to support our teammates through life crises and work failures, that they're prepared to navigate discomfort across difference. And the truth is, many folks have never had explicit training on supervision techniques that are free of supremacy, that aren't perpetuating kind of that grind culture we go first. And I love what Michelle has been been sharing around, you know the lack of support for these unique roles. I saw Julie in the chat saying that many senior leaders don't understand the role of a fundraiser. It's time for us as leaders to clear our calendars, to find time at minimum, to find bi-monthly opportunities to walk with our staff, especially the ones that are holding positions that we haven't held ourselves. You can't coach if you have no framework for the type of work that you're expecting. And so I really am just inviting in more consideration to the interpersonal layer, you said, individual and systemic. But what actually makes that possible is the human part. And so we have to go beyond design and into living it. Have you done a policy audit? Are you just checkboxing that's stale implicit bias training? Y'all sorry that online training on harassment. I know it's a compliance effort. It's not good enough. It's not enough. Being Human and interacting with others is really dynamic. And when we want to build cultures that we don't need to heal from, it's going to take explicit training, coaching, supervision and ongoing practice, or at bats, at being in community in ways that promote healing and not harm. And so that's really some of my invitation here, to be human centered means to actually agendize human focused topics in your professional development, in your staff meetings and leaders, we set the tone right. And so if you're sending emails at two in the morning, please Lord it's a schedule send. It's a schedule send. But really, you know, when you're not taking comp time, it's lip service. You're telling your team one thing, and you're never taking PTO. It's that scarcity mindset. We're hoarding, we're withholding. We have to model that we are whole humans, and our staff will fall in line. Otherwise, it's artificial and it's not authentic. So some invitations for you all.

Yeah, I love that so much. Lindsey, and I love that it's an invitation, but I would invite you all to practice that too. It doesn't start and stop. So oftentimes I've run into people who are managers, and I've been a manager for 20 years. Doesn't mean you're a good one, and it doesn't mean that you are currently managing people in a way that they need, and that fits in with the paradigm of where you are. So one of the things on a systems level that we've been talking about quite a bit at Cabrini is, how do we create training that ties into our culture? How do we think about conflict resolution in a way that we want to frame it? Everyone's going to have their own style, and they're going to approach things in their own way. But, you know, I'm a big believer in conflict being solved as locally as possible. I can get in there and help you resolve it, but for the interpersonal relationship, I think you want to be able to do that on your own. But I run into these folks sometimes, and nobody, specifically in my current company, feel that they have been managing people, and I've done performance evaluations. It doesn't mean you're good at it, and it doesn't mean you're doing it in a way that is consistent and in alignment with the values we are trying to build in our culture. So I want to just extend Lindsey's comment, which was beautiful, a little bit, to invite you all to continue to practice that it doesn't go away. We're talking about building cohorts of management training, where you're going to hit these trainings on a period you know might be every two or three years you have to do a conflict resolution course, or one of my favorites, which is HR for non HR managers, hearing and seeing things that you are completely missing because you are insensitive to someone requesting an accommodation or understanding that you know work life balance matters for this organization. Well, it might not matter in your business line, so finding those sort of cracks and the foundation, no pun intended, that could lead to some culture shift later. It's important to be doing that periodically as managers.

Oh my gosh.

Can I get an amen?

I'm living for this. Everyone's loving y'all being in this pulpit. And Jen, I want you to get in here. I mean, your background with human performance psychology. You're an alchemist. I mean, what is this stirring up for you as you coach individuals and teams through some of these more difficult topics?

Well, I couldn't agree more. I think it starts with us and how we have to model the way, I think, from my experience working with a lot of nonprofit and for profit executives and leaders, we're running too fast, and we are not slowing down to be fully active in our presence, to really be present, to model presence and to offer presence with our staff and each other, like I love Lindsey. You know the idea of stepping into coaching and the difference? People don't know the difference between coaching and management. It's there is a difference. We don't. We haven't been taught as a collective how to listen, how to not be the magic answer machine as the boss. Most people just need to be heard. They'll figure out the answer, because they we all have the answers within ourselves, but that, how do we model that way? I think, from a team based in the idea of coalitions, you know, needing to be formed, and our collaborative co-creative culture that is being starved to activate in community, that the answer is in the collective, the answer the wisdom is in the room. So as leaders and as culture bearers, how do we cultivate that? We can do that by asking great questions and investing in our staff. So if we're asking them to do more, we have to invest in team retreats, in off sites, in conscious conversations, to extract the human, personal points that you all are talking about. I couldn't agree more that organizations are made up of people, and at the end of the day, we need to be as people, seen, served and supported, as whole human beings. So part of my leaning and what I see work is as leaders. If we could invest in really getting to know what lights up our staff individually, what are our team members and what are ourselves passionate about? A wonderful question is, what brings you joy? Super simple. Where do you lean in? It's natural. You don't have to be told what to do. If you were your own boss and you owned your own organization and company, what where would you spend your time if money was not in the field, and if impact was already covered, right? Where would you naturally lean in? So what are you great at? Sorry, what are you passionate about? And then I believe that our strengths, what we're great at, literally correlate to what we're passionate about. If you can imagine, we call it the trinity of alignment that we write about in our book, Leading with Light. But if you think about a triangle, and the basis is passions and strengths, and if you can get to know that for yourself and for your team, where do they light up? Where what brings them joy? What are they passionate about? And then their strengths correlate to that, if those can map to the business need, and you can do that for each individual, then you start to see the system, the cultural, you know, team based collaboration, so that the things that people aren't good at, they can delegate. They could say, hey, oh my gosh, you're great at this. Could you step in and do this? We don't have to take it all on ourselves, because when we do shit that we don't like to do, we procrastinate. We're not good at it. We're inefficient. We have to be told we have to be micromanaged, and that is the opposite of peak performance. High performing teams do what they love. They do what they're great at, and all of those things map to the need of the community, the need of the the constituents, the need of the beneficiary, the need of the organization, but we're kind of missing investing in that. We're just piling on more stuff to do, and we're not stepping back and say, Wow, is this person really wired to contribute in this way? Does this light them up? And I think it's we're just missing the boat there.

Michelle, get in here.

I can already tell you from this panel, Jen is going to become my new best friend. So I love everything that she says. So thank you for all your contributions. Just tacking on to that really quickly, because I know I want to allow some time for audience, Q and A, my favorite part, but I do want to speak to all of like the leaders in the room as a non profit practitioner right now. You know, I really think if you're a nonprofit leader. You have a team. You have positional power. A lot of this has to do with power within teams. And if you have positional power to slow down, interrogate your own relationship with time, and to look at the timelines and project load that you're taking on as an individual, but also all of that that's rolling downhill, and ask yourself, are there areas to where you can prune things that aren't as high value? Because I think it's easy to say this from an outsider perspective, but it's really on the leaders internally in these teams to ask those questions. So I really just want to call that out, and everyone in the room today who does manage a team or has positional power. Think about that and see some areas that maybe you can create healthier patterns, because that's where it has to start.

Okay. I mean, it's just like one wisdom bomb drop after another. And if this is really a new conversation mindset idea for you, dig in like we are seeing book drops in here, Julie, if you would even drop Leading with Light, where people can go and get that book. I literally was crying reading this book that Jen and Jeff had written. I mean, just talking about the infallibility of leaders and how we need to overcome that, and I want you to find community friends around this, because doing this in a silo is going to create an echo chamber. It's going to create questions. Ask your questions, challenge yourself, challenge your leaders. And I want to kick it to Channon, we're rounding down. You're all podcast alums on the we are for good podcast. You know, we're going to end with a one good thing. And Channon, I wonder what your one good thing is, that you want to leave with the audience today as it relates to this topic.

Sure and as I started with I'll let you guys see my thinking, but my HR team and I are having a lot of conversations right now about, do we implement stay interviews? We have a pretty good retention rate. So you know, it's not as though we're worried about people running away, but the stay interview shows our commitment to wanting you to stay. We want to hear you. I love what Jen said about actively listening, right? We do a lot of things for employees, but are we hearing what you want, what you need, and are you being fulfilled? So this is a discussion we're having the hesitation, and I'm sure you all know this is resources aren't just money. It's our time and our bandwidth to work through, you know, 60 plus people to do these day interviews and do them in a meaningful way. But a one good thing is to have that active, intentional listening. So that's what I would leave you all with as a additional practice.

Hearts are flowing. Yes. Okay. Lindsey, what do you think one good thing?

Yes. In addition to investing in your people managers, I really agree with the stay conversation. We just actually dropped a blog on this on the Teaching Well's website, and I want to invite in that there's a somatic response, especially for those with employment trauma, especially for those with identities sitting on the margins, there is still power, even in a conversation where you're inviting someone to consider whether they'll stay. And so we actually provide a bit of scaffolding to think about this. And I just want to demystify that your stay conversation doesn't need to be an hour scheduled once annual. My team knows and they hear me every day. Let's go get neck tattoos, y'all and I see you. You're the future of the organization. I want you here. We it is not fluffy, it's direct. Do you know how much I value you? Are you clear that I want you to stay you're making a huge impact. That should be a daily dose of gratitude. It should be micro dosing wellness, as we say, and it should be infusing them with the security from leadership that they're valued and that we see the future with them here in the organization. So stay conversation should be an ongoing topic in your agendas. Couldn't agree more.

I just had a somatic

I know I'm feeling chills.

I just, I mean, it's so weird to not to hear for the first time. I want you here. What if people said that to you regularly? How would that even shift inside, externally? How you show up? Michelle, what have you got one good thing,

Yeah, it goes well with Lindsey's. I want you to hear statement I dropped in the chat that reference to the all about me template, which has four simple questions, and you just use that with your team like there's no reason not to do it. You can. Here's a template. Just talk, have everybody go around, and one thing that you we really need to spend more time on is investing and getting to know these people who are doing the work. Yes, they're doing the work, but let's care more deeply about them as humans. And I guarantee you a lot of this will shift.

Amen, Jen, bring us home, bring us home to healing. And I know you will.

I have two. Well, first, we just we under we underrate how powerful we are and the way that we speak to ourselves manifest in form outside. And so anything that follows I am are the I am are the two most powerful manifesting words in the universe. And so just challenge and invite you to say, I am worthy. I am powerful. I am here. I am alive. I am vital. I am contributing. I am receiving whatever that is. We can't rely on our managers to validate us if we don't validate ourselves. Everything starts with how you speak to yourself, how you believe in yourself, because it will be mirrored and reflected outside, like attracts, like whatever frequency we are vibing at, we are attracting. So it's no longer possible to participate in the victim consciousness, because we're contributing to that. We have to be the ones that are tapping ourselves on the head and changing that because we can do that self healing and that self belief. And one of the simple ways, even if you don't buy it, just try it, because your subconscious can kind of get on board. The second thing I would say, in the in the spirit of deserving, one easy way to ask yourself every day, in every moment is, does this feel good? Giving yourself permission to follow the feeling of feeling good in your choices is a game changer. You could also shorten that is, I follow flow, that wherever there's resistance, what if you, you left the resistance alone just for a bit, and you, you tuned your attention to where there is momentum, where there's ease, where there's flow, because where there's flow, there's feelings of feeling good. And I just think we've kind of underrated that attunement in our own compass for ourselves and the teams that we lead, because we kind of been taught to be problem solvers, but as Becky and Jon have heard me say before in the nonprofit sector, as problem solvers, guess what we attract? If we identify that way, we we attract more problems to solve, so we are the ones to take our power back and say, What? What do I want to participate? Do I want to participate in abundance of flow and ease for all, for the highest and greatest good of many? Or do I want to spend my time trying to fix problems by, you know, facing on resistance. I'm not saying either one is good or bad, but it is a choice, and it really determine, will determine how we feel about navigating our career paths and growth.

Thank you all okay, the the presence this word came up earlier in the conversation, but I felt that and the connection in this room through each of your voices cut through to me, and I know it did by following the chat today. So thank you for bringing each of your whole selves, each of your wisdom. Please drop your LinkedIn into the chat so y'all we can fill our feeds with this type of insight and joy and care. So please, each of these women are incredible thought leaders in the space. Please follow them on LinkedIn. And then I want to invite you. We have a closing keynote. We have a couple more sessions before them, but the closing keynote today, I think, is so relevant. It's literally called from fighting with pain to building with joy, from Sonya Perez Lauterbach, another podcast alum that has given us such care in our journey. And I'm going to invite you to come. If this has spoken to you, I know you're going to you, I know you're going to love that keynote, so don't miss it, friends. Thank you for being here with us. Grateful for our sponsors. I got to list them off, Microsoft feather community boost one cause classy windfall, amphil and cause camp. Thank you for making this free. Thank you for making this accessible. And we are so grateful for the platform today, really grateful for each of you. Thank you.