I think the key skill of architecture is about communication. Hello and welcome to the Business of Architecture.
I am your host, Ryan Willard. And in today's segment I'm very pleased to be engaging. In a wonderful conversation with Chris Simmons. A multi talented individual who skillfully intertwines the roles of an architect, Illustrator, an educator, rooted in the heart of London and the South East of the UK. Chris holds the esteemed position of Associate Director at the distinguished brixon based architecture practice Squire and partners and establishment renowned for its creative flair and architectural ingenuity. You might remember the brilliant conversation I had with Henry squire a few years ago on the podcast where I visited their beautiful department store, refurbishment renovation job redevelopment master plan down in Brixton, which I thought was absolutely brilliant and one of the most fantastic offices I've been in for a while. Furthermore, Chris is the visionary behind architects instruction, which is an innovative mentoring platform, which has been meticulously crafted to bolster the professional journey of architects and designers. Through his personalized guidance, Chris endeavors to pave pathways for professionals to ascend into realms of happier, healthier, and unequivocally rewarding careers enrich with creativity and innovation. Chris is a passionate advocate for the dissemination of architectural knowledge. He is a familiar face in the digital sphere, consistently illuminating online platforms with insightful narratives on all facets of architecture. His eloquent contributions have fostered a community of enthusiastic followers on LinkedIn, and Instagram, connecting like minded individuals with a shared reverence for architectural artistry. So in this episode, we discuss about the career pathways into architecture, some of the challenges that the industry faces, tips, ideas and strategies for younger architects to be able to develop their their ability to be able to win new jobs, and how they can be developing professionally, the kind of career planning aspects that are that are essential. And we look back at the kind of importance of business education that's often missing and lacking in our typical architectural education and how not having that has serious consequences. So sit back, relax, and enjoy Chris Simmons. It's time to announce this month 200 club if you missed our episode on the 200 Club, listen to VOA episode 485 To learn more about this new initiative to benchmarking small firm performance. So a big congratulations to Drew and Justin Tyndall are any Adams Ramiro Torres, Chris Brandon Mark elstar, Sven Levine Thomas Naughton, Charles scram in and Tony Wilson, Ryan Salas, Yost Abend de Lena bola, Judy and Larry Apple Push on it and Kyle Glandon and Gilbert Ateeq great job to everybody who's made it into our 200 club members this month, keep it up. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com. Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how I might be able to help you. Please follow the link in the information. Chris, welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
Yeah, good. Thank you for having me. I've been a longtime listener of the podcast. So I'm kind of flabbergasted to actually be on the podcast. So yeah.
My absolute privilege and pleasure to have you on I've been very inspired with your social media presence, your leadership that you've taken on in the industry. You're an architect, you're your director at Squire and partners. You've been there for what nearly 10 years?
Yeah, so I'm an associate director at squire has been there for nine and a half coming up. 10 years.
Yeah. Fantastic. So So a long, long career in a in the UK, top architecture practices. And a few How long ago was it maybe a year or two couple of years ago when you started the architects instruction?
Yeah, I think it's been it's been two years now I think. Yeah, so that's been steadily steadily growing and you know, as as with a lot of people have started as a lockdown hobby and has sort of steadily grown. Yeah, and, you know, as we're doing nice things open lots of interesting opportunities and things like this really cool. It's a very
kind of compelling feed or kind of curation of beautiful pictorial illustrations and drawings. And then kind of heartwarming anecdotes and stories and advice really about how to progress your career and evolve. And perhaps a lot of advice that gets missing in architecture, either from at university or even in your own career development. I sometimes feel that, that you're kind of career advice, if you like, well, mentorship is not always present. What was it that had you start the construction.
So I think I started, as I said, it was a it was a lockdown thing, and I started really kind of remembering how important drawing was to me. So, you know, I kind of I've always drawn, I've always, you know, it's always been an important part of who I am and what I do in architecture and stuff. And I started drawing as a kind of cathartic thing of, you know, being at home with the kids all day and trying to work from home, using the evenings to kind of just draw something. And I don't know how I started, but I did one post of a drawing that I've done online, got a very sort of positive response. And it ended up, you know, lots of nice comments and things. And I thought, Oh, this, you know, maybe there's something quite nice in this. So, I started kind of regularly doing that posting online, you know, doing my drawings and things. And then I suppose you kind of open your mouth, the more you're kind of involved with the platform, you kind of open yourself up to different things. And I started seeing other people posting things about architecture, and I think things specifically about architecture students. So there's one page which is to scale which is by Sarna, so she was growing a page, which she was, I think she was a part one at the time. And she was talking about her experience as a part one. And, and, you know, her going back to uni, and all those sorts of things. And it really kind of struck me as something that was, you know, if someone was kind of talking about that, when I was a student, that'd be incredibly useful. So it kind of inspired me to kind of think, Okay, I'm a bit longer in the tooth and a bit more experienced, maybe there's, you know, people that will value my kind of experience and my kind of help, and started kind of, you know, hosting things that were trying to help people either, you know, sort of transitioning from university to practice, or people, you know, a sort of architect level looking to, you know, grow or, you know, go up the food chain sort of thing. You know, there's nothing about, you know, helping people a few years behind me. So that's, that's kind of, you know, how it started, and I suppose, how it's grown, what
are the you do you think a lot of the struggles challenges that young architects are facing and architects in employment face a lot of?
Well, I suppose there's the age old disconnect, that everyone's kind of, aware of, and we all kind of know about, you know, the disconnect between university and practice. And, you know, I, like many people came out of university, I mean, I, I loved University, I really engaged I went to Canterbury, which is a very sort of creative art space University, like fully, you know, into that sort of mindset. Really enjoyed it really thought of a lot of use and opened my eyes up to a lot of things, but, you know, there is a clear when going into practice, my clear experience was, you know, Jesus, this is quite different than all of those skills, I've kind of learned there are, you know, sort of the design skills, but the actual day to day thing of being an architect is quite different. So, I think a lot of it is based on, you know, that sort of that sort of theme of kind of filling in the gaps that you don't necessarily get taught. But there are, you know, similar threads at every level, you know, when when people are moving from architects to, you know, associate or, you know, middle management levels, again, you're, you're moving the threshold, but without much kind of new knowledge or training or anything like that you kind of learn on the job. So, again, that's, that's people kind of, you know, needing to understand a whole series of management type skills that we're not really taught that we're, you know, kind of expected to kind of get to grips with and things like that. So, there are those sort of thresholds in architecture and you know, and lots of other careers but having that kind of helping hand I think is kind of super important and it's kind of a cool that kind of struck me when you know, kind of planning this stuff.
That's that's quite interesting the the kind of professional career developments, you know, university is, in a way, quite, quite structured. And certainly becoming licensed as an architect is a very structured and a formal process. So structured, in fact, it's quite difficult to get off once you're once you're on it. But then when we enter into kind of becoming, becoming an architect, there are all these new skill sets to learn, you're dealing with people, you're now kind of responsible for other people's results, when you start leading or managing teams, there's kind of communication with with the client. And if you're fortunate enough to be a have the aptitude to kind of learn through motion, and in great, but then you also need to be immersed in the right kind of environment with the right sorts of people who are doing the right sorts of things in the first place. And often, that's not the case. And it's kind of, you know, bad habits being passed on. And there isn't any kind of space for reflection, I think that's the other. You know, I'm fascinated by some of the traditional methods that have Japanese boat making, for example, where the students go in, and they're not allowed to ask any questions or do anything for like a year. And it's kind of like a silent meditative practice, but they're just watching, they have to learn instinctively, you know, to respond to what the, what the Masters responses are. And that's in a kind of very beautiful, controlled sort of environment. But it's also in the context of like people being very reflective over what they're looking at and what they're seeing. And I think that space of reflection is often missing in our own careers, which is why something like what you're doing is so powerful, because it does offer people to actually just take a little step back a bit from, from your perspective, what the impacts in your own career. What were the kind of difficult movement points if you like?
Well, I suppose I always like to say the reflection thing is something I do quite a lot in my own, you know, self neuroses type thing. But I think I've always been kind of quite, quite privileged in that I've had a lot of good people around me, like, all of the people I've worked for have been very good, caring, interested, mentors sort of thing. And that's, I think that's kind of a key thing. That's, you know, my career has been built on these people that had the time, the patience, the interest to kind of go above and beyond kind of help me with things. And I think, I think a lot of people don't, unfortunately, get that because, you know, not everyone are as selfless or, you know, willing to give their time in that extra ways sort of thing. You know, it's not just by being in practice, because there are lots of things where you require, you know, questions, answers time, you know, timeout of your of your day to day working to kind of take that point. So, I think for me, it's kind of, you know, I can kind of think about those kind of leaps of my part one, part two, part three sort of thing. And the sort of key people around that. So, for example, so, as I said, I went, I went to Canterbury, for my part one, and my part two actually started in a medium sized practice, designing sort of churches and sort of public buildings in Kent. And again, you know, there was, there was a single guy there, the, I think it was an associate, and he was that person that really took time and effort to educate me to, you know, not just in the sort of day job, but you know, all the other sort of bits around it. I eventually got made redundant from there and then started at hawks architecture hawks is a run by Richard hawks, which is, they do sort of one off private houses in the countryside. So he'd just finished his house, which had been on Grand Designs, when I started, and there was, I think it was one or two other people in the office, but it was literally, you know, from the ground up a small practice in his, you know, we were working out of his Passive House sort of thing and trying to understand all the tech around it, and, you know, this thing. So, I mean, that was a super interesting experience. Because, again, Richard is a really interesting and kind person, that's, you know, taking the effort to teach you a lot of things. But you are kind of in this new build passive house learning all these kind of new technologies and things as you go, which was kind of super engaging, and, you know, a completely different experience than I had before. So I think I think that was that kind of, you know, throwing yourself into, from the sort of part one university era to practice and, you know, I had two very helpful mentors in that and I continue to work with hawks part time during my part two. Part Two was, you know, again, I had Charles Holland who was previously at fat as a tutor, and he was, you know, again, a super engaging, really interesting person and support sieve and all that sort of thing, like, super experiences with them, and then eventually ended up at Squire and partners, you know, moving from very small practice in Kent, to the big city, and on to much larger things and, you know, doing very different, you know, huge scale residential things and mass plans and offices and stuff. And, yeah, I think it's, I think, again, it's just the helpfulness of people around you, the mentors that take their time. And each each lead, I've been very kind of lucky to have them I think, somewhere
like Squires, I imagined have a quite a structured process for mentoring or for or for at least nurturing and kind of incubating talent. It's not it's not uncommon that I have to speak to squire employees who have been there for a long, long period of time, so they're clearly doing something. Well.
Yeah, it's an interesting one as well, because it's, you know, it's a family practice. You know, Michael squire actually recently passed away. And I remember you've interviewed Henry before he was just done. You know, it's, it's very much that kind of feel of family and nurturing and stuff. And I think it is very much about the people, I think that's one of the really positive things are the people are already great. And, you know, they're all decent human beings sort of thing doing the right stuff. So, I think so much of it comes from the people. And, and, and as you say, the systems are kind of in place. I mean, luckily, I'm now involved or have been involved for the last six years in the education group. So you know, we have very structured Part Three mentoring systems, and, you know, helping people graduate from, you know, being architectural assistants to architects sort of things, you know, a lot of time and effort goes into nurturing people. And, you know, we've recently started up a apprenticeship scheme with Oxford Brookes. So that's taking part when students becoming architects, so it's something we're all very keen to be involved in, and, you know, me particularly trying to drive it drive it through the practice. And, you know, I think it's kind of key when you when you have a larger practice like that, you know, having those systems in place, because, you know, it's, you can get swallowed by the work a lot of time. But having that impetus to have that kind of point of like, you say, reflection, and you know, actually understanding your growth and your position within the practice, and where you can go sort of thing is kind of super important.
This, this relationship between university education and practice, and you spoke earlier about the kind of disconnect that often happens. And, you know, I've heard different architects refer to it as different things like the fall off the pitch, the whatever, you know, this kind of idea that you're in this one world academic in academia, and then suddenly, you fall into the real world of practice. And you're like, what this is so, you know, this is so unrecognizable from what was happening at university, and then we'll often you know, I've talked to educators, then they'll be very, and rightfully so, in some aspects. You know, we're not preparing students to become solely architects, and from the practice perspective last week to practice leaders and, and go well, you are, that is like, they're paying money to become architects like, what did they think that what do they think that they're investing? Is that clear to them, to the student, what they're, what they're paying for, and also it has an impact as well, the disconnect in terms of salaries and fees, because or apart one, you know, we're just looking recently online, who was posting this morning might have been the LSA, but sharing the pay of apart one graduate in London, and that's a very difficult salary to be to be living off. And you're part of the equation here as well. You now I've got businesses that need to, I need to invest a lot to train, say, a part one. And then you've got businesses who hire part one's thinking. Now this is on the business's fault, because they actually need a more experienced senior architect and they're trying to be cheap, and then they hire part one, and Part One can't do 90% of the things that they they want. So there's clearly a sort of, you know, a disconnect here. How do you see it being strengthened or being improved? And what are some of the kind of more structural issues at play?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, everything you've said is completely correct. And, you know, I can I can completely see it from both sides because as I said, I had an incredible time at university and I was one of those people that really engaged with it and That way of thinking and the theory and all of these things, and I completely see the validity of, you know, opening your eyes up to the concept of design and how you design things and not not just producing people that do things in one way. And you know, I completely appreciate and I agree with that, but at the same time, like you say, you know, part one is coming out require a lot of effort from the practices and, and like you say the salaries reflect that which is, which is incredibly difficult, because, you know, everyone thinks that architects and a lot of money and they can do but also you coming into a field which people will struggle in, I think, ultimately, the, the way I kind of see the thing progressing. I mean, particularly the LSA and apprenticeships are we've had students for the last, I think five years at the LSA, which I think is an incredibly impressive and forward thinking school, and particularly now with Neil shisha at the front of it sort of thing. The the idea of combining, you know, practice and university, literally, to try and solve some of those problems is, is, for me, a progressive thing. And, you know, looking at the apprenticeship model, again, you know, we've we've, we've had lots of conversations with the London universities, and with Oxford and Cambridge about their apprenticeship schemes. And, you know, we've moved forward with Oxford Brookes for our apprenticeship. And that is, you know, for the for the level of seven apprenticeship is four years, to become an architect from from being a part one. So obviously, it's a longer period, but the the fees are covered by our apprenticeship Levy, which the practice pays into anyway. And the student is paid full time salary, working four days a week, in practice, and one day remotely at university with, I think, three monthly kind of intensives. So, you know, I can think back to when I did my, my top part to experience the amount I was learning on the ground, sort of thing, just, like you say, communicating with clients communicating between with design team members, and you know, just the whole different series of skills, that sort of thing. So being able to grow that on one side, while still kind of holding on to that kind of design, theoretical, kind of important, kind of big questions sort of thing feels, to me, you know, a very positive thing. And I think I think those are really kind of key good examples of that. But I do struggle with it, because I don't necessarily think that's always going to be the answer. You know, I think I think there's definitely a place for apprenticeships, and definitely a place for model models, like the LSAT, but, you know, I can think back when I did my part to, you know, fully throwing yourself into university is kind of does make you think differently, it does bring out something that you don't necessarily get if you were just coming in practice, you know, I think the last thing we kind of want is to produce a whole group of architects which can't think, you know, outside of, you know, legislation or outside of the box, if you will. So it's, I think it's something that no one's ever quite got the, the answers to? Yeah,
well, it's, it's very interesting, because I mean, there's there is, you know, I'll often be very critical of the university and the kind of education system, but I don't want that to undermine, like, again, I had a very similar experience to you, I was at the Butler and very kind of out there thinking school. And it changed the way that I would thought and it actually allowed me in many ways to break out of doing, you know, having a traditional architectural career if you like, because I was kind of encouraged to, to think differently. And there's a, and we're also starting to see, you know, a lot of value in architectural thinking and strategic thought and way of viewing the world that gets picked up in other industries, and you can get renumerated incredibly healthy, you know, I was just chatting to somebody just before this conversation about the stuff that Google's doing in terms of master planning, and, you know, live cities and, and, you know, it's kind of software and data driven, urban master planning, and, you know, go and work there and how to integrate search engines and AI into the actual fabric of the city. And it's, you know, that's, that's the kind of domain we end up talking about at university. And then someone like Google, they're not hiring, you know, just architects. They're hiring all sorts of different disciplines. And so, the architectural kind of framework of education can be very valuable in these other new new fields. The architecture industry itself is a little bit different. And I wonder how like it let's say, apprenticeships become much more of a popular thing? How would you anticipate a business would be able to educate an individual InDesign? And how can a business kind of facilitate that out of the box type of thinking or create that same safe environment that university creates?
Yeah, I think I think that's a real, that's a real potential issue with all of this, because it's, I think university gives you time and space to kind of think like that, you know, that with, with, with business and practice, you know, everything is it needs to be done yesterday, and, you know, the workloads and stuff don't a lot of the time allow for, you know, even even, you know, things we need to be doing on the side or business management or working in the business sort of thing, you know, so it's a real struggle even to do that. So, you know, I guess it's with with structure, and with putting this this time aside to do certain things, you know, for example, you know, we have to, as part of my mentoring thing with the level seven apprenticeship, you know, we have to give time to, you know, structure time to sit down and go through, you know, not only the students experience from a practice point of view, from a university point of view, and the sort of pastoral care type thing is, think unless you make time for these things, they're not going to happen, I think it does sort of raise it raise an interesting question of using the student as a sort of r&d type thing. So that's something we've had in our sort of conversations with Oxford Brookes is that they want the student to be there sort of project work to be have a feedback loop back into practice sort of things. So the things that the practice is kind of exploring, are sort of mutually beneficial for the student and the practice of things. So I think you can imagine kind of a position where, you know, for example, you know, I've had these conversations with our students about our building in Brixton. So, you know, the department stores and existing historic building has been kind of carefully, you know, reused in different ways and things taken away things brought in, you know, taking something that's, you know, sort of forgotten about in the city and bringing life back into it involving the community. So, you know, we were having conversations with, you know, whether her project could be, you know, of a similar vein, and using that as a kind of research project to kind of, you know, plug back in into our practice. So, I think you would have to imagine a future if apprenticeships do become more prevalent of, of, you know, things that do have an equal weighting sort of thing. But I completely agree with you in terms of the big picture thing, because that is the kind of the joy of university is making you think, in that big picture way. And and particularly, you know, I think one of the big problems in architecture, is that sort of fee question. And, you know, the bringing down of fees and race to the bottom and all these sorts of bits and pieces is, without us thinking differently. Yeah, I think I think that's thinking and it's kind of fixed way is kind of one of the problems that's kind of brought us to this position. So, you know, having that big picture thinking is kind of what we need right now.
Absolutely. So it's interesting, then we can start to pick up on the question of fees. And this is something again, lots of young architects, and I imagine that university, perhaps were a little bit incubated from architects the realities of an architectural salary. And you're living life as a student, which is normally pretty streamlined, if you like, economically. So any kind of pay afterwards, you know, seems like a luxury and then you realize, right, it's not, it's not a lot of pay. And it's kind of sometimes the growth trajectory can look quite nice. Not that exciting, if you like, how do how do you educate or kind of open up the conversation with practicing architects about the business side of the practice? And like how money is working in the business? And how, and how and how that kind of fees relate back to salaries?
Yeah, sure. I think so much of it comes from transparency, you know, the whole issue. You know, like, we say, we go to university, and then we go to get a job and we're so focused on getting a job, we then realized, oh, you know, what, we're going to get paid sort of thing. So, like you say, it is kind of a kind of surprise and having that sort of disconnect. So, you know, one end, you know, just just sort of clearly, you know, job adverts telling you what the salaries are which which Pete, which is incredibly painful, and people seem to be gradually coming around to the idea of recently but still not everyone to, you know, again, educating people within practice to understand what the impact of Their time is on, on salaries on productivity on profitability. You know, I think I think so much of it is, within our sort of management structures, that element is behind closed doors, whether it's intentional or not, you know, because people are so focused in doing the project work. And I think a lot of time, people keep that sort of level of information away from the General Staff, because they don't, they either want them to focus on what they're doing, or they don't think they're kind of interested or kind of, you know, the, not part of that conversation. And I think for me, you know, giving people agency and people education, whatever their age, you know, in practice, from part one to, you know, senior level, having that sort of conversation of, what does this line on this page mean? What does, you know, my time mean, in relation to, you know, the fee, which, in turn, will, in the end of the day, you know, relate to profitability, and my salary sort of thing. So, I think, you know, education, and, and transparency can only be a good thing, and all of those, but again, it takes time, effort, and willing from, you know, practice owners and leaders and management level people to communicate it, you know, we will fill out, fill out our timesheets, but, you know, for a lot of people, it's kind of, it's a pain in the ass, and, you know, we'll just make it up. And, you know, we have conversations internally about how important that is, because it then makes people management level people understand how long a job takes and how profitable and how productivity and all these things relate to things. And, you know, having that, again, that sort of disconnect between management level and staff level and communication, I think, again, it's that kind of key thing. So
how do you how do you broach a conversation with either people that you're engaging with on social media, or even team members? When they ask, you know, I want to get paid more? How do I how do we do this? How do I how do I earn more as an architect? What kind of how do you find somebody with that question? Or? Or how is it structured?
No, so So, I think a lot of it is we always talk about online, and everything about architects communicating their value. And, you know, that's, that's seen as a super important thing, to, from architects to clients, you know, everyone talks about that, you know, everyone's got a misconception about what architects do, what value we provide, things like that, I like to think about it as you know, take that and put it internal, you know, internalize it, what is the value I'm doing? What is the value I'm providing? How am I seen as an employee, or, you know, whatever position I am within the, within the chain, how do I add value to this process, whether it's through skills, and or efficiency or things like that. So, you know, for example, in my own experience, sort of thing, I've always been very keen on adding my value to the practice as a whole. So, you know, I, you know, I think I'm pretty good at my job. And, you know, I've made my way up the chain within the practice, but I've always been very keen in doing sort of extracurricular things within the practice. So running this education side, running the sustainability side of things. And it's, I think, you know, that as a kind of methodology of showing, you're willing, so not only are you doing your job, and you're doing well at it, but you're also showing that you're investing your time and effort into the practice, and you care about it as something you care about other staff, you know, I think, I think something like that shows so much of your value as a person being a decent human being, and showing that you care about something, and you're willing to commit to it. But also communicates a lot about, you know, your, your sort of value as an architect. So, you know, I think some people, you know, talk about specializing in different areas, or, you know, becoming incredibly efficient with different processes, you know, you get lots of people that are very, into technology and things, you know, we have lots of people that are very passionate, Revit users and promote themselves on how much they can, you know, model in an hour sort of thing and, you know, sort of efficient efficiency questions, but I think, I mean, the other the other aspect of that is, is if, if younger architects want to progress in their practices, I think a lot of it comes down to management. And you will you see people through time that are clear, communicators, clear people, people, people, you know, but I mean, like, kind of people that can understand a team understand management level things, can communicate things clearly and can really kind of, you know, create sort of close relationships with their colleagues and stuff. And I think I think that sort of value really shows that as well, particularly in larger practices where you have hierarchical structures where people are looking to progress. You know, I think that's kind of a key thing is, I mean, it's, it doesn't come naturally to a lot of people. So I think a lot of the time, if you're looking to progress in that way, showing those sort of leadership skills, or again, you know, promoting value that's kind of above your position of everyday architect sort of thing.
And kind of at the associate director level director level, in the practice, do you actively sit down and identify people who are kind of exhibiting those kinds of attributes and qualities? Or? Yeah, completely?
I think it is a clear thing, I think, I think when you see something in somebody, you know, I think half of it is people that get on with things, you know, I mean, there's, there's people that are clearly capable and clearly capable of taking charge of something and aren't just floating along sort of thing, that they're people that, you know, are able to move things forward and able to solve problems. And it's that thing of, you know, there's, there's no kind of stupid questions in anything, you know, you want people to ask questions, but you also want people to take initiative and show leadership qualities. And, you know, when people do that, it is it's clear. And I think I think there is that kind of balance of, you know, I think I think you can always see when people are very passionate, so about self promoting, but don't have the things to back it up. And I think, naturally, I'm a sort of quiet sort of milder person, and there are people around you that are probably louder, and you know, better at talking themselves up and stuff. But I think when you're doing a good job, it's very clear to your bosses, you know, I think that there is a kind of a key thing in that is your ability, but, you know, I think it's important to kind of, again, have that kind of self reflective thing. You know, if I'm, if I'm making, if I'm making an effort to progress in my career, you know, I want to be leading that I want to be taking charge of that, and I wrote, I wrote about this on social media quite a lot is, the idea of no one else is going to do it for you, you have to kind of take charge of that thing. And you know, create those touch points with your, your your management structure and create those kinds of moments that you are kind of guiding them, helping them to do what you want them to do sort of thing, as, as you do with your clients as you do with your design team do we have to kind of get people to believe in us in all of our thing. You know, if I'm a, I'm an architect's asking your client to believe in my design, you know, it's the same thing as I'm an architect asking my manager to believe in me and to push me forward sort of thing. It's about getting people on board and kind of, you know, taking them on the journey and believing, I suppose, I
love this, this is this is often used the word, there's entrepreneurial, and then there's intrapreneurial. And what you're describing kind of falls into this idea of being intrapreneurial, which is, you do need to market and sell yourself within an organization, you need to be able to take leadership and be proactive, and also set a kind of vision and a mission, if you like, for your own career and where you want to go and kind of have a look at well, how can I be in the same way that you would or the business? You're kind of asking where can I provide extra value, and be renumerated for it, and kind of really, you know, really take take control of it. And it's amazing, when you do start doing that? How many resources suddenly emerge and how willing people are actually to help. But otherwise, it becomes it becomes very difficult. It's a it's a kind of, you have to you have to kind of walk into it if you like you have to take the initiative. Sure. It in terms of, say people winning jobs or or getting hired, I know you've you've done quite a few interesting posts around around actually getting hired. And in your position at Squires. I imagine that you guys are hiring quite a lot. And you're quite actively involved in seeing hundreds of CVS. And do you know which ones which ones work, which ones don't work? What kind of advice would you give people who are kind of entering into the workforce or even looking at changing, changing offices or practices, what sorts of things do you see that don't work? And what sorts of things really stand out for you?
Yeah, sure. Yeah, you're right. We do see lots of CDs, and we, you know, we're going through a proper sort of hiring thing at the moment. And I think sometimes people have to kind of realized, particularly if the, you know, applying to larger practices is that it's a time pressured thing. And a lot of the time when practices are hiring, it's on a short timescale, and it's on a it's a reactionary thing. You know, I think, you know, when I was when I was doing my part one, the practice I joined it was, you know, the part one left, they had a new part one, the part one left, they had a new part, one sort of thing, you know, it was it was kind of that Bring the door of, yeah, season basically, yeah, completely. So, you know, we would have our token part one for the for the year, and then we get another one sort of thing. And, you know, particularly in the, in my experience of, you know, large, you know, London based practices, the the hiring process, a lot of the time happens, because the jobs come in, you know, we need to assemble a team, you know, we don't have the resource in house, we need to find that team, you know, I speak a lot about, you know, the important skills that people need, you know, to exhibit and, you know, within architecture, you know, and I think a lot of the time when it, I mean, what, okay, let's take this into stages, you know, there's the initial thing of finding people, so, you know, we get CVS portfolios through the door, you know, they all go into one big folder, and then, you know, when we need somebody, we look in that folder with, you know, this data on, and we will read them. So, there's a very quick process of saying, you know, understanding a CV, reviewing it from sort of first instinct sort of thing. So, for me, formatting and clarity are, you know, so important in, you know, kind of that first impression, sort of thing. So, you know, you think about that level of information you are being judged on, you know, one piece of paper that says, This is my name, and this is what I've done, and another few pages, which has got some examples of your work, you know, it's an incredibly reduced level of information for you to be you as this complex, interesting person to be judged on. So it's so important to get that kind of, I guess, I guess, get get your message across. And so much comes in, in terms of the sort of clarity of what you've put out there, you know, I have a real thing about sort of formatting and whitespace, and clarity of information sort of thing. And, and that's how you can be judged on that sort of instant level. Because, again, you know, you're looking at hundreds of CVS, you're looking at hundreds of people sort of thing. So there's that sort of instantaneous thing. So that's kind of one level. But then, you know, in interviews, obviously, it's a joy to kind of talk to people and to understand, you know, their projects, and particularly when you're hiring part ones, or part twos, you know, so much of our conversation is about the university projects, because, you know, we're, we're all frustrated architects with our day to day issues of, you know, the client is not paying or, you know, this thing, not fitting in a riser sort of thing, and they're talking about, you know, like you say, like, these these big picture things. So, there's so much joy in, you know, I get lost in interviews, because, you know, we're, we're kind of looking into the imaginary worlds and incredibly interesting things. And, I mean, yeah, there's a, there's a kind of base level of, you know, have they used any of the software before? And have they done this and have done that, but, I mean, for me, it's so much about personalities, so much about, you know, understanding them as a person understanding that there, you can get on with them, you know, my, my, my old boss, mentor, used to be like, you know, most of the time interviews, just checking that they're all right, as a person, sort of, you know, I mean, like, kind of, you can, they can be in your team, because that's what I mean, ultimately, you know, when you're hiring, you're hiring someone for your team that, you know, you're gonna work on whatever project it is, you know, for a number of years. And, you know, you're gonna go through highs and lows, and, you know, through intense periods and quiet periods, and, you know, I think, showing those sort of key personal skills of empathy and understanding and communication, yeah, I always bang on about communication architecture, and whether that's verbal communication, visual communication, you know, I'm super passionate about hand drawing, and the simplicity of communication in that way of just being able to, you know, take whatever's in your head, and put it on the page sort of thing to clearly communicate something. So, you know, so much of what we look for, and what I personally look for, and I think the key skill of architecture is about communication. So, yeah, I think there's that kind of the instant thing of, you know, the the boring stuff of graphics and how things put together and, you know, refinement things. And then there's that kind of personality science,
in terms of kind of knowing when a practice is ready to hire, because as you as you say, it is for most practices, it is a very reactive thing. And if I think back on all the jobs I've ever had in architecture, it's very hard. I mean, I've had interviews from sending off CVS, but generally it's always been through someone I know I've known, or that that kind of that kind of network, if you like and being able to you hear something, and then you kind of jump at it. How important do you think that is for most people to actually have a network in, you know, in the professional in the industry to help them find work and how do you go about how do you go about building a network?
Yeah, I think that's I think that's hugely important and it just takes the edge off. It gets you You pass the sort of gatekeeping thing of, you know, when you when you think about most times when you when you apply for a job, it's either for an advert, so it's a particular, you know, position, or a speculative thing, if it's a speculative thing, you're going to info at that, and probably ending up in the spam filter. And, you know, maybe you'll emerge from there one day. So getting past that sort of gatekeeping thing through your network is super important. I, you know, it was bang on about this online and things about students in particular building some sort of, you know, personality online and network before they become necessary sort of thing, you know, talking about yourself talking about your work, talking about the things you're interested in it, it kind of, it creates something before, you know, you emerge out of uni uni and go, Oh, crap, I need to find a job. You know, I'm very big on Instagram and LinkedIn. And, you know, I've lots of people message me on LinkedIn and say, oh, you know, something interesting, obese investor, and by the way, are you hiring sort of thing, and it just it just, you know, because we have that connection, because we've had that conversation, you know, it opens the door to, you know, are there any places and, you know, they get a shoo in, in that way. And you think about, you know, having your network having something like that to bolster your application process is, is super key. So, you know, I always, I always tell students to, you know, the minute you get to architecture school, start talking about, you know, what you're doing, and clearly communicate the things you're interested in, you know, be known for something, you know, talk about something in particular, you know, I think they're the kind of strongest ones is when people has a, you know, people have a particular drive, you know, I mentored a student, which had a particular interest in, in the reuse of materials from, you know, from waylaid objects to reusing them in architectural ways, sort of thing. And, you know, he started, you know, the idea was that he would start posting online about that, and be known for that as a thing. And then, you know, apply to those practices, which were, that was particularly pertinent and interesting, and you're almost kind of building your portfolio as you go, sort of thing rather than, again, that sort of reactionary thing of, you know, just going oh, shit, I need to, you know, think about a job now, you know, it's, there's so much to your network. And, you know, I think using myself as an example, you know, just putting yourself out there, opens up so many things, you know, before I started posting online, I never thought I'd, you know, doing all these nice podcasts and, you know, talking about all these interesting things and stuff. And, I mean, really, it's just by just by checking yourself out there and talking and people kind of hearing it and listening, I'm no different than anybody else. And, you know, I can, I can continue doing my day job and enjoying that, or I can kind of do something else and get a little bit out else out of it. Absolutely.
I mean, I mean, I'm totally with you on that about the kind of the power of utilizing social media platforms and all of the all of the ways and tools that we have to be able to broadcast ideas and kind of create dialogue and be visible. Like it's you know, you can you can talk about whatever it is that you want to talk about, you can create a mission, a movement, you can create communities, you can create tribes, you can create, you know, a kind of group, new group of friends, by being by allowing yourself to be visible, if you want to talk on video and speak great if you want to write great if you want to draw great. There's, there's ways of kind of becoming visible, that open up opportunities that you can't even possibly have foreseen or or imagined. This podcast itself has opened up so many extraordinary things. And it's just been, you know, Eric and I sitting in our little rooms talking to people, and it kind of just finds its way, way around the world. And it interestingly, what you're talking about, of people connecting with you on say something like LinkedIn. And I think that's a really good strategy for people who, when they're looking for work, just to start these kinds of relationships with people who might be hiring in the future. What's, what's a good way of doing that, versus a bad way of doing that?
There's definitely backwards and I think, I think when I when I first started using LinkedIn, when I was back at uni, which was, what 15 years ago, maybe less as a part one, it was it was the realms of you know, your your window salesman or your cladding salesman sending you a message saying, Can I sell you this kind of sell you that and can I come in for a CPD? You know, no, no warm me up? No, buy me dinner and just going straight in sort of thing. So I think that's the that's the worst way is, you know, cold messaging No, you know, sort of dialogue, I think I think the best way is, is is kind of, kind of think about it as you would people, you know, you don't just approach, you know, you wouldn't just approach someone on the street, grab them and say, buy this from me, you know, it's about creating a human connection. And it's, I think it's probably that difficult thing of, because it's that fit, you know, you're not, you're physically disconnected from someone, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a name with a box and a line. And, you know, if you say something, who cares sort of thing, but I think the point is that you need to see past that and see that there's all people behind this thing. And it's one of those things in businesses that, you know, there was just saying, you know, we buy things from people, people, you know, businesses, people at the end of the day, and creating a connection, that's kind of memorable, and something you nurture sort of thing is super important, you know, it's not just about going in for the kill, it's about, you know, creating something, creating yourself, you know, showing how you want to be online, how you present yourself, how people talk about your authenticity, and things like that. But also, when you're creating connection you can be, you can be sort of determined about it, like I was talking about earlier, you know, when you're, you're wanting to progress in a, in a, in a practice, you're, you're still a person, you're still doing your job, but you're you're thinking about, you know, you're playing chess, three steps in advance sort of thing, you know, similar similar process, you know, you're thinking about who are the important people, I need to find talk to create connections with, you know, within the industry within, outside of the industry, you know, within client bodies, within, you know, design team members sort of thing. But, you know, warming people up through connection, commenting on their stuff, you know, not just posting something and expecting loads of comments, you know, you need to engage with other people. I mean, ultimately, you know, creating conversations, not being afraid to give someone a call, or you know, jump on a video call sort of thing. There's lots of different ways to do it. And it's, I think it's just about creating that kind of human connection, understanding people, and also kind of being honest and open and not being a dick, there's a big thing about that of, you know, just being promoting it, you know, showing yourself as a human as well, it's not just about the business, it's not just about the wins. And I think that's one of the kind of the things we all kind of need to learn a little bit more about. And I think that's one of our kind of architectural failings is that kind of, you know, we only talk to, you know, we're only trying to impress other architects, we have these impenetrable websites, we have this impenetrable language sort of thing, we just post images of these beautiful things when they're nice and finished, you know, all of all of that stuff of nice to go over here. And it's all about kind of, you know, showing behind the scenes showing, you know, the bits they don't want you to see, teaching people about the process, and, you know, all of the kind of interesting, weird, unknown, you know, human side of things, which is hopefully the way things are trying to move and, you know, the stuff that I find the most engaging. And it's about being people, I suppose,
it's, it's really interesting, I think, you know, how easy it actually is to engage with somebody online. And I have a lot of students and younger architects reaching out and, and when somebody's very thoughtful with the way that they get in contact with me, I'll jump on a call, always do the 1515 minutes, let's have a quick chat. How can I help? What are you doing? And you know, and then other times, they're really poor examples of people just going straight in, like I say, straighten for a kill straight and for the request, please hire me. I want this, this, this and this and this. And you're like, Well, okay, that's really like imagine, yeah, imagine doing that face to face with somebody. It's just, it's really kind of comes across as very demanding. And, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't communicate the right things. Whereas somebody's you know, I'm always a sucker for someone who's listened to a couple of podcasts and then been thoughtful with the response. And they've, they've taken time, and they go, I was, I really enjoyed this conversation, you had the sound so and I've actually been doing this kind of stuff in my own work. You know, Would you be open for chatting with me for 15 minutes? And it's like, yeah, absolutely. And I think the architecture profession is, you know, in general, like, there's a lot of love and care, for wanting to mentor the next generation and to and to bring people up, and that's something I really enjoy about still being involved with the architecture profession is that there is that kind of warmth, and, you know, for the most part, a desire to want to perpetuate the profession and to look after people who are who are entering into it. And I think that younger architects shouldn't be afraid of approaching whoever they want to approach. Yeah, sometimes you're gonna get pushback, and sometimes you're probably going to make a mistake with how you do it. But Be persistent. Keep that keep keep going and like and and learn because there's so many you can advance a career so rapidly with aligning yourself with mentors or developing these sorts of relationships.
Yeah, I think that's super important. I think I think the whole mentoring thing is incredibly an architecture because, like I said, so much of my career has been built on, you know, basically just people doing a little bit extra going the extra mile being human. And, you know, having a bit of empathy and understanding, you know, this person is interested wants to progress is asking these questions, and I just need to give them the time. And that's, I mean, that's why I do it, you know, I had lots of people help me out. And that's basically why, you know, I do it, and hopefully, people who I mentor will do it, for them sort of thing, you know, we all kind of understand the process, we all understand, you know, some of the problems that we face as architects and the industry and the education thing, and, like you say, so many people are willing to give their time and effort and stuff like that to kind of nurture, you know, is kind of a key thing. I mean, you know, there are there are people that don't there are practices that were that is less prevalent, and there are practices where, you know, there are issues and and universities weather issues, and you know, lots of it's been spoken about, but I think on the whole it's people trying to help other people, you know, it's key. Absolutely.
Well, I think that's the perfect place to conclude the conversation. Chris, thank you so much for sharing your, your insights and your specs, your your expertise, and just, you know, kind of real compassion and care and contribution for the next generation of architects, and professionals. Thank you.
Brilliant, thank you so much for having me.
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