everyone and welcome to another episode of all the things ADHD.
Well, both things ADHD
like that.
Mix it up. Let me go I know
I know. Yeah. Um, what are your co hosts Lee Skallerup Bessette, also known as ready writing on Twitter,
and I am the other co host said co host correctly this week. Amy hope Morrison known as did you want? On Twitter? On the Twitter's on the Twitter's
and on the instance?
On the instance? Yeah, it really does. It's a real name only in the meta. Yeah. Of God.
Has the local TV stations called you yet to comment on why
yes, we I got a news interview yesterday morning. And I have a radio interview for syndication tomorrow. So yes, there I need Facebook to stop because like, dear Mark Zuckerberg, it's my busy period. As an instructor, please stop ruining the world because people keep calling me every time you do something stupid. Could you hold off on stupids until the new year? Sincerely yours? Me? Yeah, seriously. Um, so speaking
of speaking of that, like 10, gently, but in an ADHD kind of way. What we're going to talk about today is something that I think not just people with ADHD and who are neurodivergent experience, but I think we experience it in a way that is unique and perhaps amplified, given just how we view the world and how we process. So I was calling it a publication hangover. So I, I published something in the Chronicle of Higher Education this week, and it was sort of as as a true ADHD fashion. I was supposed to be writing something else. But I was really annoyed. I've been really I've been really on a tangent lately about mental health, quote, unquote, awareness, and just reaching out. Because it's, it's like, yeah, okay, but to what and to whom, and like, what's going to be the response to that, because there is a lack of resources. And this is not on individual mental health practitioners or, you know, but there is there, there is a short there has been a shortage even before COVID. And now that everyone is quote, unquote, reaching out. The system really is in crisis. And unless you are in crisis, you're not going to get the help that you need.
So reaching out is like a trust fall when everybody takes three steps back, as soon as you close your eyes, right? Lean backwards, and like, yeah, you can reach out all you want. But if no one is there to catch you, then yeah, you do. Yeah.
Yeah, the somebody on Twitter, I'd have to find it and give him credit for it. But somebody on Twitter when I was ranting about this, I've ranted about this on Twitter, on my blog. And now on CAG. I tweeted it out. And they responded, just reach out is the hopes and prayers of mental health care.
Absolutely. Right. Yeah, I send you hopes and prayers lead that when you reach Oh, you'll be able to access care.
Yeah. So, so I wrote. So I wrote a thing for Chronicle. And I didn't even think my editor would like it, I was just sort of, like, you know, we need to understand that a reaching out, we've talked about this on the blog, but not on the blog, on the podcast, that it can be difficult to access, mental health care. And just the hoops that you have to go through, right, in a period of time where you're already your executive function is at an all time low. And the last thing you want to do is be on the phone and tell your you know, story over and over and over again, but not sound too desperate. So they call the cops on you, but you know, desperate enough that they'll actually get you on a list to see somebody faster than in six months. And so, you know, to try and a how people understand that, that reaching out is is a challenge in the best of times, but in the worst of times, which we are in right now. It is outright impossible and so that we should, you know, it's you know, understand that and and, you know, the the institutions have sort of addressed this, but also for individuals to kind of say, you know, it is worth it to get help but you know, we are in crisis right now and this is not helping and, and apparently resonated because I've never had anything get turned around so quickly to appear and Chronicle of Higher Education. That's
amazing. Yeah, turn your rant into $300. And yeah, platform
we Yeah. That nobody seemed to have wrapped,
right. Oh, boy. Right. It was very active on Twitter.
Yeah, but it wasn't even effective on Twitter might tweet that like teased it was more popular than the piece itself.
I'll tell you why. Lee because the piece itself is behind what might as well be a paywall, which is you have to create an account, you have to create an account. Yeah, free account, but you'll have to create it and it's gonna have a password, and we're gonna send you an email, you're gonna have to verify something. No, I'm not I haven't read it. Lee, and I'm not gonna lie. Sorry, guys go on creating an account. No. So. So even these I would say, oh, barrier alert, barrier alert. Whoo. Yeah. Make people. This is like my thing I'm going to rant about is you make people create an account, even if it's a free account to access something that normally they should just be able to do without giving you their name and their email address and verifying that they are who they say they are. And people are not going to do it. Especially neurodivergent. People are going to give up. Yes. Yeah, sure. Your words are brilliant. And everyone wanted to read them but they just moped on out of the you must log in to access Yes, article.
Yeah. But it but it's one of those like, I was Brett, you know, I sort of wrote it very quickly. In a flurry the way I tend to do with some of my, I don't want to say my best stuff, but some of my really good stuff. That tends to be how it's done. It gets turned around really fast. And then I'm like bracing myself, right? Because I've made myself really vulnerable in this and I've been open. I have a podcast, I have a blog. I've all this kind of stuff that I talked about my mental health struggles over the past. As as I found out when I wrote this piece, she's like, when did this happened? And I'm like, oh, like a decade ago when my daughter was like one she's like, Isn't your daughter 14 I'm like, more than a decade ago.
And I love that she just knows how old your daughter is. Right? Because like I always tell people that constantly
right? Yeah, cuz cuz cuz you get I have a 14 year old daughter like, oh,
oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, it gets better.
No, I know. I know. So I so I'm so I'm bracing myself, right. I've written this very vulnerable piece that is going to appear on CAG, which is a whole other level of public when you're an academic. Yeah, right. And I also know that that like, even though they've closed the comments, I know that people on CAG can be how can I put this on assholes?
It's the worst kind of pedantry. It's like, the underbelly of the proper sorry, it comes out to be like, I don't think that stock image goes well with this piece. And in fact, you missed
more typos. Yeah. Oh, my god, stop. So. So I'm, like, bracing myself. Right. And, and I'm sort of, but I'm also really excited. I'm so happy. I am happy that this is getting published in in in CAG. And then it's going to get some some eyeballs on it. And it's of exposure, because I think it really is an important topic that is under discussed. You know, and then and then, of course, you know, it's a search on Twitter, and the only person who's tweeting it is like me, and I'm like, oh, okay, um, and then, you know, I get almost no response. So that's not that I didn't get any response at all. I actually did have like, a few people, one person DM me and say thank you very much. And those, but it was just kind of like, I was like, deflated, right? Like up here. Like not even just excited but exactly excited and stressed and like, oh, my gosh, what's going to be the blowback, or maybe this will have actually have a positive impact? I don't know. And so I don't know, the ADHD brain just sort of builds and builds and builds and builds and builds, and then it just sort of like
well, like I know, you and I have talked about rejection sensitive dysphoria before. Right? And I don't think that's this, right. So this is about like, you're anticipating that there might be a blowback because it's the internet and you're an academic, and you're talking about mental health, and you're in like, it CAG which draws a lot of eyeballs generally. So a bit nervous about this. And rightly so that's just experience, we'll show you that. But I think what you're describing is, is something different. It's a different kind of adrenaline response, right? That that would become very excited about things as people tend to do. And then after the event happens, like the publication happens, and nothing further happens after that there's this kind of letdown, right, like, like the way that once when I was a child, I was at my grandparents cottage, and unbeknownst to me, Well, I'll tell you what happened. This is how I experienced it was after lunch, and it was the middle of July it was very hot. It's this log cabin, like a literal log cabin just like you're picturing like Lincoln logs out. Yep. And obviously it's got no air conditioning and but all the curtains are closed to keep the heat out so it's quite dark in the kitchen and I come in through the front door. I'm carrying a tray in front of me with like all the fixings for the hot dogs we had for lunch, right to bring everything back in from the outdoor table. And I'm walking towards the sink to put the tray down and then I fell down a six foot hole. Boom. Yes, so Lee is making a face of like her face just got closer to the camera and her eyes got big and her mouth fell open a bit like you did whatnot. Yes, exactly. That was my experience. I was walking. I was in between the front door and the kitchen sink. And along the way to the kitchen sink a path I've walked and I mean a path. I mean, the kitchen floor, right? Yeah. And I fell down a six foot hole, which I didn't know was there, obviously, I guess, show up. Well, I mean, here's the thing. There was a sump pump, which is accessed by a trapdoor in the floor and the trap door. It was normally covered by a scatter rug. Okay, so I had never seen the outlines of the trap door. I'm not, you know, wise to the necessities of certain types of implements of plumbing in oil based cottage systems. I was very young is not the type of thing I think about. I mean, there's a reason I think about it. Now it's because I'm always looking for holes, I might accidentally fall into rice,
but I felt good see that as a formative sort of event. I fell
straight down, I fell straight down. The hole was taller than me like miraculously I hit it in such a way that because I didn't even know that I was going to be falling. I went straight down. Like I didn't throw my arms. I didn't lean forward and you're just like, Whoa, I just like went right in a hole. Like I can imagine. Like my sister says, I legitimately disappeared because she was behind me about four paces, and I was there and then I was not there. She said it was the funniest, most terrifying thing she'd ever witnessed. I mean, remember, I pushed her off a dock once we were toasting with twirling sticks. So like, this was a pretty evenly matched kind of Yeah, relationship. So right, it's great, gentle, I fell straight down the hole didn't get a scratch on me because I fell straight down, still holding the tray, but the covered in ketchup and mustard and relish at this point. And I dropped the tray. And I don't know what happened next leap. But I jumped out of the hole. The ladder was not in the hole anymore. My puppy had taken the ladder up with him, I jumped li six feet out of the hole, right? That's an adrenaline response. I jumped out of the fucking hole, right? And I said to my sister, don't worry. It's not blood. It's catch up. And then I fainted. Right. So. So what's what's happening there is that in light of what is perceived to be a dangerous event, your body is flooded with your fight or flight chemicals, your cortisol, your adrenaline, which gives you hyper focus. And in this case of super strength for me, so I like jumped out of the hole. And but then when the immediate emergency has passed, like you cannot jump out of holes like that, when you have like my strength and joints like you just don't write. So that's yeah, sustainable. And so that adrenaline quickly leaves your body so that you do not attempt any further feats of strength in this way. And this happens to all kinds of people, once the adrenaline goes, you're just so exhausted, you've never been this tired in your entire life. And if you're me, you think and since we know that, that neurodivergent people, ADHD people in particular, we have a sort of deficit of some types of neurotransmitters, right, and an over sensitivity to some types of neurological chemicals. So we do tend to have the wild swings, right? So we get like when the adrenaline hits, it hits harder for us, and it's for other people. And then when the adrenaline crashes, it crashes harder for us than for other people. Like you have to think about ADHD brains, like some of us do cocaine to relax, right? Like there's all these anecdotal reports of like,
this is just Just so we're clear,
we're not saying you should do or not recommended. Don't write these are like these paradoxical reactions, like people will say, like, I never got the point of cocaine, like everybody got all hopped up. And it just made me like really calm, right? Or like people's paradoxical reactions to caffeine. So I think like many things, we have a big event, like you're going to get married, or you're going on vacation, or you're starting a new job, or you're publishing something in the Chronicle of Higher Education, where you think there might be blowback. What's going to happen first is that you're probably going to get more keyed up about it, than other people might do if you have an ADHD brain with our weird chemical reactions. And then what's going to happen afterwards, you're going to crash, probably harder from that adrenaline rush. But does that feel like that's what happened to you?
Yeah, I definitely think that that's what happened is and I'm thinking about that, that dopamine, right, like that dopamine rush, and that's what we, we have a deficit of it. And so you sort of in a weird way, right? You're almost hoping for it so that that dopamine will keep going. Right? Like if there's if there's any sort of reaction or reception it'll keep feeding that dopamine, right? Because it'll either stress me out or make me really happy or make me really excited just like that, it'll still feed an extreme emotion like the worst thing that can happen is is nothing or very little, because then that the stimulus is stimulant is gone, or the stimulus is gone. And then it's just like, you know, you almost in a in a really unhealthy way. Yeah, you know, I mean, do you sit down you're like, I maybe somebody will be an asshole about it, and then I'll get really angry and stressed out, and that'll like, give me that hidden for a little while longer. Well, yeah,
I mean, I produce my best When I'm like, angry about something often right like, and my husband just broke his 5k record the other day, he ran five kilometers in 23 minutes and 23 seconds, which is oh my god so fast for like a 48 year old dude. And and he said, well, the the key was I ran angry. And I was like, I don't feel like that's a sustainable strategy. Like if you're running because you enjoy and you're running to get healthy like I don't think enraging yourself so that you run so fast, you don't know how hurt you are. It's like maybe not sustainable. And I know that me too, I have like, run some of my fastest runs when I've been incredibly upset about things because I'm flooded with these stress hormones, right. And it makes me impervious to pain. And it gives me a sort of unnatural jolt of energy. That's what it does. And this is one of the reasons that little boys tend to get flagged for ADHD assessments is because they are under stimulated and they seek out risks, right? To boost their own panic responses to stuff like they'll jump off the roof of the garage, or there'll be like, what if I took the car out of park, right and put it into neutral? What does this button do? Right? Because they, they don't have a sort of? Well, they have impulse control issues, for starters. But second, like the reason that they are indulging these impulses, is because they're under stimulated, right. And they need that jolt of fear, right to make life worth living. And I think even those of us who are not prone to hyperactivity, know that like in our sort of pre medicated times, our pre diagnosed time, we would sort of strategize like I do my best work at the last minute, right, which we've talked about before. And that's about making yourself so scared of the consequence that you are suddenly able to get like what you would get if you're getting chased by a bear tunnel vision, right? And a remarkable focus on the task that's directly in front of you and imprint, energy gain, energy and an artificial jolt of energy. Right, Damn the torpedoes. You don't feel pain when you're in that, like, you don't get tired. Like you can pull an all nighter suddenly that you couldn't do the day before? Because you weren't panicked enough, right. But yeah, and like, I think we've talked a little bit on the podcast before about how like, that's not really a sustainable life strategy. Like it's very hard to leave things to the last minute and always be confident, like at a certain point, the anxiety you feel about leaving it to the last minute is going to outweigh the benefits you get from leaving it to the last minute, right. But the thing that we haven't talked about, very much, I think is what happens when you finished thing. Yeah, exactly. And it in, and then you crash, like what does that feel like to you?
I'm just, I'm, well, I'm tired. You said like that exhaustion. I'm just I'm gonna like physically tired. mentally exhausted as well. Right? Like I have other things and like in my mind, because again, I get in this is a an ADHD thing to write, I was supposed to write a different column for CAG. And I wrote this one instead. Because this has been what's on my brain, right? Like this has been then like, like I said, I've been on Twitter about this. I wrote about it on my own blog. And now I was like, and then we're gonna write for it about CAG. Because I just, and often what will happen, and this has been a strategy, not necessarily Did you see it, but I often are like, Alright, I have to write this thing. But really, my brain only wants to write this other thing. So I'm going to write this other thing, get it out of my system, and then clear that space and feel like good about that. And usually, it's not a usually it's not a pressure situation. Usually, it's like, I'll write it on my blog, and it'll be fine. Or I'll write journal it or, you know, something like that.
Yeah, I used to do that, too. I used to, but I used to try to suppress it and be like, like, for example, I need to grade these 17 midterms. But then I'll be like, Oh, but I just had a great idea for that round bag talk I'm giving in my department in three weeks. And I'd be like, No, Amy focus, but then I thought, no, Amy, focus on the thing your brain wants to do right now. Because otherwise, you're going to be trying to write this whole paper two days before it's due. So like, this is my way of avoiding the last minute with a task, like when I'm trying to get out of a different task. Okay. Well, I will just, I will just do that. Because it's the thing that is most interesting. To me, like, is it only interesting maybe because I have something else that I don't want to do, perhaps, right? Yeah. But maybe I started grading the midterms the day that they came in, because I just wanted to look at them because I'm always so excited, like didn't work to ask the right questions. And and
sometimes, and sometimes what you're doing triggers that other thing as well, right? Like that ADHD brain thing is like, Oh, this answer made me think of this, which made me think of that, which made me think, oh, this would be great for my presentation, right? Or this paper that I'm writing Oh, that's, you know, like the student didn't give the insight but suddenly, like the insight that they gave gives you three other insights, which gives you something
else write down like maybe that's like a little bit of the ADHD brain is is not like, I'm going to block out these hours. I'm going to do my grading. I'm gonna block out these hours. I'm going to free read on my thing. It's like, try to work for like, I don't know, five hours today. These is the whole bucket of tasks. As long as you are working for five hours a day, everything will get done in time. Don't stress.
Yeah, exactly. Right. And that's typically how I do things like I'll have, I block off time. You know, and I don't have to worry about Well, I do have some, but like, I don't really do long form scholarship anymore, just because of the way my job is. And so I'm, I'm, I work in like, 1000 to 1500 word chunks maximum, right. So I block off writing time, and I have a to do writing list. And then it's sort of like, I will do the things during that time, that strike me in that time, so that I can and you know, if it's something due next week versus three weeks from now, doesn't matter. It's just getting, it's getting written, and it'll get written when it gets written. And, you know, stuff will happen. But like for this one, though, it was something different. And then so I was like, so then I published it, and then I'm so exhausted that my thought of like, I can actually focus on other stuff, because I finally got this thing out of my system is not working, because I'm so tired. I can't focus on anything like I'm like, and I'm, and I'm pinging, too. I'm so tired that I'm pinging too much. Right, where it's like, pick it up, put
it down, pick it up, put it down, pick it up. Yeah,
exactly. And I'm like, Oh, let me read about this. Oh, there's let me read about like, you know, let me read about disability studies. Okay, now, let me read about disability stays rhetoric. Okay. Now let me
as your board, you do one paragraph and everything like that I give up. Yeah, not
even like a sentence. Like, I'm just like a sentence. And I'm like, oh, okay, like, so. So I'm really, like, physically tired. But I'm also and this is right about this. Well, you know, we're all on a pandemic right now. So my mood is not been great lately. Let's just put it that way. And so it just sort of, like, you know, the high sort of makes you forget that there was the low there, and then the leggy hit the low and you're like, Oh, I'm
down here. Yeah, I guess we're still, as you're talking, it occurs to me like, like, there's a couple of different kinds of highs and lows, we could hit it, we should probably distinguish them, right. So there are times in our lives when we know that we have left something to the last minute because quote, unquote, we work better in a panic, which was true. We have a little bit of shame about that. Because we know we would have done better work if we had been able to do more than 10 hours on like a 15 page term paper or what have you. And we know that we deserve to feel exhausted after that, because we did a bad thing, which was like, Yeah, pull an all nighter. And that's not how normal people work. And we hate ourselves. And so we can understand they're a bit of a writing hangover. Because it's like, if you drink too much alcohol, which you know, you shouldn't have done, you're going to get a hangover morally, that feels just right. Yeah. Yeah. And then But then there are these kind of unexpected hangovers, because you like your paper that you wrote your paper that's like where I'm at now your first he he was not late, it was a pitch. And they wrote it happily and quickly. But now you still have that same hangover and the hangover. There is not because you did a bad thing, right? The Hangover there is. You were very excited. Right? I think you you generated those like sort of chemicals in your brain or the sort of physiological and emotional response of excitement and urgency related to something that you felt the world needed to hear and that an editor agreed with you and you had this venue. And it wasn't like, I'm not going to get it done on time. Or I'm doing it poorly. It was like, I want to get this out there. It's very, very important to me, it's very important to me, it's important to me, it's important to me, and then you did it like no problem. And then you posted it. And then after it was very important to you and very urgent and then it was accomplished and over. You have the same letdown as if you like had an alcohol hangover as if you had an all nighter to do something at the last minute and you hate yourself. Hangover. Right? Like that's a different one. Yeah, I had I had the hangover. They came from a physical challenge, right? A shock of falling into a hole that I didn't know existed. And this like immediate, just purely physiological reaction that pumped me full of adrenaline. I knew I had to get out of that hole. Yeah, I did. And then right, so that was a purely.
I mean, it's the bouncy Amy would be like,
like, what I wish I could have seen it. Like, I wish I could No, but like what I'm honestly proud of myself when a boss moved back. It's not bloody catch up. Like don't worry. Yeah, I fell in the hole. But I'm going to reassure you. Yeah, but like people say stupid shit like that when they're on their adrenaline all the time. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like my friend Paul, who like got smashed into a guardrail by a motorcycle and like his legs got man gold. And he said to the paramedics, like, like don't cut my shorts. They're my favorite shorts, like a bone sticking through his shorts. Like,
what are you talking about? Yeah, right. So there's that kind of purely physical response that doesn't have anything to do with like your intention. or psychology, your sense of urgency. And then they're like, there are other things like I was reading about this week, because remember last week I talked about my my piano recital I have to do on Sunday.
Oh my god, I'm
still terrified. So naturally, I researched the hell out of it. Yeah, right. About performance anxiety. And one of the things I was reading about it was like, you're going to be super nervous, like leading up to this thing, because you want to do well. And then you're going to play you're gonna find that your hands are shaky, because you're having a stress response. And like, take a breath, here are some things you can do. And it's like, and then you're gonna find afterwards like for a couple of hours, you're still really keyed up and you want to go ask people like, how did I do and you're like, all, like Long Island, you're all over the place. And then after that crash, crash, the like, you're gonna feel maybe depressed, right? Because like, you were so goosed up on this adrenaline and panic and you had an artificial amount of energy related purely to an emotional state. Right? And then you maintain that high for a little bit afterwards. And then when the thing is done, even if it went very well, you're gonna feel rotten, just like athletes often describe coming back from the Olympics. Like many of them, many of the like, Simone Biles has talked about this. Yeah. Michael Phelps has talked about this, like really high ranking athletes. I think Lindsey Vonn has talked about this, like, you went all the metals, you come back. And it was like, you did the greatest thing of your life, and you're supposed to be the happiest, and you've like, achieved all of your dreams. And then you're like, I'm so depressed, my life has no purpose, like, so it's a little bit about that, that to write of like the accomplishment of a major, major goal that's been animating your motivation. And once you achieve it, you'd be like, I just get to coast for the rest of my life now, like, I've met my life's goals, or I've met my publication goals, or like, I got tenure, or whatever it is, you're like, I'm going to be happy once it finally happens. And then it happens, and you're happy, but for a very brief period of time, and then you crash, right? Yeah. And I think these crashes are inevitable. And I'm wondering how we can make space to understand that they're just part of a natural process of healing, from positive excitement, or negative anxiety, or a physical or psychological danger, that doesn't matter if it was a good thing, or a bad thing. It doesn't matter if it was your fault. Or if it was an accident, or if it was a desired thing, like none of that matters, because the physical reaction is still going to be the same as like, you're gonna feel like you have the smarts of a potato. Right? And the energy of the slough coming out of the tree once a week to go poop, maybe. Right,
baby?
How do we but then we make,
but but the the other thing is, is that like, of course, we're not sloths, who can only come out of the tree once a week to poop. And sort of life goes on. Yeah. Right. And that's, and so it's been. And I think that that's one of the hard parts is that you, I still have to work, right. And I still have these things that I have to write for work because I have to write for work, and I still have to parent and I still have to, like, make dinner. And you know, all the other you know, again, things executive functioning things that you already struggle with, with ADHD, but become even more of a struggle now that like you've, you know, you're in that you're in that hangover state. Like, again, it's like doing anything when you're hungover after you drink, right? It's everything, everything is harder. And that's and that's, that's also kind of what it feels like right now is that everything is is harder. Because, you know, again, and I mean, I was an athlete, you know, I mean, I swam. And so, you know, we and I was never that high level, but I mean, I can remember, we would always get time off after a big swim meets. And usually you're just really physically tired, right, like, so you could sort of recover in so far is that everybody? And again, this is this thing around physical health versus mental health, where there was you were given space, and you still had to go to school and everything like that, but it was it was sort of like, oh, yeah, you just had a big me, it's gonna take you some time to physically recover. But at the same time, you were also mentally recovering, right? Like, you could be left alone and like, I don't want to do anything. Okay, that's understandable. You're physically tired, even though at the same time, you're also mentally exhausted. Right? Yeah. And I think that that's, again, that that idea of, you know, and again, not saying that the Olympians and all of that but it's but I think that in a lot of cases for these things and and this is that kind of shame around it. I think that the the shame around it for me with ADHD is that like, why can't I just stay Leno? Like, normal people stay at the same level, right? They have slight highs and slight lows, right? And so that's where my sort of, you know, why can't I just stay level? Right? Well, I can't I just find like what you know, and it's like, Why do I get myself so hyped up about this, right, like, or cares so deeply about these things? And again, it's who I am. It's always been who I am. It's my ADHD but at the same time when you're in those lows and you're just like, why does it have to? Like, you know? Yeah, I mean, again, it's like binge drinking. It's like, you can not binge drink, right? Like that's, you know, you could not binge drink. And so it's like, could I not binge adrenaline? Like, could I
wish we're bearish thinkers? Like, it's like a binge drinking? It's been Yeah. thinking, like, that's part of your gift, right? Like part of your gift is that when you go on a Twitter rant, you have the wherewithal and the interest and the spoons to write a letter to your editor and say, Can I write about this? And then they're like, yeah, and then you do it the same day. And then it gets published. Right? Like, like, there's a lot of people. Lee who can't do that, right. They're terrified at the idea of do that. Like, it's the same thing. Like, like, we were joking, I think, before we started recording, or maybe it was after we started recording, I don't remember anymore, because my short term memory is not great. But like, I'm doing a lot of media now. Because the Facebook Yes, meta, or whatever they're called. And, like, they'll call me and they'll be like, do you have time today? And I'll be like, what time? Is it? Now? They're like, it's one before three? Does that work? I'm like, just call me right. Now. Let's get this over with me. Because I can do it right away. Because I know that they've asked me something that I'm interested in. And I'm immediately swinging up in terms of my excitement level, so that I know I can do it. Right. Yeah. And in fact, the sooner I do it, the better it's going to be exactly like, most people are like, could we do this tomorrow to do some research first, or I really nervous or like, I need to get my talking points. And, and that's really hard for them, and they get spun out in a different way. But there are things that people with ADHD sometimes can do, because we are so adept at writing the excitement, right? And the hyper focus feels good for us. Like some people don't like to be Mondo maniacally focused on things like, yeah, you know, perseverating or obsessing, and we're like, No, I'm going to do a deep dive into every stupid thing Mark Zuckerberg has ever said at a press release. I'll get back to in 20 minutes and I will have read six years press releases, right? No problem. Sorry. Did
they ask you about the sweet baby race?
No,
cuz that's huge. That I know.
I've been watching that on Twitter. Like, I'm hoping that like there's going to be somebody cool enough to ask me about that. Okay, I'm hoping. Yeah. Fingers crossed. Like I'm still trying to explain like Instagrams. No, not Instagram. I'm still trying to find Tik Tok school challenges to people saying like, they're trolling you, journalists. They're trolling you. Don't take the bait. I'm Hannah Gatsby. It's not for you. Put it down. Right. Yeah. Oh, shit. I got played. Yeah, so like, there's a gift there. There's a gift that you can produce something quickly. And it really doesn't cost you that much in terms of spoons, right? Because it's, it's not as scary or difficult for you to do that as it is for other people. It's exciting. And because the way your brain works, your adrenaline peak might be higher than the people who are legitimately too nervous to do it. Right. Yeah, so I'm like Nom, nom nom, send me all of that adrenaline. I will write it like my amphetamines that I take every day. Yeah, I can surf that wave of excitement. And I'm going to get something done. Right? And it's going to be great. And then when it stops, I'm like, why am I like this? Yeah, right. So I don't know that, that we have to be that we have to be ashamed of that crash that comes after because we're doing something difficult, like and that's the trick too, because it feels easy, right? Yeah, the amazing things that we do. Like everybody has something they're amazing at the amazing things that we do feel easy for us. But the reason they feel easy is because we're excited. And we're flooded with chemicals that help us focus, right had that's why it's easy. Other people cannot do those things. And so we don't feel like we deserve. Having done something amazing, that felt easy to feel tired after, because you didn't feel tired when you were doing it, it feels tiring when you stop, right. And I wonder if it's more tiring and distressing and more disabling. When we don't understand why we're reacting. Like that, you know, like maybe if I was like, you know, I did like three journalist things in the last two days. And I also like went to a meeting that I was in charge of, and I know I got really excited and keyed up and it was really on my game. And I just need to not wear any makeup today. And I need to put my away message. And I think I'm just gonna, like, just follow my interests on the internet because someday that someone will pull the handle on the slot machine and that will be useful and I won't get myself for it. I'll be like I really performed at a high level in ways that other people might not have been able to perform good for me. But now I'm having a reaction of the people who can't perform like this might not be having. It's not that I'm not doing anything, right. I'm doing something but I'm doing something I'm able to do and like on our my teaching days now. Like I just got my teaching assignment for next for the winter semester. And I'm like, okay, Tom, my class is like, from 230 to 530. On Wednesdays, he's like, so is that going to be our pizza night? Because he knows like when I teach Yeah, I'm so hopped up on the adrenaline and I'm really good in the classroom. But like I also will say to students like no, you can't meet me after class. Yeah, because I can't. I'm overwhelmed with the performance. I've just produced and the interactions and the socializing and all of that. And yeah, I will be so happy to talk to you tomorrow, but I'm going to be rude to you try to talk to me now. And also I can't cook. So like I've made space in your life, to know that I'm always going to have that reaction and there's nothing wrong with it. So I'm still really tired. But I'm not like, upset that I'm really tired. Like, I'm not stressing myself out and prolonging that cycle by getting like a cortisol response to my tiredness from my cortisol response. Does that make sense?
No, that for you? And I think well, because for me, it's so I am, I am an extrovert, right? Yes, you are. And so
I noticed that about you, Lee? Yeah,
no, I know, it's not clear. But what so there's, like, there's always been this disconnect in my in my head where like, I am an extrovert, I get energy from these from speaking like you were saying about the speaking like, they everyone in my office knows that if somebody needs to do a webinar or presentation in a pinch, right? If somebody can't do a workshop or something like that, as long as it's something that I know about, you give me a slide deck, I'll do it. Right. And I'll do it well, and I will stand up there and I will schmooze and I will, you know, answer the questions, and I will roll with the punches. And it'll be, um, and then, but I'm like, but I'm, I'm an extrovert. And yet, it exhausts me in a way that I hear introverts say that it exhausts them. And I'm like, But I'm an extrovert. And And again, like, it's it's, so I'm, again, it's that intersection between extraversion and the ADHD reaction. Right? Yeah. Where, you know, but like, is this week as well, like you were talking about the me like I've chaired two really big deal meetings this week, as well. And that's not something I'm used to doing yet, in my new role is chairing these things. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and on Wednesday, like, Wednesday's are the worst. I'm solo parenting right now, Wednesdays are the absolute worst, because I have to have one kid at swimming and one kid at ballet at exactly the same time, right. And I had that I had a big deal meeting just before and so it was going to be a rush to leave and somebody was going to be late. And either my kids like being late, and I don't like him being late. And I just I told both kids, I was like, You know what? We're not going to do any of the activities tonight. And we're just going to get Thai food. Yep. Because, well, the plug on the whole, yeah, we're all very tired. And, you know, other things were going on too. But like, it was just like, I just had to pull the plug. I was just like, I can't, like I'm usually I would push through that in the name of being like a good mom, or like, a good person, or like, whatever it is. But I was like, I could feel myself getting shaky and anxious. And like, yeah, knowing that I would just end up crying in the car, right? Yelling at other drivers get the fuck out of my way. That yeah, exactly that it would just be like that it would take and I was like, I don't want to deal with that. Like, I just like, I just published this thing. I just shared these two meetings, like they were actually on the same day, I just realized that. So that came out of those two meetings on the same day on Wednesday. And I was like, if I try to do this tonight, I will break down. And I was like, you know, I just maybe we're just not going to do this today. And I level figure it out. And, you know, because we've and so that was sort of me giving myself a break. And clearly I still feel bad about it. Where I'm just like a little bit like, maybe I should have pushed through and maybe it wouldn't have been the end of the world had I cried because the kids would have gone to their activities. But But what are you teaching them
to? And you probably haven't been like real shirty with them to be like, oh, yeah, get you there on time. Yeah, but all of your activity that you know, me had kind of a week to
go like dinner like I would just you know, status like everyone Thai food, great. I'll go pick up some Thai food and then we all just ate Thai food. Nom, nom, nom. And it was good. Right? It was good.
But I think like, like the thing with chairing the meetings, which you don't normally do, but like we're doing the webinars and wondering why you're tired is because you're doing it sort of, excitedly Right? Like, there's a way in which like, you know, there are some things I can do that other people might find exciting would produce a quicker heart rate. And they don't for me, like it's just like an everyday kind of thing, no problem. But some other things where I want to really be on my game, or it feels really important to me, or the situation is one that like I'm highly responsible for things and everything sort of depends on me, like I've joked here, but I love teaching because like, the conversational pace that I'm most suited for is 20 People talking to me and me answering all of them at the same time like like bath harmony, playing like multi chess simultaneously. Like I like that but like, yep, like I love doing that. But it's like running sprints like you're gonna be tired after either If you enjoy the activity, you still have an intensity level that's going to produce this chemical reaction, right? So sometimes, like, you have the chemical reaction without feeling emotionally spun out, right? But you still have this coming down period after and sometimes you have like, an emotional spin out that you're, like, have exactly the same reaction as when you were happy about doing something. Right. And I think that's just the way because we're just so sensitive to those chemicals, right? We're just so sensitive to them. And because we do I mean, it is a characteristic of the disorder that we hyper focus on things, right, which means that we turn our attention to things with an unusual degree of intensity for a period of time that other people can't sustain. But neither can we write like, Oh, right. Yeah. So people can't read six years worth of Facebook memos in like 45 minutes, and I can, but it's just because I can look doesn't mean it doesn't cost me. Yeah, after and there's a value to me doing that. I'm like, put me in the room with those journalists that have like the 1000s of pages of the Facebook papers and like, let me at it, like I can read faster than all of you like, seriously, and I got the knowledge like, let me in there. Let me in there. Let me I have all the context to sleep for. I was sleep for four months, but like there's a real value to bringing that skill into a space, there's a real value to gathering everything in you just like taking on a new challenge, like sharing some like big deal meetings that you've never shared before. Because that's a challenge that you're ready for. And you can enjoy it in the moment but it and you can have an exceptional performance. But an exceptional performance doesn't mean that like that does in no way implies that there's no recovery needed. Right? Like, it's like I had this yoga teacher once because I was like, like, you just look so happy. If they're doing like, when is this going to get easier, like holding warrior to which like, requires both like patience? Yeah. And like strength, right? Yeah, at the time, I had neither. Right. And she's like, it's just as hard for me. But I don't mind. Like, I understand that it is gonna feel uncomfortable. And that's just the way it is. I don't get upset about it feeling uncomfortable. And I know it will stop when I stopped the pose, right? And like, I think, like maybe that's where we need to be with our like excitement hangovers, right is that we know, there's like, there's no way we're going to manage to do these extraordinary performances, like jumping out of holes, or leading big time meetings are totally amazing. It's like going on national TV with no prep time, right? Like, these are exceptional performances. But in no way, can we expect that an exceptional performance is not ever going to require a recovery period. Like that's not how it works, people who like you know, exceptional athletes. It's not like they go jog on their way home, right? Like, there's a reason you don't run at race pace in every training run that you do, because it's not sustainable for your body like and when you train for a marathon, you actually don't ever run the marathon distance in your training, because it's too hard on your body. That's like, do it once when you have to. And then you only run short recovery jogs for two weeks or a month, depending on what your fitness level and ambition level is, right. Exceptional performances in no way mean that it didn't cost you. Yeah, in some
way? Well, and I think they get that you've hit on it, and I saw a meme. And and I think we've talked about this before, but I think that it's it's worth repeating. It's sort of we're saying as well, is that so you have our SD and we're not saying this as RSD. But it's kind of related to that insofar as that we're also really sensitive to praise. Oh, yeah. And there is that element, though, that there's something really, and I really appreciate you for for saying it, because I think that that there. Is that part of that crash, though? I think, and again, thinking of that reaction is that because we make it look easy. People don't really recognize that it's extraordinary. Yeah. And so you end up with like, everybody's like, Oh, that's just what you do. Right? And so they're like, Yeah, you're just like that. And it's, it's, it makes it ordinary. Yeah, so you sort of, I don't know, there's there's something about that in, in, in, in having other and being able to recognize it for yourself. Yeah. So because it shouldn't be all external. But there is something about externally someone seeing it and saying that was extraordinary what you did. Yeah, right. Maybe not in those exact terms, but to be able to kind of contextualize it because we do get caught up ourselves. Or if you keep doing something, right, like, Well, Amy just does like I was I was flippantly asking you write that as they called you about Facebook because I know they always tell you
social media come like Oh no, what happened? Yeah,
it's like did they call Yeah, I wonder when's Amy's gonna be on TV in Canada coming up. But but that is something that also but you're right, that is extraordinary. Most people are like, Oh my god, she went on TV or oh my gosh, went on the radio. Um, you know, I can't do that or that would like to debilitate me for days leading up to it or, you know, I, you know, I'd be I'd be a nervous wreck the whole time. And not to say that, like you said any of those things aren't happening to us, but it does. Like it's the same thing like I, I have I work with people for whom, you know, workshops, they have to like work themselves up for it, and it takes a long time, and they've got to mentally prepare and all that, and I'm just like, give me the slide deck was dope. Yeah,
exactly. What room are we in? Yeah. What are we doing? What
am I doing? Like? Yeah, okay. Give me them to flip through. All right, great. Okay. We're talking.
I'm good. I'm good.
I'm good. I were really good. Do we have well, no, I don't want to do a blog if I'm working with somebody who wants to run thrilled to run through. But
seriously, if I can just as an aside, say, this is entirely how we run this podcast. Yeah, no, I know, this thing, the only person I could do a podcast on Earth with is you because we just come. And we're both over talkers. So yeah, we are about equally match. And we don't prepare in any way, explicitly for this. I mean, we're obviously prepared for it. Because we're thoughtful people having lived experiences of a given disability, we work in certain types of workplaces that expose us to certain types of things. And we are curious. And so there's just like, a bunch of stuff in our heads already. Yeah, you know, not a lot of people record conversational podcasts with high information value. Without notes. Like, I want people to know, even a script, we don't have a script, we don't have,
like, I don't know if anybody could tell we don't have a script. We like pick the
topic in the two minutes before we turn the Zoom recording on Yeah, and but that works like so that's a talent that we have, like, I would always say like, God was so unprepared like me and be like, we can't do this with anybody else. Because then they're gonna know like, we're, we've got nothing like, Yeah, we don't know what we're doing. Like, I've we must, because like, we keep getting these emails from people, but how valuable it is to them. Right? And it's, it's listable like, and it's pretty good. And like it just because it's easy for us to do. It doesn't mean we should hate ourselves for our quote unquote, lack of preparation, because we're obviously prepared enough when we get here, right? And we shouldn't like hate ourselves, because we don't have like seven pages of like, scripted texts that we want to get through and like bumpers and intro music. Yeah.
I don't have intro music.
Like, it's like, we're just not going to do that. Right. So yeah, no, exactly. But it's an extraordinary thing to do, right to be able to do that and gather a listenership. And that's great. And it's okay to be tired after that, right? Like, so just because it's easy for you doesn't mean it doesn't cost you something. And just because it costs you something, doesn't mean it was wrong to do it, right. Like, I think the trick is, to balance like I used to, before I was diagnosed with Medicaid, I used to run with a running group, and we would do these long runs on Sunday morning. And the long run would be like something like anywhere between like 16 and 22, or 23 kilometers, and then I that would be, you know, two or three hours for me is I come back like 11 in the morning. And then I would go to bed for three hours. Right? Sounds about right, for three hours. Because like, that's where my brain was at at that point. And Tom was like, like, I know, you need to recover. But like it basically takes you out of our family for an entire day. Right. So maybe that that was not working for me. Like since I've been sort of treated from ADHD, I'm not that tired anymore, right. So it's not like it doesn't make me a better athlete. It just means I'm not so catastrophically exhausted all the time. So I will like, come home and sit in my chair with my foot massager for 45 minutes, have a shower and be ready, right. So it's not like, you know, you chair this one meeting, and then you demand three paid days off to recover. Yeah, right. Like maybe you do a whole bunch of stuff in one week. And then on the fifth day, you read the Internet, which is passive research for something but you didn't manage to move a lot of planning forward on stuff like that feels like a good trade off. Right? Yeah, it's like toddler diets. It's like toddler diets, like they always say like, you know, we have this idea, like our toddler is going to have like 1/3 of their plate is going to be a something green and 1/3 of their plate is going to be a protein and plate was the cracker exclusively for cheese. And then one day of nothing but grapes, one day of pepperoni and then one day of jello and milk. But over the course of a week, it's balanced. Right? And like maybe that's the way I'm high performing. And like maybe not so high performing ADHD works is because we are creatures of extremes of talents and extremes of these. Yes, fallow periods and rest periods that we require after something excellent that we've done. It's not just proportionate to the amount of value we produced when we were being excellent. I mean, like, what's, like, Why does our level of productivity and the type of work we do have to be exactly the same every day, except when there's an extra thing, which is just an extra thing that we do, but then the next day is going to be exactly the same as every day that came before them saying they're like, yeah, like why don't know, I totally get it. Yeah. it'd be the same kind of productivity day.
Yeah. Well, I think and I think working from home has really helped with that. Because I don't have to look like I'm on all the time.
Mm hmm.
You know what I mean? Like, I just I can, you know, I have a couch down here that my dog is currently sleeping on, you can probably see him over
on top of the kitchen. But they do that they just like try to smash your pillows, dogs, they sleep on the part of the couch that changes the shape of the couch and was like, Don't do that dog in, like Chidori hair.
So if you follow me on Instagram, there's lots of pictures of my dogs noodling on and squishing the couch cushions if you want to see what it looks like right now. Very adorable, highly recommend. Yeah, it's really, it's really adorable. There's lots of lots of great Ziggy sleeping pics. But I don't even know where it was. Where was I? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I'm working from home. And so like, you know, don't listen to this. But I mean, there are there are times when I will go and sell for a little bit, or put pattern pieces together. Just because it is there's something soothing about the monotony of that is kind of like scrolling through, you know, scrolling through Twitter or whatever. But it's like, Okay, I'm gonna line this stuff up and tape it now I'm gonna line this up and tape it, I'm not gonna line this up and tape it and it's like, they're, it's, it's soothing to me, which I never thought it would be. But like, as I as I, as I keep describing, it's the easiest puzzle you ever want to make in your life. Um, because it's made to like, not be difficult. But and so like that's, that's something that I've I've found really helps that it's like, because I don't have to go to work this week, like after Thursday's are all it has always been hard days for me, because Thursday was sort of my tipping point during the week where it's like, a lot of hard work at the beginning of the week. And then my birthday is full. Yeah, Thursdays, it's just like, and part of it is just that like, I can't fake it as on Thursdays right? That was my like, if I have to go to work and put on the face and put on the the makeup and the shoe makeup. Oh my god and Taco lunch. What? Yeah, we I mean, I've worked at places where I've shared offices or had an open office. And so like Thursdays, being in an open office is just like, I don't want to sit there and be like, I'm being productive right now. I'm being you know, nice coworker right now I just I'm like, I want to be in a hole right now. And you know, being able to work from home I can, I can sort of plan my week around. When do I need to be in a hole? Yeah, yeah.
I have that a little bit. I think I have that a little bit to where there's some days where I know if I go into the office, Oh, hold on a little copier just to say where if I go into the office, I know what's going to happen is I'm going to be rude. Yeah, people, right. That's just where I'm at. Like somebody some kids gonna knock on my door and be like, Miss and rage. And then can I use your stapler and rage and you know, the economics department is and I'll be like, Barbara, like, get your own goddamn stapler. You loser. And there's a map on the wall right behind you. Wow. Dare you? Don't you know who I am? Yeah. How dare you interrupt me with your stupid questions from your lack of bright light. I mean, that's not what I want to be. And that's not who I am. But that's who my mouth becomes when I've over people's right. I can be kind and generous to students, which aligns with my best intentions until my kindness bucket is like empty. I have no more kindness to give out to people. And the only thing is at the bottom of that bucket once it's empty is scorpions, right? I need to go somewhere and sit with my Scorpio a Scorpio. Right? I'm just gonna have people like and and like, that's something I think probably ADHD people neurodivergent people have experiences like you'll express that limit to people like I have to leave this party, like right now. Right? And they're like, Oh, it's fine. You're having a good time. It's gonna just give it a couple years, like, and then you're nasty to people. No, like, I can't believe you treated someone. So like that. You're like I told you. Yeah, like, I'm not punishing you. Like, I'm not really on purpose. But I saw like the clock was a night. turn into a pumpkin. The end, right? I don't make the rules, right? I can just be aware of them. So like, some days, I'm like, I can stay home and grade. But I will not be wearing real pants. And I'm not going to do my hair. Like I just can't I don't care. I am feeling very antisocial. I don't want to engage. Like if a student was like, I want to talk to you on the phone. I'd be like, No, but I can write really nice comments on their papers because I can still do that. Right? And so when people give me the freedom to arrange my work day and my work week and my work tasks, according to what like I've put the hard work in to learn about myself right about where where the scorpion buckets tend to be found. Then it works. But can I learn to stop hating myself like lots of people put shoes on and go to the office five days a week and talk to people on the phone but that's not me, right? Yes, not me. I do my job to a very high level, right. And I do it to a higher level with fewer pitfalls when I know where my own Scorpion buckets are. And when I can protect other people from them. Again, it's out of work, it's me getting into work, so I can stay productive. But it just means like, it's five days of eating nothing but goldfish crackers, and then two days of nothing but milk and cheese, like it balances out. I think we all need to make space for us to be different in those ways, because we can't ask other people for what we need if we don't even think we deserve to have it. Right. If we're just like, I just let a meeting what was so hard about that? Yeah. Why do I feel so tired now? Or if students really want me to have my office hours right after class, because that's when their questions are fresh. And I'm like, so selfish for not doing that for them. Right to them. And how people talk to me, I hear it coming out. And I can't stop it. But it's off. Right? It's just ease. Don't, right. And I'm stopped feeling guilty about it seemed to be anything I could do with my own shame to make that behavior different. I just had to change the circumstances.
Yeah. I think that that's a good place to end also, because my internet connection keeps getting unstable.
Or we end up being a bitch to people leave. Oh,
as you trying to manage your time so that you can not be
at it. The last image in people's minds is going to be me being nasty to students after class. Good. So that was me being nasty to people after the podcast. Yeah, I was like Hannah GADS being a meta joke in there somewhere.
So yeah, so there's so you made me think of something speaking of Hannah Gatsby before we before we close off, and it's this the song that she uses at the end of her first special? Better son and daughter. By Rylo? Is it Rylo? Ken? I'm trying to remember the name of them.
I believe you sound like you're trying to say Kylo Ren.
Yeah, but it's Rylo Ken It's like it's I anyways, I'll put it in the shadows. Anyways, it's called
daughter's look that up for us. Yeah.
And, and it always struck me and I couldn't really hear the lyrics, and I downloaded it, and it is the best description of depression that I have ever heard in my entire life. Like, just in terms of it being like, um, like, it starts but then there's the like, it starts soft, and then goes really loud. And the really loud part is the part where it's, that's in the end of the the special and it goes sometimes when you're on, you're really fucking on. And your friends all sing along and they love you. Sometimes when you're on you're really fucking wrong about you. But the, but the lows are so extreme, that the good feels fucking cheap. And it teases you for weeks in its absence.
And again, think great. Honestly. Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. Okay, bad student evaluation over and over and over.
Yeah. And, and it just but I mean, the whole song like it, the quiet part is like, she's, she's singing sometimes in the morning, I'm terrified and can't breathe awake and cannot open my eyes. And you're just and she's like, trying to work her way out of bed, and she snaps at her mom. And she, like, you know, doesn't want to feel this way and wishes she could feel different. And then it like, booms out that part. And then, you know, she sort of ends triumphantly of like, we'll fight it will break through we'll fake it if we have to. But it's just it makes me cry every time I hear it, but it's like literally the most like I said it's it is the best short piece that I've ever heard that describes succinctly what depression is like,
that is amazing. Yeah, I'm gonna have to do a deep dive into that as soon as I get off this call
but But it made me think of that where the the the lows are so extreme that the good feels fucking cheap.
Yeah, but it's not the good. No, it's not. It isn't want you to know. Yes, no, no indifferently. Yeah. And good way to end.
Yeah, it is. So thank you so much for listening everyone. If you have experiences with these kinds of hangovers, um, you know should feel free to share them with us or not. You can email us at all the things adhd@gmail.com I'm ready writing on Twitter and on Instagram if you want to see really cute pictures of Ziggy sleeping.
And I am Did you want go on Twitter and I also want us to receive all of your emails about any childhood feats of strength with Jump pole,
or lifted a car that whole story? Just a car. It's the car Oh, Baby,
you know, set your own broken bones or whatever. We're happy to hear those adrenaline stories as well. So we hope you stay nice and we
Yep, so thank you again and we'll see you next week or hear you next week or whatever it is I never easy bye
