Church Growth is Not Enough for Latin America with Mark Dunbar

3:49AM Aug 1, 2023

Speakers:

Scott

Dwight

Shawn Carson

Luke Allen

Mark Dunbar

Keywords:

church

honduras

god

mark

work

growing

ideas

world

vocations

dna

life

missionaries

gave

latin america

mission

gospel

part

accounting

sacred secular divide

started

When when I heard about the cultural mandate or cultural commission and how it relates to the Great Commission, then all of a sudden it just started making sense, you know, and that is one of the truths that most Latin Americans have never heard even though they are Christian even though they have grown up in the church. And that is one of the things that dissolves that whole divide between the the secular and sacred is is that cultural commission

Hi, friends welcome back to another episode of ideas have consequences the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance, a show where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission, and today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as you rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations in the crate Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Well, welcome again to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen. And I'm privileged to be joined today by my team members, Dwight Vogt, Shawn Carson, Luke Allen, and our special guest today is Mark Dunbar joining us from Mexico. Mark, it's great to have you with us today. Oh, it's a huge honor to be here with you. Been looking forward to this.

Mark is a career missionary with the world Gospel Mission. He is not just a missionary in terms of his own career, but was raised on the mission field. His parents were missionaries in Honduras, I believe. So Mark's whole life has been involved in international missions. And Mark, missionaries, like you are heroes to me, so just thank you for your incredible service over many years, so we're looking forward to hearing more of your stories today.

Well, it's an honor, like I said, people always like to lift up missionaries as being super Christians. And that's not that's not the case.

Yeah, it's, yeah, I get that, you know, and we teach in our teaching that you know, it's there isn't kind of higher lower categories of Christian service, right. At the same time, I like to remind people that those who have been received that call for you know, Missions International ministry, it's it's, it's, it's a challenging field to be in and really worthy of respect. But

what we have found is that what Jesus said was true that those who have left home and family and everything that God will multiply it and we have homes all over the place now and family all over the place now. So God is definitely very, very faithful.

Mark is what we call here the DNA we call a kingdom, iser and kingdom misers are, it's kind of a funny word, but it's basically somebody who's been impacted by the teaching of the DNA, the teaching that God's given us to share on biblical worldview and the transformation of the nations based on biblical truth. And has put it into practice, and are doing really kind of very creative things with that teaching and connecting into the network of the DNA and partners that we work with. And Mark is representing all of those things. And so we I'd love to hear Mark, you know, kind of a little bit about how the DNA kind of your connection with us how that impacted you. But before we get into that, I'd love you just to kind of go back to the beginning and just share a little bit of your story. Growing up in Honduras, and your calling to missions and just anything you want to share from from kind of your your life story there going back.

Well, I was six months old when my folks first took me out of the US. We started out in Honduras, and so that's where I grew up. And that's what I considered pretty much home I grew up learning both English and Spanish, finished up high school in Portland, Oregon, and then went to a small Christian Free Methodist school in Kansas McPherson, Kansas. It was a two year school then finished out at Portland State and

Portland State. Yes, that's a very Christian schools

quite a quite a combination. Well, McPherson, Kansas, I

know, what did you study at Portland State mark,

accounting, accounting. And one of the reasons I did that is that in Central College, one of the things they taught was how government funding, or we should not be dependent on government. And so I figured, as I didn't want to have to apply for government loans, so I went to a state school, which I guess kind of defeated the purpose are not dependent on government, right. But anyway, I got, I actually became a CPA and Portland for a couple of years. And both my wife and I were feeling a growing calling as missionaries. And for me, it was it was kind of a growing unrest in my mind, knowing what am I doing here, knowing that God has something else for me and I started to just daydream. And whenever I, I would daydream, as we all do, it would, my thoughts would always go back to Honduras, and everything. And we actually worked at our headquarters for a couple years, they needed someone in the accounting department. And Serena, my wife was finishing her university. So when she finished up, then that's when we started race in our support and headed to Honduras. So we were there for more than 20 years. And then now we've been in Mexico for about 10 years. And so when I started out as a missionary in Honduras, I worked in different administrative roles. Because I was the CPA, then a lot of bookkeeping, one of my favorite things is, is putting in accounting programs into different schools and different institutions that need it, especially computerized systems, then teaching someone to use it. So it was, that's how lots of my early career started out like that.

Mark, tell us a little bit about your mission organization. You mentioned you gave reference to world Gospel Mission. But yeah, tell us a little bit about that.

You know, real Gospel Mission started in 1910 started in China. And since then, it has branched all over the world. And we come from the Wesleyan Arminian branch, we are non denomination or I should say multi denominational, where we are not affiliated with any one denomination in the in the US. And our main goal has been to establish a strong church in the countries where we where we go.

Where did you meet serene? Hi,

that was my folks took a leave of absence when I was in high school. And, and so I finished up high school there and they've started pastoring a small church in Portland. And so I I came back from college from Kansas and noticed a cute new girl and in church and that was I chased her till she caught me.

All right, all right. Well, you did well, Mark, you did really very

blessed.

Mark, tell us about your children. How many how many kids do you have?

Yeah, God has blessed us with three kids. They're spread all over. Our our oldest one is a teacher and Silverdale. Washington. She teaches English high school English. Our son is an engineer in near Denton, Texas, in northern Texas. And then our youngest one as the only one who's married and she's a pastor's wife in Portland, Oregon, and have two grandkids and the third one on the way.

All right. That's great. Congratulations. And she has

started a ministry called immigrant connection through the Wesleyan Church, they're working with immigrants giving low costs. Immigration Service to to immigrants.

That's great. It's great. Mark, I'd love to hear since you grew up in Honduras, and then you went back after college, you know what, or and you're still connected there today. Obviously you're living in Mexico. But what what's changed with Honduras over your lifetime, what's, what was it like then and what's it like today? Or you can even expand that to you know, Latin Central America more broadly if you wanted to?

Yeah, growing up there. It's always been considered a very poor country. And I just kind of took that as, that's the way things are, and without really any way of being able to change something like that. But it was a very loving country, very safe country, I remember, as a kid, I could walk anywhere, any hour of the night, day or night. And no, no problem, there was a problem with theft, but no problem with violence. But in the past, probably 2025 years is when we've just seen a huge increase in violence there. And a lot of it is with with the increase in the drug trade and the gangs together, and they usually side with some corrupt officials, to kind of give them the the safety net, they need to do what what they're doing. And so Honduras, and lots of Central America is just converted into a country where business is very hard to get established. And then people are afraid for their lives a lot. And that's why lots of them are coming to the US. Yeah. And at the same time, the church has grown. And, and that was one of the the things that finally, by hearing DNA, things started to make sense to me.

Explain a little bit about that, Mark. So you were you were seeing two things happening, you were seeing kind of rising crime, drug trade violence. Obviously, poverty had been kind of a common denominator throughout Latin America. And at the same time, you were seeing a growing church. And so there was a disconnect there, I assume some something was something you were began to struggle with that, but what tell us a little bit about the church in Honduras, and you know, what, what's, what's it like, you know, you how's it been growing? I mean, what, what, what, what's the church look like?

The, the church has expanded a lot. And not just depending on the US, lots of the churches there are independent of the US, and, and organizations in the US. And, and they are growing, and that's, and that's a very good thing. Lots of them. There's a growing unity. Although in the unity, there are always political groups, that, so it's kind of like in the US to, you know, you have your different denominations, you have your independent churches, you have your mega churches, and then you have your small churches. In that sense, it's it's very, very similar. And in my case, our field leader gave me a book called The hole in our Gospel by Richard Stearns. And that's what kind of started me on this whole journey. And then later on when helping hurts. I, Steve Corbett and Brian fikkert. And I know that you just had a pot podcast with Brian and that was, that was fascinating to hear that. But those books started in me, I guess, just a growing desire to see if the gospel is really strong enough to challenge some of these social ills, some of the social issues that we live through now, you know, how strong is our Gospel? How big is our God? Is the only big enough to take us to Heaven? Or is he really big enough to to really challenge some of these things that are definitely not of God here on Earth.

Hi, friends. Thanks again for joining us today for this interview with Mark Dunbar. We live in a world of poverty, corruption and injustice. We all know this isn't the way it should be. And help needs to come from somewhere. But who is responsible to fight poverty and bring healing to our broken communities? Is it the government or the church? The answer is a church but unfortunately, we have largely neglected that responsibility as a global church. We at the disciple nations Alliance for the last 25 years have worked around the world helping Christians understand our mission is more than saving souls for heaven, but it also includes bringing healing and transformation to our broken world. If you'd like to learn more about what we do here at the disciple nations Alliance, one of the best ways to do that is by starting our most popular free video training today, and join over a million others who have I've learned how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society. Sign up today by going to quorum dale.com. or find the link in this episode's landing page. Again, that is quorum dale.com. before resuming the episode, if you could do me a favor and hop on the podcast app that you're currently listening on and leave the show a rating and review, or share your favorite episode with a friend that would really help us as we continue to try to reach more people with this show. Thanks again for joining us here on ideas have consequences. Mark, when

you were, you know, growing up there as a missionary kid, what would you say the mindset of the missionaries was maybe you didn't know or even the church today towards, you know, social issues, cultural issues, the brokenness, the poverty, crime drugs, you know, it was it, hey, it's none of our business, we just, you know, we're we've got different business here, which is to get people saved, or how would you describe kind of the attitude? Well, I

can tell you what my attitude was, yeah,

maybe just start with that.

I saw success, I measured success as a healthy church defined as a self governing growing body of believers with a correct theology. So that was that was our focus. That was my main focus. And I believe, overall, the church's main focus, I should say, however, that our mission is known for social outreach in Honduras, it's been education. We have had strong pioneer missionaries like Donald Hawk, who was a farmer in Ohio, and he left everything to start a school in the jungles of Honduras for underprivileged boys. And he himself never even finished college. But even so he was that convinced and, and in that institution has had huge, huge impact on on hundreds, if not 1000s, of lives in Honduras. And so I don't want to say that we ignored the whole social part. Education has always been a huge part. But I know in my own mind, that is how I defined success at that point. And that's where DNA has really helped to whether there's a saying in Latin America, that central skiold Bank, in other words, that the coin finally fell, you know, and it finally clicked,

something clicked and Aha, something Yeah, yes. Yeah. Go back to your goal. Mark, again, could you say that again? You know, the way that you saw success was a

healthy church, defined as a self governing growing body of believers with correct theology.

Nothing wrong with that, right? No, no, I mean, that's a good goal. What's wrong? What's what's what's, what was what was wrong with that, Mark? Well, we all want to see more of those kinds of churches, don't we? Sure.

He has, but in a sense, it's more of a churchianity instead of a Christianity. It's very church oriented instead of Kingdom oriented. Okay. And for me, I equated the church with Kingdom. And, and now I see how, how limited? I guess my, my whole vision was,

ya know, we talk a lot about that, as you well know, in the DNA. And, in fact, in some ways, this is why I think God raised up this ministry, you know, is to to address that problem that for a lot of Christians, there was, you know, we call it evangelical Gnosticism, or this divided mindset that God is concerned about the church, but not so much with the rest of the world, which has kind of fallen, and you know, it's going to be destroyed. It's kind of, don't worry about that just kind of get churches planted, get people into churches. And what you have to say about that worldview is that it's definitely partly right, we want to see people getting saved and into churches and discipled. But God's got a bigger purpose for all of that. And I think that's what got lost somewhere along the line, not just with you, Mark or your mission, but with so many, you know, missions and churches around the world, especially in the West. You know, we exist for a purpose to be salt and light and a redeeming influence in our culture and society. So, yeah, go back and talk more about that for yourself. You were you mentioned Stern's book the hole in the gospel and fikkert book. Yeah, those books what How did those books begin to challenge go ahead and wait? Yeah.

And you mentioned the penny, we use expression the penny dropped. What What what penny dropped for you?

Well, basically, that I myself had been focusing only on the spiritual content of the Bible. And anytime there was like a directive, I would spiritualize it, which, you know, isn't all wrong. But at the same time, I see that the Bible is also very practical. And during that time, I was introduced to che, community health evangelism. It was a hunter and who was running it. And so David Hawk, which some of you know, Larry, over Holtz, and I went to a che training and in there, that's when we learned about the Luke 252 idea, which I don't think originated in che, I think Bob Moffitt, as far as I know, started that. But so that that was one of the coins that dropped that whole holistic view and the whole idea that, that God is interested in our entire well being not just our spiritual well being.

Yeah, for those of you who don't have Bluetooth hippy to memorized. It's that passage of the scriptures that talk about Jesus's growth, Jesus grew in wisdom, stature, and favor with God in favor with man. It's talking about his kind of upbringing, his his young years before he was in kind of his full time ministry. And Bob Moppet, when he teaches on that he talks, he says, you know, God's concerned about growth and all of these areas, and it's a way of challenging people to think more broadly, you know, we would definitely say it's important to grow spiritually. But Jesus grew in all these areas, right. So yeah, Mark, go ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off, but just

Yeah. And so I started promoting that whole idea whenever I was invited to speak, but I didn't really have the foundation for it yet. And it wasn't until well, we we transferred to Mexico. And then I was invited to a DNA conference vision there in Panama. And all of a sudden, that's when things started falling into place, the whole idea that ideas do have consequences, and that Romans 12, one was followed by Romans 12, to Romans 12, one talks about the need for our consecration. And that's our reasonable form of worship. But then, as followed by that we must have our whole way of thinking transformed as well. And that's where I saw that I had fallen short, I was I was concentrating mostly just on the on the first part, without the whole second part. And so that created in me just that growing hunger, and I started devouring DNA books, took the basics course, took the Monday church. And all of a sudden, it started making sense or not all of a sudden, it was a gradual, several years before it started really making sense, unfortunately.

That's, that's really great. And by the way, Mark, thank you for your hard work. Mark, not only went through the training Monday church, but he helped us to get it translated. He was part of the team and help to help us get it into Spanish. So a lot of other people can benefit from that as well. So thank you for your help with that.

Well, one of the things that Darrow says is that the Bible is the only story that really comports or behaves as with life as we see it. And, and so that has, I guess, opened my eyes as I read the Bible, as I read the Scripture, to say, Okay, how does this really had to identify, I identify with this with what I'm living through right now. And the gospel is so much more than just getting me to heaven. It's the whole antidote to our brokenness. And it's the recipe for the abundant life that Jesus has promised us. And so that, in a sense, gave me a whole new appreciation for the Scripture, to just seen how the Word of God is, is our life. It's it's, it's the it's the answer to every kind of brokenness that we can find around us.

Yeah, it's the story that makes sense of the word of the world that we are actually live in and there's an internal consistency to it. Go ahead, do it.

Yeah, Mark, I remember where you went through the basics course. And I think you got involved in the translation early on. And you just had a real excitement about that. But then I, I don't know whether you communicated me in an email, but you said, I'm taking my boys through the Monday church. And I thought, well, that's impressive. How did that work for you? You went through the course. And then you said my boys needed or what? What happened there? And how did they was? Yeah,

my boys is my son and my son in law. And that was a means of me. Trying to disciple them as well, my son in law is a pastor. And, and so it, it really helps speak into his life and his ministry as well. With my son, then he started using it as a Bible study there and in Texas. And I don't know, it spoke to me so much that I thought, This is what Latin America needs.

Why is that? Because

in Latin America, and in the church in Latin America, there that holes,

see sacred secular divide, yes, sacred

secular divide. So that so that people believe that if I'm really going to serve God, I have to do it within the confines of a church. If I'm really going to serve God, it means leaving behind all my dreams, and, and becoming a pastor, a teacher, a missionary evangelist, a song leader, something like that.

Those are the more more important kind of higher vocations if you will, right. Yeah. In this minds? Yes.

Yeah. And, and one of the concepts that really spoke to me in this is the whole that the word Apple da, which is that that Hebrew word, which is translated, both work and worship, in the Old Testament. And so as I grew up in Honduras, known for its poverty, and yet, it is a country that is full of resources. It is a country where if you do it right, you can get three crops a year. Wow, it is a country with all sorts of natural beauty. You know, vegetation. I remember, as a kid being told that, you know, if, if Honduras belonged to Israel, it would be the, one of the most powerful countries in the world, the richest country in the world type thing, you know, that whole question about, what is it about the Rio Grande, that north of it, you see, flourishing, and south of it, you see poverty, and that that was one of those subconscious ideas or questions in my mind as to why. And it all comes down to the way of thinking and the way of living. A friend of ours yours, as well says that'd be that wrote the book, the legacy of the Reformation, that really put that into perspective for me. It's just just seeing how they have never gone through the Reformation. They're in Latin America. And so they still have that, that biblical worldview. I mean, the cultural worldview, the sacred secular divide. And so that's why I thought it was so important to bring the Monday church into Spanish.

While we're talking, yep. Oh, I just want the audience to know that Mark led spearheaded the translation of that in an audio version of Spanish. And it's actually now very close to the basics course in terms of popularity with our Spanish speaking, right. So thanks so much. And I

want to just you know, for our listeners that haven't, aren't familiar with the Monday church course, or the basics course, just, I would encourage you to go onto our website, www dot disciple, nations.org. And you can look under our Training link, and you'll find links to these courses, they're free courses. The Monday church course is really about just helping Christians to not have a sacred secular divide when it comes to this topic of vocation. That God calls us into a variety of vocations and gives us a variety of skills, for the purpose of applying those things for His glory and for the blessing of our nations. And what the sacred secular divide has done is it said, there's, you know, these more important vocations pastors, missionaries, these spiritual ones. The Bible applies to them they need to get special Bible trained meaning pretty much everyone else, if you're a carpenter mechanic, farmer, you're in a lower, quote unquote secondary vocation you don't need any special Bible training, the Bible doesn't really apply. And the best you can do is kind of work, earn money and, and give money so that these higher vocations can be supported and do their work. And well, the problem with that, of course, is that, you know, the people that are working in these quote, unquote, lower vocations, they're doing it according to the principles of whatever worldview happens to be dominant in their culture, and they're not really having a transforming impact in their nation. And that's what you were seeing there, Mark in Honduras, so

well, and one of the things that those huge ideas that changed me was the idea, or the the truth of the cultural mandate, I had grown up a Christian and missionary family in the church, and I had never even heard of that concept. I mean, I'd read, I'd read Genesis 126, through 28, many times, but it never really clicked, that that was what gave purpose to work. It gave purpose to life, that it gave purpose to these, the creation around us to the abilities God gave us. And so then the, for instance, my my abilities, as an accountant goes much more deeper than then being able to provide for my family. Yes, that's a very important part of it. But even deeper than that, it it has a divine purpose. It has an eternal purpose, you know. And so when when I heard about the cultural mandate, or cultural commission, and how it relates to the Great Commission, then all of a sudden, it just started making sense, you know, and that is one of the truths that most Latin Americans have have never heard, even though they are Christian, even though they have grown up in the church. And that is one of the things that dissolves that whole divide between the the secular and sacred is, is that cultural commission?

Mark, let me put you on the spot. What's the connection between the cultural commission and accounting? I, we can edit this out.

Actually, it's a huge one, because God is a God of order, God is a God, that He demands an accounting of us. And so because all of us are very, I mean, we have we're all born with a sin nature, we will all tend to cheat whenever we can. We need those accountants. We need those bean counters, as some people like to call us. But but the once again, God is a God of order, God is a God, of just weights, yes, and everything. And so we need people like that. And you know, the, the main characteristics of the kingdom of God, have

a truth, goodness and beauty.

And justice, of course. And so accounting is a large part of that. And it gives confidence to people it gives an as, you know, confidence or just

it, trust, basic trust I can trust.

Yep. Is a is a backbone of society. You can't

start businesses and you can't start businesses, because you can't trust each other your everything breaks down, you don't have a flourishing society. So it is based on real simple things. I love what you're saying, Mark, just basic trust based on kind of this deeper character of righteousness. And the Bible talks a lot about Yeah. The scales, for example, just scales, you know, and God isn't God who isn't bribed. And he's just and so yeah, all of that provides this kind of foundation or underpinning to accounting and why we need it.

As boring as many people may see it, yeah. All right, you guys. You get a

man so that's, that's really terrific. Well, what I love what you did there, Mark, as you you were thinking about accounting biblically, right? You weren't assuming Oh, this is a secular vocation. And so the Bible has nothing to say about it. But you built a theology of You will have accounting from the Bible and talk about to mark to just, you know, I think for a lot of people, they don't understand like you they don't understand the cultural commission. I mean, how would you describe that simply what does that mean? You referenced it, you know, being found in, in Genesis chapter one and two way back at the beginning, but how would you describe that?

Well, when God created all of creation, He placed man and woman as the crown of that, and, and gave them the command to go into make and multiply, and to exercise or to govern over it. And to basically, creation by itself is rather useless to mankind until it has undergone different processes, which we human beings have done. I mean, you take a tree, and you make it into a table, you make it into a chair, you, you take sound, and you make language out of it, you make music out of it. All these things that that we use today is because we have been able to take what God has made. And he has given us incredible abilities to take something and to make something all the more useful. To everyone. And that's part of a culture, that's as part of who we are.

That's created us. That's our first job description in some ways, right?

Yeah, yeah. And it's to bring glory to Him. Right. And, and I think a lot of it does, and a lot of it does not. So. That's right, as we look at different sexualities today.

That's interesting. So many times we think of, yeah, that Dominion mandate serves our needs. But I think that God really enjoys our music, I think he enjoys our language, he enjoys our, the tables we make. And in that way, it does bring glory to Him, and He loves to see us.

I think sometimes it's kind of like, you know, when our grandkids give us a painting that they've made, you know, there's kind of that pride exactly the same time we say, well, it's not very neat. But you know, I imagined that's how God

you know, Luke, Luke, has used the analogy, which I love, as of late of, you know, these, these cooking shows that are so popular now, where you have like a, you know, this beautiful kitchen that's completely stocked with everything, it's spotless, it's stainless steel, you know, the very best, you know, you know, mixers and tools, everything's there. And then here comes the chef, right, and then the chef is going to use all that to make something new, and then hand it to the judges who go Wow, that's incredible. You know, and I just think this is really a great analogy for kind of the way God created things. He created this incredible garden, you know, that was perfect, you know, in all of that, you know, it it had and was and it was beautiful, incredible. And then he puts us, yeah, Adam and Eve and human beings in that garden, not just to go wow, and admire the garden, you know, this is beautiful, but to do something, right to create something, and, and then to offer it up to God and to each other, for their well being and for God's glory. And that first job description now it's been distorted, right, because of the fall, we, you know, we still create, but now we create all sorts of destruction and bombs. And, you know, but then the Great Commission, we don't see the Great Commission as being, you know, preaching the gospel to save people out of this fallen world, but kind of saving people and redeeming people so that they can kind of recover that original job description that God gave us and begin to do that in a way that God intends. And like you said, Mark, it requires all Christians, this isn't just for this, this isn't a job description for just some kind of elite group of Christians, pastors or missionaries. It's for all of us, right? I mean, we all have a role to play in that with all these different skills and talents in vocational areas are important in that so.

Yeah, another one of the concepts that is really spoken to me Colossians 120, where Christ reconciles all things to himself and through the work on the cross, and I'd always consider that to mean all people. But no, it definitely says all things and so that Once again gives purpose to the cultural commission. Yeah. So Mark, you're saying everything we do is for that

these ideas, this broader comprehensive message came to the west through kind of the Reformation and kind of the legacy of the Reformation. And but it hasn't yet come, you said to Honduras and to Latin America, some of these ideas still haven't quite penetrated, do you see that but it's changing sounds like God's doing something right now.

It's so fun to see people from different organizations all starting to speak the same language regarding this. I'm speaking of the the global church, as different groups are starting to come to the same conclusion. You know, it's the same Spirit leading and so that's, that's been a lot of fun. Yes.

Tell, tell us what you've been up to mark, because you've gotten involved with a number of different groups, like you said, and are doing different things. Talk a little bit about that work for a living and some of the work that you're doing there. Just catch us up on kind of what what currently you're God's got your hand on?

Yeah, well, I went to a global forum of DNA. There in in Prescott, Arizona, I forget what year that was. But there was a speaker, there's a member of DNA. Ina Richards, she's the one who heads up work for a living in South Africa. And when I heard that, I was just fascinated. Here's someone who has actually seen fruit in with the unemployed. And so as I heard her story, I thought, man, we just need this. They're in Latin America. And her story is that she and her husband wanted to help the unemployed. So they went to a very poor part of, I believe, is Port Elizabeth, South Africa, and did all the traditional things, you know, that's where you, you teach people's specific skills, and you find them a job so that they can use those skills in the job. You teach someone how to start a business, you give them the seed money, everything to get started, and then everything should work, right. Well, they went back several months later, and saw that everything was back to how it had been before, but it was even worse. And that's when they realized that the problem goes much deeper than a lack of opportunity, a lack of skills, a lack of resource or lack of cash. It goes to an underlying mindset, that breeds poverty. And so they, they now I'm going to say we because we're part of it, developed a three week program to offer to the unemployed. And so the unemployed will pay a small fee to take this three week course, in that, then they are they're challenged, first of all, teach them how to write out their resume, how to do the interview, on the third day, they are challenged to start a small business. And the way that is done, this is fascinating. They give that they divide the class into groups of like five people each, they give a little bit of seed money or loan, a little bit of seed money to that group, like 20 bucks or less. And they have to multiply that in the three week course, or they don't pass the course. And so if they, if they do not show a profit, then they don't pass. And that is huge, because they have been told their entire lives, that they cannot do it, that they are unable to do it that they're worthless, etc. And when they in a three week time, they usually double or triple the initial cash capital. Then something starts to click and the

penny drops. Yes, yes.

And so then, as they then we teach financial literacy and start to show them the way the financial world works and that they are able to make decisions for themselves. That directly challenges that fatalism that so many of them have grown up with that whole idea. I was born poor, I'm gonna die poor, or I'm poor because of racism or because of my parents or whatever. I'm a victim.

There's nothing I can do about it basically, right? Yeah, it's a very Yeah.

And that's huge in some souring worldview, right? Yeah. Yes, it's it's huge in Latin America as well. And work is seen as a as a necessary evil or maybe even a curse, rather than, once again, going back to the cultural mandate. Work is our greatest blessing. It is what makes us who we are. You know, it's, it's, it gives us purpose. And so those ideas that had paralyzed, that part of town for generations was now challenged. Then afterwards we go into work ethic, we go into ethics in general, we go in into worldview, and then life decisions.

So she you did if I could cut you off, she brought, you know, Richard's work for a living as the organization and you can go to their website, I encourage everyone to check out they're doing work now around the world, not just in South Africa, as Mark is involved there in Latin America. But she brought in essentially a basic biblical worldview training into the, into the vocational kind of skills training that you were talking about. And she says, Wow, it really made a difference. And that's what you're talking about their mark, right? And address kind of like this animism, this kind of fatalism, these worldview issues that the skills training wasn't addressing?

Yes. And so after 18 years, they've seen over 30,000 students graduate, and of those 80% of them are now gainfully employed. Wow. That's incredible. 80% 50% of them made decisions for Christ. Wow. And so it's a it's a discipleship tool. And that's the way that we see it. You know, if we were to go to every poor community in the world and turn them around, without bringing them to Christ, we're just going to create terrible communities that in the end will end up beating each other up. Because the gospel is has to be the basis for it.

So you're seeing good fruit in Mexico, and in other places in Latin America? Are you working throughout Latin America with this training mark? Or what's your what's your particular role?

Okay, well, we brought the original course to Latin America, we open two centers up in Mexico. And we saw that the reality in Mexico is much different than the reality in South Africa, and that they have huge unemployment, we have very low unemployment. And so the demand for our courses wasn't at all what we expected it to be. And then one of our greatest blessings was known as COVID. Believe it or not, because it it forced us to change what were our methodology, but also to change from teaching, the employed how to find work, and instead how to start a business and how to grow a business from a biblical perspective. And it also forced us to go online. And so as a result, that during the two years of COVID, we were able to reach over 200 people with this in 13 different countries. And God started bringing along people that saw the potential of this. And that's its second course, in work for living, which is called the wired for business. So that now there's an organization in Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador, using wired for business inside the prison system. And so that they they go to gang members who are in the prison system, they evangelize them, and then give them a tool so that as they are let out of prison, they now have a means of being a source of blessing to their families and communities, instead of being that curse, which they grew up knowing that they were a curse to everyone. And now all of a sudden, through Christ, and through the skills that he has given them, they are a source of blessing. So we now have over 20 people teaching the course in different countries. And so Paraguay, Bolivia, Colombia, Mexico and Central America. And so, my, my main focus was as a teacher, and I'm going to hopefully continue that but it's been more now as organizer and promoter of this. We have started a new program as well called step which is strategy Is to employment productivity, which basically takes the original course and it breaks it down into bite size videos. And so that companies are able to take and disciple their own employees, but it teaches them how they can be excellent employees, it teaches them how they can use their money for their, you know, basically organize their lives. And, and, and we want to bring this into the churches as well. Because the Latin American churches are full of, of people who, they may make money, but they spend it, they usually spend it faster than they make it. I know, you don't see that in the States, right. But, and so we need to bring this in so the churches can be start to be seen as the center of wisdom. How would it be if every church was known as, you know, the, the the center of wisdom for life skills for different things of life? You know, I believe that's the, that's the role that God wanted the church to have from the beginning. Included in that, obviously, his spiritual wisdom.

Yeah, yeah. I love the passage that the New Testament passage that the the role of the church is to equip the saints for, for, for good deeds or works of service. You know, in other words, it's, it's for them in all of their different vocational areas to be able to do it biblically, you know, to do it with, you know, in a way that honors God and reflects his righteousness and His justice. And, you know, I just think, Boy churches all over the world, not just in Latin America, here in the United States, and everywhere they need to, to kind of rethink their mission in that way. You know, we, we need to equip people. To be these, we need to be the center of wisdom that touches on every area of community life. So

yeah, and God has blessed us just with a wonderful team. From the very beginning, there's no way I could have done what I've what I've seen happen, had it not been for. For instance, this one guy, his name is eat Avene. He's a he's a young Mexican, who was trained in, in media in the US. So he speaks English. So he's the one that that helped put everything into Spanish. So it is not seen as a translation from English to Spanish. It is seen as something Latin speaking to Latins. And I love that concept of it.

Mark, I'm curious, you mentioned two courses wired for business and the STEP program, the new one, what what are the cultural issues that the center of those that there that's unique about them, it's uniquely Latin?

It's I wouldn't say it's uniquely Latin, it's more uniquely human in that.

In every issue they're addressing,

it's that poverty mindset. It's that it's that same fear fatalism that we have seen in so prevalent in Africa. We've seen it here in the US in the last several years, where everyone wants to be claimed as a victim. And the problem with being a victim is that you never take responsibility for yourself. And, and you will find no solution until that perceived oppressor does something and so you're in a sense, giving your future away to someone else. Because you see yourself as a victim.

Yeah, it's this idea that if, you know, if my circumstances are really bad, you know, it's somebody else's fault. And, you know, that means the solutions got to come from the person to blame, and I just wait or it's disempowering. I just wait around until they make the decisions to change things. But there's nothing I can do essentially right. It's a really really destructive mindset, you know, and there can there can be truth to it too. I mean, you know, there we live in a fallen world where there are systems of oppression right that we all struggle with, but this idea that you're completely powerless in the face of those is I think this unbiblical idea that that creeps in.

Yeah, have you seen some? I've just wondering if you've seen the light come on for like you mentioned for these people in prison that are learning wired to business do they ever like the lights come on, they Oh my god,

I've heard several testimonies that this one he was in prison because he was he was one of these gang members that would go around and extort, basically go into a store and say, Okay, you need to give me the protection money, or we will come against you. And so he was finally placed in prison, when he heard what it takes to start a business, the risk that people take, he says, All this time, I thought I was taking extra money away from these evil, you know, business owners. And now I see I was taken away their lifeblood. And so he had a huge aha moment, that that he had been a huge curse to all of society. And so he changed. There's, there's another one who he, he learned in the course, that you shouldn't start out with along with a big loan, because then you're under pressure to pay the loan back besides getting the business started and everything. And so as he was set free, one of the things that he wanted to do was to start a barber shop. And so he just started with the basics. And he actually had, like a motorcycle from his earlier life that he sold and everything so that he could start up. And he is now has a successful business, to the same community that he used to be, you know, huge curse for. And so, those are a couple of the testimonies that we've heard there, of how these lives have been changed. There's there's another while he wasn't in prison, but he is a farmer in Mexico, who when his when his wife died, he fell into a deep depression, and everything and move back to the family farm, which was in real disarray and everything. And as he took the course, he realized that God is a God of order. And, and the the whole concept of beauty and goodness and justice, he said, I want my farm to model that. And so I was I had the privilege of actually meeting him in person I had, I felt like I knew him from the all the courses we had taken. But I actually went to his little farm and it's maybe three or four acres at the most. But he, he raises hundreds of chickens. And he, he has a biogas system so that he uses everything from from the manure to. It's interesting, he has a few bowls there. And with a bowl manure, he puts it out so that it attracts flies, and then he feeds the maggots to the chickens. Okay, it's a very high source of protein. Everything that and then he then sells fertilizer he's, he grows earthworms is it's just a fascinating thing. How, because he says, Everything God made has a good purpose. I want to discover what that is. And I'm going to create beauty. I'm going to create goodness out of it.

He sounds like George Washington Carver, for those of you are familiar with the testimony of George Washington Carver. And I've often thought, you know, we're trying to replicate that basic mindset that Carver had all over the world, because he had a very biblical mindset when it came to the creation mandate and just creation itself. So yeah.

Mark, you said at the beginning, you said, the question you asked yourself, is the gospel strong enough to make a difference? And the challenge cultural ideas? What would you say to somebody who may not think that's true?

I think the first thing would be to go through history, because we have seen where the gospel has made a change. You take a lot be saw Mangalwadi has written that one book about the book that has transformed the world something like that. And it goes through different countries that have been impacted by the gospel of Christ. And so I think that's that's one of the the best answers to give it And I encourage people to start in their small community. Don't think of change in the US think of change in, you know, maybe not even your own city, but just your portion of it, and it'll grow.

Big, because it's kind of like that, that the ripple effect, you know,

Jesus talked about the Kingdom of God like a mustard seed, didn't he? So, I love what you're saying there, Mark, you know, this idea that, you know, we can have a big vision. But boy, we need to start small and not, not feel like that's a waste of our time in any way. That's, that's, you know, that's where we begin. And that's, you know, God can honor that and multiply that. So.

Yeah, and I've seen where God brings people alongside and and they will take the vision so much farther than I could ever take it to. So

for sure, well, how encouraging Mark, this is so great to hear what you're doing. And I just want to direct people once again to the ministry work for a living and our friend, Ian Richards. And Mark, is there any other way that people can connect with your work and support you? In what you're doing right now? What's what's a way that people could if they're kind of wanting to learn more and get involved? What how would you direct them?

Well, WGN has a website world Gospel Mission is WG m.org. And, I mean, if you want to support us financially, you can do it online there. If you want to get a hold of me directly, it would be through mark.dunbar@wgn.org. That would be the best way to get a hold of us. And what's really fun with our mission right now, we're going through transition like all mission groups, most of our new missionaries are coming from Latin America. Wow. And so as we think of what, what does a from the world to the World Mission looks like? Work for living DNA, all are huge, huge components of that. Because it is not, we're not here to spread American culture, but rather biblical culture. In which, you know, fortunately, lots of American culture was built on the biblical culture but and so it changes our focus. It's, for me anyway, that this whole DNA concept

Well, Mark, thanks for your you're, you're been such a faithful person and taking these things that we've been able to share through the DNA through the disciple nations Alliance. And then really doing something with it, you know, putting it into practice connecting with other champions and kingdom misers, like Aina, and work for a living and really doing remarkable work. So I just want to really, you know, I just want to thank you, and just acknowledge your faithfulness. And it's exciting to hear some of these testimonies today. So, anyways, thanks,

thank you. It's a huge honor. I've always felt like I'm not good at persuading people. And so I'm just trying to build into the lives of other people that I see that are good at that. Giving them material giving them ideas to speaking into their lives, and God is bringing those people into my life. And so I'm just very, very grateful for what DNA how they have, or you have all spoken into my life.

Well, we love you mark and we love world Gospel Mission it's been wonderful to partner with with this historic mission organization that's got such a legacy of faithfulness all over the world. And so anyways, thanks for thanks again for what you do. And I just want to thank everyone for joining us for another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance.

Thank you for listening to this interview with Mark Dunbar. If you'd like to learn more about Mark and all the resources and ministries that we mentioned in this episode, including w g. M, world Gospel Mission, work for living wired for business or the Monday church course, just tap on the link in the description to this episode, which will take you to the episode landing page. That page also includes a transcript of this episode broken up into chapters, key quotes and shareable social media posts. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations alliance to learn more about our ministry. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and YouTube or on our web website which is disabled nations.org Thanks again for listening and we'll catch you next week here on ideas have consequences