This is thinking cluesive I'm Tim Vegas. If I say the acronym e CTA, does that mean anything to you? What if I say, Early Childhood Technical Assistance Center? Does that ring any bells? On this week's episode, our guests are the CO directors of the EC TA Center. And if you're a fan of Inclusive Early Childhood Education, you're going to love this conversation. After a short break, we'll be right back.
Welcome back to Think inclusive, where each week we bring you conversations about inclusive education, and what inclusion looks like in the real world. I'm so glad you hit play on this episode because for the next two episodes, we are putting a spotlight on early childhood education. And not only that, but Inclusive Early Childhood Education. Here's a little bit about our guests. Christina Casper, Zach is a renowned leader in early intervention and special education. As the director of the Toronto's technical assistance projects at Frank Porter Graham Child Development Institute University in North Carolina Chapel Hill, she has been pivotal in enhancing services for young children and their families. With over 15 years and program evaluation. Christina co directs the ECE TA Center and leads the daisy center, a National Technical Assistance Center that works with states to support Ida early intervention and early childhood special education state programs. She's a co author on guides on cultural and linguistic diversity in early childhood, and is dedicated to promoting anti racist and equitable practices in the field. Her work is instrumental in shaping effective inclusive systems for children with disabilities, ensuring every child and family receives equitable opportunities and outcomes. Dr. Megan Vin is a transformative leader and advocate for inclusive education. At the Frank Porter Graham Child Development Institute University in North Carolina Chapel Hill, she spearheads initiatives to reform early care systems for children with disabilities. As co director of both the STEMI and E CTA centers, Dr. VINs experience and program evaluation drives systemic change towards equity. Her efforts focus on reducing disparities and fostering inclusive environments and early education. a published author and former CEC division early childhood executive board member, her work is a testament to her commitment to equity, and community in early childhood education. In this episode of thinking inclusive, we discussed the importance of inclusive education for young learners with disabilities and how the EC TA Center supports state administrators in developing equitable and effective systems. We also highlight the indicators of high quality, inclusion, and share success stories from communities that have embraced inclusive practices. Before we get into today's conversation, a special thanks to the Early Childhood Technical Assistance Center and the Frank Porter Graham Child Development Institute for collaborating on bringing more content, focusing on inclusion in early childhood education. And now, my conversation with Christina Casper, Zack and Dr. Megan Vin. And stay tuned for free time this week. For a message from self advocate, Hannah Brammer, part of the together we're better campaign brought to you by the arc of Maryland, the Maryland State Department of Education, the Maryland Developmental Disabilities Council, and the Maryland Department of Disabilities.
Christina Casper Zak and Megan Ven, welcome to think inclusive.
Thanks for having us. We're excited to be here. Thank
you. Appreciate being here.
So, Christina and Megan, you are the CO directors for the Early Childhood Technical Assistance Center. And we've already had a couple episodes It's about the EC TA, and kind of previewing what it is. But I'd love for us to start our conversation with what is the best way for listeners to understand what the EC ta does to support educators and families?
Well, Tim, this is Christina and I will answer first, if that's okay with Megan. And I'll just say in the most simple terms, ie CTA supports state administrators who are leading early intervention and preschool special education programs. So they're working on developing more equitable, effective and sustainable state systems, so that every child with a disability in their family have full access and participation in services. And so I'll just back up and say, if we want children and families to have equitable access, and high quality services, we don't just need the teachers and practitioners with the right knowledge and skills and attitudes, but we need our systems to support them in order to doing those effective practices. And by that I'm thinking about the infrastructure. So our state and local administrators work on policies and procedures and funding things like program standards, professional development, other areas of infrastructure, like countability. You know, we need all of these infrastructure areas to support evidence informed practices to be happening at the local level. And so I'll just say, you know, we, as ACTA, help those administrators who are continuously working on making sure those systems are supporting local evidence based practices. Now, before I finish, I want to say we do have some things that are directly for practitioners and families, even though in general, we support the infrastructure. So we have some things like practice guides and checklists, some video materials. So we do have some things that directly support practitioners and families. But in general, we're really trying to build that tool belt for administrators to be supporting the practitioners and families.
Megan, do you want to add anything?
No, I think she hit all the high points. I think I would just say that, you know, really, I know, Christina has said this, but something that actually no, we're gonna get into throughout this conversation, is really thinking, though about at all levels of the system, how do we center equity and inclusion, and make sure that we really are thinking about, even if we work at a systems level, you know, I think that sometimes we feel maybe removed from children and families. But the whole point is to really think about how we can build or enhance or think about the early care and education system in a way that's going to hopefully support implementation of practice, and then really support improved outcomes for kids and families.
Okay, so I have a question about supporting infrastructure. Is, is your connection to, you know, the, I would imagine it's State Department's of education. Is that right? Or who is your main contact in a state, for instance, I live in Georgia, are nonprofit MCIE is in Maryland. You know, we have a number of we have a number of relationships with different state departments of education. Is there like a liaison between the state and E CTA? Or is it less formal than that?
It's it's in general formalized that in the State Department of Education, there's usually somebody in charge of the preschool six night team program. So they are a point, a person, point person that we connect with most often for the preschool special ed. And then of course, we also support early intervention. And so there's a lead agency, and, and that is appointed by the governor. And so the lead agency has a Part C OR early intervention coordinator, and they are our point person for the state II I program.
And they matter complicated, but our systems wouldn't be systems if they weren't complicated. They early intervention system or the foot, you know, folks on birth to two that may or may not be in the Department of Education, often it's not sometimes it's in like health and human services or some other department in the state. Which is why you know, we get into inclusion we're going to talk I think A lot of the things I was thinking about talk about collaboration across the systems.
So yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. In again, I just asked to help clarify. Because when we think about technical assistance, I'm not sure everyone understands what that actually actually means, like. So you have you have we have a national center, we have the center, right, that supports every state. But then exactly how does that what does that support look like? And before we get too far, you said that there are some guides for practitioners and families? Are there any guides on top of mine that are like just really popular that a lot of people access and download?
Yes, actually, the practitioner checklists and guides. And then there's a family guides, companion, those are corresponding to the DEC Recommended Practices. So there's ones on the different areas under dec, so instruction, and assessment. And family, I think it's called family in general, but it's like family engagement. And so there's like a really terrific set that practitioners can use for themselves, and then they can have a companion piece that they can actually hand the family member. That really is something like if you're at the IFSP, or IEP, you may find it appropriate to hand the family member a resource that's short, but has some specific things they might want to do to support their child might be like around social, emotional, or other areas of learning. And it also will have most of them, if not all I can't remember have like a video clip that also goes with them. So it's it's trying to be short and concise and very family friendly. And we're hoping that practitioners will give those two families at like sort of an appropriate time If a family is working on something particular, that that might be a tool or a resource, they can hand the family. Now, of course, families can go on the website and look at for those themselves, which we would certainly encourage. But we also know that they depend on their IFSP and IEP teams to try to point them in the specific area that they are working on or where they might need resources the most.
Okay, great, great. Don't want to cut you off making if you want to say anything else, or we can know it.
Well, either side, because I think we're gonna get into some of the other resources. I've put some other ones in where we have a series attached series. It's a tool, and it's that it's for different levels of the system, but we have a tool for the indicators of high quality inclusion. And I was going to talk about that later. So I don't want to steal the thunder yet.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
I think we'll also maybe talk to there's a, I was gonna put a plug in for we have other centers that are funded through the Department of Education that ACTA collaborates with, that also have resources, like the parent centers are a great resource for families. I'm also the co director of the stem innovation for inclusion in early education or STEMI. Center, which a lot of our resources are for practitioners and families, and really thinking about how you can do practical and inclusive stem within your routine within what you're already doing. And so we could share some of those to that you could link or however that works within the podcast. Okay. Okay, great.
What I would like to know next. I'd love to know why inclusive education for young learners with disabilities is important to you, both of you, you know, we get into this work, typically, because it's a passion of ours. And so, I'd love to know who you know, who'd like to go first answer that question. Megan, you
want to go first on
this? Yeah. Yeah. Well, so you made me think, you know, I had I had thought about some things related to this question. I know before. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna digress a little. So I think I often think about myself, if I'm thinking about my personal journey, you know, how I really came to this field. I had a grandfather that had polio, and my younger sister when she was born was two months premature and and a trach and feeding tube. And so for me, I think disability has always just been a part of my life. Right? It's it's an important part. And so as I was really thinking about this question, I was kind of coming at it from you know, clusion is a human right. And I think it's really critical because the alternative is exclusion. Right. And I think, you know, I could share all the benefits of inclusion for both children with disabilities and children without, and there are a lot of benefits, right, that have been documented through research and experience. And they've been documented, I think, for a really long time. But I do one of the things I was thinking about, as I was looking at this question before, is sometimes I think we're asking the wrong question. Because as educators and practitioners, whatever you want to say, as a society, I think we should be asking why we are so comfortable with exclusion, and with allowing ableism and racism to continue to grow and thrive within our early care and education environments. And so I often think about the question is like, how do we change our system and practices to really ensure each and every child with a disability feels belonging within our communities, and that we're really making sure we're centering those that have been most harmed within our system? And so anyway, so that was where I sort of went is really thinking about, like, for example, we know that black children with disabilities are the least likely to included. So how do we change that question, so that it's not about defending? Why are we not we should do inclusion, but really saying how do we make change, and ensure we stop doing harm to children and families that we serve and making sure that we're getting at, we're no longer going to exclude that inclusion? It's just our way of being. So that was sort of what I thought about as I said, this question,
I love that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, great answer. Megan.
Follow that up, Christina.
Yeah. Well, I, um, I would approach this question from a personal sense, as well, I, I'll just start by saying, I just fundamentally believe that each of us desires and deserves to feel valued, having meaningful connection with others, and to feel that sense of belonging. And so if you start with that, I think, you know, we do know from research that inclusion benefits all children, children with disabilities, and children without disabilities. So helping everyone have that sense of belonging and connection. You know, I feel like that fundamental belief of mine also comes from my upbringing, I was really lucky enough to have parents who valued all people and served really as role models for me and my sisters with regard to building friendships, you know, with folks who are different than us, and treating everyone in our community with respect, and I know, my parents were also strong believers in education as this critical path to opening your mind, as well as opening opportunities for success and happiness in life. So just circling back to thinking about the importance of inclusive education, you know, I think how it offers opportunity, long term for success and happiness in life. But short term re in that moment, it offers that human connection, the opportunity to have friendship, and community and belonging with everyone in that classroom, or whatever environment are served in. And I just think that's a fundamental right, like Megan said, and it's something we need to offer each and every child, both children with and without disabilities.
Thank you for sharing that. Something This is making me think of, you know, when I was a classroom teacher, in, you know, in the day to day, working in schools and with with children, and a believer in inclusion and inclusive practices. A lot of times, I felt alone, right, I felt like I was the only one talking about inclusion in my building, the way that we are talking about it. And so whoever's listening, I just want to, I just want to direct them and kind of focus that here we have co directors of a National Technical Assistance Center, that are talking about inclusion and belonging, and how we can restructure our systems to benefit all learners. And I feel like that's a huge win. And in that, the thing is, is, you know, the people that I've talked to that are at the national level, around special education, often are talking about inclusion and equity and education for all in these terms. So If you're out there feeling like you're alone, you're not, you're not. And you also have partners in this thinking, and that are really trying to make change, so. So thank you for sharing your your hearts. With regard to that. I really appreciate it.
Tim, can I add since you brought that up? Yeah, I was thinking about, again, then about the infrastructure. And that's because I think a lot of people when they think that the special ed, or early intervention isn't maybe working, right, are they, you know, they think about let's train practitioners. And I don't mean that the training for the providers and teachers isn't important. But they don't necessarily think about, well, maybe those people know exactly what to do. But they have barriers that are like, well, we can't get paid for doing this, which is best practice, or we don't have the right policies to support us going into, like professional getting paid for professional development. Or, you know, there's a bunch of ways that that system has to support practitioners that may have all the rate, knowledge and skills and attitudes. And that's where like that system, infrastructure can sometimes be a barrier. So you know, speaking to those who are in a classroom, or in a setting where they feel alone, it may be that they know what to do, and they maybe we need to work on raising up, what are the barriers to your local administrators about what's preventing you from doing what you know, is best for kids and families?
Meagan? Yeah. And I was thinking, as you're talking to, you know, I think that's a really important point you made to about like, how you can feel it can be really disheartening, and you can feel like you're on an island by yourself. And, and I know, as I think about what's worked, right, it's like finding your community or people that are really going to be at the at the core saying we center this, how do we do it? Let's problem solve these barriers? Because I think it's never going to be a perfect system, right? I think, like, if it was, or we have had to do it, we would have done it. Right. But But I really think it's about and I love that you said this, because I know I even think sometimes I know, Christina, we've talked about this, and I've talked about this with other colleagues, like, how do we find those people that are willing to sort of work together around this and problem solve it. And hopefully, we can then move out to all the, you know, all the people who maybe aren't as excited about inclusion as we are. But I still think there's this way of like really finding those people and really building up that collaboration. And that's really important. And I love what you said that for folks listening. You know, there are lots of people, I think, who are doing this work, and how do we come together to really say this is what we just should be doing. And not that we have to defend it or continue to keep saying, Well, this is why it's great. But to say this is just what we should be doing. And let's create a system that just is that. And I know Christina, we always talk about it that we recognize, we don't know what that looks like, right? Because we have never had adjust or fully inclusive or fully equitable system. And so that's why it's really important that we do this work together. And why collaboration is so critical to this work and finding those systems and people who are going to be there to do it with you.
Might be a perfect opportunity to also share. You know, as Megan said, we have partners all over the country. Some of them are ta partners, but also like the Division for Early Childhood, the Council for Exceptional Children is a perfect tome for practitioners and teachers and providers who want to work together to say, what is high quality inclusion look like? What kind of strategies are you using? What barriers are you running into? And how are you dealing with that? And so there's a and I think, first divisions within most states and so there's the national Division for Early Childhood. But then there's also chapters is that what it's called Megan and each state
Yeah, I can't remember if it's chapters or what your state
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
With the With your work in the CTA, are there particular bright spots across the United States with regard to early childhood inclusion? Yeah,
yeah, I love this question because I think sometimes we can get mired in what it is, which is important, right in the lack of change and growth. I mean, in early childhood, the data hasn't changed in a really, really long time, on inclusion, yet, we know that there are places who are really doing good work. So I love that you're talking about the bright spots. And I think there are lots of, you know, one of the things we're seeing is, don't care me saying the state's not important because we work with states. And I think the state level is really important. But communities are really where the rubber seems to hit the road and how we can help people, within communities to come together to embrace inclusion, I think that's where we're seeing a really bright spot. And so what we're seeing is, you know, like public preschool and special education, childcare, Headstart, or whatever the programs are within your community, are coming together, that that allows them to also really think about how they can problem solve some maybe really big issues, but there are some leverage points there. And so like, for example, maybe we were seeing communities who are using funding in different ways not in, you know, so we wrong, we would love to increase funding, I think that's important. But that's one of our, I think one of the myths is that inclusion is more costly, it's not more costly, we just have to use our funds and maybe different ways. And so like, for example, how we may be stopped buffing kids between programs and find ways to bring services to our kids are. So I digressed a little but at ACTA, and now he said this earlier is that we've developed these indicators of high quality inclusion. And there are four sets, there's the State Community local program, and then what we've called the early care and education environment indicators, which are sort of the classroom practices or what you do with kids and families. But I think one of the things we heard when we were developing them is that not everybody calls themselves a classroom. And so how do we really make sure that everyone sees themselves in the conversation and that we're using the right language. But in any case, the State community and local programs sort of show what infrastructure is needed to ensure that we're implementing those early care and education, environment indicators, or those inclusion classroom practices. And so I wanted to share that we've worked with a couple of states who have utilized these indicators. And again, the communities have really, the states have done some amazing work to really think about what their communities need. But we worked with Illinois and Oregon, and their communities have made some really great gains. And actually one of the things I thought I could share is one of the communities in Illinois actually hosted a series of podcasts that really shared their journeys. And so that might be something that's really important that we could share with listeners is how they access some of those podcasts because they shared some of the work that they did, as a community to problem solve. And then the other thing I wanted to mention, and again, there are lots of great programs. So I don't want to say that there aren't. But I wanted to really share that there's this really awesome program in Denver, called the Rive School of Denver, who's really fully committed to inclusion, it's part of their mission and vision. And in doing that work, they've really centered children with disabilities as part of their approach. And I know one of the things we've seen in our field is everyone's probably facing is we're facing huge turnover. And even in the face of that turnover, because they've put some systems and processes in place, and coaching, it is ensured that their inclusions continue to thrive, even in the face of that turnover. And so I could go on and on, because I think there are lots of bright spots. But I think the most important message is that when it's something we value, we will do it right. Because there's always going to be challenges and barriers to anything we do in early childhood or anything we do and school age. But I think if we really try to value it, it's like the curb cut effect that really thinking about being proactive on inclusive design means we all I'm gonna say quote unquote, win is that we all really get what we need. If we start with really centering the children we have most, most excluded is what I would say.
I was wondering if it might be interesting to just share a little bit like if you're looking at the early care and education and environment indicators, we're talking about scenes, like what do providers do around things like family partnerships? So how are you creating an environment for two way communication with families? How are you involving families in activity These according to their desire and ability, so family partnerships is something social emotional learning and development, meaningful interactions with peers, and we have like, really kind of specific activities or that, that practitioners or providers can do related to teaming and, and supporting dual language learners, all of those kinds of things. And then, as Megan said, the other community and local system and state system indicators relate to what they're doing to support those things with policies with funding, you know, with standards. So anyways, so there's some really practical items in there that can be used to self assess how am I doing, as well as to say, like, Oh, these are some specifics that I can do or we can do as a team. So I think those are very practical tools that that can be used, as Megan said, at all different levels of the system. And
I think the hope is, that also we don't put it all on the backs of practitioners and families, right? It's how do we really showcase that there are things we need to put in place to make sure that you can do that you can effectively serve all the children and families within your within your community. And so like, I think I was going back to what you said earlier about, like you can feel alone, sometimes it's because we make the onus on the teacher or on the family to just know, what they don't know. Or to do stuff without any support. And so I think that's really one of the things we hope comes with the indicators is showcasing that it really is part of a bigger system. And we hope people will use the practices, like you said, Christine, the really practical, we just did a revision that should be out. I'm gonna say fingers crossed by the end of this year, that really one of the things we did is we knew that we implicitly had things around equity embedded, but now it's explicit. So you'll see some more things have been added. Really around, I want to highlight like identity affirming practices, like how can we make sure that every child really feels like they belong in our classroom, and that we see them for who they are versus maybe who we want them to be? And so I really think there's some things around that that have been included that are going to be really important within this conversation as well.
I want to circle back to the what you said about the district in Illinois, the podcast, so if you can, you know, just send me or give me the name of the it's it's not East Moline? Is it?
No, hold on, let me find I actually had it up. And now I've it looks like I've shut my tabs. So nothing we're doing right now, but I will find
it and send it to you. Yeah, just yeah, you can just send it to me. And then that way we can include it in the resources, links in the in the show notes. And then the same thing for the school in Denver, the so the rice school is, aren't those schools? Like? Aren't there different ones in different states? Because I believe there's,
I think so rise
in Austin.
Yeah, I'm gonna be honest, I don't know actually how they're connected. But I do. Because I've worked more with or I work with, we have a partner from one of the folks in Denver. And they, again, if I'm not that I'm promoting all this other work, but they were one of our study sites as well. I don't know exactly how they're all connected. But I do know that the one in Denver, and probably others are really doing some amazing work that is showcasing and they've allowed us I'll say, like, forced me to capture some videos on what what does it really look like to be inclusive? Right. And I think it is our way of being right. It's like about normalizing supports that, like we all require support. So you know, as an adult, it's not about saying, like, how do we wean kids off the support? So they're fully independent? Because that's not reality, right? I think about even as I'm having this conversation with you, I have my fidgets and all the things that I use to make sure that I'm, you know, focused and paying attention. And I think they've just done an amazing job. I think it really showcasing what it could look like to be inclusive. And how it looks like to truly center it, even if things are hard and you have challenges and you know, like part of that is like having those conversations that maybe make people feel uncomfortable and really being a part of that system. So anyway, I would I can't sing their praises enough. And actually, if you think about it, we could give you names maybe folks who might come onto your podcast and she does some of the work they're doing. They're really great work.
Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. I'd love it. So in your experience with working with, you know, state and district leaders, what do you think would be like the most effective strategy on how to have a system and move towards inclusive practices?
You know, something that came to mind is like, you were talking, I think, and I know, we've we've sort of said this, and I, as I think the more we can dismantle the silos we have, and an early care and education system, that's going to be really critical, you know, we have, like, our funding streams, and that are different, our people are different. They're in different, you know, programs departments. And I think we're seeing that that system is really making it challenging at the end of the day for kids to get what they need, where they already are, you know, whether that is their childcare Headstart. And so I think that's one thing is like, how do we continue to educate for some of the like, asking states and systems to really think about how they d silo. But I think the other part of your question, and I don't know, if I'm jumping, I was thinking a lot about your question related to advocacy, which I think is part of this. And the importance of like, you were saying, you know, families and and self advocates have done, you know, really, there's a power there. I think there's it's an or there have been right, like, that's how we got the Americans with Disabilities Education Act, and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act is people advocated. And so I was thinking, though, about as part of your question is also how do we make sure that we're thinking about families of children with disabilities, and how we're thinking about people with disabilities, and making sure that they have a voice right in this conversation. And really listening to what they say is the way we should move our system, I think, we don't pull disabled advocates in enough to these conversations and people with disabilities. And so really, that, to me, is one of the things that we miss a lot within our state efforts, is that we, or even in our community efforts is how do we make sure that people with disabilities are involved? And I think you'll see that in the indicators, that's one of the things we really strengthened was making sure that as you're developing teams, you're you're pulling in people, people with disabilities who have gone through our systems, and no one needs to change that we maybe aren't listening to. And I think the last thing I'll say, I'm sure, so the last thing I'll say, but the last thing for this question that I'll say, is also, how do we really get to a system that doesn't require you to know what you don't know. And that requires the onus be on families to just know and figure it out. And so I keep coming back to like, that's why it's so important to pull in disabled advocates and others who could help say how the system could change, because we have made it so that we require a great deal from families of children with disabilities is that you have to know what you don't know. Like, you have to know how to get services where you have to know to push for inclusion, or you have to know where like, you know, all these great resources are they can help you advocate for why inclusion is important isn't important. And so like, how do we really put the onus back on the system to stop maybe blaming individuals, and really as a as a state or a local program? Or I would say at the federal level, there's a place for that there, too. Is is really looking at why do we continue to exclude so many kids and really think about what it would look like not to do that? I think yeah.
All right. I was thinking about a couple things, too. I love what you said, Megan. So I'll see if I can add anything of value. I was thinking about how do we empower everybody to lead from where they are us. So there's not leaders and non leaders in the state. It's like you are a leader from wherever you are. And I I'll reiterate what Megan said about family leaders and family advocacy groups, and how powerful those can be for for making sure that their kids and all kids have opportunity and engagement and are included with their peers. I would say that practitioners need to see themselves as leaders and if everybody's not doing what you're doing, how is it that actually maybe you're ahead and you find to others who are actually leaders in the field and helping to pave the way. I would say the system, as we've been talking about was not designed for all kids. It wasn't designed for kids with disabilities, it actually wasn't designed for black and brown children. It wasn't designed for multilingual learners. And so we are trying to think about how do we rethink about a system that actually welcomes and engages all of these children. And so it really does take us to be leading from wherever you sit, whatever your strengths are, whatever your position is, how are you moving this forward? And just thinking about the system, the siloing, the partnering, the advocacy, and also we have to advocate for funding, we have to advocate for fully funding, the federal level, local level, what what is it that makes sure we have the resources, people and funds to implement what we know is quality for for kids and families?
I know so I said that was the last thing I would say. But I lied. I do think something that I was thinking about as we talk about systems change, also is how do we really, what does it really look like to sort of confront the ableism in our system? You know, I mean, that is a huge part of this, you know, M ableism, and racism within our system. And so for me, really, like I think that's going to I just keep coming back to how do we, as a system, really look at that, and like we want to offend, we want to go towards inclusion, but we're going to have to have some discomfort around really, like you said, Christina looking at who was our system created for? And how do we recognize that it was kriebel created with really ablest and racist roots, and that those continue to thrive. And so part of that is going to be, and I think in a really good way, right? Like you're not growing if you're not uncomfortable and learning. So part of it is us really coming together to look at and really question like, why are some of these things set up the way they are? And how do we change them? Because it doesn't have to be this way, right? It's this way, because it's always been this way, not because it actually has to be the way the system functions. Nothing is that hard. So don't hear me say that gets it's definitely going to be hard. But I think it's, you know, time that we use the words, right, we use ableism and racism, and really make sure that we're thinking about how we make changes to our system.
You know, sorry, maybe we're just interrupting too much, Tim. But I was just thinking this circles back to one of the things Megan and I were both saying at the beginning of the interview, and that is inclusion is good for all kids. And so I don't want parents or practitioners or principals or wherever to think by doing inclusion, we're helping the kids with disabilities and not all kids. That's one of the things that there's there shouldn't be the fear of that it actually is great for learning and empathy and development and friendship for all of these kids. And so I think there's some times that's a myth that it's only good for the kids with disabilities. And I think that could really help change attitudes and help people really invest more in understanding we want what's best for all of our children.
It's the curb cut effect, right? Like I think, I don't know if our listeners you may or may not know the curb cut effect, but you use them every day, you know, those cuts that are in curbs, when you grow, go up to a crosswalk. You know, those were advocated for with people with disabilities, right? And how often do we all use curb cuts, and they make our lives easier, right. And so I think your points really important, Christina, that helps all of us because we've designed for people with disabilities. We've designed it we proactively and intentionally designed that way. And everybody uses curb cuts all the time, if you and maybe that's we can share some resources on that too. But I think that's a really important reminder is when we design for people with disabilities, it helps us all it's not just for, you know, a lot of those practices that we have in our indicators of high quality inclusion. I think when we talk to people, either from or just good practice, right, we should be making kids and families feel like they belong in our systems with or without disabilities, right. So when we're using those practices and centering that, that really does benefit everyone.
So what I'm hearing y'all say is if you are a educator or a, you know, I love Christina, you talked about, you know, everyone is a leader everyone everyone can lead where they are. I encourage everyone who is interested in what the CTA does is to take a look at those quality indicators. Do you know a self assessment to figure out well, how is my community doing on these areas, and then share that with maybe someone who can do something about that if you feel like you can't do something about that, but alone, share that with a director or somebody at the school district or you know, at the, at the center that your your learner goes to or that you work at? And what let's see what we can do about changing things. Yeah,
like we all have a sphere of influence, right? There's work on that we talked about that a lot. As you were saying, Christina, sometimes we feel like we hold limited power. And it goes back to what you're saying. But feeling maybe like you're alone. But we all have a sphere of influence, there are ways that we can create change, doesn't have to just, you know, like you said, it doesn't have to be like the biggest change ever. There are ways within your sphere of influence or where you are in the situated that you can make change. And so I love what you're saying about, you know, there are ways for you to look at these resources, and share them with other people who maybe you feel like like you said, a director or principal who maybe has more power, or to think about what are your own practices and how you make change. So I really love that everybody has some type of influence from wherever they're situated.
Right after a short break the mystery question.
Would you choose a shorter life and be super rich? For a longer life? A think this is a thick this this is this grammar is wrong? Would you choose a shorter life and be super rich, or a longer life and be somewhat poor?
It's so funny. That one's so easy. But it's so funny.
Because my son has been asking me these types of questions. And this is why No, really? I don't know. Yeah. And this is where one of the questions he asked. He did not like my answer. But because I was like, my husband and I also both answered this, but it was like I think I don't know which which would you pick Christina? I can remember what I said. I like the idea of be rich, I'm not gonna lie. But I also don't know how short your life how short are we talk in short,
it just says shorter.
I said, additional questions I had for like, a longer life and be poor and eventually make more money. Like what are these are the questions that we asked him? And it
also says some what poor so I think it's relative, like if you live in the United States, right? You live if you live at the poverty line, you're still richer than like the majority of the world. So yeah.
Well, I might for me, it's easy, although I could see someone figuring out how a shorter life and fun with money could be better. But for me a longer life and being poor or somewhat poor. It means that so for me, the most important thing in my life is spending time with family. So I think that is being rich. And I also think a longer life means opportunity for personal spiritual community growth. And so the only way I could ever pick rich would be I would end up donating all that money to support other people, and then I would be poor again, so I'm not quite sure how that would work for me. Sorry.
That's a you answer for sure. I know. I think I agree. I think I would pick those longer life because I also think it misses Why my son hated all my answers was because change is kind of our only constant, right? So so being able to see growth and change and like you said, spend time with family and friends. I'm assuming their life would also be longer is maybe the hope as well. Um, and then there is always opportunity for change and growth. So for me, I think I would agree with you, I'd pick that, although Microsoft didn't like all the caveats that I had, but I do agree with you, I think that would be important. Yeah, yeah.
Yes. Yes. And I would agree with both of you longer life, even though, you know, it would be somewhat poor. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, not to get not to get all deep and heavy here. So I apologize. But when I think about, like, end of life, and, you know, you know, whether or not that is scary or not, I think the biggest thing that I think about at you know, about the end, you know, my life is that I won't know what happens after, you know, like, like, in a, you know, anyways, it's just something that I've always I've talked about this with my friends. You know, it's, it's not so much the dying part. But although that does, you know, the unknown and all that stuff, but like, you know, that I won't know, like, what happens 100 years from now, like, what else? You know, what new innovations and what new things happen? And like how far our inclusion advocacy will go, and like, you know, like, what will happen? Yeah, so I like knowing the end of the story. And so that bothers me a little bit. So the longer I can have the store as long the longer I can have the better. So fear
of missing out right, that that fear of missing? Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate it.
Christina Casper zag Megan van, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Thanks for having
that time means it's free time. This week, I wanted to share a message from Hannah Brammer, who talks about her experience growing up with a disability. This is originally from a video produced. For the together we're better inclusive education campaign from the arc of Maryland. Here's Hannah.
Together, we're better from the arc Maryland. Inclusion is the act or practice of including and accommodating people who have historically been excluded as because of their race, gender, sexuality, or ability.
So hi, my name is Hannah brahmer. I am 20 years old, I was born with osteogenesis imperfecta, also known as a Y. I'm from Baltimore County, and I live with my family.
What is osteogenesis imperfecta.
So osteogenesis. imperfecta is a developmental disability where our bones are fragile. They're very fragile, especially when you're younger, when you get older, as far as, like in my case, when I get older, my bone strengthening, which is good, so I don't fracture as much, but I'm still prone to factoring. Yes, I'm in a dangerous environment.
Growing up did you attend public school.
Growing up, I was able to go to all public schools with the assistance of an aide to help me with heavy books and doors and whatever else I needed help with. And I went to one in elementary, Windsor Middle Middle School in Owings Mills High School. And I did also do home tutoring, when I was able to, like not go to school, physical school due to my affections.
Did you have a lot of friends in school?
Yes, I have friends, it wasn't too hard to make them or have them. My closest friends they understood about my disability and they didn't allow that to make our friendship any different. So yeah, in elementary school, I did take a gym class. And since I wasn't able to I had a commendation, where I went into a separate room with a few of my friends. And since I wasn't able to do the vigorous activities they could do. I played the week and did like Wii Sports where I did bowling and golf and tennis. And I beat my friends in bowling all the time. And my friends they didn't mind they wanted to join me all the time, to the point where my teachers had to say like, oh, pick somebody else. Like because I kept picking them because they always wanted to play the week with me they prefer to do that. But besides the like activities the ELA class was doing. What
can students in schools do to make sure Ron is welcomed and feels included what students in
schools can do to get people with disabilities involved in their environment. Just pay attention to engage me, make sure you're engaging with them. As you're doing something, include them to they may want to do it as well. If you're in a class and participation is going on, at STEM, what's your response to the question? You know, get them involved and make them feel like they're wanted and they're not like rest out. And then also too, if they have a physical disability, make sure you're paying attention to accessibility, make sure things are, you know, suitable for their needs. And if they're in a wheelchair, with this physical disability, make sure things moved up the way and everything like that.
How do I talk to someone about their disabilities?
Don't assume anything you want to make sure you ask somebody if you curious about the disability, because you never know what people are going through, or what they have. So you'd never want to assume always X it's okay to ask. What else do
you want students to know about people with disabilities?
Make sure you recognize that people are people first and that their disability, the disability is secondary. You never want to define someone from the disability. So always remember, that people serves and we also want to have a good life, just like everybody else. We want good friendships, relationships, to be included and feel loved. But with disabilities did not ask for disability. It's not up to them. It's just their lives. You have to you know, let's let's see, some differences can be seen in others cannot you can't always see it's not like visible to the eye. And then also finally, the number one thing is to be kind to everyone because you never know what they're going through.
Want to learn more about school inclusion from people with disabilities scheduling online presentation by contacting Sharon doles at s stoles at the ark md.org. You can also learn more about together we're better on our website at WWW dot the ark md.org. Together we're better is brought to you by a partnership between the aarC, Maryland, the Maryland Department of Disabilities, the Maryland Developmental Disabilities Council, and the Maryland State Department of Education.
That's it for this episode of thinking cluesive a huge shout out to the EC TA Center for collaborating on this episode. Next week we will learn from educators in Oregon about how they are prioritizing Inclusive Early Childhood Education to benefit all learners. Think inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed and mastered by me Tim Vegas is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, Original Music by miles credit, additional music from melody and a very special thank you to Imogen she might be one of the only family members that listens to my podcasts. Thanks for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works
there we go. I got this new phone. And I literally don't know how to turn it off. Like with my other phone. I other phone I could just hold the power button. And it turned off and this one I have no idea so Well Tim,
I just wanted to let you to know that you're making me feel less stressed because I don't know how to do this. What so far you had us a frog in your throat or your phone ring. So I'm like okay, I think I can let's say you're doing that intentionally to make us smarter.
Listen, I'm I'm a professional podcaster okay, I do this for a living MCIE
