Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the all the things ADHD podcast.
Oh, the themes. All I Want For Christmas things.
Things, all the things. Oh.
Did you know my carry has a Christmas special?
Yes. Yeah.
Have you seen it?
No, I haven't seen it yet. It's.
It's a lot of God bless Mariah Carey. She's doing her own thing. Yeah, the plot is ridiculous. The outfits are amazing. I believe that she's contoured her boobs. I've had ample time to look at them ample, if you will, while watching this special subtitle Mariah saves Christmas. I highly recommend it if you're in the mood for some absurdity and wholesomeness.
Oh, nice. There's actually a, there's a podcast that I listened to. Called 60 songs that explained the 90s Yeah, it's really good. And again, it's it's it's not quite our 90s Having grown up in Canada, because there's a whole thing about 90 like rock and music and 90s in Canada that have slightly, but I mean, the first the first episode is about Alanis Morissette. And like Celine Dion shows up in there so it's like it sort of shows also the how Canadian artists sort of got over the Rubicon and hit it big in the United States at that point. But anyways, they do have an episode on All I Want For Christmas Is You amazing, and it gets into but it also, you know, like living your own life she was her marriage was really abusive. And and so how that song I don't remember if it was towards the end of her marriage, or just afterwards, and there's like this exuberance to it that yeah,
I bought Tom Mariah Carey's auto biography or her memoir for Christmas last year, and then we both read it. And like, I will say like, straight up Mariah Carey is not the style of music I prefer to listen to like, you know, this sort of female operatic voice that sounds like whistling is like not my jam, but like mad props to Mariah for getting through her life and her childhood and her marriage and the personal growth she's able to have in her musical talent is undeniable. And that song is you know, it's hard to write in this day and age, a Christmas song that breaks through the clutter and becomes a standard right and I think her song is becoming a standard and it's
no it's become a standard she makes like a million dollars every year Sure, or something like that just from the plays on Spotify or whatever it is and don't make any money on Spotify anyway, it's
gonna be like one of those songs that like another 50 years people won't remember who recorded it originally, but the song will still be Yeah, like on this sort of Jazz Playlist dinner party stuff forever. Yeah, yeah, that's my prediction asked me get him 50 years
Yeah, and that talking about bonkers Christmas specials we'll get to our topic but like at Duke launched the probably have you seen a very Merry Christmas the one with oh my gosh, every year yes. Now is that a classic now like it is just ballers but it is a classic?
Yes, I make myself a very stiff drink to go with that. And we sort of lean into the snowed in New York. Poor Chris Rock what's going on? Christmas special just because it's got like Charlie Brown has got that little touch of Yeah, of sadness, as well as wimzie on heart, and I really, really love it. I think it's a wait and
watch this. And this is another one of those like, say what you will about Miley Cyrus but man can she sing like a silent night every time chills just like well,
here's an interesting Miley Cyrus fact for you. I was reading recently that one of the reasons that she can't stand to listen to Party in the USA anymore, much like me is that she she says at the time her record company was pushing her to sing in this more feminine way. Right and this falsetto which of course she can do, but her natural range where she's most comfortable, like what you see and like sort of like her viral recordings of things like Jolene and stuff is much lower, like she's a much lower growling, natural singing register. And so she's one of the reasons she doesn't like those early recordings are not because she doesn't like the songs necessarily, but that she was being produced in such a way as to have to sing outside of the vocal range that made her feel that it was authentic to herself, right. Yeah. So in some ways, we might say Miley Cyrus was masking in order to present an appropriately gendered front. And yeah,
speaking of nice transition, very well done, like you brought that around. We have
Yeah, we did a slot
machine handle Something unexpected and relevant came out.
Yeah, it's amazing. Um, I am one of your co hosts Lee Skallerup Bessette.
I am another one of your co hosts, Amy,
the digress or Morrison did call them. I call them side quests now.
Yes, I love that right side quest.
So that, so that does transition nicely. So what we wanted to talk about today is in our last podcast, we did mention how we had been have we gotten a number of flurry of all all at the same time. very complimentary messages about our blog. What was one of them? That was like Christmas morning? Yeah,
cuz they're dealing with a kid on Christmas.
Yeah. Which like, I was just like, Oh, my goodness, this is so wonderful. And I was, I was really reflecting on that. And anyway, and I were messaging about it. And I just said that it's like we are, we said this way in the beginning, right, that we wanted to make a podcast that we would like to listen to. And there, there aren't very many podcasts by women. They're out there, like this. And by out there like this, I mean, slapdash unscripted, lots of side quests, and digressions and swearing that and swearing Oh, yeah, and the swearing. And you know, and it was just, it was really interesting. Because if you had the experience, because you, when we started this, we both went all in, in our own ways, I learned how to podcast you listen to podcasts, your big takeaways, from listening to existing podcasts about on for ADHD,
they're not exciting, right, like everybody talks too slow. Right. And every everybody is reading from a script that they have in front of them. And people are kind of like deferential to topics, and answers. And these like podcasts are often very nicely organized around one theme, and like, three research papers have been read or like a list of bullet point things to do. And it was just like, not chaotic. Yeah, it felt a lot like sort of the advice, industrial complex, where it's like deference to authority, and like, we're gonna neatly wrap this up in 30 minutes, and like, we're gonna present a problem and then a solution from this kind of, like, research perspective. And what I am more interested in is hearing about people's real lives, right? I wonder, like, how do you get through the day, not like, you know, this is what the experts say, like, I know what the experts say, I read the experts, like I want to know, like, where the rubber hits the road. And I also want people to talk quicker, and have a broader range in their voices than like, six notes on the scale or four notes on the scale. You know, like, people don't vary their volume, and they don't vary the pace. They don't laugh about stuff. And it doesn't feel spontaneous. It feels very, like, gah, all the stuff that makes me sleepy.
Yeah. And I mean, so I and then what I noticed is we're having a city that that is that I never liked talk radio, right? Like I never I didn't grow up listening to like the CBC in Canada or, and I've never been a big fan of NPR, because of that sort of NPR toe, right. And some people find it very soothing. I find it very boring. Whereas I A like listening to music stations, but loved the morning circus. Right? The morning circus show where it is, you know, it's scripted, they have ideas for bits, but then you just don't really know which direction it's gonna go. They go on digressions, people call in, you have no idea what those people are gonna say, when they call into the show. They just, I always love that. And that is also reflected in the podcasts that I enjoy listening to, which are almost all Paki podcasts, hosted by men, um, where there's that same vibe of like that, you know, I listened to one and called puck soup. And literally the theme song is like, we talked about hockey, but also anything else that we seem to, you know, want to talk about at that time that we think of. And, you know, it's, it's, you know, that I enjoyed that I kind of liked that chaotic energy, but there are a lot of podcasts like that posted by women, or, or about ADHD, for that matter. There aren't a whole lot of ADHD podcasts either. It's, it's nice, let's be honest, but
it's it's pretty niche.
It's pretty niche. It's kind of Yeah,
I mean, I think what you liked about the the morning circus and those other podcasts is like, exactly what I was missing from these ABG podcasts that I had been listening to, was the sense of you don't know what's gonna happen next. Right. The sense of kind of chaos which, you know, sort of produces more alertness, right? It's, it's like the bear that's chasing you. It's the whole you're about to fall down. Right or jump out of as the case may be right. Like it's, it's, you feel like it's down and then jump out of it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So those those types of those types of media feel like if you actually jump out of your chair to go grab something out of the bedroom, you may have missed something. Yeah. Right. And that's a lot like what we were talking about about our neurodivergent hangovers, too is like how adept we are at kind of surfing waves of increased attention and increased confusion. Right. So in some ways, it's it's pleasurable to like just sort of be like grabbing on to this cars fender, right as it drives away, and you're trying to maintain your grip, so you can keep up like there's just something a little bit more engaging, because I know sometimes I listen to podcasts, even podcasts I quite love. But just sometimes I'll be walking and I will have to stop and go back about six or seven minutes in the podcast, because I realized, like, even while these two people are talking through headphones directly into my brain, I have started thinking about something else up to the point where I don't know what's happening. Yeah, no, I have that that experience as well. Yeah, as a listener, and as people who produce podcasts, you and I, we like the challenge and the adrenaline and the focus that comes from showing up Fridays at 1pm. Unless I cancelled because of something I forgot about. And then just turning on the recording, and trying to make a podcast on the fly, right? It gives us like, I have to be talking. And I also have to be listening. But I also have to be thinking about what's the next thing we're going to do or where we're going to move from this or how we're going to wrap it up. So I'm thinking about seven things at the same time. And that's just about the right number of things to keep me
interesting, David. Yeah, exactly. And the other thing that I that I did, I think I like about them, particularly again, about podcasts where you listen for a long period of time, or over a long period of time, or even the morning and circus funds is that. I feel like I'm getting to know the people. Right, like there's an intimacy to it. Because yes, it's it's still staged. Yes, they're only revealing parts of themselves, but they're revealing more of themselves than a very heavily scripted, you know, following the same format all the time podcast or NPR morning show. Right? Yeah, it's like, yeah, I know you through reading the news. And I know very little about you, outside of you reading the news. But, you know, I, you know, I know, like the guys on puck soup, what their favorite movies are, and like, what their pet peeves are and, you know, I can tell by the different tones in their voices, right, where, you know, how they're particularly feeling and like the sarcasm and so all of that, because
they're engaging in the moment, right? They're not reading, like I was on the current ones, which is like the flagship CBC current affairs program that runs in the morning for two and a half hours when it was being hosted by ANNAMARIA Tremonti, he was like this journalist with like, so much international reporting background and like very overwhelmingly competent figure in Canadian journalism and, and she sounded like a very warm and stuff on on the air and everything was like quite listenable. And I was very impressed when I went to the studio for that I was talking about like, back when we had BlackBerry's and blackberry, the whole servers went down that one time and people were like emotionally overwrought about it. So I had to go on national radio and talk about that in like five time zones and and I actually this is funny digression side quest. You go to the CBC building at like six in the morning for this because like, time zones, and it's empty, because it's six in the morning, and you go up to the studio, and it's like right next to the studio where they like record as it happens, which is another one of my favorite CBC shows. I was like, oh, it's all fangirling and then, like, I'm really nervous, like, go to the bathroom and I'm in the bathroom on like, the studio floor, CBC Radio, and like there's Annamaria Tremonti, so I met her while we were both washing our hands having listened to each other go pee. So that was like, right. Yeah. Okay, that's cool. All right, this is okay. But when we were recording, I will say she was reading from a script, there was a script heavily marked up as a script that probably she had a large hand in writing, but is reading from a script and everything is timed to the two minutes and it sounds very, like warm and listen to him. But it's so conversational, like, way, the way that this is and obviously requires a lot more preparation and a team of producers that we are able to manage. Yes.
Well, and also, I mean, it's for different purposes, right, like, reading the news in that tone is a skill, right? And still making it sound warm and all that like and, and it's necessary, right? Whereas, you know, we're not trying to do that. So, no, at all, obviously. But But again, it's this it's not to say that and this is the flip side of it is that, you know, for people who love this style, they love it a lot. They do. Yeah, but that's a again a very niche audience. Mm hmm. Right, were in subverting the kind of norms expected norms and We'll talk about that in a second. But in subverting the kind of expected norms for what a podcast, particularly perhaps podcast hosted by women are supposed to be you forsake, and I don't want to sound that as a negative thing, because really, I don't care. But you do kind of forsake yourself for being to being niche. Right, right. Now, I mean, I'm even thinking of the difference. So I don't know if you've watched the show. Only murders in the building. It's, oh, it's Steve Martin. Martin Short.
Oh, it's on my list.
Yeah. No, it's so good. But it's it's about three people who live in this building, who are obsessed with murder podcasts, right. But then there's a murder in the building. Ran, they decided to make their own podcast about that murder. And so we have a TV show about a podcast
about murderers. Yes. Sorry, on the money. Yes.
But but there's that and even just talking about this. Now, again, brain going on the side quest is, you know, the difference between the way they've scripted it, and are narrating it? Right. And so they have one of them. We're Martin Short is like the producer. And he's very much like, no, that doesn't sound like a podcast, and no, you have to say it in this tone. Right. You know, all of that. They've got it all mapped out and story mapped, and all of that. versus what's actually happening in the show, which is pure chaos. Right? Right. It's all like it's it's, it's chaos and farce. I mean, Nathan Lane is in it. That's cool. There's camp elements to it. There's, you know, who is it? So Steve Martin plays a former TV show, it could be played a detective on a TV show for a long time. And yeah, oh, yeah. It's totally meta. And oh, Jane Lynch. Oh, is plays his stunt double? Oh,
that's amazing. To watch it just for that. So
like, so there's all these little like winging things in it, but but again, and then they put them they show the like, how they record the podcast, it cuts all of that out, or shapes it in a way that is, you know, I mean, they've done a compelling narrative. They have audiences there, suspense and all of that, but it doesn't have that. It's all all of the chaos is trimmed away.
Right. And that's part of the dramatic tension, I imagine, right is how do you produce something that's that is produced right out of the raw materials of chaotic experience. And I think, maybe some of what is appealing to me about the format that we quote, unquote, produce, I mean, I say produce, but it's like, click Record, and then the Ides of intro is that I think what a lot of us with ADHD and other forms of neuro divergence have always struggled with is, is understanding that the surfaces that people present in public do not reflect right, the processes of how they got these things done. Right. And a lot of, we've talked about in many episodes about some of the things that are most difficult about this disability, this diagnosis that we have is that all we've learned all our lives is that the processes by which we do things are wrong, right. And so, you know, it doesn't matter if we get the final result that people always want the way that we do it is wrong. And and part of something that's always like really interested me in like, the research that I do. And the questions that I pursue, in my research is about is about precisely this about people's drive to show actually what happens with the backstage self, not the front stage self like in Irving Gordmans sort of characterization there, right, like our public facing selves versus who we are backstage before Q gets called. And we go on stage, right. And I think that's what a lot of neurodivergent people are really hungry for is this this content that shows actually, how are people live? Right? Yeah. How do you get up in the morning? And how do you get yourself like into the shower? And I think this podcast too, is like get you a whole day off, get a whole day off? And then you record with me when the day is more than half done. You're like, guess what? Didn't get the shower yet? Yeah, neither. But like to show how things are made. We're sort of like, okay, wait for another random reference, like it will go from Mali, Miley Cyrus to the Pompidou Center, this entourage, Pompidou in Paris, the modern to contemporary art museum has all the piping on the outside, right? Yes, the building is designed to show the inner workings of it right, don't hide the infrastructure systems that heat and cool the building that move the water around the supports that hold the floors up, like all of that is visible in the design of the building. And I think our podcast is a little bit like the Pompidou Center and that the things that are supposed to be hidden behind the walls we're more interested in in will also because this is probably I'm like a framing this like a choice but as if you and I could do this any differently like we could seriously right. So like pretending that it's a choice that what we're really showing is how we're building the bill. As we go, rather than presenting something final and in that we're sharing, I think our experiences and our struggles with the sort of day to day processes of going from chaotic experience to some minimal level of functioning and accomplishment because a lot of our audience like because we keep hearing from people, women who've been diagnosed well into adulthood, many of whom have secured PhDs before getting diagnoses like women who have been very good at looking at buildings and replicating buildings, right, but but on the inside of the walls, things are falling apart, right. And I think that's one of the things that resonates. For so many people who've been diagnosed later in life, is that they always thought they were the only one that lived in this chaotic way. Yeah, I didn't. And you can tell people that they're not the only one. But it's much more powerful when you say like, I did take a day off work today, because I was pretty sure that's the only way I was going to have a shower. Shower. It's important, right are like, this is a list of things I have failed a hand in or this is how I designed my classes because I can't answer emails or like, just to be on
my shoulder. These are all the bills. I have to pay. I'm not paid.
Well. Yes. My husband does not know for me. I just watched your mom put a load of laundry into the washing machine in your basement, too. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah. She's like an inner working dri. Yeah. The inner workings, the inner
workings outsourcing. Women I think particularly with women and we've talked about this before, to where so much is expected of the performance right? So much of our of our lives have to appear effortless, right? Even even if you're not neurodivergent right, so much has to appear effortless. In so far as you know, it's like I you know, here is the perfect meal. And here is my perfectly dressed children. And here is my perfectly curated lawn and here is my you know,
I read an article about that actual second Elle magazine or something is this woman saying like it was about the effort it takes to look effortless, right? And she like opens the essay. I mean, I wish I could remember it, but I can't. But she opens the essay with like a visit to like some like crazy body work place in New York, where she's like, essentially flayed alive and sprayed with hoses at high volume to like, exfoliate her skin so that her skin looks great without makeup. Right. So like having that like effortless look of like I didn't really dress up. I'm not wearing like Spanx, but that means you have to go through like all the work that goes into
looking after even putting the Spanx on his work. Like let's be honest here, right? Like, just the stress of trying to wedge those things up. Like this is too much.
Yeah, I'm not drinking any liquids today. Because I cannot pull these down to go pee and then pull it back up again. I just Yeah, no, I
just can't do it. Sorry. You have to cut me out of these later was one use only. But But again, and then if you're neurodivergent, you know, already you're under this pressure that no woman could, or very few women, let's just say it probably no women could live up to without a lot of wealth, and a lot of help. Often procured through wealth. But then, but then if you are also, you know, chaos because of ADHD. So now you've got that double pressure, where you've been told again, everything you are all the processes you do is wrong. And that it just always looks like we're trying so freakin hard. Right? Like, nothing looks effortless, nothing looks effortless, um, at all ever. And, and so, you know, when and and again, there are all of these gendered expectations in terms of how you're supposed to look and how you're supposed to behave.
I think the best thing you, you said is how, particularly when we will ADHD I think in a lot of cases like we've we've failed, we've tried repeatedly and fail fail the traditional femininity. Yeah, right. Like where, you know, you're just you're not, I was never graceful. I have a whole blog post about like not being graceful, right? Like, yeah, you have to be graceful. And you have to like cross your legs at the ankle, not the knee, right. And you have to like arrange yourself in the clothes that you wear means that you're like, if you're in normative femininity mode, the clothes that you wear, make it difficult to sit comfortably, or if you do sit comfortably, then you're flashing either your underwear or your boobs at people. So you need to like always be managing, like the way that you're sitting and managing the ways that you're holding your hands or being careful when you reach above your head so that your shirt doesn't come up too high. Like there's a lot of ways in which normative femininity is all about kind of control of the body's movement in space and in ways that men are just not subjected to right like oh, I can't wear these like my first week of teaching like way back in 2014. I started my job here. I was trying to look like a real professor because I was quite young and I looked quite young. I'm not I don't have that problem now. Now I wear sneakers because I'm obviously old as fuck and everyone can see that and but it's like wearing these like kitten heels. They're a low heel but it's a kidney a little spike kitten Hill and a skirt and I was trying to go make a turn on the polished granite floor and my feet went out from under me. Like I just fell right on my ass right in front of my classroom. Like where there was like, you know, in the break between classes when the students are milling around outside because they can't go in the room yet. So pretty much everybody saw me just go like, as my mom would say, as over teakettle. Down on my butt books everywhere, computers everywhere, right? But I was like, thinking, I didn't wear shoes that I could walk in like they're comfortable enough to wear, but I thought like, you should be able to make a 60 degree turn walking speed. Yeah, without like, having to read about tires, right? Oh, my feet. But that's like normative femininity is all about take smaller steps, right? Be mindful, like, you know, you walk this floor yesterday, but yesterday, you were wearing like dogs, and that was okay. But now you have to be attention to what the surface of your shoe is like. Like, there's just so many so many, so many, so many details to manage simultaneously. When you're moving through the world, in an assigned female body, that it's completely overwhelming, I think for many neurodivergent folks who like are just so busy trying to decipher other people's facial expressions and social cues to be like, I crossed my legs wrong, or this was the wrong shoe because now I fell down or like my skirt is, is okay when I'm standing. But when I sit down, it's really uncomfortable. It rides up too high. Like that would be a great way to guarantee that we never get anything done. So like there's those codes of dress and movement, but also codes of behavior about being quieter.
Yes, I was gonna say that because and here's the interesting thing. As I read more about ADH, I've always been loud, always been loud. But I guess that's an ADHD thing to where you can actually accurately gauge the volume of your pitch of your voice. Mm hmm. I don't like really. Like, that's also a processing that you're gonna get a problem with, like, God, but, but again, if you're a boy, and you're really loud and boisterous, that's okay. You know, whereas when you're a girl, I laugh, you know, they used to joke in university, they could hear my laugh from a mile away. Like, they're like, Oh, you're here, we heard you coming. We heard you laughing in the stairwell
like, How dare you? How dare you be spontaneously joyous in public? Right. There's also there's also
though, and I'll all say this, is that? It and there's a whole bunch of like, there's gender issues, but there's also class issues wrapped up in this too. And, and in Quebec, I think like language and culture, because I went to a francophone more working class university, where it was more the kind of of the, it was more boisterous, right. Like it was just more boisterous. And, you know, like we talked about the Christmas party is where, you know, I would get it, you know, our Christmas parties was like our little family of six sitting around the table, quiet writing, whereas I'd go there and it'd be church basement with 150 cousins, all like drunkenly singing and dancing. Yeah, it's so there's, so there was more of an acceptance of it. Because that, you know, everyone was loud. Right? Or, or rather, it was more culturally acceptable to be loud. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And ended and to take up a little bit more space. Yeah. in those in those sorts of way. It was also the 90s were like, the mid 90s, late 90s. Where, you know, you you the like, what femininity was, was a little bit like it was grunge. Right. So it was, it was crunch. So yeah, you know, there was there was a little bit more, it just timed itself perfectly. And I picked the perfect spot for myself in terms of Oh, it's so it's, it's, there are places where this could be acceptable. Yeah, there are places and spaces where this could be acceptable.
Yeah, it was, it was a great time for comfortable shoes. Genuine clothes. Yeah, flannel and backpacks. Right, that you could wear on both of your shoulders simultaneously. None of these like baguette purses and like, yeah, I don't know, high heels. I'm like, glad we're out of the loop Wu Tang era, right? The you know, Sex in the City version one kind of like, hyper feminized stuff. That was very, very difficult, right, but so like, you're talking about normative femininity, and also cultural normativity related to tone and volume. And like, there's also codes that are gendered highly about, yeah, how much space you can take up versation or in a room or with your voice or how you sit on a chair and that relates to what some thinking you and I've been doing about podcasts to write about, like maybe men feel more comfortable having these sort of off the cuff conversational podcasts because they're used to people moving out of their way, right, like maybe it's okay to just show up and be like, I'm pretty sure that whatever I say is worth recording. Right and publish. Yeah, Don't have to prepare, right? I'm eminently qualified. And I often get to shoot my mouth off in a variety of situations. And you know, people seem grateful for it. Whereas I'm sure you have received in your time as I have helpful advice from people about, maybe don't put your hand up so much, right. Yeah. Or like teachers that roll their eyes and say like, Yes, Amy. Like, I know that you know the answer. Yeah. Right. Yeah, let's let somebody else learn. Which like for autistic me, like, probably good for me to understand, like room dynamics, but also like the, the subtext there was like, you know, smart is good, but now you're too smart. It's annoying, right? Yeah. How curious you are, it's annoying to know how much you put up your hand, right? And people don't, in my experience, like I'm sure some of our male or male identifying, like listeners may. You may quibble on this, but I know that I've spent most of my life understanding that most people think that I'm too much. Like, I'm a very quiet person, like in terms of like, I'm not, I'm not a shouter. And I'm not clumsy. I don't break things that don't make a lot of noise. I'm often terrifying people by like, so called sneaking up behind them when I'm just walking, right? And I say hi. And they jump out of their skins. Like, that's how quietly I move through the world. But like, if I go to a meeting, and I have something to add, I add it. Yeah. Right. And, and the world is kind of not ready for that, in many ways from women. So I've spent my whole life like being told like, not just think before you speak as what you say, as thought was, but think before you speak, because people don't want to hear from you that much. Yeah, yep. Right.
Oh, and I am all of the things you just described though, as well as, as well as, as well as so like, I am reading. And I am loud, and I am borderline fat. And I have always been like I was a swimmer. And like and so swimmers take up a lot of space because we get big shoulders. And yeah, I can I can still remember. You know, all in when I was in elementary school. All the girls did ballet and figure skating. Right? Except me. Right, who swam and I can still clearly remember walking home from school one day with somebody in my grade, who's like, oh, you're a swimmer? Like, yeah, she's like, Oh, my cousin was a swimmer. She got really big shoulders really ugly.
I can give you one for my sister, my sister went to see like some kind of like RMT for an issue she was having. And RMT said to her like, do you play squash? And she was like, Yeah, I am. She said I could tell from your bulky size.
Oh, God.
So we've always been like for years now seeking to my sister, you can have your Tokita as ever, like, right? So people are policing your embodiment because you're too strong. Emotionally, right? Like, your, your shoulders are too big. Because you got too strong. Like it's not a thing that anybody's ever said to a man like I you know, I think Michael Phelps, right, your shoulders are too developed. It looks weird, right? You're a woman doing a Garni? Yeah, people don't want women to make a lot of noise. They want them to take up a lot of space, they don't want them to like fall down in public. So they have to take smaller steps. So they don't want them to be become physically larger, like, like, either through being fat or through like working out, and being visibly more muscular than other people. And they don't like them to talk too much. And that's why I love this podcast, because it's you and me. And we get to talk as much as we want. And no one's gonna interrupt us
know it until it gets to be two o'clock. And
that's right, or like your internet cuts out, or we're gonna start to be flowing. Yeah. Or the cleaning people come or cleaning people come. They came on time today. So they are good. Done. did a really great job, too. I'm so pleased. Yeah, yeah. So. So maybe one of the reasons like that our podcast is sort of more conversational and off the cuff is like has to do with our personalities and cool and our inability to like spend a lot of time preparing for this ahead of time. It's just much more fun for us both to come and do this on the fly the way that we do this and have interesting conversations. But also it's it's a space, which is as therapeutic for us as it is for others in the sense that we get to interact with one another in the ways that we are comfortable interacting, like I can use the big words and be silly, right? And you can be loud and go on side quests. And it's part of our value proposition, right? Like, and I think a lot of this podcast has been about like, how can we like learn not just to accept who we are, and have been the whole time instead of masking all the time and trying to become different people? And how can we celebrate that and I think one of the reasons like what we get from people about our podcast resonating with them is because we are being authentically the ways that we are which are ways that many women are not supposed to To be or allowed to be in public, particularly neurodivergent women who are always already thinking they're doing something
wrong, because that's what we've been told our entire lives, right? Like,
yeah. And we're using the backstage persona, right? Not the front stage, persona. And like, dudes do this all the time on their podcasts. And it's hard to find really, women who do let their hair down, right? Like, yeah, I'm interested in thinking about like that sort of gendered notion of who is allowed to be authentic in what ways like for women like being authentic would be like, you know, getting $600 worth of work done on like your skin so that you can do a hashtag no hashtag no makeup. No, I woke up like this. No Filter stuff, right? That's the kind of authentic women are allowed to be right is like, naturally beautiful and naturally perfect with no effort. But men will go like, and do comedy routines about like their butt hair. Yeah. And like, great. I should I deserve 10,000 listeners to this right now. And that probably hits harder for neurodivergent women who have such a hard time following those social rules anyways, even more so than men, but the rules are tighter on Yeah, much.
So much tighter.
Yeah,
I think having, you know, thinking about all of that, because I was I was reflecting on it too. And to get it exactly that like one of the joys of doing this podcast, as you just said, it's like, this is one of the few spaces where I can lean into my ADHD so to speak, right? Where it's like, I can be authentic, I don't have to worry about I don't have to apologize for it. Um, you know, we, we accept these things, and it sort of we make it work, obviously. But that it but that we make it work, right. And it's something that is keeps, you know, we keep going and it keeps happening, and we found a way to make it work. So it's like, yeah, we can be, you know, again, we can be successful, while being authentically ourselves, as opposed to being successful at masking. Masking. Yes, well, because we've been so successful at masking, you
can work and be successful with an out of label video on YouTube of us being our Jolene selves instead of our over produced major label Party in the USA. So it's like what happens when we sing in our natural ranges? Right? What happens when we show up in our natural ways of being and like, like, I will say that one of the reasons like that I'm always listening to our episodes, when they come out is a I forgot what we said. And B, I'm trying to make sure I don't talk too much. Right? I'm like, please notice, Amy, like, if you're cutting me off too much, or if you're taking up too much airtime, right, because I'm still like I do, I do not want to overwhelm people. But I do think like, the further I move through this ADHD journey is is that maybe all women are unfairly policed in terms of how they're allowed to be in public, how they're allowed to look, how they're allowed to sit, how they're allowed to move, how allowed they're allowed to be how much they're allowed to talk. And that that struggle is also maybe a little bit more intense for neurodivergent people. But you know, sometimes, like, as we've been discussing in many other podcasts, the things that other people find, maybe sometimes annoying, or non normative, about us are the sources of our strength, right? Or the places that we we can contribute, like, I don't know, a lot of people who have the stamina to do an off the cuff hour long podcast every week, right? And like, Oh, I've run out of things to say, and I'm like, I'm never run out again. So, like, so like, I'm an over talker, but over talker that we can actually, like build up an archive of of episodes that are coming out like fairly regularly, fairly on time fairly useful to people just by moving through our daily lives absorbing stuff, and then somehow managing to spit it out when the slot machine handle gets pulled. As soon as you hit the record button. Does that mean like maybe we have too many things to say too fast at meetings? Maybe. But I think it's part of the same thing. Right? And it's not that on the whole, it's terrible is that we've never been able really to lean into finding the benefits and the strengths of moving through the world and that we've always just tried to stop being too much.
Yeah, exactly. Or when we don't stop ourselves from being too much. severely punished for it. Mm hmm. Right. I mean, Sean's shamed you know, excluded, excluded, brought into the boss's office and given a stern talking to which that's always great because then the RSD kicks in and that's a fun one. Because that's always the other thing in the back your mind rage is sort of, well, if this doesn't go well, and then the rejection sensitivity kicks in and you're like, oh, now I'm in a shame spiral. Yeah, good time to be me. But There's nothing and and again, like it's this comes back also to that conversation we had for this week's podcast was the one that posted today that reported on Tuesday. But anyways, around not finishing things. Yeah, where you know that this podcast is again, both always finished and unfinished. Right, right. Like we have a finite time where I'm looking at the clock, and I'm like, we better wrap this up soon. But at the same time, it's like, well, we have more to say, but there'll be another episode next week for, you know, whenever whenever we make it work for the recording. And, and there's something about, again, because we're not doing we're not doing this for tenure, we're not doing this for promotion, we're not doing this. And again, we're in a fairly privileged position where, you know, you don't have to worry about tenure promotion, I don't have to worry about this for like, trying to find a job or anything like that. We don't have to worry about this becoming popular so we can sustain our livelihoods. Right. This is this is a hobby, right? We're doing this, like, for fun, right? Like, like the piatto you know, like, love you saying just before we got on, um, Amy played me on her piano. The that piece of piano music from a Charlie Brown Christmas, Christmas time is here. Christmas time is here. And now he's saying, Are you going to do that? Duh. She said, No, my sister is doing it. But then what? What is your what was your sister's comment about?
Yeah, my sister is playing the Linus and Lucy theme, which is the one you mentioned. And she's like, oh, like, I'm having trouble with it. I was like, why? And she's like, because I keep laughing. I can't play it without laughing and I was like, well, there goes your concert career. Right? Which she was not aiming for it. I was like, Aren't you lucky that you have a hobby? That reliably? You laugh too hard? And you have to stop? Like, I would love more things in my life. That make me feel good. Like, yeah, right. And
that's what this podcast is one of them. It's like, that's the it's the hobby that we keep coming back to because it makes us feel good. Right? Yeah. laughing uncontrollably, but I always like, I really look forward to the conversations. And I always feel better. Like my Friday afternoons are like so much better after these conversations like yay. And that motivates me to kind of get it, put it in GarageBand put her down to go through those things that I might not like to do as much. Yeah, right. Um, but even even like that funny, so I had to, I had to edit out right. I actually had to work for this last episode. That was just your internet, right? Yeah. Where were my internet died, my screen died and everything died. So I had to sort of figure out where it was. And I found it right away. And then where I wanted to make the cut and how I wanted to make the cut. And even that became fun, because I'm like, How can I kind of do this in an ADHD kind of way? Yeah. And so I got myself off.
I know, we're both students. And then we're talking about, yeah.
We're both big fans of Hannah, Gatsby's comedy, right. And yes, and one of the things like she's like, I never met a joke. I didn't like get a meta joke. Right. So she's always joking about the joking and, and I love the way like, at the outset of, of being, like, say, Douglas, she's like, this is what's gonna happen in the show. Yeah, and, and then you're gonna laugh, because it's a funny joke, right? It's like, it's like a put down your pen, Have a biscuit today's done, kind of joke. And she's like, but now you think you're not gonna laugh because I told you, it's coming you like, it can't be that good. But it is right, and you're gonna laugh. And then you're gonna have a second laugh. Because you're going to remember that I told you that you're going to think you're not going to laugh, but then you are going to laugh, and then you're going to laugh a third time, as it all comes together for you. Right. And, and so like, for me, that's a very sort of ADHD and artistic way of making comedies, again, attention to the structures, right, where the structure is aiming to match the the content of the thing. And so like, I think, in some ways, what we've been inadvertently doing because we didn't know how not to do this is being very ADHD and our embodiments in the making of this podcast, which is chaotic, right, and prolix and verbose, and too much and hold it
loud. But thankfully, you can adjust the volume Yeah, and loud
as you know, record it in one year, release it in the next year, or like accidentally record for three hours and have to have three episodes and but I think like that, that's a that's a strength and and I want our listeners to know that they can create opportunities for themselves to lean in to the ways that feel natural for them to be in the world. And they can find a spot like my sister enjoys playing the Linus and Lucy theme and laughing You know, I like playing the piano because it's a controllable thing and I do it for myself and I get to obsess about I don't require anybody else.
I like doing this podcast because I get to talk a lot. Right? People will listen or not but I don't feel like I'm impinging on anybody's job because they can exactly right like it's your job like did I put my hand up to Much like No, yeah, that was why I always like Twitter a lot too, because I could have be too much on Twitter. But like, it didn't matter. People were like, read me, don't call me don't see us scroll on by, like, you don't want this whole thread. You don't want to hear me live tweeting every aspect of my life, then, you know, that's fine. That's yeah.
Yeah, I kind of don't want to feel like a failure when I'm listening to an ADHD podcast because I can't maintain my focus because I think it's moving too slow. Right? Like, that kind of makes me feel bad about myself. Like, oh, my god, like, maybe you're trying to, you know, be in solidarity with these other podcasts that like, you keep drifting, you fell asleep listening to that one. Like, you don't even know what happened. You're like, Can I play this double speed?
We'll use those instant asleep stories. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You know, but like, your mileage may vary, like, you know, like different things. Like I love listening to just CBC radio voice people because at least like I find the the talk radio stuff is often like hopelessly stupid. And in a poor dynamic range, it gives me a headache. And I like this. I like to listen to ideas on CBC long format documentaries about you know, Louise lebay, the controversies around the authorship of the 16th century French love poems. Right? Okay. Bring it. Right. Yeah. Yes, everybody's mileage may vary. And, yeah, like the thing that had prompted us today was like, just sort of thinking through. Why does our podcast on different from other people's podcasts? Why do we sound more like dudes for like, like, triple job, both trap house, right up, like just shooting off our mouths about whatever and assuming we're probably correct about it. And because we like to do that, and the world is not afforded us a lot of opportunities to engage it in those ways. And we created our opportunity. And I'm like, sitting at my desk. manspreading right now, me doing,
like, I'm in a dress, and I My feet are shoulder width apart.
I have one foot up on my desk right now. Because it feels good on my hips to sit like that. And why not? It's not harming anybody. It's nice to have a space where you can be yourself.
Yeah, that's exactly it. Well, I think that's a good place to end it as on top of it. We're just running out of time. But it is really nice. And I know, right? So as always, please reach out. I'm ready writing on Twitter.
I am Did you walk on Twitter.
And you can also email us at all the things adhd@gmail.com Or leave a comment on our website. All the things adhd.com. And again, we love hearing from you and you can inspire total, you know, you can inspire an entire episode.
People. Oh, one more last decidely I have to throw okay. Yeah. I don't know why I was over sharing one of our episodes with somebody on my Facebook who like clearly needed the episode about how to pack a lunch to go back to work work in the after times. And I happened upon the transcript for one of our episodes and did you know that did you want my Twitter handle comes out as did you work? Like, I did it. So even the transcript services shaving me about how much work I am or I'm not getting done. Hey, you. Can you work? I did not. I was just like, Don't shame me. The transcripts? Yeah, I thought you'd like that.
I think I think I finally got her to call you Amy like image instead of Amy. I think I finally trained it for that. But did you want one? I haven't.
Yeah. Did you worry just I mean, it's great. I love it. Or it just was like thanks, world.
Yeah, so take up space. And we'll talk to you next week. We sure will.
