Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact Uprising.
So welcome to the good community, where Nonprofit Professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Hey, Becky, how are you?
I got to share a little story about how we met our guests before we dive in. Because if you're not aware, we host a community and coffee at the end of every month. It's the last Friday of the month. It is an open invitation to the world to the globe. Come on in, we're just going to talk, you know about things that are affecting us in the sector. We're gonna give you updates. One of these days, the incredible Karen Cochran just like enters the zoom. And I remember watching her for a couple of months, and she just started dropping wisdom bombs within the community and coffee we met later. In y'all. You have got a growth mindset veteran, brilliant fundraising strategist on the podcast today. And I am so glad, Karen that you came in organically through the community. So we're going to be talking today about building organizational capacity about how do we think differently about our work in pls? How do we take care of the humans that are on the staff, and we're doing it with one of the great Oracle's of our sector. So let me give you a little bit of background about Karen. She is the founder and chief philanthropic innovator at philanthropy innovators. And that's that's a really bougie title. But let me just tell you, her pedigree is incredible. She's been at the Duke Cancer Institute, she was the interim VP for advancement and CEO at the University of Central Florida's Foundation. And so there was a time where she looked at me and said, You know what, I just wanted to evolve bigger. And I believe that we can do good work, and we don't have to do it the old way. So can I get some finger snaps on that. And we just love her so much. Because when she says that fundraising isn't about the dollars, it's rather about what the dollars can do. And so her entire consultancy is built around that she has led and mentored teams that have raised more than a billion dollars during her three decade year career. And now she's just helping organizations missions, reimagine what's possible. So today, we're going to be diving into all of the goodness she has learned and how she has figured out how to make things more simple, easy to understand, but massively effective, because she is specializing in that assessment, and program development to increase all that effectiveness and efficiency. She's doing it through training and mentoring and leadership development. And we're gonna go on an amazing ride. Today, you have asked us for capacity building, we are diving in with our own. So meet an incredibly good human. And Gabrielle is mom Karen, welcome to the podcast. We're glad you're here.
Oh, thank you so much, Becky, for that wonderful introduction. And it's great to be with you and John. And before we do dive in, I just want to give you all some props for creating this wonderful community where everybody matters, and where community is everything. Whoa,
thank you, my friend.
Thank you. Well, I just want to recognize your recent milestone of 400,000 downloads. Wow,
we we don't understand it. We are gobsmacked by it. if I'm completely honest. And it's just a humbling journey. But I think you know, people like you are a part of this Impact Uprising this. And I think that I thank you for saying that. Because your evolution is such a part of that our evolution is fueling that. And I want people to get to know you because I think you have such a fascinating backstory. So take us back and let us know about Karen and how you fell into this work because I know you are not intent on being a fundraiser. That was not your first goal.
That was not my first goal. Actually, you know, I was born and raised in Charleston, West Virginia. And I spent a lot of time in the swimming pool. early on. I was a nationally ranked swimmer. And I often joke that swimming actually really prepared me well for fundraising. Because in swimming, what you learn is you're only as good as your last time. And in fundraising. What we know is we're only as good as our last year our last gift our last campaign right? But really, I think the message to the nonprofit world is that it's really about more than just that last gift during that last campaign, it's about how you show up for your institution. And, you know, I had the benefit of being raised in a household where leadership was taught around the dinner table. And my dad had regular, we call them Smith isms that he would share with us. And one of my favorite ones was with exposure combs, composure. And so early on, he would look for ways to put my sister and myself in situations that weren't quite comfortable, where there were growth opportunities. But most importantly, really, in terms of, how did I get here, from there, it's probably due to my parents, and both of them realizing and both of them embracing early on that gender did not define who you could become as a professional. And by giving me the freedom to really play to my strengths, to figure out what my strengths were, and to really pursue those passions. That's what led me to fundraising, because it's about the relationships, it's not just about the money. It's about what those dollars can do. Yeah.
I mean, I love all this, I love the dinner table conversations, I feel that as a dad now, you know, trying to impart the right things on our kids and just show up and model the values that we hope that they kind of capture along the way. So I love that you're living that out now. But you've been in the sector. I mean, Becky said this in the intro through some huge transition. I mean, you got to be part of a really incredible career in higher ed and health care. But along the way, I just feel like you also are at this point where traditional strategies that maybe we learned in the beginning aren't those that are working now that there's some obvious gaps. And so I wanted to give you space to talk about what are some of the hallmarks? What are some of those ways that people can find success today, for the fundraiser, that doesn't also take such a toll on our mental health? You know, maybe some of the things that maybe we were taught, that aren't serving us well, anymore, kind of talk us through some of those things?
Sure, absolutely. So, you know, I'm a big proponent of balance. But I want to be crystal clear here, that doesn't mean that I have found balance, it means that I strive for balance, and that I make decisions every day that enable me to bring my best self to this discipline, right. And I think that really John is the essence of what we want to share as a community is this work is a calling. And it really requires you to show up as your best self every day. And early on. For whatever reason, I didn't get the fact that I needed to take care of myself in order to be my best self. Yep. And so I found myself, this is not an uncommon scenario in a health care crisis. The irony of it is that it was December 31. And I had gone into the office to make sure that donor checks got deposited. And I was driving between my office and the Central University gift processing. And I was at a stoplight. And I felt this unbelievable pain on my face. Right between my eyebrows, dead center. And I was like, Oh my gosh, what is that, and less than 30 seconds later, it shot over to the right eye. And I had to pull over to the side of the road. And I made a call it was it was still before noon, because gift records, shut their doors at noon, I was determined to make it. And I called my primary care physician and I said Will somebody be there? I need to be seen today. And I don't want to go to the emergency room because I honestly believe I have shingles on my face. And the only way I knew that was that we had a family history of it. And I had seen it on my great aunt. And I couldn't imagine anything else that it could be at that point. And so I drove the checks, got them processed and then drove myself to the doctor's office. And you know, they were kind enough to stay open to make sure I got medication. But he looked me in the eye and he said you realize that this, it's not about the medication. It's about the way you're living. And I was like, Well, you know, I'm just going to take this and I'm going to be better. And that Scituate situation and the shingles took me a full six weeks to even get back in the office. Wow. And it was just such a poignant moment for me that I realized that one of two things was going to happen. Either I was going to leave the profession, which I loved. Or I was going to figure out how to manage my stress and how to take care of myself better. And so, because of that, right, the silver lining of all this is that I learned meditation. I use acupuncture to control my stress, I draw boundaries differently, although I'm still learning than I did back then. And I think one of the things we tend to do to ourselves in this nonprofit community is, we think that we're all alone. Yeah, we are the ones who put the extra heaping of stress, because we've taken on so much. And we're afraid to throw up our hand and say, Hey, I need help prioritizing, or teammate, you know, I realize you have other things to do. But I'm really on deadline today. Could could you jump in and help me out on this. And, you know, part of the reason that I founded philanthropy innovators, is to share my knowledge. And when I talk about sharing my knowledge, it's about not just the achievements, actually, the achievements aren't really where I focus. It's about getting the word out about the mistakes I made, and how we can do things differently.
Wow. I mean, I can't imagine a better tone set for talking about capacity building, then you sharing that story. And I want to, I want to thank you for being so vulnerable to share it. And I have to tell you, it's really eerily similar to my break down story. And, and I have to tell you, my therapist, and I have gone over this several times of when I had that moment of breakdown, and I'm studying for the CFRE. I mean, we this is a trend, we should probably talk about this at some point like that we are pushing through these moments. And I remember having that panic attack and going straight back to the couch and studying through it. And it's like, why are we not listening to our bodies. And I think this concept of normalizing rest, which is one of our trends for this year, has got to be put into practice, because rest and success are not interdependent, they are absolutely linked. And so I want to thank you for drawing a line from your own experience to the fact that we cannot be successful as humans, as organizations, as people chasing impact, if we're not really creating that balance, and as an Enneagram. Two, I am here to say, I'm the worst at asking for help. But we got to flex that muscle, because it's going to be the thing that helps us and saves us. So love that tone setting. And I want to move into how you taken that lessons and how you've worked that into your strategy and your leadership and your innovation and talk to us about the power of building organizational capacity as the great multiplier effect. I know you have deep experience and thoughts around this. I do.
And I think it's one of the things that differentiates philanthropy innovators, because when I made the decision to launch my own firm, I was clear about two things. One was that I wanted to share my knowledge. And I had a dear friend who said to me, you know, it would be a real shame, if the last team you coached was the only one who learned from you. And I will not repeat what I said back to her. But it made me stop and think. And it made me start thinking about how do you pass on information? And how do we support the young individuals who are pursuing this career. So I did a couple of things. One, I started to try to really categorize my experience. And to simplify it. The other thing I did was I had another great friend and mentor who told me just because you've been doing this for 30 years doesn't make you a coach. And I knew that coaching was a piece of what I wanted to offer in terms of service delivery. And she and I talked through it and I landed on the Marshall Goldsmith stakeholder centered coaching method, which I've now been certified in. And it's a wonderful method and it just speaks so much to my values because, you know, when I think back about where we were in In the conversation earlier, and talking about how we tend to think that it's all on us to deliver, to get that goal to get that gift, whatever. If I'm really, really honest with myself, my best performance was never about me. It was about a really, really high performing team that believed in giving each other feedback that believed and pushing each other beyond belief, to build their own capacities, and who were so invested in each other's success and the mission, that they went above and beyond anything they thought they could ever accomplish. Well, I
love that you're channeling that into the way that you show up because I'll say, as a young person fighting imposter syndrome, going from a graphic designer to a director of annual giving along the journey, you need people that are several steps ahead of you to show up transparently and tell you that you don't have every piece of it figured out and that you need to channel balance along the journey. So I appreciate the way your vulnerability here and in the people you coach and mentor in your life. Like that's such a gift. So just thank you for that. I want to transition and talk about this innovation piece, you know, how have you seen a focus on innovation play out with your clients, and what are some tips from other nonprofits can glean from really integrating these into culture and practice.
So one of my favorite innovative tips actually comes from about a decade ago when I was part of the leadership and action cohort for Duke. And that cohort is actually made up at the time was made up of four of us from Duke four from Johns Hopkins, four from Stanford and four from Cornell. And there was an individual from each institution on the team. And we had a final assignment. And our final assignment was to develop an innovative way to think through problem solving for advancement teams. And we came up, actually, we, you know, borrowed a concept from the Googles of the world and for you. And we decided that we would put forward this idea of a hackathon. I'm a firm believer that problems, find their best solutions from the people who actually encountered them every day. In other words, I really believe you lead from every seat in the organization, and that the best leaders channel that and martial that energy around solutions. And so the idea behind the hackathons, which I've then used with clients and in other settings,
is define them for people if this is your first time hearing what a hackathon is.
Sure. So I'm using it in the sense that you bring a collective of people together, and you give them a big problem. And you provide them lots of food and lots of energy, and lots of time to think and lots of caffeine. And you give them a certain amount of time to solve the problem and then present on it. So where I've seen it work particularly well is with maybe five big issues that an organization is struggling with, and they can be everything from, we're not getting our stewardship letters out the door to, we have to build a sustainable model, or we're going out of business. And the teams that you pull together need to be representative of every part of the organization. So usually, unless it's a really tiny organization. I am a proponent of not having top leadership, participate in the solution finding and putting the team together across an up and down the organization with a lot of people who think differently about the problem. Yes. And then challenging them, usually three hour setting lunch on the back end, here's your problem. Here's what we need you to do. Here's the PowerPoint Template, you're gonna get up and present to a panel of experts at the end. And usually what we do is make sure that there's an incentive for those who come up with the best solutions. So there's prize money, but it doesn't go to the individual it goes to implementation of their idea.
Yeah, I think that there's something very powerful in what you just said. And it's something that John talks about a lot and he's been talking about it for probably 10 years to me, which is we tend to have echo chamber chambers so often in our work, and you know, healthcare is only talking to healthcare, philanthropy and maybe higher, Ed's only talking to higher ed. And there's so much to be gleaned to having different perspectives. And I think, having something like a hackathon, I would think the diversity of thought experience, all of that would enrich that ability to really drive innovation forward. So I commend you for that. And I, you know, we'd love a good framework over here, you know, and something with with really understandable terms, for those that are really wanting to go deeper in this, you've got this awesome framework, Karen, I mean, you got 30 years in the industry. And you are talking to me about this. And you said, you started noticing these patterns that kept coming up, and they better centered you on your targets, but they also helped you balance your well being in this concept of, it seems simple, but it's not easy was kind of threaded in this kind of insight that you had. So talk a little bit about this framework for taking knowledge and just take it into streamline terms.
So I have come up with what I refer to as the most philanthropy model, most m o s
t acronyms.
Always easier and in helpful to remember Yes, keep going
absolutely. So m, Money Follows mission. If you're not clear about your mission, that's where you need to start. Because you can't inspire others to give if you can't articulate that mission. And I think all too often, messaging is a little bit scattered. And not focused on the mission. When you focus on the mission, the money will follow you, The O stands for organizational alignment. And this is an area after serving in the nonprofit field for more than three decades, I can say we don't do it well, no. And it, it feeds the cycle in some ways of, you know, the churn we see in terms of frontline fundraisers in terms of staff, it really organizational alignment, to me, means that you're crystal clear about your goals. And when I talk about goals, I'm not talking about 25 of them, you can really only manage three to five per year. And you need to be crystal clear on the objectives that support those goals, and how they feed the rest of the organization. The S is share stories and statistics. Because you need to be able to reach your donors in an emotional way to make sure they understand what their dollars are doing. And the T which is probably my my favorite one is take care of the talent. Because if you, you can have all the budget in the world. And if you have too many vacancies, it really hampers your ability to deliver against the mission. So you know, we're in a situation right now, and it tends to be cyclical. But this one is, as you all well know, and this community walls well knows. It is. You know, it's really, really frightening. We're in a situation where there are five vacancies for every one qualified fundraiser. Yeah, it takes you that's a huge, shocking stat 200% of that salary line to replace that person. And seven out of 10 of your best staff members are not only getting calls, they're actively looking for jobs.
Yeah, it may be they're taking on multiple jobs because of that opening and the burnout. I mean, there's so many cyclical effects to this work.
I love those stats, and I love kind of how you painted this picture. Because I got asked a few weeks ago, like, Hey, I thought you were a fundraising podcast. But y'all talk about such a wide variety of issues. And I'm like, You bet we do. Probably because I think we grew up in the in the headspace that it is money that matters. And we're chasing the dollar, and we're chasing all these goals. And we didn't talk about some of this other stuff that is sustaining and the culture that drives this sustainability of our missions and our our fulfillment as people too. And so thank you for lifting that and just kind of put a plug out there for our good jobs board because we wanted to create a place where you could go find alignment. If you're looking for a job that would would light you up in that way. I want to be part of that space and your journey. But I want to talk about sustainability. Because you're, you know, your tea takes us there with taking care of your talent. But I know you're a big proponent of growing your internal talent, particularly with young professionals, which we love. You know, we see this burgeoning talent that's, you know, kind of all around us talk about, have you seen the power of homegrown talent being mutually beneficial for both organizations and the people powering them?
Yeah, that's great. Thank you. It is a passion of mine. And likely, because even though there wasn't a formal structure, it was as a student that I found my calling. So I really had the benefit early on, of mentors in the business, because I didn't, you know, we talked about this in the very beginning of the podcast, I didn't start out thinking I wanted to be a fundraiser. Heavens, I didn't, I don't even know that I saw that it was a job. You know, I bet it was something you did as a volunteer. I didn't see it as a profession. Right? Yeah.
Not your typical Halloween costume growing up, you know.
Picture what that you wouldn't even know. Like, I don't know, bringing chivari chairs on your back and like, holding pledge forms.
But I really think that this is a wonderful field for people who, to your point, want to align their values with what they do every single day. And one of the ideas I've talked openly about I just presented a case just a few months ago on is this idea of advancement fellows. And I developed a program while I was at UCF for advancement fellows. But the idea was to introduce students. And it doesn't mean that you have to be on a university campus to implement this. But to utilize student talent of all levels, to really get them engaged in what you're doing. And to get them the opportunity to learn about the field. And I believe that if we can begin to do that consistently, that we will have a better pipeline. And that longer term, we'll be able to sustain our organizations.
I mean, it just makes sense. Why would you not continue to develop internally, the people who are on the frontlines of one, undoing your understanding your mission, it's such a close and proximity that way, they understand they're seeing the impact in real time, they're understanding the culture, and we all know that it's incredibly expensive to lose someone. I mean, it's over $150,000. When you lose someone, you work to replace them and the knowledge that's left, that's, that's left behind, and, and you know, that creates just this fracture. And these relationships that we know are so incredibly Pivotal, to being able to reach our goals and have these long term successes and PS, y'all Gen Z is creative. They do not operate the way that everybody else does. I mean, I even think are millennials friends, we have a lot to learn from them. So I think there's value in this conversation, I thank you for putting a stake in the ground, and saying, We got to take care of our people. And hey, some of your best talent may be left uncultivated right there in front of you. And having a plan of intention to do that could truly make so much difference saving the bottom line and impacting, you know, a greater, not only fundraising goal, but also an impact number of people feeling seen and cared for. And gosh, doesn't that just feel better? And that's the world we want to live and work in. So okay, Carrie, you and I have gotten together. And you have shared an incredible story with me about a McKinsey Scott donation that we love to hear these stories. And we know the community loves to hear these stories. And there's always something really interesting to be learned from them. So you UCF was just the lucky enough to be the beneficiary of the really transformational gift by MacKenzie Scott. And I want you to talk about this very creative way that you took this unrestricted gift and you flexed it, like for the super big community impact, because I just think people are gonna be fascinated by it.
Well, you know, to your point, Becky, we were lucky enough to be chosen. And I honestly believe even though you don't know exactly what led to the choice, I think it was her embracing the access mission of UCF. And that's certainly what drew me to the institution originally. We were in a we were at a special point in time, where we had been through a number of leadership transitions. We'd been through four presidents in five years. And after having a president who had been there for 20 Plus, we also were out of campaign cycle. So this came as a wonderful bonus gift. But we knew that given where we were, we needed to make the most of it and make sure that people didn't begin to think that because we had been the recipient of this wonderful large s, that we were then not also needing their support. Exactly. So we sat down with the President and with other leaders, and we designed a matching program for donors, who would provide endowed gifts. Because UCF is only a little more than 50 years old. endowment is one of the areas of growth opportunity for them. We have more than 343,000 alumni, so strong alumni base, and we tiered the match so that we had opportunities to use it for a day of giving to incentivize multiple alumni who hadn't given before to step up. But we also had the endowment component that allowed people to establish million dollar plus Endowments for the first time. Awesome. And we were extremely successful, and in keeping people focused on how they could continue to lift the organization, and how we could get them to stretch in many ways beyond where their thinking might have been at the time. Yeah,
I think it's like an interesting message to even have to approach because what a uniquely generous gift to get someone like MacKenzie Scott, but really love your perspective on that, and I think it's inspiring and, you know, we gather on this table, you're not new to our community, you know how we love to just bask in the goodness of philanthropy around here. And so I wonder if you'd take us back to a moment in your journey that philanthropy just stopped you in your tracks and you still remember it to this day,
I had the genuine privilege of being at the table when the Tisch family, Tisch family as in New York, Loews hotels, New York Giants, decided to make an impact that would change people's lives forever. They do that regularly. But they were doing it outside of New York in this case, and it was for the Duke Brain Tumor Center. At the time, Mr. Tisch was suffering from a glioblastoma multiforme A, which is a deadly form of brain cancer. But he was very committed to making sure that the research continued. And that people who might have brain tumors in the future wouldn't have to suffer as he did. And I was actually the development officer who was at the very small table with the family when he declared, I am doing this because no one should ever have to suffer from this terrible disease again. Wow. And I can still envision Bob tissue in my mind. And it was such a watershed moment for the Duke Cancer Institute, but also the Brain Tumor Center, which then became the Preston Robert Tisch Brain Tumor Center at Duke. And to be able to be a part of that, and to witness even after he was gone, the discoveries that led to life saving therapies, is something I carry with me every day.
As someone who's lost two people in our life to glioblastoma. I, this story really touches me and I, there's just something magical. And I want to create, like just space for the gift that we get to sit at the table and watch these absolutely transformational life moments happen. And as you say that I get goosebumps because I can just feel the conviction that he must have felt in such a defining moment for his life. And what a gift to be able to facilitate these legacies and I and I have to tell you, anecdotally, as well, we also have a family friend who had a child who had one of the worst cases of hydrocephalus ever when this child was born. And they knew it before she was born. And they banked her cord blood at Duke sprain Institute. And I will tell you, she went and got two treatments, she is in public schools, she is shining, she is living this vibrant life, I just want to give that story full circle, because philanthropy matters. Having these big visions matters and paying these gifts forward and the way you can, whether you're the tissues, and you can give multimillion dollars. Or if you can just show up and make a gift or share the story. I think that matters. And just because we're fundraisers doesn't mean that we don't have a story to share, you know about how these issues intersect in our lives. And I actually think we have the great duty and privilege to say, here's the story, and here's how I've learned how I can impact it. Join me. So thank you for that story and allowing me to share that as well. Karen, you know, we end all of our podcasts with a one good thing, how would you like to wrap this all up in a beautiful bow and impart some wisdom to our community.
So I would like to pass on what I tell to each of my teams, and that is if you only learn one thing from me, it is the only thing you control is how you react to the situation.
Such good wisdom, oh, my goodness, Karen, this conversation has taken us like to the big to the small to just like how you can show up every day. Thank you. And I know people are gonna want to connect with you and hear more of your frameworks and hear more of how to work with you directly. So point is all the ways you show up online.
Absolutely. You can find me at www dot philanthropy innovators.com. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. At Karen dash Cochran
and Jorge come to the community and coffee, you can hang out with Karen, that drop in a little plug to come to our community, We Are For Good community.com. And that is how these conversations start. This is how we get to meet each other and share this advice. And I want to say Karen, as we're closing out, I think you've done the thing you wanted to do, which is share your knowledge by just showing up asking questions, sitting in community, giving what you can and I just really hope this is helpful for everyone out there. And I know we've learned so much. So rooting you on in all things. Keep going with your incredible company and appreciate what you're doing for our community and in this world. Well, thank
you both grateful through make all of this possible. And of course, I will be available to the community. I am in the community. I am one of the community and if I can help anyone define or build organizational capacity, I'm all in.
Choose your girl. Check it out. Thank you my friend. Thanks, my friend.
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