Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership: Embracing Self Reflection - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE, Becky Endicott, CFRE and Kishshana Palmer

11:40PM Dec 16, 2021

Speakers:

Julie Confer

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Kishshana Palmer

Keywords:

folks

leadership

people

podcast

leader

understand

self reflection

talk

friends

grew

care

create

giving

life

conversation

world

organization

pretzel

feel

power

Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky.

And this is the we are for good podcast.

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We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.

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So let's get started. Hey, Becky. Hi,

John. Happy Friday, everybody. This is the first I know, this is our first guest we've ever had on a Friday episode and in like, 200 episodes, right? We always

have these Friday combos where we have these talks. And I think it's been a dream that we just like, bring in friends just to like pull a seat up to the table, so we can just talk about something. And today that's happening, we brought the queen of leadership, the person who, honestly everything that we need to know in the last 18 months since I think we first met. But today you guys we are gathered to hang with

Kishshana Palmer, CEO of Kishshana & CO the founder of the Rooted collaborative, and I am just here to say that I believe kiss, Shauna is the globally the foremost disruptive leadership coach in our industry. And so we had to bring somebody on to talk about this next generation of leadership of mindsets of how we're going to pivot in this new world. Sorry, John, that I just said, pivot your most hated word. But when you get when you're talking about how to level up an entire industry, how do we shift mindsets, we've talked about risk, embracing risk, we've talked about embracing empathy, and today, we're talking about why it is important for you to have self reflection. This is about correctness and going inside and doing some self work and who else to bring on but the expert herself

to Shana Palmer, welcome back.

If that's you grew up, own it, own it, you are on this platform, we are passing you our microphone, and we are about to get educated by you. And so as everyone else, and we're just gonna bring your energy in, it's gonna be fun. It's like hanging out with friends.

Let's just speak some truth. You know, we get some meat Kish we were looking at her she was on our dream list to get on the podcast, she came on the podcast, we were like, blown away by her. And then we got to meet you in person. And we're like, oh, wait, she's this amazing in real life in really deep people surrounds people actually lives out the stuff she talks about. And so that's why we wanted to tap into your brain. Like we can't think about talking about leadership without, you know, having you speak into this conversation. So today, that's what you want it to be. And we're not a next gen series of leadership.

So good. Oh, my gosh, people are craving not necessarily like new per se, because you chase new and newest fleeting, but they're craving fresh, you know, like I think about my mom, who when I learned to cook, never cooked from a recipe. And I didn't know for a really long time probably sounds like a teenager that she was taking our leftovers. And she was just like, fan dangling them. And then they would like magically be new dishes, you know. So it doesn't always have to be like the new new, but y'all have managed to really invite people into the conversation of what's fresh. And I think that there's a difference in that because I think particularly as we think about next gen, there might be this desire, particularly for like emerging professionals or folks who are like more seasoned than just tired to just put everything down and like, I don't want you to throw everything away. I want you to be able to take what's happening now in our world, and apply those particular situations with those principles, some of which will not meet muster anymore, and others will get new life. And I think that that's really, really important. And so to me, that's what the series has done. Because it allows folks to just breathe new air into what was frankly kind of stale and

such. I mean, I love that you're saying that because I feel like we're a little obsessed. Becky's really obsessed with a great resignation. Oh, obsessed,

obsessed, I think ridiculous amounts of articles that I read about and now everything just okay, go ahead.

I mean, I realized in in some contexts, like it's a position of privilege to talk about, like people can just move throughout whatever jobs they want, when they don't, you know, align with something. But I do feel like there's an overall reckoning, right that's happening in just the old school way of showing up of a leadership that's out of touch, or that's not really valuing the people at the center are going to have a really hard time existing in this new reality, or at least it feels like that. You see that and what You're in who you're talking to? And then the work that you're absolutely.

I mean, I think there are a couple of things that are happening in this, sort of, in this rate resignation for me, folks are delusional. Okay. So you just wake up in the morning and like, I quit. And yeah, I hear. That's not real life, like I need people to be realistic about where they are in what season of their life. And to your point on that there is a privilege and being able to say, I'm out of here. And then what happens then. And so I think what I want people to really to think about is, it's easy to jump out of the frying pan into the fire if you're not careful. And so, one, what skills are you really bringing to the table, and I think of our work in terms of at its lowest level, which were, which is where I see most of us live, and our skills, things. I think I've mentioned this before, things that you learn to do overtime, and you get paid to do. But what happens if you start thinking about your talents, and those are things that come easy to you, you may pick them up, you may put them down, you may use them, you look at them look sideways. And if you want, if you work on those things, you can monetize them. And the thing that many of us hold out as sort of like aspirational one day, are our gifts. And those are the things that we are born with. And if we're darn lucky, we get to monetize them. And so when I think about leadership, and I think about what's next, I think that it really requires us to understand, where have we been vibrating? Are you in your skills level? Are you in your talent level? Are you even touching your gifts? Do you even know what they are? Have you slowed down enough to know? Are you just angry at work? Alone and resenting the job and resented having to be on Zoom, and all of us want an app.

It's so good, because it's getting to the core of it. Because we don't want to miss this. We're all like burnt out and tired of a lot of the issues that the pandemic created, in terms of how we show up to work or kind of the blend, perhaps. But I love this. And this is leading perfect into this conversation of self reflection, knowing yourself. Yeah, knowing your skills, knowing where your vibe, the word vibrate, I think is so no, I'm gonna keep using that. Let's keep using that. But let's let's go deeper there. Because we want to talk about how you self reflect how do you step into that? And I mean, you're an executive coach. I mean, we didn't do your formal bio here. But I mean, Kish consults with some of the top leaders in our, in the country, she flies around the world giving keynotes on how to like, show up with this, like, this is your space, this is your jam. Like how do you sit across the table and encourage someone to dig in and figure out who they are, you know, and really, if they're aligned with how they're showing up at the workplace,

I think for me is because I have a truly natural curiosity. Sometimes nosy.

You're not newsy.

too, to understand how people work and so on as a frontline fundraiser full time. I used to get all of the like donors and the prospects that posted it was because there was ego it was this there was that I was highly amused. Okay, like I went to conversations like, oh, oh, you're a tiring T. They didn't know that. They were on stage giving me my 19 minutes a comedy. Okay. I was excited about life. And so I learned over time to really read what people were really craving. I'll give you a really quick example that I think will tie this together about like how I'm able to understand where people show up. So I grew up in church, I'm a Christian people, people know, everybody knows about me, I've got huge faith. And I don't hide it. But I grew up in a very conservative denomination and grew up Seventh Day Adventist, and even as a kid going to church on Saturday, which is our Sabbath doing those kinds of things. I was a questioning child. And so I was like, So are you saying that this is religious? Or this doctrine or this tradition? But I mean, I understand because you don't either one is okay. But I want to just you were conflating I didn't use conflate when I was nine, I want you to say, but what I started to observe, even though I didn't have words, then was that in spaces, like church, like civic organizations I'm talking about it could be your rotary club. Okay, your PTA, or PTO. Some of y'all got to know what I'm talking about. Yes, situational power. And what I started to understand was, the more people kind of flex and fluff their feathers in these domains at church, in your sorority fraternity in your local community group, in your social or civic organization, I started to go, oh, oh, you don't have control at home, or you don't have power in some other aspect of your life. And so you are exerting that in this situation. So that's situational power. And so once I started to observe observe it. Remember, I didn't have words as a kid, I could just see things going on, then I could go, Oh, what is not really about me, or Oh, you're not so bad, that ability to be able to see how people were like moving in different spaces allowed me to be able to go a little bit closer to understand what was really driving them. And so, because I was a fundraiser and a marketer, and using communications, getting to the heart of what drives people to do a thing was, for me, the hallmark of a good leader.

Okay, I believe all of that happen. And I think it's so wise. And there's two, there's two things that I'm seeing bubbled up from that which you had incredible self awareness, which I think is a great Hallmark in terms of emotional intelligence, if you're going to be one of these empathy based leaders, if you're gonna have be a leader that embraces risk, if you want to go in and do the self reflection, you got to have some crazy good self awareness. And that means checking yourself. And the other thing is, you were such a good listener, like you could hear what they were saying, which wasn't exactly what they were saying you like listened in. And I think that's what's so interesting about and why you're so evolved, I think me You're so far beyond everybody else I know, in this space,

I'm always early to the party, I have to tell you that. I think one of the ways that folks can try to understand leadership is their self leadership. To me, I'm sure there's a fancy theoretical word, but I don't know, where you are literally, like governing yourself. And I said it's, you know, govern yourself accordingly. Well, there's that like, how do you govern in terms of your ability to do all of those things to be empathetic, to listen to lean in to see others to see how your response to thing affects others. And I think that we're used to leaders and leadership feeling like and having the experience of being up in this tower that you can't get to, when in what you're seeing, what you're describing is that there's leadership across all levels. And you've got to be practicing that, from the intern, to the associate, to the assistant to the analysts, to the manager, to the managing director to the VP to the add to the Senior VP to the C suite, it has to be practiced, which is why understanding how to manage up is to me a key leadership tool, because everybody's always reporting to somebody. So I run my own company, great. I'm so responsive to my clients, and my team. And my public, because there are folks who are doing this, that every move I am making, right, and so you have to be able to calibrate constantly. And I think what we're seeing in terms of like a huge naming of folks coming on done is that we're just zombies head sort of down, I sorted them, just doing what we're doing. Getting a check on the 15th and the 30th, having moments of inspiration and passion, which is why when you see folks go to conferences, and you see folks hear a good keynote speaker, and you see folks go to a training, they get that initial boost a little zest, then within three weeks, a month, six weeks, two years, where did it go? Gone? Because folks who are asleep. And so now, folks who are in physical leadership seats, CEOs, executive teams, etc, are literally being forced to confront many of the policies and practices that have kept folks on that conveyor belt for a really long time. And I think that that we're seeing that effect happen now. So to me, one of the ways that you can get off the conveyor belt, people just jumping off, they like to run off. So there's somebody who found the big red stop button over it in the corner, and it was like, just everybody stopping. And so the stopping is where the opportunity for self reflection is necessary to happen, because otherwise we're going to be existing and you want to be living over existing.

We're taking a quick pause today to thank our sponsor, neon one. Our friends over at NEON one provide software that connects organizations to what matters most their people and their passions. With the urine giving season here. There's a lot to learn about the results from giving Tuesday that could help your urine campaigns. Like would you have guessed that over 45% of all donors were new to the organizations they choose to support, or that 55% More of neon ones clients participated in Giving Tuesday compared to last year. Giving Tuesday was a huge success with over $22.2 million raised on neon one and Indivior appeals are still on the horizon. Are you getting ready for the final days of 2021 get support from other nonprofit It's like you buy joining neon ones here and giving connections community today, visit neon one.com/weird for good, or follow the link in our show notes. Hey, friends, after meeting some of the most visionary leaders and world changers in the nonprofit sector today, we realize they all have one thing in common. They invest in themselves and their teams so they can stay relevant to what's working now to succeed and scale their missions. You know, us we believe education is for all and that's when we created we're for good pro Pro is reimagining nonprofit professional development, giving you access to incredible live coaching events with some of the best thought leaders like kushana Palmer and Lynn Wester and more. Imagine being able to work through your challenges in real time. That's the power of pro. Every week, we host a new workshop giving you the playbook and tools to take immediate action, build your confidence and grow your impact. Be the Pro and get started today with a 14 day free trial head over to weird for good. pro.com/free. Okay, let's get back to this amazing conversation. Yeah, so much that I want to like, dive into because, you know, we obviously believe hugely in like these professional development experiences. I mean, it's part of how we grow. But I think that there's like absence of you got to do that in community to like, everything has a lens of like, you have to do it in community, I think of this conversation we had this week on the podcast with Kimberly O'Neill, she was kind of challenging us on the power of words. And we're riffing, you know, offline of just how difficult it is to be public in the public sphere and be talking all the time. Like, we're gonna say stuff all the time that's gonna and wrong with people. And how, you know, ask her how do you what kind of leader do you need to be to show up to be able to receive that feedback and do something to either change or to explain or whatever the next step is, and her number thing was self care, which I thought was really was interesting, you know, because if you're not taking care of yourself, then you can't, and I think that's exactly what I'm hearing from you. You can't live in today's world, and

you can't, and I think that we have mistaken self care for maintenance. And, and sort of the tropes of self care that now become big monetize industry, get a massage, go to stretch, go to the spa, take a walk, do mindfulness, listen to this app, right, like we have taken, the thing that for some folks is just what keeps you at a low hum, and not really giving people space to develop for themselves, their own self care practice. So like I will say, my maintenance practice, is making sure that I get my hair done every eight weeks, I get braids right now we'll see we'll see what happens. Gorgeous. Thank you. Before I had a I had a, I had a blind crack cut, it was very good. nails done every three weeks, I get a facial every six massage every month, I keep going. Those things for me are part of my self maintenance, because they make me happy. But then go up to self care. So care for me is looking at my calendar today and going I have my calendar again, and texting a good friend of mine who I'm having a meeting with and going, Hey, let's reschedule this meeting for next week if you can the new year if you can't, because I don't have time to eat. Yeah, that's a care practice. Chair is taking back control of your calendar. I am so annoyed when I talk to leaders who tell me they do not have I have to be in that meeting. I have to do that you don't have to do nothing but that okay, and pay taxes and even that, according to some people especially live, okay. So the reality is that whatever it is, that feels like it is squeezing the juice out of your brain. You have to release the pressure. What do you need to do to release that pressure? And so mine is in the things that I say no to and things that I say yes to? That is a care practice, not putting myself in situations where I have to twist myself into a pretzel for other people's temporary comfort. And so as a leader, regardless of your leadership seat, where are you twisting yourself into a pretzel for other people's temporary comfort? Isn't in document production? Is it in the number of meetings that you have? isn't in the types of donors that you want to go after? Is it the type of partnerships you're pursuing? Is it the date you going on at night? Okay, what is the light on and the fridge when you open it at night and what are you hungry for I think that's a lot of marks that I got close with on the mark quarter directly. When I think about the care aspect when I think about is when you do or don't do a thing are you respecting yourself? So for me care, self care, and self respect, have started to come together like magnets real time example, I got divorced when I was 31. I thought I was gonna be married forever and ever, I wanted to have three kids. And this is, you know, the house if it's busy. That's because I had all the things that didn't happen for me. I realized, just in the last year that I have spent a decade chasing that life, just trying to be chose. Now amassed it better, and I had better words, and I made it pithy and fun. But ultimately, I made decisions for myself that were not in alignment with my ability to be respectful of my own space and of my own care. Because of my desire for other people's aspirations of me, you just need somebody to take care of you. So it took me chronicling my dating life, which I have very publicly from June to this week. So that's almost six months to decide. So you talk about, you talk about practice, and self acceptance and calibration, that from this January until my birthday in May, I'm doing a full dating detox. And because I'm a nerd, I have a curriculum. I have books to study. I have passages, I have a special journal, it's going to be hard. Of course, the minute I said, I'm taking a detox, men started falling from the sky like man, give you all this, this personal example, because I think that we have gotten it twisted, that when we're thinking about how to have self care, have self awareness step fully into being leaders understand where our shortfalls are, or shortcomings are, that it only happens at work. No friends is happening in your personal life, too. I just want you to know. And so those things for me all go together. What do you think, John? I saw you nodding, I was that guy? No. After what did I

just, I guess I'm having a shrink moment here. You're speaking to self respect. I mean, this is a big thing. I mean, for me, personally, you know, because my personality type is Enneagram. Nine, I wanted peace, like I want peace, like in every facet. And I'm like the giantest pretzel here, you know, because I'm trying to keep the peace and all these pots. And I do see that it points back to where's the respect of self that sleep matters, that how you're eating, how you're working out how you're showing up for yourself out of respect for your body and your soul, your mind like, it is all interconnected. I think we need to rename it like I'm like respect to me, lands because I get it and I I feel it in my bones. You are such

a special human being, like incredibly special. And I think the reason that it's just kind of converging for me right now, the reason I think that you are so special in why I think that you are the most progressive thought leader in our sector, is because it's people hire a leadership coach to help them through their work. And you just hit the nail on the head and your approaches, it starts with you. And there is absolutely no way that you can be this luminary leader, even if you care so deeply about your people, if you do not take care and love yourself. And I love how vulnerable you are all the time. I love how real you are, you are keeping it real every single time we see you. And that is what makes you so special is because there is empowerment, and knowing thyself, and feeling like you can be that person. And so just the level of year you're coming in here and you are giving us like the most epic leadership tips here. But there's also a love letter here to yourself about what are we doing guys? Like how are we looking inside, loving ourselves having some pause? Because when we do that, and we start to unwind again, the pretzel. John, you think you're a pretzel? It's like I'm a Enneagram two, I'm the harmonizer Julie and I twist ourselves into all kinds of shapes just to make sure that everybody else is feeling great. And I think that they're this whole self care concept. I love what you're saying it jives completely with the conversation we had with Eleanor wells and the cohort for care girls. You know about self care is not enough. It's it's a step and it's a tactic and we call it temporary happiness at our house like it's gonna give you some temporary happiness but there's got to be some intentionality in how we're building this in long term because it's going to ripple out into the personal into the civic groups into the work into where you're volunteering, all of it and it's about not just existing living to your point and having a vibrant life whether you're going to work Whether at home, whether you're going to do something fun, so, yeah, I'm gonna process all this.

And I think and I appreciate that I think and to me, I am living this in real time. And so one of the things that I decided, when I said, I'm not going to just focus on fundraising, I don't have a really that great of a fundraiser, I raised millions of dollars offshore. But I last that long in any organization I was at my teams were fantastic. So they lasted, the donors kept coming. So I did something, right. But my own personal like tech box, man, and I know I'm hard on myself, but I also know what my A looks like, right? So I can say that and also go, I'm really, really, really freaking good at making sure that others see the power in themselves, and that they harness it and they action it. Because you can be scared to death of your power. It's taken me a very long time to go, oh, Kachina you need to be on somebody's screen. Oh, Kachina you need to do. Because I was like, Oh, my first year the fundraise I was 21 years old, the humble. Oh, they tell you that real quick, it is not about you. It is about the organization, you check your ego at the door, we celebrate the wins of the organization. And I'm like, I just wanna

that's like when you like to see you in a movie, you see the movies, and you're and you have a friend who's an extra. And they're like, we see that man in the back who's back in Korea, like, really, like, I'm an extra in a movie that I wrote, like, that doesn't make sense. And so, you know, what I am experiencing now, in real time, I absolutely believe will have an effect on the multitude. I really do. I don't really like the fact that I'm constantly going through the store. It's really annoying. And I put a post the other day that I was like, sometimes I feel like saying the guidance to those of us who are not believers who have a different faith center, whatever, you know, whatever your your thing is, like, just go with me here. But I did write a post that says sometimes I just want to say to God, can I speak to your manager? Charge hair, you know, cuz it just always it feels like you're just constantly doing. And so in this season, to the point of this conversation, if you are at a point in your life where you feel like you just been a grown and grown and learning in a trial and go take a break, you don't have to be learning and growing and self reflecting. And just developing and journaling and doing all the things and going on a journey and say onsen and going to the yoga retreat. You don't have to do that. Just go to the movies, get snacks, like it's okay to take a break if you have been in this sort of like moving thinking doing place. And just be. And I say that as somebody who was learning how to be one of the things that my therapist said to me. A few months ago, she was like, you know, Kishshana, you aren't a problem to be fixed. And I was like, why would you say that? Because I will fix the problem. Okay. Um, and so when we think about that acceptance, that reflection going into the new year, what I really encourage folks to do is to take an assessment, just take stock of your big wins, and your little ones have your big bloops. And your little ones have Yeah, man. I mean, I could have had a DA thing out, because it's so good to be able to see on paper like what you've done, I was doing our companies interview reporters writing it the other night. And I didn't really have that many big things on it this year, compared to last year. Last year, I was doing almost, but I did less things this year than I did in 2020. And what I realized when I was writing was because Kishshana, you said your Word of the Year was ease. So you put down things that didn't allow you to operate in ease. And that was scary for me. So there are some folks who are sitting in their leadership roles or getting ready to step into their leadership roles, that you think you got to buckle up. It's about to be a ride. What if you decided that that was not gonna be your story? What would that look like for you? So I think that that reflective opportunity doesn't have to be heavy. But it does have to be thoughtful. And you owe it to yourself, John, back to that, like, respect yourself enough to give yourself space to think about you.

And I think there's power in and if you have to type it out or like write it out. I think there's power in doing that and pause. Do that. Yeah, your annual report. It's like you have shareholders of Keshawn. Oh, you're doing that too. For your own self reflection. I feel like

and celebrate. I mean, looking back on just even a little punch list and it doesn't even have to be I'm telling you and I think this is what you're saying. kushana It doesn't have to be I fundraise this, it could be I had this really powerful relationship happen, I solve this issue in my family, you know, whatever it is, you know, we need to create pause. And I'm feeling that so much and as hustlers. You know, we just had Katie up hold on yesterday or Wednesday on the podcast, and she says, We are a sector that toils and we've got to quit toiling. We got to create some pause. And I think that starts with you.

Absolutely. And I really think that like, and this is what my program folks who are, you know, listeners to the podcast, I know, there are tons of folks who are just like in the programmatic work, right? Like, you don't have to create more activities. Okay. Okay. You don't have to create more things. Maybe the things you have right now, not the right things. But you don't have to create new things. Yeah, I think we have to your point about toiling, we have this idea that we got to do more, we got to show more, we got to shuffle. We got to dance, we got to but no, we don't. We do that. And I continue to believe some organizations don't need to exist. Every organization should have a timestamp on it. Sometimes your mission work is actually finite. That needs to be okay. That needs to be okay. It's so it works really well in the corporate sector. companies get acquired companies close companies grow companies merge, to continue to move the needle or whatever their mission or purpose is. And so it should be okay to make the decision that you've gone as far as you can, with the resources, the talent, the space you have. And maybe it's time to Voltron. So I think that as folks are like, reflecting, those are some of the things I might add to the list. And you might want to consider,

I just think what a beautiful way to wrap up this year. I mean, I think this is a place that I want to end on, you know, personally and as a community of just like taking stock. Looking back and realizing this next year can be what the shape, we want it to take, you know, let's hold to the values that we really want to perpetuate in our life and our organizations. And so okay, here's, here's the thing, you we we love you. Okay. We love that you show up and just pour yourself into this amazing podcast that you started. You started it in January this year, which is crazy, because it seemed like such a long time, right? I saw such a big podcast. Fascinating because you're so vulnerable all the time. Your guests are so interesting, diverse, even your family members, right come in it's cast, like I just please share about it because I want you know, our community here. I think we just really enjoy leaning into your podcast and the new season that's coming kind of share us.

Yeah, so let's take this offline, the podcast for everyday leader. So when I started it, I was like, I just want to have conversations about the stuff that we talked about when a meeting is over. Like the questions that we asked ourselves the like, Girl Mimi in the parking lot, because so my podcast really explores fanatically, like what we are feeling and so going into this new year, season three is really gonna explore like the calamities of leadership, because I think that folks sometimes feel like you just have to be this, like, I got to get it right, I got to be perfect. And so my guests are going to talk about the ways in which he just didn't get it. All right. And I'm gonna teach folks about how to actually start the steps of leaning into understanding yourself. Understand that I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist or mental health professional. So thankfully, I have really great friends in the world who will come on who are, but that this is going to be a space where we can laugh about the foolishness of being parents and caregivers, sometimes at home and sometimes at work, because you know, okay. All right, what are you doing that? And what does it mean when you have relationships at work? And what happens when those relationships, fracture? Micromanaging, not being able to get along with your colleagues, not being able to understand that and navigate hardboard relationships. So my podcast will continue to explore that and continue to explore like just the fabric of how humans behave, and working in home. It's all harder, but it will kick off January 6, for season three, episode one, and I think it will continue to grow. I respond to what folks want and also what I see out in the world.

We just think it's one of the most dynamic podcast for Nonprofit Professionals. And even if you're listening to this, and you're like, I'm not a leader in my organization. The point is, everybody is a leader. We've had this conversation and so if you Love kisses energy, the way that we do if you love the way that she challenges your thinking, the way that she's helping to level you up, go check out let's take it offline. And I have to give you one more shout out because you came into pro, you have an incredible good guide, and I row. And thank you so much for coming in to our little Netflix for nonprofits. But you came in and did a live coaching on leadership. And we had so many people coming up shooting questions to you. And it was one of the most impressive professional development, you know, hours I've ever seen in my career. And so I just have to give a plug for pro because the life coaching that's going on in there, what you've done with your good guide on leadership and how you walk people, you know, through how do we just create these very dynamic environments and cultures? And how do we have just luminary leadership is so inspiring. And I just thank you for being yourself for bringing this vibrant community of vulnerability and love of self into what we do. I just think it's going to help us level up the sector in an amazing way.

And I'm so excited for it. You know, I want us in this sector to stop feeling like the stepchildren of the work world. Yes, there are so many of us who have multiple degrees, and multiple certifications and designations and all of the learnings both in the school of hard knocks and the School of take all your money until you have too long. We are you know, I think Pro allows us to be able to do that and make that accessible. And I think it's gonna, it's going to invite I don't want to say force because it will force something, but it's going to invite folks who are in this space who have gotten quite lazy at the kind of content they create the kind of education we provide. To really step up, step forward and step into the future of work.

I'm so glad to be on this journey with you. I mean, every time we hang with you, I just can't wipe the smile off my face too. So thank you Kish.

Absolutely. Thank you.

Hey, friends. Thanks so much for being here. Did you know we create a landing page for each podcast episode with helpful links, freebies and even shareable graphics. Be sure to check it out at the link in this episode's description. You probably hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community. It's free and you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. You can sign up today at we are for good.com backslash Hello. One more thing If you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and your support helps more people find our community. Thanks friends. I'm our producer Julie confer and our theme song is sunray by Remy Boris boom