Business stories are climate stories: rewriting the finance journalism playbook | Global Journalism Seminar with Sharon Chen, Managing editor, Bloomberg Green

12:30PM Nov 30, 2022

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climate

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climate change

reporters

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sharon

terms

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greenwashing

Imagine you can and I certainly hope you can hear me. So first up, prospective Season's Greetings for everyone. It's a bittersweet moment for us at the fellowship program here. As we wind down what has been an intense couple of weeks, some of our fellows will be leaving us by the end for the middle of December. We will be sad to see them go but it has been an incredibly enriching experience and fantastic conversations and we promise that this one will be as well. So first and foremost, may I welcome our guest for our global journalism seminar series. Sharon Chen, changin Sharon, welcome. It's a long bio. So I thought I'd say hi, before I start reading it off. We are in the A's Managing Editor of Bloomberg green that's based in London. She is also former Beijing bureau chief something I imagine we will chat about through the course of this conversation. Bloomberg green just for those who are not well versed with it was launched by Bloomberg in January 2020. Ostensibly to keep a focus directly and on climate as a topic as a cross cutting topic. I would imagine, and things have gone fairly fast from there for Bloomberg green. The last data that we have is indicating that 2022 ad revenue is going to see 100% increase. Editorial Staff itself has tripled. So that's a big sized group to be working with and by way of a special edition, Sharon is also part of our Oxford climate journalism network. Another one of the programs being run at Reuters, so it's doubly special. Sharon to see you over here. Thank you for making time for having this chat. Let me launch right into it because we're coming off. What has been unusually is a highlight event around climate and news around climate. How will Sherman shake and cook for you guys? And you know, what is the sense that you came came back with from that event?

Hi, well, I guess I should preface that by saying I'm on maternity leave. So I wasn't actually check. And I haven't been in the newsroom for four months. But you know, I have been following the coverage. And I did leave our coverage at COP 26 last year. Yeah, I mean, you know, the expectation going in, I think was that it wasn't going to be as big an event as Glasgow last year and Paris, because every five years is kind of like when the try to raise ambition and come up with a new plan. That said, with that lower bar, I think actually there was more interest relative to what was the expectation and it just speaks to how, you know we've had this year, especially this summer in the Northern Hemisphere of these extreme weather events, and that's really driven home, kind of the impacts of climate change, and it's really rallied a lot of people there are so many conflicting news events, obviously, with the energy crisis, the war and COVID that you would actually expect them to be less attention on cop 27, especially since it's such a technical kind of bureaucratic event and it runs for two weeks. So it's very, very difficult to sustain interest in an event like that. But you know, I did see coverage across all the major newspapers and websites, maybe not, you know, really nitty gritty, extensive stuff, but the fact that it was covered, you know, I think is already a step forward. In terms of the content itself. I think the big takeaway was the establishment of a the agreement to establish a loss and damage fund. So, you know, when we think about climate change, we think about mitigation, which is to stop emissions and adaptation, which is how do we adapt our cities and our lives and our infrastructure to deal with the impacts of climate change? But then there's a third element, which is, how do we compensate the countries and communities that are most deeply affected by climate change, but haven't done much to contribute to the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and you know, it's a thing that's been long controversial in climate diplomacy and a huge step forward that they managed to get that on the agenda and to agree on it, but on the downside, there was, you know, very, very little support to raise ambition. And a final outcome reflected that to cut greenhouse gas emissions more quickly, which is obviously the only recourse we have to stop to stop climate change.

No, absolutely. And I want to talk about loss and damage specifically later in the conversation. But I think it's interesting the point that you raise about the interest around this event and climate generally, are you feeling more and more sharing that audience you know, audience impact or interaction is an impact in itself of how they're witnessing and experiencing experiencing climate change? Because, you know, in the nature of things Sharm el Sheikh was the minicamp, you know, people didn't have very large expectations of it. So it's interesting that audiences did turn to it even more so than they did in the last cop gathering.

Yeah, I mean, I think climate impacts definitely have a huge is a huge reason why people pay more attention to it, but also just you know, increasing awareness, the younger generation, greater acceptance of the science behind climate change. I mean, for green, our approach is that we, when we started green, the idea was that this is settled fact like, We are not here to convince people that climate change is a real thing and to kind of go over like not not to get mired in that debate, but to just move forward to you know, we are talking to people who already acknowledge the severity of the problem and they want to know like, what solutions are real what's being done what the government's doing, what do they make of corporate promises to address emissions? And so the fact that we started out with that mindset, and our audience has continued to grow and grow much more than we expected than the company expected and advertising has been, you know, like, advertiser interest has been way more than we expected. And we've expanded into a podcast into a TV show into newsletters six days a week, like the fact that all of that happened, I think shows that there is a growing audience out there who have moved past the debate of whether or not we should care about climate change, but just want to know what's being done to solve it.

I'm going to play hardball now for a little bit and ask you to sort of defend the Bloomberg green model for us and for newsrooms, across the world listening. Because, you know, this has been a debate about whether we're talking about newsroom change from top to bottom, versus creating another desk, which is oftentimes what happens with climate news, you just get relegated to being another beep. So you know, you're in charge of pitching the story. If it's interesting, it makes it if it isn't, it doesn't. Where as perhaps the debate around climate journalism should be this is a lens that you have to attach to every story that you put out fashion, business, Entertainment, Sports, as we've seen, what's the Bloomberg green approach? And how do you do that? How do you cross cut? I mean, I

think our approach is probably between what you just described so it's neither the creation of a you know, climate only desk and only climate reporters pitch stories to only climate editors, and then they, you know, put out the stories and it just goes into this little section of the website right.

That's, you know, like you have to scroll all the way down to fine but it's also not where there are no dedicated climate reporters and editors and you know, it's it's across the newsroom and editor in chief, give some kind of edict and then people start doing climate journalism within Cappy fly. The way Bloomberg green it works is is in between those two so we are a small team, a small but growing team of reporters and editors who focus on climate change, but like just roughly I mean, I would say like I the stories I edit, like half of them are from, quote unquote Bloomberg green reporters, but half of them are from reporters all across the newsroom. So they are writing about climate change. But, you know, with regards to the companies and the beats and in the countries that they cover, and I think that has been the success of the way we've done it, so we have like a small group of experts, subject matter experts, but then we constantly evangelize to the rest of the newsroom, and we work hand in hand with them. So they have the context and the sources and the deep knowledge of the companies and the governments that we want to examine. And then on our side, we have the subject matter experts who have you know, like followed cop since the beginning, like who have really drilled down into the science and we read the IPCC report every time it comes out and follow all these really specific climate arguments and then we're able to marry the two and I think like that has been, that has been the success of bringing our climate journalism into the mainstream a bit more.

And I want to talk about climate and business per se, because really, intuitively there are so many crosscuts when you're talking about you know, both both those areas, but just for a second chan I want to pause because and I'm sure you experienced this at the Climate Network is well, the global south is is really deprived, in terms of, you know, the ability to have access to the ability to have across the board support for the kinds of stories that they would like to do around climate. You know, for newsrooms listening in for what do it what would you say is a great sort of 123 starting point, how do you get a few even open to talking about how to bring climate into the newsroom and into stories?

Yeah, I mean, this is something that I personally feel very strongly about. Because, you know, like I was based in Asia, and even before I covered climate change, like working for an American news organization, it's very difficult to get your stories surface when 70% of the audience is in is in the US. That said, I mean, like, let's just look at COP 27 Like the central topic was this north south divide, and not just that Bloomberg green, like I saw across newsrooms, like it was such an opportunity for so many people to do stories about the global south. Like it was a perfect opening, right because this was the central topic. It allowed people to write deep dive stories into the climate impacts that are happening in the global south. And also with you know, the flooding in Pakistan, obviously, like that was a huge was a huge global event. Like that was not something that was ignored. You know, by and large by the international media so I think the fact that climate change is so you can't separate it from these from these questions of equality and decolonization and climate justice. It actually opens the door to writing these stories because the western countries are being held to account or being called on to do something. So I mean, so firstly, there's that opening and then secondly, the flag the fact that it's global warming, like it's a global issue, right? The tonne of co2 that is emitted by the US it goes up into the atmosphere and it affects people all over the world. Same with China. Same with India. Like that's another kind of guiding principle that allows us to do a lot more global stories because even though it is very specific problems, there's just such a direct way to tie it, obviously to a global issue. So you can be writing about you know, like we did a story about them trying to build a green city in Pakistan and it's very in whether or not that was the right solution to help clean up this river. And without the climate lens, I mean, that would be a very local story, but then because countries all over the world are looking for climate solutions. It kind of opens the door to using these as like examples or kind of ways of examining whether something is the right way, the right or wrong way to do something. And then I also think, in general, the people who are interested in climate, in reading a deep dive climate story in the first place, are probably a little bit more open to reading about stuff that's happening outside their countries and happening in the global south. I mean, that's a generalization but I have found it to be somewhat true.

Absolutely. And this is a bit of a cheeky slide from me, but what we are really proud of also this year is having launched along with carbon brief, the global south climate database where, you know, we found that it wasn't just journalists who didn't have enough information. There wasn't enough representation in terms of the experts that they were speaking to. They were all based in the northern part. of the world had specific opinions about nations perhaps that they haven't visited. You know, ironically, do you think that's something that needs to be worked on as well to try and getting access to experts who have some kind of local context to understand the language and the syntax of what they're talking about in terms of climate change in Pakistan or you know, Syria heat across South Asia or something in South America?

I mean, I think that's so crucial because you can call up a scientist at ESA or at you know, the Met in the UK, right and they can tell you about the weather. It's in China, or they can tell you about the weather in Brazil, but how, how useful is that information? Is that quote in actually conveying what's happening on the ground, right? It would be the same you could you could get the data from them and what you're seeing most of the time basically just reflects what the data shows this record. This record was hit or you know, this is the most extreme flooding we've seen in how many years but you would get so much more value in quoting a scientist or an expert or someone who's experiencing what's happening on the ground, then you would, quoting a scientist who is merely taking the data and turning it into a nice, you know, giving you a nice phrase or a nice, kind of, you know, punchy quote, you know, I really think like, what are you really adding to the story and that is, but in my experience, I found the challenge with that is actually getting the reporters in the West to work with the reporters on the ground because it's very easy, I think, sometimes to overlook that step and feel like you can just churn out a story out of New York or London or something about something that's happening in the global South, but at Bloomberg, I mean, we have journalists all over the world. We have this privilege of having this huge pool of reporters that we can tap and I think like what's really key is to continue that discipline of doing that and making sure that we're first and foremost involving the people who are on the ground and that's the way we get the best stories.

Want to talk for a minute about the unique frustrations or challenges of being a business journalist who's trying to apply a climate lens given the environment you know, you covered cop last year and I remember Larry Fink wrote a statements saying every company and industry will be transformed by the transition to net zero and when you come to this year, is a quite different picture, especially for corporates. I mean, we're now hearing of terms like green hashing where they don't want to deal with disclosing a lot of data, I guess because of the pushback. That they face but also that they find it quite onerous, to keep answering questions around that. How does it lend itself in terms of being the business journalist and trying to think around climate when you're reporting on companies and the way they and the way they function?

I mean, I don't think covering climate change through a business lens. It's any more frustrating than covering climate change through any lens. Because you know, there's just so much greenwashing and it's just so easy for anybody, you know, like companies but also governments are startups like, just even activists because the topic is both so complex and kind of all these new terms like net zero and carbon neutral and ESG. And, you know, in terms of finance like sustainability, linked bonds, all these new financial instruments, they're just popping up all over the place like with offsets as well and carbon credits that, that it just takes a lot of patience to interrogate what people are really settling and trying to figure out what they're really doing and then bring it back to how does this actually affect how much carbon is in the atmosphere? Like, I think the challenge is, you know, we are inundated with so much news, like so many press releases come out like this company says they're doing this. The Stock Exchange says they're doing that, and we have hundreds of reporters across the newsroom, right. And so they are messaging us like, what do you make of this? What do you make of that? Do you think this is legit? Do you think that and having to make a call. It's not always easy, like, it's very difficult and sometimes, you know, like, we might publish a six paragraph story on something that came out because it was a big company or because it was a big announcement from the US, for example, without having the time to truly examine it. But I mean, I think that that is just kind of something that will happen, for sure. And then it's about going back and really looking at what they're, what they're proposing and what they're talking about and it might take months before we do a real deep dive into, for example, ESG ratings. But when we do that, you know, we really get to the core of fundamentally what is the argument or what is the proposal that people are making for this to be a climate solution and does it make sense? So yeah, I mean, I think I wouldn't say it's frustrating. It's actually there's so much low hanging fruit, you know.

There's only opportunities right? You raise an important point though, Sharon, and you know, as early as tomorrow, Reuters will be releasing some very interesting data around audiences across a select few countries and how they're consuming climate news. But let me ask you on both these counts, you know how y'all have navigated it? One is trying to make as you say, some of these very complex terms or outcomes, simple but not dumb them down. And on the other hand hand to not overwhelm your audience to not make them feel like you know, it's all going to hell and you know, that we just crawl back into my day and wake up I don't know a decade later.

Yeah, I mean, that's a huge challenge there. I've been through many, many drafts of stories that when you're trying, when you're trying to explain one complex issue, for example, offsets and then you add on that on top of that, another issue like I edited a story about crypto, like the crypto world trying to address the problem of bad offsets and it's like, you have to explain what it offset is you have to explain what the crypto thing is. And then you have to explain the science behind you know, the Global Warming Science of the carbon in the atmosphere and when you try to explain three complicated things in one story I read it really makes your head spin. But I think like you say, you know, the the most important thing is to trust your audience, you know, to think if someone is investing their time in this story, like they want to understand what's happening. They don't want you to gloss over the details or to try and simplify everything to the point where you're just trying to you know, a lot of a lot of climate solutions are very new and very nascent and it is a gray area. You know, it hasn't been proven that it will work. It won't work. And there are lots of questions of scalability, you know, what direction economies go? What kind of, for example, renewable energy like which one wins out how the economics of it changes, like there's so many things we can't predict. Right? And so I think it's more about trying to present things in a concise way. And not deciding this is an up arrow story, or this is a down arrow story. You know, sometimes it's super clear, and sometimes it's not. And the important thing is to try to be as honest as we can in presenting it and to trust the reader. Help them as much as we can, but then let them make their own decision. Yeah.

Part of the challenge is also the fact that in many countries, climate journalism is now akin to investigative journalism. It's often taking on governments, you know, and folks who don't wish for this information to be made public. I want to use the story that y'all did around Qatar as a case study, you know, walk us through what happened over there, how you got the lead in terms of cutter buying bogus offsets as you report and how you followed up on it.

Well, I wasn't involved in that story at all because I haven't been in the office. But I did take a look at the story. And I think I can talk about it generally. So we did a story months ago, that originated from an NGO that first looked at the offsets that Qatar is selling and, you know, I mean, I would just say that this is not the first sporting event to make a carbon neutral claim that's completely bogus. I mean, it has happened repeatedly. And it all centers around the same idea that you know, we're, we're going to build do all this construction, but we're only going to count a little bit of the emissions because the idea is that we're going to continue using this infrastructure for years and years and years by obviously, you know, there is no guarantee that that's going to happen, and then using offsets to offset the emissions that we that we do count, which are already a huge underestimate. So in that case, you know, we did a story earlier on a shorter story based on an NGO report. And I'm assuming then, you know, like, it singled out the it singled out the new offset, very verifying organization that they set up to verify the offsets for this for the World Cup, and then the story that that you're talking about, drilled down specifically into that organization. And so, you know, I think that's a very common way that climate stories are written. an NGO might put out an interesting report or point out something to us but then the responsibility is on us to really drill down into it and to do that on the ground reporting and flesh that story out. Yes, I mean, that's like a common way to because there are a lot of environmental NGOs and activist organizations doing this kind of work day to day.

You must be familiar though, as someone who's leading this team, in in the area of intimidation of journalists when they are trying to report on the climate. There are examples from you know, the land where I come from India, where even talking about Company X had target days and they didn't meet that target even that meets with a lot of pushback, you know, for the journalists, how do you how do you protect your journalists in that environment and help them report the best climate stories they can in such an environment?

I mean, I think it applies to any investigative reporting that we do right? It's not specific to climate change, like I was based in Beijing for two years. And it's the same thing. It's not just when you try to write about climate change, but when you try to write about anything, in an environment that does not acknowledge or provide for freedom of press. And so it's, it's the same the same way that our news organization would protect any journalist I mean, it would apply to climate as well. You know, of course, we stand by them. We make sure that what we're reporting is factual and that we are sure of it and it has gone through our kind of channels of making sure that we are confident of this information. And, you know, we make sure that we give them all right of response, we've covered all, you know, make sure all the ground is covered, and we've done everything that we're supposed to do. And if there is pushback, and then we have to we have to stand by the story, and we have to react and you know, I mean there are it's very hard to answer this question, because it would totally depend on the situation and the country where the you know, in the case of the war in Ukraine, do we fly people out? You know, do we have to evacuate people or in China like do we have to think of if someone is facing harassment do we have to figure out a way to get them out of the country? What about your family? But yeah, I mean, I think in general, we would just apply the same principles that we apply to any story, and the way we react will be the same as well,

too. I imagine another challenge for your newsroom might be how to appeal to a younger audience. I mean, the younger generation is more attuned to issues around climate but may not be sampling news as much as the generation above them. I know you're on maternity leave. So you've got to Gen. I don't know what in the process of growing up. How do you think about that, you know, telling stories that might appeal to a younger generation. Do you think about the impact of green influencers? Or do you think about which platforms work best? How has it worked for you?

I mean, we haven't started a tick tock account. But I, you know, I, I think young people are like, Why do we have to target a story at a at a young person? You know, I think young people who are interested in climate change, like they want to understand what's going on like they would read a story about ESG ratings and how to invest manually make sure that your money isn't supporting fossil fuels, they they would also be a deep dive into fast fashion. But I do think maybe they might find the consumer stuff more applicable to them just because that is an area in which they can actually act. But also I mean, you look at COP 27 coverage right? Or climate diplomacy coverage, the quote unquote boring more boring stuff like it's it's young activists who are the ones making their voices heard at events like this right and the ones who are talking about it on social media. And the ones who are really holding their governments to account and so yeah, I mean, I don't think we we really like sit down and think, Oh, what did the youth want to read about climate change? You know, I think probably, I don't have the data to back this up, but I suspect a lot of people who read about climate change are probably on the younger side to begin with. And Bloomberg audience is a bit older. So just in terms of our own audience, like they would tend to skew a bit older. I think.

We have some interesting data on that and I'm excited for that to be released tomorrow. I think it would paint a good picture in terms of context of what's happening around climate news. You know, on that point that you were making about access to experts and access to expertise. What also happened, Sharon is that there is a growing number of independent journalists who are very passionate about climate want to scale themselves around this issue, but don't have the comfort perhaps of a newsroom or the structure of a newsroom. How would you, you know, how would you advise supporting them? What's the best way to help them get access to data to get access to information, what's a good couple of hacks that you'd like to share?

We actually work with a lot of independent journalists. So we do take a lot of freelancers and we have done partnerships. So I mean, that's really good. Well, I mean, the climate journalism network, is actually I think it's amazing, and more people should do it. And you know, I've been really Yeah, it's been really amazing to me to see journalists from all over the world. Come together and the resources available there. I mean, like having like I, I think those seminars that are that are led by all these experts, like that's a great way. There's so much free climate data available out there. That I can't really I can't think of them off the top of my head now. Sorry, I just have like baby brain. But there is a ton of free information out there, which I think makes climate reporting unique. And, you know, I know we want to talk about data visualization and data driven stories and you know, climate journalism is is such fertile ground for that just because there is so much research that's out there that you that people have access to and that can you tell the compelling stories.

You know, you mentioned loss and damage right at the start of our conversation. And I think that is hugely important also, because of the kinds of climate events that we've seen. I mean, in Pakistan or the kind of droughts we're seeing in parts of Africa. How do you report on that in the sense that has your reportage focusing on the global south are the extreme issues unfolding the increased over the last year or so? Yeah,

I mean, this was I mean, there's specific ways that we report on that so we have, you know, regular calls with the reporters in for example, in in India, we have a regular call with the reporters there. The reporters there who are interested in writing about climate change, and obviously loss and damage is a huge topic that we talk about. There are also climate impacts and also the move to net zero and then also just think, trying to get the stories done. It's really about identifying reporters on the ground who are interested in the topics as well. So finding allies and finding people who are passionate about that and working closely with them. In terms of loss and damage. I mean, we also try to look at it from a business angle. So we've we do stories about kind of, we've done a story about how it is the more climate vulnerable countries that ended up having to pay higher interest rates to borrow to fund projects that would help them to adapt to climate change, because of their climate vulnerability, so because their team is climate vulnerable. The risk is higher to lend the money and then it's a vicious cycle where then they can't get these projects off the ground. And we also have looked at the what finance institutions are committing to and how they are involved. in it. So I think those kinds of angles are a bit more business specific. But yeah, I mean, in general, our our resources have, we have increased resources and focus on uncovering loss and damage and a lot of that means just working more closely with the local bureaus.

This is a bit of a, you know, one of those rapid fire questions, but at this point, as someone who's leading a team that is engaged and interested in climate, you're also at a position where you can influence thought. In other newsrooms across the world. What gives you the most hope around climate journalism, and what do you see as the biggest challenge still?

I mean, the fact that most major news organizations have a climate desk now I think it's a huge development. You know, I like I'm constantly seeing people hiring for climate reporters and editors and expanding your desk. And I think it just shows that even with all these events competing for attention, news organizations are investing in climate journalism, and they do see it as a place that is a place that's gonna grow. I mean, I think the challenge is, even though you have a climate desk, are you playing in on the front page, right? Are you pushing those stories to the top of the agenda? Are you saying as a news organization, we are telling the reader they need to read your stories rather than responding to what readers want to read? In which case, you know, it's always going to be kind of the latest political drama or whatever is going to be on the fan page, right and so the challenge is like how how much a news organization is going to going to decide that we are going to make this the story of the day rather than even if it doesn't get hit, or even if it doesn't get that much traction, but, but the fact that we are putting it out there shows that we think you should read the story even if even if you're not clicking, even if it's not getting those clicks, you know, saying this

challenge yeah, absolutely. And I imagine not waiting for it to hit crisis mode. You know, Pakistan became a story globally as well only when the the breadth of the destruction got quite amplified. Let me pause with my questions for a bit because our fellows have lined up there. So let me switch across to the room where they're all seated. Freda from Sweden has a question first, if we can get the hang the camera angle to face her Thank you, Peter. Hi. Hi,

Susanna good color for so thank you. Sure. freed up from Sweden and here Oxford. I'm working on a paper about cross collaborations in between beats in the newsroom looking at like the traditional newsroom. So I wonder do you as an amateur or or your newsroom Have you talked about how to build a motivation culture have to have to motivate journalists to help each other out across borders or across beats? What's in it for them to do that?

I mean, we have a lot of programs within the newsroom that that helped to kind of elevate local voices and try to you know, get journalists to collaborate across i mean, i i What do you mean by motivate? People

think that my approach is that it can be in a traditional newsroom. It's challenged to get one beat reporter to collaborate with another beat reporter. But we need that both expertise to be able to do to do your audience justice. So do you address this maybe in any way near newsroom?

I mean, yeah, like I said, we do have formal programs that help to bring people together but I think just speaking from Green experience. Yeah, there are always going to be reporters who who are more territorial or individual and prefer to work on your own and you know, are not super collaborative, but then there are also reporters who are going to really want to work with other people, right and who really can come together and understand the importance of the story. That they're working on. And I think the key is to just focus on the people who want to do that. So to encourage them and to help them and give them all the resources that they can to make that happen. I don't think going to somebody's boss and telling their boss to tell them that they need to work with somebody else is ever arrest recipe for success. Like I don't think, you know forcing people to work together is is really going to produce a really original and creative story that kind of goes to the next level. I mean, at the very to have a successful collaboration like you need to have. The two parties need to be driven and need to have the same goal and sometimes that just means finding the right people and pairing the right people together rather than having a formal structure that forces them to work together.

Okay, hi, next question is from Brett who is from the USA hybrid. Go ahead.

Hi, Sharon, thank you so much for speaking with us today. My name is Brad. I'm from the USA and my project here is actually about how the media has covered and will cover crypto. And I am also interested in in doing more future coverage of climate change. Obviously, crypto and climate change, as you mentioned earlier can be closely intertwined sometimes but what I'm curious to know from your perspective being at Bloomberg is since you're so close to so many businesses. It seems like we've we've gotten in probably a long but but also maybe a relatively short time, from businesses not caring at all to at least faking it through the large amount of greenwashing that you mentioned earlier. So what I'm curious about is in terms of actual steps, you know, a sort of tipping point in the corporate community. Do you feel like running closer to that than we were maybe five years ago? And are you optimistic about the future of that?

It goes to what eradicating greenwashing

no just are to kind of like a corporate tipping point within the business community where it like since we've gone from algorithm care, this doesn't matter to Oh, hey, it matters and we're doing it to how close do you think we are to actually transforming that to okay, but now we're now we're now we're actually going to do it.

I mean, I think we have reached a tipping point where companies are doing things B purely because like there are all these net zero goals. And you know, we have like investors putting pressure investors and governments, governments putting in laws and investors putting pressure on companies to reach net zero and we are seeing this transition to green energy. You know, the question is how long it takes, right. And so, the idea that companies are going to have stranded assets if they continue to invest in fossil fuel infrastructure, or the idea that they're going to lose customers if they continue to, you know, emit and not be able to, to disguise it with marketing, which is becoming harder and harder. Like that is the reality that companies face nowadays and they are becoming greener, but this process is slow and laborious and there is a huge amount of greenwashing like you say, which is why? I think the stories that we do are so crucial, but I think we have already passed the tipping point like there isn't there are no companies that continue to exist with the mindset that they will not be impacted by climate change and that they will not be impacted by net zero demands.

Okay, let's hop across to Edie who has also been tracking climate and has IV.

Yeah, hi, Sharon. Thanks for talking with us. So yeah, I'm a financial journalist, also from the US. My project here is actually very relevant about how to cover sustainability as a business and financial journalist. So my question for you is that you mentioned there are a lot of free climate data out there. In your opinion, what is the quality of those data? How comfortable are you using them? It's different kinds of stories and also what what is the granular level of the data okay, so quite heavy level, just the way the country or impact on particular natural disaster events or they are actually attributable to companies now, and how hard how trustworthy are these data?

I mean, in terms of company data, like there is not, you know, basically the main source of data we have is the data that the companies put out unless we invest in like we did, we did a big project on the emissions from major Chinese companies. And so what we did was we went and looked for all the raw data that was publicly available, for example, like how many tonnes of steel they produce or how many cars they use, and then we worked with an expert to estimate what those emissions are, and then compare that with the emissions that the companies actually report and so that was a process that was, you know, we had to spend months getting the raw data and then the experts that we worked with had to spend months equating that raw data, turning it into co2 numbers. So I think in terms of corporate emissions, I mean, like it, you're not going to get that granular level of data unless you specifically go and focus on that company and try to figure out a way to deduce what their emissions are. My in terms of company and country level emission, there's a lot of data available for that and then also broken down into industries. Yeah, and then also I mean, on the on the Bloomberg terminal. The company has done an onboarding a lot of that data, which makes it easy for our reporters to look that up. But again, like that is self reported, like it's very difficult to find independent emissions data for at the company. Level.

Data on the company level, how do we know it on the industry level, like how are those collected?

How do well, I think it depends like you know, satellite imagery is one way that they can estimate emissions but then also, like going in basically going to the country and looking at like I mentioned, looking at how much of some product they are producing and then looking into scientific research. You know, a ton of steel produced in this method results in this amount of co2, and then you kind of use that to estimate on on a national level, what the emissions are. Of course, there are a lot of different methodologies behind that as well. And basically would go back to academic research looking at specific industrial processes or specific products like a car in the UK, you know, emits this much in in a day or an hour based on the kind of fuel they might burn or the kind of emission standards they might have for for their cars. So it will really depend on looking at the specific methodologies that these academic papers use to estimate and then also how they calculate the the, the production numbers for those countries.

I'm conscious of time and I can see the questions lining up so I'll quickly switch to the next one. Vanessa has a couple of questions as well. And there's

Yeah, hi. Two questions. The first one is you have the data dashboard that looks great, thank you. I want to know if people I don't know engage with that so if it is important for the audience, or I don't know, someone told me that people used to skip that information. Do you know do people engage with it? Is there something you can tell about it?

I mean, you can really engage with the data in that it is not some of it is real time, but because it's all automated and linked back to the original source. Some of it is also like monthly or yearly. So I mean, obviously like it was annual data, like it wouldn't update for who years, so there isn't really much to engage with. But really the idea behind the data Dash was to, to give people kind of a snapshot of these are the impacts of climate change, and this is how much emissions going up how much temperatures are rising and stuff like that. So yeah, I mean, I don't think the the intent in the first place was not for people to be clicking into it, and engaging, quote, unquote, with the data because it doesn't change that much. It doesn't change enough for there to be that kind of interaction. It's more of it was more of like a branding exercise where when you click on a Bloomberg story, you see that snapshot data dash and it sort of breaks down these important data points that are related to climate change. Yeah,

my second question would be about the use of structure so you started 2020 How was the team that then and how did it change? So was there a new team or new people there? Or maybe you can give us a bit more insight?

Yeah, so I I didn't join. I wasn't part of green when it started in January 22. Yeah, I was still in Beijing. But we started as a really small team. I think there were maybe like five reporters and three editors. And yeah, like it started as as kind of the small team that relied very heavily on on reporters and editors or other beats to, to bring to to put together stories and also, you know, we published a magazine. And since then, we've grown a lot. So now we have maybe, I think maybe 15 Reporters across the globe. We we had a reporter in Beijing, but she's recently gone on sabbatical, and then we have a reporter in Tokyo as well and more in Europe, and we've also added more in the US in part because we we have introduced this new focus on consumer green consumer reporting. And so we've hired a bunch of reporters to focus specifically on green, green consumer stories. So looking at EVs at green products and more consumer companies. So that's one way that we've grown and then we've also grown in terms of platforms. So we had we had the website and, and the magazine and the newsletter, and now we have a podcast that's hosted by one of our reporters and a TV show that's going to launch soon. So in terms of the structure, I mean, it hasn't really changed in that it's a small group working with the rest of the newsroom, but But it's changed in that it's just become bigger, across more platforms. And I think also kind of organically over the last few years. It's changed in that we is changed in that the more people have seen our coverage and learn from us. We just work kind of more hand in hand with the other teams and just continually bring more people kind of into the green universe.

You know, on that chair, and before I hop across to Yossi who also has a question from the room. What's your experience been with the paywall? I know it's a stands for Bloomberg generally and I know that you took it down temporarily during the cup coverage, but are you finding that people are reaching out for stories and they're willing to pay you and pay to read?

I mean, so we also took out a paywall at COP 2016 Yeah, I mean, I think it did help subscriptions a little bit, but not as much as we would hope. I guess is it ever as much as you hope? And I add about I don't know about about what happened this year, because I wasn't there.

But there's no trend that you've tracked in terms of the fact that stories are getting more and more audience to come in and read and they're willing to pay to engage with climate news.

Um, I mean, yeah, in a general sense. Yeah. I would say that, you know, they do. But it also depends and, you know, Bloomberg is is pretty expensive.

Such as life

you're sick on Finland. Thank you very much for talking to us today. Um, earlier, you mentioned that one way to engage younger audiences is to make stories that are somehow related to consumers because they're your friends can see what they themselves can do in order to have an impact. And I definitely agree, and I think a lot of us want to have stories where we can sort of like, get some advice on what to do if we want to battle the climate crisis. But I also wonder if sometimes within journalism, there is too much emphasis on the individual and on consumers, and the little things that we can do until emphasis on the big picture and governments and companies and so on. So I was wondering if this is something that you recognize and how do you strike a balance at Bloomberg green, in order to kind of like have enough of that individual side of the story, but also focusing on the big picture enough as well?

I mean, do you think that there's too much emphasis on what individuals can do in the media I feel like there's actually a lot of emphasis on what governments and companies are doing and relatively little emphasis on individual action, because this kind of is kind of seen as this like, because though, there was pushback against big oil using the carbon footprint and the idea of individual responsibility to deflect from their own pollution. It's like the media swung the other way. It's like we're not we're only going to focus on taking down companies and governments Right. And, and actually, that's why we we kind of saw this gap and and decided that we wanted to know shift or emphasize more, a little bit more on individual action and what people can do, I suppose, especially because the Bloomberg audience is more affluent live in major cities, you know, have more access to resources that that where they can make individual choices or influence these in these, these systems. So I I actually don't really agree that there is like this surplus of service journalism out there and a lack of, you know, corporate accountability but at the same time, I think how you strike that balance is exactly what you said. It's, it's not writing stories that are like, check out this one cool trick, you know, to whatever. Make make this cool recycling trick or something and and check out this cool new company, but it's about writing actual service journalism, like you want to buy an Eevee here are the tax credits available to you. If you live in the US, like, you want to install homes, or you want you want to switch to a heat pump, right? Like here's how you go about doing it in the UK. You know, I think like that kind of service journalism is actually helpful to people rather than the kind of stuff where I think often in in climate journalism, you'll get a press release that that tries to sell a solution or a story by pointing out something that would potentially be headline grabbing, like, you know, like, Oh, here's how you can make chairs out of cow poop or something. I mean, that's not real but something like that, you know, when when you like, Oh, that's a headline that people would click on because it's funny, and it has, you know, interesting words in it. But, but that's not the kind of solutions journalism that is really going to help anybody, right. Yeah, that's just elevating a startup that has managed to find some kind of quirky angle to sell itself. But actual service journalism would help people decarbonize their lives like people who actually want to make greener choices by laying out in simple terms, what they can do and the steps that they can take to do that. So we do a lot of stories about like if you want to buy an SUV or if you want to install a heat pump, or if you want to get solar panels in your on your roof, like how do you go about doing it and making it specific to the places that people live? And where a lot of our audience are. I think that's one way you strike the balance. And the other way to strike the balance is, you know, just because we read a story, like a review of a Tesla car that would interest people who are interested in buying a Tesla doesn't mean that we also don't do a story, looking at Tesla's emissions and looking at the process of them building their cars and how common sense if that is.

Yeah, I think my question comes from a place of frustration within stories about should you lie on your holiday day to place or I don't know a few years ago, we had a big discussion in Finland about plastic bags, and maybe it's an important topic to have as well, but it's it's kind of like putting a lot of pressure on the individual and then not really talking about what the big structures can do. But it also might be a difference between countries and journalistic cultures that we're having other countries. Also don't have no background in business journalism. So maybe that's what my perspective isn't different

to know. I do agree that those stories are not very helpful. Like I don't think lecturing people and making them feel bad. Like is a successful is a way to, you know, get them to change their minds or change that behavior. But yeah, I mean, in terms of those stories, like Yeah, I don't I don't I mean, we didn't do one day we did one to one story. That was a data visualization project that looked at how disproportionately disproportionate emissions are from the wealthiest one and 10% of the globe. And, I mean, I think that kind of story did send was a good thing to do, because so many of our readers fall into that category, but don't see themselves as the top 10% Right, because they might not be the top 10% in the country, but if they live in a developed country, they are probably in the top 10 10% in the world. But I think a story that says if you fly, you're a horrible person. Like that's not going to convince a lot of people especially some people do need to fly for many reasons.

In short, you see we're not judging you if you're flying home for Christmas, it's absolutely okay. Shall I just you know, we have literally four minutes left but I am keen on switching gears a little bit. You will bureau chief at Beijing and really have a much better sense of that space than we do. I wanted to ask how you're seeing and viewing the protests that are underway, the world is watching. It's not the first time we have seen protests in China, but it is perhaps the first time we've seen it happen on a more united basis. How have you read these developments? Hi, Sharon, can you hear me now? Sharon, just checking if my audio is reaching you.

Know, but not Sharon. No. Oops, looks like we'll have to wind down on that note. Unfortunately, Sharon can't hear us but thank you very much for joining in. Thank you for this conversation for gamely taking all the questions on and I imagine there's a lot of food for thought for everyone who's going back and reporting. You know, we say this ad nauseam and we don't get tired of it. it's not a beat. it's a lens. Think about it no matter what you report on chat and if you can hear us thank you again for joining in, and I'll leave everyone here now, we just saying, be safe, these holidays take care of yourself, be around the people you love, and think about climate.