S11 E5 Maya Chupkov: Advocating for Stuttering Awareness Through Podcasting

5:02PM Oct 11, 2023

Speakers:

Tim Villegas

Maya Chupkov

Keywords:

stuttering

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inclusive education

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Hi friends, I'm Tim vegans from the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education. And you are listening to thinking inclusive, our podcast that brings you conversations about inclusive education and what inclusion looks like the real world

Have I mentioned that I love making podcasts and something else that I love is interviewing podcasters and this week, I want to introduce you to a phenomenal podcaster that is already making waves, not only in the podcast industry, but also with her advocacy waves, you know, like audio waves. Sorry. Maya chip cough is the host of the podcast proud stutter, and a passionate advocate for people who stutter. She is the Media and Democracy Program Manager at California Common Cause were part of her work focuses on supporting local journalism. Maya is dedicated to raising awareness about stuttering and creating a more inclusive society. For individuals who stutter. For this episode, Maya discusses some common misconceptions about people who stutter and her personal experience with stuttering. She shares that people often assume people who stutter are unsure or not confident in what they are saying or that they are shy. However, Maya emphasizes that she is outgoing and not shy despite growing up being labeled as such due to her stutter. Maya also discusses the importance of creating a safe and inclusive environment for individuals who stutter and the need for more education and awareness around stuttering. This week, I'd like to highlight one of the sponsors for our narrative podcast series inclusion stories, communication first, communication first is the only nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting and advancing the civil rights of the more than 5 million children and adults in the United States who due to disability or other condition cannot rely on speech alone, to be heard and understood. Their mission is to protect and advance the rights, autonomy, opportunity and dignity of people with speech related disabilities through public engagement, policy and practice reform and systemic advocacy. Learn more at communication first.org We've got a great conversation for you today that will help all of us to think inclusive, stick around till the end for the mystery question. And for free time. This week, we're giving you the first five minutes of our new podcast series inclusion stories. We'll be back after a quick break.

My chief cough thank you for joining us something conclusive.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Yeah, me too. My and I have gotten to know each other a little bit with various podcasting activities, communities, you know, who have disabled creators in them. And so I'm just really excited to have a, you know, a conversation around stuttering. So, to jump off, why don't you tell our listeners? What are some just common misconceptions about people who stutter?

Yes, so some common misconceptions about stuttering is that we

we don't really know what we're trying to say. Because often our speech there's a lot of pausing and thinking about our words and try not to stutter so that can sometimes come off as you know, we're unsure or not confident.

And also another misconception is that were shy which is probably my my least favorite one because I grew up being called shy because I would shy away from certain social situations because of my stutter. And I feel like for those who really know me know that I'm the opposite of shy and so those are some just very top of mind ones that are coming up right now.

Yeah, so So you are not shy like Well, I don't really know this about you. But you know, either way, but the you would, how would you describe yourself as far as like a person's personality?

Yeah, I would say I'm, I'm very outgoing. I'm a people person I love. Like my fit. My favorite part of my current job is just building relationships with others and really working together towards this solution. And so I'm a very much relationship oriented person. But at the same time, another thing I've realized is that I also because so much of, you know, my podcasting stuff, and my day job is that I'm constantly talking and having to, you know, be in a lot of social situations that I really need my alone time as well. So I would say, the cliche thing that I hear a lot is I'm a extroverted introvert.

I think that is a I think that's a trait among podcasters. That, that, in general, I would also describe myself as, like an extroverted introvert. Very much a people person, love having conversations. There's something about like, a one to one conversation and or like a one to two conversation, but like, when you add a third or fourth person, then I become like, much more quiet. So I don't know if that is the same for you. But

yes, exactly. That's exactly me, actually.

Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah. Sometimes we'll be in like, you know, parties or big groups. And, and, you know, they are just looking at me like, well, you know, what, like, what's going on? What are you thinking? Like, why are you so quiet? Yeah. I just like to, I actually like to listen, I think that's probably one of the reasons why I like podcasting so much to you is because you have this really, like, dedicated time that you're listening to another person. And I just, I just really liked that. So anyways, while I'm thinking of it, you mentioned your day job. I don't know. Is that something that you wanted to share? Like, what you do?

Sure. Yeah, I so I work at California, common cause, which is a good government, nonpartisan, non profit. We're national, but I work for the California team. So my policy area that I do a lot of analysis and, and policy work is around local journalism. And so part of my job is to build coalitions. So we can pass really amazing policies to help support local journalism, which actually has a lot of intersections with with podcasting, because there are a lot of local journalism podcasts out there. And a lot of media people also have have podcasts. And so there's, it's definitely nice to have that overlap.

Yeah. And that, you were, I think common cause was part of the is the California state legislature doing something about Stuttering Awareness? Like, tell us about that?

Yeah, so um, so that was, that was kind of outside my California, the common cause hat. But I did use a lot of the skills that I've learned from like being around policy and comms fields to really take that and really implemented towards stuttering. And so. So yeah, that was completely separate, but very much adjacent to what I do in my day to day job. So it's really nice to kind of be able to build relationships within the California Legislature around not only to democracy issues, but also disability justice issues as well.

Right, right. Was it that they recognized a week of Stuttering Awareness or a day or what was that?

Yeah, so we worked with the future speaker of the assembly, he's getting sworn in on in a few days. And so he We I learned and actually I was partnering with my friend Johnny Pina, who also stutters, he lives in Sacramento. And he's a lobbyist there. So we were able to team up and really get this going. And so we both learned that Assemblymember Robert Rivas stutters himself. And so we thought we could partner with him on California recognizing Stuttering Awareness Week, which is the second week of May every year. And so we did a lot of planning. It took a lot of time and effort, but we were able to get callow for for Nia to officially recognize starting Awareness Week. And we went up to Sacramento and did a press conference and invited a bunch of people who stuttered and also allies within the disability justice movement. And it was just the most amazing experience. And

that's fantastic. Wonderful, wonderful advocacy, really, really grateful for your work. Tell us about the decision to make a podcast, you know, and call it proud stutter. You know, like, what's, why was it important for you to make this podcast? And also, you know, why audio instead of like, you know, Tik Tok, or YouTube or something like that?

You Yeah, I chose podcasting as my medium of choice, because I thought it would be the easiest to just start doing. And so I found so many resources online, and so many groups that are just helping people start podcasts. And so I was like, okay, like, I can do this. And it was really daunting to do it on my own. So I was talking to a few people to kind of see like, Who would want to do it with me. And one of my best friends, Cynthia chin, we decided to take this on together. And so having it be like a team effort really helped me kind of just do it. And so that's why I chose podcasting. Stuttering didn't really come in to the mix until my husband, Kyle. He was thinking it'd be a good topic. And at first I was like, Huh, interesting. And then the more I thought about it, the more I was like, Oh, my God, that would be so cool. But the one issue about it is I've never talked to like, like anyone really about stuttering only like a few people. So I kind of needed to explore that part of myself before I was ready to just share it out with the world. So slowly, slowly, I started talking to more and more people about it. And after each conversation, I just felt so much lighter and more myself than I've ever felt. And so it was really just this. It was beyond podcasting. At that point, it was more about really sharing my authentic self in a way I've never done in my life. Like I, I did therapy throughout my life, like self help with that therapy, and like that's never come up. And that's how deep it was hidden that I wouldn't even talk to my therapist about stuttering. And so it was really just this the perfect combination of like wanting to do a podcast and having this self discovery moment. So yeah,

yeah, so it sounds like it came at the right time for you.

Yes, perfect time.

Yeah. Well, what was your experience? You know, as a stutter. You said, you know, in your therapy sessions, it didn't really come up. So is that something that was really on top of mind for you? Or did you really have you felt like excluded because of your stuttering? Like how, like, what was that like?

Yeah, I think if I really dig down deep, which I've been able to do through this podcasting experience, it's really been its own form of therapy. I am realizing that I was so ashamed of my stutter that I just didn't want to talk about it to anyone because the more I talked about it, the more real it was, the more it was part of my it was part of me and so I did feel a lot of exclusion because of my stuttering, but I just never acknowledged that. But looking back, I definitely was singled out a lot. I in the classroom and jobs, all that stuff. So. So yeah, it's it's been, it wasn't something that I was ready to talk about until very recently.

I remember listening to one of your podcast episodes, I think it was something about the psychology of like the response to stuttering, I'm probably getting that title wrong. But you and your guests mentioned, like, as a stutter, when you're talking to somebody, they get this look. And so I'm wondering if you could explain that a little bit more, because I've certainly had people in my life who stutter. And now I'm wondering, Am I giving that look?

I mean, I'm the cool part of that too. Like, I can tell you that when I see someone that's, let's say, missing arm, like I stare, and it's like, it's something that as soon as I noticed that, that I'm doing I catch myself and I, you know, but like there's, but what I learned through that episode is that our body is set up psychologically, to respond to things that we that are kind of surprising and shocking. It's just a natural response. And so with stuttering, a lot of people when they experience stuttering, for the first time, they there's a look that is given, and it's really just a psychological thing that's happening, that just everyone, that's just what it is. And so the more we're aware of that natural response, I think, the more we can, like help train ourselves not to respond that way. And so it really made me think that I can give people a break when it happens, but also use it as an opportunity to educate. So it's like, there's these two feelings happening at the same time where I'm like, annoyed, but I'm also understanding, and so. So that's really what I learned from that episode. And the look is something that I hear over and over again, that people experience. So it's, it's definitely a very common experience. I think every single person who stutters has experienced it, and will continue to experience it, unfortunately.

What we've talked about, you know, you feeling excluded because of your stuttering or because of the way people have responded to it. But is there been a time where you've really felt included or accepted?

Yes, I am so happy that common cause my work family has accepted me with open arms ever since I started. So that's been the first work place where I feel like, if I stutter, it's not going to be like, Oh, you're not prepared or you need to sound a certain way. Especially like, I'm talking to funders, and I even tell them like, Hey, I used to stutter. And I and I have a lot of like very high stress situations where I have to communicate a certain way. But I've really learned how to be my authentic self and stutter openly while also getting my point across if that makes sense. And not everyone fully understands stuttering, there's only so much educating it can do within a conversation but I've definitely started to like to develop that sweet spot of like, you know, being comfortable sharing.

Yeah. So I have a friend who has Tourette syndrome is something that he mentioned. He's a he's a big advocate for education and in something that he talks about is that it his vocal tics and not only vocal but like physical tics increase under stress. And so does that also happen with with stutters

I wouldn't say it happens with all stutters, but For me, it does definitely, there's been very stressful moments in my life where my stuttering is increased. So I would definitely agree with that. That the more pressure that you put on yourself that often results from stress for me, the more I stutter.

Yeah. And what are some ways to, I guess? Like if you have a stutter in your life, or or you are experiencing that yourself, what are some ways to help with that?

Yeah, I think first and foremost, it's similar to the psychology conversation we were just having is just be aware of your face and how you're reacting to stuttering. Because that can be very triggering for a person who stutters. So that's one and two, just be patient, like let them finish their sentences. That doesn't apply to everyone, because some people that I've spoken with actually like when people help them out with certain words. So it's definitely a spectrum. But for me, I don't like when people try to finish my sentences. So that's two. And then the third one, I would say is, like I like when people ask questions about my stutter. So to just be to acknowledge it is fine, like, but for some certain other people that they're like, just, just don't even just listen. And that's it. But I like talking, I'm more comfortable talking about it. So if people asked me about it, I'm like, Thank you for asking.

Do you have like a question you get the most often?

I wouldn't say a question. But something because I do often pass as fluent because I'm really good at hiding my stutter. So when I, when I tell the people, I have a stutter. They're always, like, a very common response I get is Oh, I haven't heard that. Like, did you overcome it? That's always something that I'm like, I really try to be compassionate understanding. And I don't want to be mean, but sometimes I'm just like, No, I didn't over come in. I like struggle with it every day.

Yeah, yeah. It reminds me of the, you know, we've had guests on and people that I know that are autistic, and they'll say, people say you don't look autistic. So I think there may be some parallels there. But I do want to congratulate you, because I just heard well from you. And you know, from reading press releases and stuff that you are awarded some funding for a documentary series. So I would love for audience to know more about that.

Yes, it's definitely one of the biggest milestones we've had so far. And yeah, so the grant is from the California humanities, which is a very competitive grant. It's part of their documentary documentary. Production a grant, which doesn't go to podcast very often. But I did get the 35k from them to create an audio documentary series on Californians who stutter. And so I'm in the middle of that and how it's going to be structured is the story arc is past, present, and future and each theme is going to be focused on one geographic area of California. And so some of the exam samples of what we're we'll be exploring is Hollywood, which is going to be in the past section. There's this woman, her name is Marion Davies, and she was a silent film actress who stuttered that had to make the transition to sound. So that's one of the episodes. And then we have another one, where it focuses on the history of the stuttering movement, which happened in the Bay Area. So that's just a little sneak peek on sounds amazing, um, the themes, but it's just so fun, like digging into all these stories, seeing which ones just kind of intersect. And it's been really fun. It's a little overwhelming, because I've never done anything like this. But it's a three year grant. So I have a lot of time.

Yeah, and you're gonna need it, which is, which is great, which is great. And what about just in general, like with podcasting, and you know, proud stutter? Like, what are your What are your hopes? What are your dreams? Like? Where do you want to take this?

Yeah, so I definitely want to do more AV. Because see, around policy, to really, you know, make lives easier and safer for people who stutter. And I also want to just educate as many people as possible about stuttering, whether it be through the podcast, through these documentary projects, through speaking engagements at podcasting, con Francis or others like that, I just really want to be in as many spaces as possible, so I can just keep spreading the word. Because it's really sad that we're still living in a world where stuttering is made fun of openly, and no one really says anything about it like, and I think the Disability Justice Movement has come a long way. Where there is that push back, and if anyone says anything about certain disabilities, it's like, immediately you're like, cancelled or whatever. But when you make a stuttering joke in a TV episode, it's a it's still a funny joke.

That's really interesting. Do you mind if I ask? And we can cut this if you want. Like, what, what? What was the thing that made you come out? Or no, I don't like the way that I didn't like, the way that it came out. What was the thing that changed because you said a couple of years ago, you said you began to self identify.

I think it was the first time I ever came out to someone or to a group of people that I that didn't really, that they weren't like my friends, but they were acquaintances that I've been meeting with over like, several years. And it was people that I really respected and looked up to to, and it's people that I really, really cared about what they thought of me. And so I would put on so I, I would never talk about my stutter, because I just thought that was a negative thing that I didn't want out there. And when I opened up to them for the first time about stuttering, that's when that was a lightbulb moment for me because they, they just understood me so much more after that. And these are people that knew me, but didn't really know me. And so it was this realization that I can have these relationships. But really having relationships where I'm totally open about my stutter really just makes it just it really made me feel that I was having these surface level relationships for my whole life because I was hiding such a big part of myself. So that moment really made me realize that I need like, I need to have this feeling more of like, showing who I really am.

No, thank you for sharing that. How can people All who are listening, support what you're doing with pres stutter, or I don't know if you are taking donations for the documentary, like, how can people support your work?

Yeah, so we are going to be starting a crowdfunding campaign for the audio the documentary. But in the meantime, you can go to proud center.com/donate to support the organization. I am still doing my regular, proud stutter episodes while I'm doing this documentary so. So all that support will either go into making more great content for the podcast and the documentary. Another way you can support that involves no money whatsoever. It's just share, share the podcast with like five of your friends and tell them to check it out. So those are my two ways of that you can support the show.

Fantastic. And you did mention a couple people in our conversation. But who else should we be listening to reading? If we want to know more about stuttering?

i So there's one book by Laura Gabriel. It's a biography on Marion Davies. So if you just type in Laura, Gabrielle la Ra, Gabrielle and Marion Davies, it should pop up. So that's one book. And then the other book, which I already mentioned is life on delay by John Hendrickson. I think those two books are a great way to kind of understand the stuttering experience.

Fantastic. And we have a lot of teachers who will listen to think inclusive. So, you know, we, we didn't really get into your school experience. But I would love to know if, if you were able to, you know, talk to them directly. What do you hope educators would take away from this conversation?

Yeah, so we actually interviewed an elementary school teacher who stutters, and she and that episode is like, that really has everything you need to know about how to teach someone who stutters. So I'm happy to share that episode with you. But for the purposes of this interview, I will say, to just dedicate time in the year where it's just you talk about stuttering, like whether it's around starting Awareness Week, or national starting Awareness Day. Just open the conversation to your classes and just say like, Hey, I just, you know, this is stuttering is well, I don't know, but but that would be my recommendation, because if I had a teacher that talked about stuttering in that way, as a young kid, I really think it would have made me feel more comfortable with my stutter. So that would be one of the takeaways that I would have for for that. And I also have bookmarks that have some stuttering how tos on them, so they're free. So if you want me to mail you one or a few, like, that's also a three source that I have

free bookmarks. Yes. That's amazing. Is that on your website? Or does somebody have to email you? Or how's that work?

So it's not currently something I like, share out for everyone. But, but since we are talking about the teachers, like, it's just a great way so you can email me at info at proud saturday.com and I can send you a few.

Okay, oh, yeah, hopefully you're not gonna get 100 emails, but, you know, we do want people to at least listen and share proud star especially if you're an educator. So thank you for sharing that. Coming up. Next, the mystery question.

Are you up for a mystery question? Maya? Yes. Okay, so I have a stack of cards there from pod decks. And I pick a random question and then we both answer it. So it's super easy. Are you ready?

Yes, I'm ready.

Okay, here we go. Were you ever really passionate about something and then suddenly lost interest? If so, what was it?

Wow, that is an amazing question.

That isn't an amazing quiz. Do you want me to go first? Yes. Okay. The only thing that comes to mind right now, I think there's a number of things that I could say, but I'm gonna say baseball cards. Okay. So when I was in middle school, my uncle, he was like a stockbroker. I'm gonna get some of these details wrong, because it was a long time ago. But like, because like he was in like, in investments and stuff, like he would go in, like, buy baseball cards, but like, not just like packs of baseball cards, like individual cards of the same person, just 100 of them. And like, because he, you know, as an investment or whatever. And so I would go with him to these baseball card conventions in my hometown, and like, I would have my stack of baseball cards in like little sleeves. And I'd go around, I tried to sell cards, and I tried to, you know, buy cards. And like, I think, through, I guess, his influence, I was like, always thinking about how much this card is worth, you know, and how much, you know, how much is my collection worth, you know, and I'm pretty sure I at one point, cataloged all my cards at one point in like this database. It was like, so nerdy. Oh, my gosh, and I spent so many hours doing it. And I literally have zero baseball cards right now. Like none. They're all gone. I sold them all.

Oh, wow.

So that's probably one because I was so into that. So into that. Yeah. What about you?

Okay, so this is probably not as good as your answer. But the thing that comes to mind is I was a very competitive volleyball player when I was young, like 12 and 11. I went to the Junior Olympics in volleyball, which is like, wow, yeah, it was very intense. And I was so indebted to it. And I wanted to, like, go all the way, you know, I just, that was like, my dream. And then after my second season of like, club and going to the Junior Olympics, I was just so exhausted. And I felt like I was just missing out on so much, because everything was volleyball, like, I would go to practice twice a week, and I'd miss out on a bunch of stuff with friends. And, and so I just realized after I was 13, like, I'm like, I need like, these are like, my, like, and so I just realized after those two years that I just, I could I wanted to do more with my life than volleyball. So I went from like, doing it and having this dream to just being like, I just want to be a kid, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. That's so that's so real. You know? You know, and that happens sometimes it's like, you're like, I'm done with this.

Yeah. And now I play. Now I play in like a league every week. And it's like, I still have volleyball, but it's just so much more fun.

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, that's great. I'm glad you're still doing it. Yeah, so you still have that outlet? That's awesome. My tube cough thank you so much for being on the thing conclusive podcast. We really appreciate it.

Thank you. This was fun.

That chime means it's free time. Inclusion stories is MCIE is new near DivX podcast series about families and school districts fully committed to inclusive practices for each and every learner. Please enjoy the first five minutes of chapter one. And after you listen to the episode search for inclusion stories in your favorite podcast player to follow or subscribe, or you can just click on the link in the show notes. Here we go. If you ever want to feel old, hanging out with eight and nine year olds, they have limitless energy

Cabo Cabo.

That's Natalia and her sister singing into the microphones, I just set up in the Shands living room slash kitchen. You'll meet them in a minute. It's mid August, in Georgia, and if he knew anything about the South, it's humid, and school is starting for many kids in the area. But what you may not know about public schools in the south, and across the United States, is that there are two educational systems, general education and special education. Now, not everyone is going to explain it like this. But this is the reality. For the vast majority of students. I should know I was a special education teacher for 16 years and spent over a decade teaching in segregated disability specific classrooms. I saw firsthand how inequitable our school systems are regarding learners with disabilities. But if you don't already have personal experience with special education, you may not realize why segregating students with disabilities in separate classrooms is a problem. I'm Tim Vegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education and you are listening to inclusion stories, our podcast series that tells the stories of families educators and school systems on their journey to full and authentic inclusive education for each and every learner.

Turned out hold me back on a buy. Hold on the hammer Bama.

Call you chapter one. It is a long story. It's the last few days of the 2022 school year, and I'm waiting for my daughter to come home on the bus. A warm spring breeze is in the air in the promise of summer is right around the corner for my daughter, and for nearly everyone in our neighborhood since the first day of kindergarten, there has never been a question where they will go to elementary school. It's the one closest to our house, practically across the street. But for most families who have children who receive special education services to support disabilities like autism or an intellectual disability, the question of where they will go to school is not so straightforward. Many times the location of the school and what kind of classroom a child is educated in, or even the bus they ride is based on the characteristics of their disability, which is why some families have gone to extreme lengths to have their child included in their home school with their peers that don't have any disabilities. But first a why should you or I care about inclusive education? What does inclusive education mean anyway? And how does a school or district become inclusive? I promise we are going to get to all of that in this series. But right now I want to talk about why inclusive education is important. And in my opinion, there are three main reasons. The first is that it's the law. There is an education law called the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. And it says a few really interesting things. And here's some of them. That a learner with a disability should be educated in the same classroom as they would if they didn't have a disability. That special education is a service not a place, and that special services should go to the learner, not the other way around. And if the learner needs modifications to their lessons like changing it, so it's more accessible to them, this should not be a reason to remove them from a general education classroom. The second is the overwhelming amount of research that shows that inclusive education benefits everyone. I mean, I could fill up a whole podcast series just talking about the research. But here is the only finding that you really need to know right now. According to a report published by the National Council on Disability, the opportunity for students to participate in their neighborhood school alongside their peers without disabilities, is influenced more by the zip code in which they live their race and disability label, then by meeting the federal law defining how student placements should be made. And finally, and this one is real simple. It's the right thing to do y'all. Just hold on to that thought for a second. After a short break, I introduce you to a family that was so desperate to have their child included. They did something drastic.

For more information about inclusive education, or to learn how you can partner with MCIE on school transformation, or professional learning opportunities, visit MCIE.org. Thanks again to communication first, for being one of our amazing sponsors for inclusion stories. We could have not done this project without you love thinking cluesive Here are a few ways to let us know, rate us on Spotify or leave us a review on Apple podcasts become a patron for extra stuff. In our bonus clip this week, my and I talked about an article in The Atlantic about President Joe Biden and his stuttering, a book written by a person who stutters and what it is like to come out as a person who stutters it's all included if you were a patron, but if you are not, why don't you join these fine people? Thank you to Carol Q. Aaron P. Jarrett T joiner a Cathy V. Mark C. Gabby M. Kathleen T. And Paulette W. We appreciate your continued support of thinking inclusive, thinking cluesive is written, edited, designed, mixed and mastered by me to Vegas, Original Music by miles credit. Additional music from melody. Thanks for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works. Well, cool. That was fun. That was fun. Thanks pod decks. Not a sponsor, but hey,

oh, yeah. Oh my gosh, they should sponsor you.

I think I'm gonna I think I'm gonna ask, I think I'm just gonna send an email. I'm like, listen, I I'm repping your stuff every single episode here. So

I asked for sponsorships all the time. And I haven't gotten one yet, but I'm still gonna ask Hey,

all they can say is no right. Exactly. Exactly. There you go. All right. I'm gonna sign us off but but don't don't go anywhere. MCIE