recording in progress. Thank you. We are going to reconvene our recess for another interview the position of chief investigator. I see that Mr. Tipton is on the line. Mr. Tipton we up the candidate. Online. Do we love the candidate? Yes
I'm here we are pastors row Warfield senior
as well.
So if you could provide the introduction and then do what you do, we will care this
person Warfield My name is John and recruiting here with the city, Detroit. Welcome to the interview.
Well, thank you, sir. Good to be here.
Thank you in front of us, excuse me on his own here we have our honorable border police commissioners as well. We have about six questions that we're going to ask you or so questions two through six will be situational. So we just wanted you to give us a specific situation. The tasks you had to take on the action you took toward that test and then the end result when giving you a response. Once the board introduces themselves, I will give you a brief overview of the position and then we'll jump right into the q&a. Sounds good. Thank you.
Thank you, sir. Mr. Ferguson. Go
ahead. Interrupt. Yes.
Good afternoon. Good afternoon, sir.
Good afternoon Chair Ferguson. How
are you? Pretty good. Hello,
my name is Brian purchasing chairperson of the board of police commissioners and I represent district
one. Good afternoon.
Is it Robin Warfield?
Yes, ma'am. You can call me Reverend Warfield. It doesn't matter.
Okay, thank you for that. I am border police commissioner.
Any Holt vice chair at large.
How are you sir? This is Fernandez. I am an appointed Commissioner on the board of police and as a point of clarity. This obviously is not the full body. It's just the personal training committee otherwise known as HR and I'm the chairperson of
this committee.
Great. Thank you so glad we're gonna try Linda Barnard district to welcome to this process. Thank you. Greetings How you doing? I'm Pastor Jerome Warfield Willie Burton represent district five. Thank you.
Honorable Jerome Warfield.
listeners. I'll go here with a job description for the chief investigator under general direction least a day to day operations of the Office of the Chief Investigator to enhance his overall effectiveness in the delivery of oversight services and initiative and alignment with the city charter and the border police commissioners bylaws. supervise all OCI employees in the performance of their duties in accordance with the city charter and the board's bylaws itself reviews and evaluates all complaint investigations concerning the operations of the police department to ensure that the board members perform their duties as outlined in the city charter. That is the brief description of the position. Commissioner Hernandez I'll turn it over to you sir.
Thank you, sir, for that introduction of welcome. Thank you, sir, for obviously having interest and applying to serve the city, the citizens of Detroit or are delighted to have you here in front of us. I will give just a very brief context you may or may not obviously be aware. The role of chief investigators part of the board of police commissioner's staff is one of the key roles that allows us to ensure accountability and oversight of the police department is executed on executed on and obviously in a way with integrity and process and quality. As you might know, as well as a point of clarification that we've been providing all candidates during this process. The board secretary, along with the chief investigator are the top two, what we consider to be executive level positions on our team. BOARD SECRETARY again, as you may know, is maybe not properly titled but it is properly titled based on city charter and that's why we call it that. But it is very far from an administrative capacity owners. We consider it to be and I'm again quoting this Bernard earlier and saying that the board secretary is our executive director or maybe CEO of a nonprofit, etc. So just so that you have that level of context, in case you didn't, and just so that you know the position that you've applied for chief investigator is one of the most critical positions that we have. So with that, we're going to run through a series of questions the committee will, at the conclusion of that portion will allow you to ask the board questions in return. There's the 40 minute interview. And before we get started, do you have any clarifying questions about process or anything otherwise?
No, not at this point. I mean, obviously, toward the end, I want to talk about how does the process move forward and how soon are you looking to fill the position if you feel comfortable? Answering that now you can Oh, we can just wait towards the end.
Absolutely. Yeah, we can wait toward the end. Okay. So with that we'll get this process started. The first question is coming from me. We're doing these interviews based on categories or dimensions that we're calling them. So the first dimension is around technical experience. And the question is as follows. Please briefly explain how your previous experience and or education have prepared you for this position. Please explain, in your experience, any qualifications, knowledge of investigations, police misconduct, civilian oversight. database management, data analysis, metrics, anything that's relevant to the responsibilities of this position that your background might fulfill.
Sure, and let
me say this before I answer that question, I do want to thank you all for the opportunity to interview. It means a great deal to me that I have the opportunity to sit before you today. So thank you from the very bottom of my heart, going into my technical experience as relates to my qualifications for the job of chief investigator. As some of you have read in my resume, you can tell that as a member of the Detroit Police Commission as chairman of the board at the time. It I actually headed up the team to restructure the Office of Chief investigation at that point of time, back in 2009. The Office of Chief investigation was pretty much an appointees landing spot. So if you worked on the mayor's campaign that's what you landed as a favor. Once the federal monitors came in, in 2009, they came in the same time I did. These were the this was the new team of monitors under at that at that particular time Chief of Police Warren Evans and under Chairman of the Board Ron Griffin, we decided at that point, we got to change this and make the charter work like it's supposed to and re right size that office. So we at that time begin to look at the structure of the office. We looked at the investigators the qualifications, their requisites, what they bring to the table, we began to meet with them because we were behind the wheel, there was a significant backlog. And so we had to go into the database at that time, we had to go and restructure the database and determine how do we delineate from those cases that are critical versus those cases that are not and how do we are sure this in a in a in a good manner and how do we make sure we have the right people in the right positions during the right jobs. And so all of that was going on and so we working on along with the federal monitors at the time and our staff and at that time, we only had two people, secretary and our legal staff is who we working within the five of us and so we just make sure that we tried to link people's qualifications up to get the job done. And we relied on Warren Evans at the time was the chief of police and other members of the department to help us get through that period. And so we came up with a plan not only a database plan, but we also came up with a bat backlog plan. As a matter of fact, I still have a copy. This is the actual the case management plan that we came up with back in that day. This is our actual document that we came up with. And then we also came up with the backlog reduction plan which is this plan right here that we came up with to make sure that we deal with the backlog so I've I've dealt with OCI issues since 2010 2009 2010. In my previous job as a parole board member, that's all I did. was handled cases, we handled up to about 150 cases a day each, each individual parole board member and over 10 of us. We did about I'm sorry, not a day a week, about 150 cases a week is what we handled. And it was our job to make sure that from a database standpoint, from a technical standpoint, that we were able to go into systems we learned systems glean the information out of that out of those systems and apply it to appropriate cases. And I'll stop right there hoping that I answered the question.
Yeah, I appreciate thorough answer. Question number two will be Miss Bernard, which
is
Mr. The question relates to what are the best practices and emerging trends that you would use to employ with the investigation standards to comport with national best practices and recommendations regarding civilian oversight and police misconduct investigations.
Thank you commission over an hour for that
question. So it's gonna sound a little off off track, but allow me to explain. The first best practice is to make sure that the culture is right. If the culture is not right, nothing else matters. One of the reasons that DPD was under a consent decree and OCI was under a consent decree was that the culture was wrong. And because this culture had festered itself into a cancer that almost ate itself ate the department itself alive, we have to change the culture. So before we start any best practices, we have to first of all make sure that the culture in which we operate has to be right and so what is that cultures is the next question. So the culture has to be one of integrity. It has to be one of honesty. And it has to be one that is open and inclusive. integrity, honesty, openness and inclusive and there can be no wavering on that integrity. Every member of the team has to understand what the foundational principles that we all operate from when I had to go and meet for the first time with the entire office of the Office of Chief Investigator. I made sure that they understood that this time is critical that some of you might not make it through this examination period that we're about to take you through and the stage because we are changing the ship and we're shifting to a culture that is accountable to the taxpayers. And so, going down to the best practices for investigators, I think the best PRAK practice is having open and honest communication and be able to communicate openly and honestly not only with your immediate supervisors, but with the supervisors of your supervisors and with others. So that's one thing. Another best practice is to employ technology to employ technological advances to make sure that your investigators are getting the most bang out of the buck for the hours that they're spending in that day, and to make sure that the citizens of the city of Detroit have technology available to them so that they can file complaints is, you know, I'm interested in looking into a system where people can file complaints by web app. How come we don't have that in the city of Detroit, where as soon as you can go on the app and file a complaint? It goes on in Oakland. California already so so that capability is there. Another best practice is is is one that and this is critical to make sure that you have the right people, you recruit the right people to do the right things. He was my philosophy back in the day. My philosophy is I need people who are curious, I need people who are excellent writers. And I need people who does who do not mind going into detail. If I can get people who have those three characteristics and qualifications, then I can train them how to be an investigator, but it's hard to teach people how to write who don't know how to write. It's hard to get people to understand that there's serious technical writing that needs to be done as an investigator. Those investigators at OCR are technical writers. As a matter of fact, there have been times when their cases have ended up in court and on the witness stand, they had to validate their findings. And most of them Thank God were able to do that. A few were not because they missed some steps. So those are some of the best practices. Commissioner Bernard that I see are critical. Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is number three, and that will be for Commissioner Burton. Although he has been abstaining from asking questions to other candidates. What would you like to do, sir? Thank you,
Mr. Chair. For calling on me.
I'm going to
I'm going to abstain because this process today is believes that to be fair, we have not reviewed all the applicants that apply for these positions as well as the statements that commissioners have in front of the in front of us. These statements were not made by individual Commissioners that sit at this table as well as I understand there's a lot of people that apply for both positions and we have not seen all of their resumes, nor have we see. We haven't even seen there's a lot of people that apply for positions. We have not seen that resumes or we haven't even seen their names but they are reaching out saying that they apply for positions secretary and bores Chief Investigator I did put a motion out there for this body to postpone postpone only me to the next meeting. Postpone the process until we get the full list of applicants that apply for all positions. And and I believe it needs to be more than just one name. Going before the full board. It needs to be three names or so go on before the full board. So commissioners can be able to choose wisely and make the you know, and so I'm going to abstain because this process is not there.
Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Go ahead and ask you a question which was provided to us throughout this HR process by city HR, which is in protocol with best practices and and everything else that follows suit with this and we're not going to delay this process because this process has been delayed for close to three years. That's inappropriate. So the fourth question that I'll ask is around building and maintaining relationships. What strategies have you implemented to increase morale and engagement to create a dynamic team environment while maintaining high quality and efficient workforce? So think about strategies you've implemented in the past. Think about those examples and how you measured success.
Great, thank you Commissioner Hernandez. And I'll just stick with when we reconstituted the Office of Chief Investigator. There was a great deal of mistrust on behalf of the citizens of the city of the city of the citizens of the city and on behalf of the staff because the efficiency and the effectiveness of what they did was not where it should have been. So even from a federal standpoint, because we were I was also in federal court with Judge cook at the time. There was misgivings there as well. So how did we go about re establishing those relationships? It started first for me, with the staff and letting the staff know that I am accountable to you. That whatever issues you have, you have whatever training you have whatever questions you have, if you are afraid to go to your immediate supervisor, you can come to me I gave them all my cell phone number. Then I went to the public and let the public know that we are undergoing a reconstitution of our office. And so we asked for them to be patient. And every week we gave updates every week. We gave updates of our progress. We gave updates and when we may not have hit the targets that we did, but we gave them reason. reasons as to why that was the case. But we kept them fully informed and engage. And when someone came to our meeting to complain, whether we thought their complaint was valid or not all complaints, we treat it as if they were of the utmost importance. We never laughed at each anyone who had a complaint. We never just cuffed him up. We treated them with respect and I think as a result of that, the Office of Chief investigation and those investigators receive the respect from the community and the acknowledgement from the community that their voices were being were being heard, but But there's another leg to that stool. Also the police officers we were fair with the officers, those who were said they were guilty and not and vice versa. And so we made sure that we reengage the community, we reengage the the investigators and we re engage DPD to let them know we're not out here trying to do gotcha stuff. But there are some things that we have to follow up on.
So reengagement. Perfect,
thank you, sir. Question for OPM. is hope.
Okay, thank you Chair. Pushing for big six.
Thank you. Thank you, Pastor Warfield again for participating in this interview for Detroit. Board of police. Commissioners, chief investigator. As I pose this question, I look forward to the thorough answers that you've given previously, describe the state systematically and inspires change. Describe your view of a 21st century civilian oversight agency and tell us what efforts would you take to employ emerging trends and best practices toward improved investigative standards, oversight measures and initiatives?
Okay. Thank you for the question of a shareholder I hope I can hit all those. As it relates to my view of a 21st century oversight. You got to first of all know the history and you got to understand that those communities like Washington, DC, Philadelphia, New York, St. Louis, who had Commission's Back in the early 40s, is when this all started, they were pretty much headed up by sworn police officers. And they never really worked out because the badge always default to the badge. And so when the federal monitors were here, and we were doing our backlog cases, I kind of had that mindset as well. Why not hire more retired police officers to help us with these cases. These were two retired police chiefs. And both of them said, do not do that because the badge of always default to the badge. You hire people who have never been sworn as a police officer because they are not tainted by having that camaraderie of the bat. So a 21st century 21st century oversight is a strictly civilian oversight with no sworn officers. However, it is. It is also one that's made up of people from the community in which they serve. Because how can I how can I relate to something if I live, let's say a couple hours away, and that's not my community, right? So you want somebody who has who has skin in the game sort of speak, you want someone who understands the plight, the history and the culture of the city and the people and then another 20 another aspect of a 21st century police oversight board is that you give them the ability to do investigations. My humble opinion is that there needs to be some accreditation for our people. If we had, let's say what happened in Tennessee. If we have what happened in minutes that this happened in Detroit, our investigators should be able to investigate that from a policy standpoint, from a from a did the officers here to policy and what was the policy broken? We should not have our hands off of that. Because we're accountable to the citizens of the city of Detroit. And if we're accountable to the citizens of the city, then we need to investigate that case. Not from a criminal standpoint, because we can't do criminal investigations, but at least from a policy standpoint, so a 21st century. Oversight is fully engaged in the community process and it can meet and the community knows that this particular oversight has the bite and has the power to be able to give recommendations to the board so that the board is fully aware of the type of culture that's in the department that's currently those officers who are coming up from fourth promotions. The investigators need to tell you all these are frequent fliers. These are the ones you need to watch out for. And for the ones who have done an excellent job. The investigators need to tell the board these are the ones who are excellent. They have done the job. We've seen that working and they do well. So a 21st century citizen over oversight board is one that is inclusive of several different arms. One, you're able to investigate a multiple facets of crimes or or or the breaking of policy within within DPD to you are very directly accountable to the citizens of Detroit. The citizens have a tie in to you. And then And then thirdly which is something I didn't mention, they want to be a mediation panel. There ought to be a mediation forum where a police officer and a citizen can come together and just talk through whatever that complaint or the issue is, and because nine times out of 10 and I've seen it myself, what happens is the citizens have their worldview, the police officer have their worldview, you get them into a room and start explaining how the day has gone that day and why decisions were made that day. A lot of times people understand I'm sorry, I didn't mean it the way you thought I did and vice versa and things are things are dismissed. Right there on the spot. So there has to be some type of mediation process. I think engaging with the citizens and officers well when it is appropriate. technology and technology I'm certain technology is also a major piece of that to me. Thank you.
Thanks so much for your response.
Thank you. Next question will be Mr. Ferguson. Yes.
This question is going to be on managing complex and we pause
please. We have an echo zoom already has to come up on this and it won't so Excuse the interruption.
I'm so sorry.
Okay, here we go. Okay, this is managing or manages conflict and crisis. All right. All right. Tell us about a time when you had to address a situation when it became hostile and or created a hostile work environment. Yeah. You give me a situation.
Absolutely. I can give you a situation and it goes back to when we had to reconstitute the office. As I said, Everybody didn't make it. And so there were some individuals that we had to put on a performance improvement plan. And the way we handled it is we told them in advance what the standards were moving forward. And when we saw that the person was not meeting that standard, we brought them in, to try and inquire to see what was going on. You know, is it something that we're doing is something you don't have the capacity to do? Tell us talk to us to see how we can help you. And I'll let me let me stop there. I'm gonna take it even further. There was a chief investigator that we hired. And they had experienced something that came from out of town. And we asked them very clearly, are there any issues back at your hometown that will prevent you from doing this job? They said no. Okay. The issues that we knew about, they said it was resolved already. And so there was an article that appeared in that in that in their hometown newspaper, and then appeared in Detroit on town paper, we had to call that individual land. And we said what's going on here? Because we asked you about this and the monitors are right with us. And you gave us this answer, that everything was solved and resolved. And it's not. And so we had to go through the process of directly confronting the issue itself without without discouraging the person, right. So this is the issue. This is not you, but this is the issue that is associated with you. And because we have a standard that we are maintaining Now, unfortunately, we have to let you go.
Because the
credibility and we had checked on it and we had tried to work with the person they didn't want to they didn't want to comply. Now, did it cause an issue with the office? It did? It did prior to us handling it? Because here's what happens when you allow stuff to go unchecked and it just festers. All it does is causes little cancer cells to break out in the office. So my personal my personal way that I've handled conflict or handle issues of controversy, I deal with it directly. And I deal with it honestly, I deal with it openly with compassion and with love but I go direct to the source, because that's the only way I know to deal with and deal with it correctly. I've had to deal had to do that at the church that I'm currently at and my previous church, I had to do it in various office places that I work in people know me they'll say, Warfield will come to you direct, he'll tell you the truth and and he'll tell you the truth in love. And so I think the more that we deal with conflict and things like that directly helps now, I learn something from the emergency manager when the emergency manager was in Detroit. And I've applied this to my life. I asked them how are you gonna fix Detroit? How do you view Detroit because you're new here. He says I see Detroit and this is this is the philosophy I adopted. He says See, Detroit is the patient that comes into the emergency room. And as that patient comes into the emergency room, I know that they have a bleeding problem. My first job is to stop the bleeding. If I look at OCI as a body, right as a body of a person, I look at OCI that says it has a congestive heart failure problem. Because in my humble opinion, the heart of the board of police commissioners is the Office of Chief investigation without the office of chiefs of investigation is just a rubber stamp board because there's no power outside of that. And so my job is to go in and figure out where is this heart in trouble? Is it is it the actual structure? From organizational structure standpoint, do we have issues? Or is it some of the moving chambers that's not opening and closing and working well, so I gotta go and dig down. Into that heart and find out what's holding this thing up and how come it's not functioning like it should? So I'm going straight to the source. And then after I fix the heart, I can fix the other parts of the body as well.
Thank you, sir. Okay. So for us to remain consistent with questions that we've asked every candidate I'm going to ask you one ad hoc question that was inserted in the other candidate interviews, which is why if applicable, why are you wanting to leave the current post? Why are you interested in this position?
Okay.
I'm not interested in leaving my current person at post this past few unity Baptist Church, so I'm very clear with that. As I said, I served in Lansing on the parole board five days a week. Eight to 10 hour days for eight years and was still pastor. So there are systems in place that allows that to happen. And so I can take on this full time responsibility. So the question is, why, why? And so excuse me if this is out of bounds, it's still my baby. It is still my baby. When we reconstituted the Office of Chief investigation, it literally was one of the top running chief investigation offices in the country. We put people in the job we recruited at that time. I hired nine individuals, as investigators, those individual six of them are still there, working after 10 years of working. We know what it takes to make sure that that Office runs. Well. I mean, if you look at it, the main thing that that office has going against it is lack of stability from this standpoint, there has been five chief investigators since 2010. Of those five that has been there. You look at the interim periods, and you had about four or five more years, were interim served in the various positions. And so you have all of this, all of this change and philosophy, this change in tone, this change in culture that comes in and it separates and divides people with that office needs more than anything else is the ability. Most of the folks out there know me, not all most of folk they know me. They understand that I care about them, that I care about the citizens of the city of Detroit, and I care about them doing the job good and doing it right. And that I don't have I don't have any schisms or isms that will prevent them from being very successful in what they do. I love the city of Detroit. I love Detroit. Police Commission, and that's especially love OCR, and I believe that I have the tools I have the requisites I have the qualifications, I have the experience to go in there on day one, no one has to coach me up. I can go on there on day one, and begin the process. As a matter of fact, I came up with a 30 or 60 and a 90 day plan in order to get OCI moving back in the right direction. And so I love OCI. It's not a it's not a it wouldn't be a chore to me. It wouldn't be you know, a hard job. It would be a challenging job, right? But it was it'd be the job challenging job that I know I have a passion
for.
Thank you, sir. That will conclude the questions coming from us. We have a few minutes left as part of this this interview. If there are any questions that you might have for the board, feel free to ask them at this time.
A couple of them you've interviewed a number of people for this job over the years. So you've heard a lot of interviews right. My question to you is why is the position still vacant? But more importantly, what specifically? Are you looking for that you have not seen? In a candidate?
Yeah, I'll take that question. And what I will say and how I will answer the question is ever since I took chairmanship, and quite frankly asked for this CIC the chairmanship of this committee, I've been entirely dedicated to ensuring that we actually build both positions with quality candidates. As you may be aware, and is obviously public, we had two interim individuals who were taking on the responsibilities of both Secretary and chief investigator. I can't necessarily speak to why the processes in the past did not work. But I'm committed to making sure that what I know I can control will make sense and will bring quality candidates to this position and particularly as chief investigator. So I hope that answers your question. If not, I can elaborate more.
No, it does it does. And thank you for that. So if I'm sorry,
involved previously with interviews involving the position of chief investigator, and at that point, I thought that we had found one person that that I'll say would have acclimated and enhance the culture over at OCI. But I don't know we had to start up again. So we've had other opportunities, but this this one is fresh, organized, and very, very, very focused.
Thank you.
One of the questions what couple of questions I'm sorry. If I am hired, what metrics would you use to measure my success?
Great question. You're the second candidate to ask a very similar question, and I'll make an attempt to answer it the same way that answered that previous candidate.
The simple one word is backlog is
doing away with backlogs and setting a process. I think the comment that I made earlier was independent of the person of the person or persons the process should withstand time. If you have a quality process, it will ensure that over time, you have success in that space for us, you know where I couldn't tell you exactly where in the road. We deviated from that however, eliminating the backlog would be metric number one. Number two for this position, would be conducting what I'd consider an audit of, again, you're testing for quality. You're testing primarily for quality you're testing for strength of process. And ultimately, you're going to test for any discrepancies that may have come in the past so that you prevent them moving forward. So if we can implement those two pieces kind of in tandem, that would be success for me. That might
go ahead. Okay. Now, and in my example, the more cases I review, the more startled I am. That the the policy of law enforcement members accessing their body worn camera is not necessarily a rule that is sustained, as in the results of some of the recommendations of some of those cases, the inconclusive Nikbakht and conclusiveness really concern me so I would like to see some policy or recommendation that would come. Well, you know, DPD has this policy that was dated 2017 And then there's another special notice that the that OCR shared with me and then to some degree conflict. So I would like to see that OCI is putting together policy data 2017 and allowing that policy really the rule, how they rule on case how do we recommend on cases whereby law enforcement members did not utilize body cam opportunities?
Any other questions we have about I think it's three or four minutes left?
Okay. Yeah, the question I've asked earlier about the process to move forward. So I'll just combine what two questions to one, the process moving forward when you expecting to have someone on board a and Have I answered all the questions that you may have by looking at my resume or the questions that you have asked me Is there anything outstanding that need to clear up?
Not
on my end, I feel satisfied with with the process and the other very, like
satisfied.
So I will give you again, a recollection of of the process we have in place for both of these positions, but I'll speak more directly to Chief Investigator. As you're probably aware, from the previous posting for this position, we reopened the window in the beginning of January to allow a fresh base of candidates as well as carryover from the past past posting for this position. There was a pre screen that was conducted, which included obviously the content that applicants add to their actual application. If there needed to be any subsequent, you know, review into any other candidates. That process was done by in partnership with city HR law department, which took us to a candidate pool that was pre screened and qualified, which then led to the commissioners from this committee selecting their top two preferred candidates per position. What's happening today is we are doing somewhat of a sprint for both positions, where we're interviewing all the candidates who were selected again, as part of this this interview process. We will deliberate and head into a closed session at the conclusion actually of this interview, deliberate and ultimately provide a recommendation out of this committee. Next Thursday, the 16th of February to the full board. And that's when those two recommendations again, one for for board secretary one for chief investigator will be up for hopefully a vote Thursday. So in terms of onboarding, I don't want to speak on Mr. Simpson's behalf but I know what my expectation is. And the earliest would be onboarding at the end of this month, or be the last Monday of February. However, you know, we understand that transitionally from from current duties and different things and once a contingent offer is provided. There's still background items that need to take place. So at the very earliest end of this month at the very latest Mr. Tipton, correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe one or two weeks after that
all right, again, pasture warfare. Thank you for reaching out to us this afternoon. I believe that concludes our interview for today. I want to thank you all and once the decision has been made by the board, we will be in touch with that candidate.
Thank you all again. I really appreciate the time you wish. Thank you.
At this time, we are in need of a motion to move into.
I will pause email just came in. Just send it to me. My department
okay Could we please mute
recording stopped
I'm recording in progress. We're going to do a 10 minute recess actually right and then reconvene at that time so 10 minutes, according to this watch. We'll we'll do nine minutes at 4pm Exactly what were convenient. Thank you